High head at trot

[star197]

Hi,
This is along the lines of my 'half-halt' post a few days ago. At a walk, Sisko is relaxed and low-headed. When asking for a trot, he immediately raises his head and trots fast. I had asked about half-halts to slow him down and got a lot of helpful replies.

However, whatever practicing I have been doing with what I think is the half-halt, he shortens his neck and raises head to the point that he is very light on his front feet and taking short, choppy steps. I do not have a constant pull or contact but trying to do the squeeze, release, etc.

Do I work with the high-head issue first, before the slowing down part? If so, how do I do that?

[WashingtonBay]

What is the age/breed/condition/training of this horse?

Because I think my first step in the solution to this would be lunging work, over trotting poles and/or using side reins to help build the muscling needed to actually stay rounded when trotting, and stay rounded when carrying weight.

Both of those kind of exercises help do that. Trotting collected with self carriage, while carrying weight takes a particular muscling. It's physically harder to do, so they need to be encouraged to do this. The 'easy way out' is to hollow and carry the rider simply by the tensile strength of the back, and when they do this, the head comes up too.

If it's a well trained and otherwise well conditioned horse, there might be devices I'd recommend that might also help get the horse into a position to build the right muscling under saddle but I'll probably have to endure some forum disagreement if I recommend that. ;)

And finally but not least importantly, no horse can/will remain rounded and collected with a bouncy rider... so without saying so, I'd ask if you are contributing to the hollowing and head-up because he's also rough when he does it and it's making you stiff and out of sync with him.

[Miracle Whip]

I would strongly suggest riding lessons. I have the same issue with my mare and my instructor has shown me the correct seat and what to do when she puts her head up. If my seat is too far forward her trot will be choppy. Its not just the cue itself either, the horse has to understand what a half halt means. You give the cue and then ask for a turn etc and that makes the horse realize, "hey something is going to happen!"

My instructor has helped me GREATLY with communicating with my horse. She can tell me WHY the horse is doing something...and correct it.

Myself, I'd start with some circles...and pay attention to my hands. Sitting deep in the saddle...and being relaxed.

[Reinmaker]

What is the age/breed/condition/training of this horse?


Yeah really need that before proceeding.

[star197]

Wow thanks for the replies so far! Here's what I know about him...

AQHA gelding turned 5 in April, 14.3hh

Has good ground manners, ties, clips, stands for farrier, is barefoot.

Training wise - does not appear to have extensive training under saddle. Was adopted out for past two years, boarded at a stable and only ridden in arena by the kids (was returned to rescue due to financial issues). I don't know if he was ridden English or Western. Rides in smooth snaffle only at this point, kind of plow reins, not soft or very responsive with reins, fair with leg cues. Has a good stop, does not back very well, lopes correct leads in 60 ft round pen. Appears to have training with free lunging in round pen, or is a super fast learner because he has responded to my cues well (changing directions, coming into center when I stop cues, etc.).

Conditioning - was thin when I got him about 6 weeks ago. Had not been worked regularly so not toned. Since he's been here he is worked in round pen for 10-15 minutes, then ridden on roads for 1/2 hour to 45 minutes. He has about an acre of dry lot to wander around in 24/7.

The main reason I got him is for trail riding. He is very level headed and goes out alone daily. We only walk out on the trail at this point.

We just moved into the area, but I would really like to take lessons if we can find someone good.

[star197]

I keep forgetting details to add....

Had apparently not been on hills in his life as he was unsure what to do. We have hills on the back trail so I take him up and down those several times a week. His footing and balance have improved greatly.

[luvs2ride1979]

Because I think my first step in the solution to this would be lunging work, over trotting poles and/or using side reins to help build the muscling needed to actually stay rounded when trotting, and stay rounded when carrying weight.


Yup, what I was going to recommend.

And finally but not least importantly, no horse can/will remain rounded and collected with a bouncy rider... so without saying so, I'd ask if you are contributing to the hollowing and head-up because he's also rough when he does it and it's making you stiff and out of sync with him.

Also a very good point. Saddle fit can contribute to a high head as well. I have found that use a ThinLine saddle pad (http://www.aretesaddlery.com/tack/thinline-pads/cat_15.html) (the 1/4" regular pad, not the "ultra" or combo w/felt or sheepskin pads) over a thin blanket or felt pad really helps my mare relax and maintain roundness under saddle. The ThinLine material helps absorb rider bounce and make the saddle fit more comfortably. I have had similar results with my Skito saddle pads (http://www.aretesaddlery.com/tack/tack/saddle-pads/skito-pads/skito-equalizer-insert-pad/prod_41.html) as well. Both types of foam are truly shock absorbing and very breathable.

A good saddle pad is not an "instant fix", but it can certainly help.

Another issue could be the bit and/or rider hands. Your horse may not like the bit, or his teeth may need to be floated, or your hands might be "noisy", or a combination of those may be going on. What kind of bit do you use? Do you have any videos of you riding? When was the last time his teeth were floated?

[luvs2ride1979]

Can you post a picture of the kind of bit you use? Can you have someone take a video of you riding in the arena?

[WashingtonBay]

Star, do you think your saddle fits well and that you're a comfortable passenger? Because as luvs said, that is a deal breaker to trying to fix the horse's carriage and response if it's not. Can you confirm no saddle issues?


If the horse was thin 6 weeks ago... he's not in good condition and strength, now... I'd start with some lunging with low side reins in a snaffle... little bit at a time. 5 min... release and stretch (you can get soreness and cramps if you dont), 5 more min in the sidereins, working up to 15 min max without some break and release. It's hard work... don't under-estimate it.

On trail... instead of loose rein walking, work on collected walking... head down neck arched and fast driving walk with a lot of impulsion, not just a lackadaisical head up lookie-loo walk. This will also help build strength.

If you can promise to be kind with them, I might suggest draw reins to help achieve this... just know they too, like the side reins, need to be applied with reason and in short doses, with relief and stretching in between.

[palomino]

I agree with the lunging and the side reins- get him flexing and learning to collect, the gaits will come with conditioning and training how to respond to bit pressure.

[star197]

Here's some pics...one of the bit we're using and two of saddle fit. I took a short video with my cell phone and am trying to figure out how to get it on here. WB, I've been told that I have a good seat and quiet hands but maybe they just said that to sell a horse LOL. Sisko does have a bouncy up/down trot though.

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m351/pepstar197/bit.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m351/pepstar197/securedownload-112.jpg

http://i332.photobucket.com/albums/m351/pepstar197/saddlewithpad.jpg

[star197]

Can anyone tell me how to convert a .3gp video from my cell phone to a format I can post on here? thanks

[Reinmaker]

WB I think draw reins are a useful tool, but not in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use them, and they can get you in a bad place in a hurry if the horse overreacts and the rider panics and doesn't release. I know you know this. Just wanted to put it out there since this is open forum and we never know who is watching.

I have no idea of Star's ability to use them or not so this was not pointed at her. One just never knows who is reading and thinks, "oh my horse carries his head high, I will go get some draw reins and see if that helps". I just think draw reins should only be used after someone who is experienced with them shows you how.

So not one of the ones you were worried with disagreeing, but a disclaimer of sorts.

Ok off soap box.

Star you have gotten some good suggestions. Get him lunging and use the side reins or tie him around to get used to giving bit pressure and starting to learn to carry himself better.

When riding teaching him to give his face and collect with the snaffle, sit deep and back and use your leg to drive him up into the bridle and flex at the poll and give his face. Your hands should be about hip width apart, fist closed around the reins so the palms are facing in and your thumbs would be pointing up if you stuck them out(actually my avatar is a pretty good picture of how you want to be). Pull back toward your hip, keeping the elbows and drawing them back. Keep your shoulders back and you can see saw some in that snaffle once contact is made to get that horse to respond and work his face down. I know people act like see sawing is the end of the world, it is not. It is how a snaffle is designed. Just closing and applying steady pressure with both reins collapses that snaffle on his mouth and creates a nut cracker effect. The severity and pressure applied is a feel thing. I just can't convey that through a message board. But don't be afraid to close that door.

If he is head tossing severely to evade a running martingale might be an option. If he is just hollowing out and picking his head up you probably don't need it.

His trot is going to be bouncy and uncomfortable until you get him soft and rounding up. It will also help you to rate his trot.

Let me know if I can explain something better.

[WashingtonBay]

WB I think draw reins are a useful tool, but not in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use them, and they can get you in a bad place in a hurry if the horse overreacts and the rider panics and doesn't release. I know you know this. Just wanted to put it out there since this is open forum and we never know who is watching.

I have no idea of Star's ability to use them or not so this was not pointed at her. One just never knows who is reading and thinks, "oh my horse carries his head high, I will go get some draw reins and see if that helps". I just think draw reins should only be used after someone who is experienced with them shows you how.

So not one of the ones you were worried with disagreeing, but a disclaimer of sorts.

Ok off soap box.

Fair enough and good words of caution about them. :)

They are a powerful tool in the right hands, for developing a carriage that can build the right muscling, but they do have to be used correctly and with kindness.

[luvs2ride1979]

The saddle looks like a decent fit. You might try one of those pads I suggested. ThinLine has a 30-day guarantee, so if it doesn't work for you, you can send it back.

For your bit, I would try something like this:
http://www.adamshorsesupply.com/browse.cfm/4,401.html

It's softer on the mouth, doesn't have any nutcracker effect, and still gives you the good control of a full cheek bit. When putting on the bridle, make sure the bit is in the center of the toothless space in his mouth, not anywhere near any of his teeth. You might ask your vet about wolf teeth. If he has any, have them pulled.

[vicklynn]

Hi,
This is along the lines of my 'half-halt' post a few days ago. At a walk, Sisko is relaxed and low-headed. When asking for a trot, he immediately raises his head and trots fast. I had asked about half-halts to slow him down and got a lot of helpful replies.

However, whatever practicing I have been doing with what I think is the half-halt, he shortens his neck and raises head to the point that he is very light on his front feet and taking short, choppy steps. I do not have a constant pull or contact but trying to do the squeeze, release, etc.

Do I work with the high-head issue first, before the slowing down part? If so, how do I do that?
I would teach him to bend at the poll and drop that head.
Dosnt matter if he is going slow or fast, that poll needs to drop.
I think the other ideas of lunging over the poles, ect are not teaching him to drop that head/neck, which it sounds to me is what he needs.

Do you have a vid of "what you think" your half halt?

[vicklynn]

So I go back and read. Reinmaker and I think alike at times.
Try his suggestion about flexing, or bending, at the poll.
That is taught in the saddle.
Later, when your horse knows the drill and you know how to use side reins while lunging, you may want to try that.

[luvs2ride1979]

I would recommend some Dressage lessons from a Classical Dressage trainer. You can still ride in your western saddle ;). They will help teach you how to effectively communicate with your horse and ask for roundness and collection without making him choppy and on the forehand. If you'll let me know your location, I can see if any good ones are in your area.

For lunging, get elastic side reins or use plain split reins. Attach them to the end of your cinch (rings on each side). Make the inside rein a tad shorter, but both should be a bit loose when you first start out. Ask for walk and trot, with a few strides of canter here and there. As he gets used to them, tighten up the reins. You want to work your way to pretty snug, so he really has to "look" for the right "spot" to have his head. Drive him forward at a good clip, so you really see those hind legs reaching when he's walking and trotting. Work both side evenly.

Start with just a short 10 minute lesson, 3 days on, 2 days off, 2 days on, 1 day off, 1 day on, 1 day off, repeat. After this first run, next repeat go up to 15 minutes for a run, then the next one at 20 minutes. I don't like to lunge more than 20 minutes a time. Always start with some warm up at all gaits in both directions with the side reins loose. Once he's used to them, you should only need to tighten once, to snug. Break up the workouts with lots of transitions, transitions within the gait (slower then faster trot or walk), and no more than 3 circles of canter at any one time (cantering on a lunge is hard on the joints and muscles).

After a month or two, you should see some real topline development (neck and back) and you should see some improvement under saddle. If you're taking Dressage lessons, your instructor can help you with lunging and use your saddle time to build on your lunging work.

[vicklynn]

I would recommend some Dressage lessons from a Classical Dressage trainer. You can still ride in your western saddle ;). They will help teach you how to effectively communicate with your horse and ask for roundness and collection without making him choppy and on the forehand. If you'll let me know your location, I can see if any good ones are in your area.


Not to argue this, but a good western trainer knows how to do this.

[luvs2ride1979]

I agree on using suppling exercises in the saddle and on the ground to teach him to bend and flex his neck both directions, head side to side and down, and flex his whole body.

Some good work to do before your ride:
http://www.kbrhorse.net/hea/spine01.html
http://www.kbrhorse.net/hea/spine02.html

Some good articles:
http://www.rocknhranch.com/new_images/articles/SupplingWesternHorse.pdf
http://www.arlyndecicco.com/stretchsupplestrengthen.html
http://www.lesvogt.com/training_articles/suppling_your_horse.html

Also, to improve your seat, read the three articles on this page on "seat." They really helped me and I thought I had a pretty quiet seat to start with ;). There are also some good articles on lunging, though no photos.
http://www.gfdressage.com/articles.html

[luvs2ride1979]

Not to argue this, but a good western trainer knows how to do this.

In Southern California, a Dressage trainer may be easier to find than a good western trainer ;) (one more than just a backyard hack). And Dressage training will be a bit more "complete" IME, with more attention paid to forward and round, rather than slow and low. Once a horse achieves forward and round, then slow and low becomes easy.

My Dressage-trained horse can out-slow most of my friend's WP horses, and still actually look like she's trotting :cool:. She was only trained through Training Level with some 1st level work, so she's not what I would consider a "Dressage horse", plus she's a fat Appy/QH, so she doesn't naturally have that dressage-look or movement, lol. However, the Dressage training we did has proven invaluable for her work as a western horse, trail horse, and a Hunter US and OF horse.

[Reinmaker]

Not to argue this, but a good western trainer knows how to do this.

You know we love to joke that our horses can do anything a dressage horse can, only ours do it at 3 years old on a loose a rein.:);)

Point being you are right. Our horses have to be collected, have supreme body control, be very supple in the face and be elevated and light in their shoulders to do any of the manuevers we ask them to do in a reining pattern.

[natisha]

I have a Saddlebred boarded here that I foolishly thought I could get to lower his head. At a walk yes, jog-kind of . Anything faster no way. He is light, lots of impulsion, collected, flexed at the poll but I still can't see over his head.
I know this has nothing to do with the discussion of the OP's horse, "just sayin"- to quote WB :)

[vicklynn]

You know we love to joke that our horses can do anything a dressage horse can, only ours do it at 3 years old on a loose a rein.:);)

Point being you are right. Our horses have to be collected, have supreme body control, be very supple in the face and be elevated and light in their shoulders to do any of the manuevers we ask them to do in a reining pattern.
Ya, you remember the video where the cowboy and dressage guy rode horses, then switched.
Reining pattern and more really though.
I think your avitar shows alot of control in the horse.
Head low, loose rein, and from what I can see, looks very balanced.
Wanna come train City? Id hire ya. I even have a spare room.

[natisha]

I even have a spare room. :eek: :nono:

[Reinmaker]

Ya, you remember the video where the cowboy and dressage guy rode horses, then switched.
Reining pattern and more really though.
I think your avitar shows alot of control in the horse.
Head low, loose rein, and from what I can see, looks very balanced.
Wanna come train City? Id hire ya. I even have a spare room.

HAHA, Thanks, I'd be happy to work with city, but I think you'd have to send him here.:)

I have seen that video. Great stuff.

On the horse in my avatar, he can easily go in one hand, with a draped rein, and he will carry his head lower than that(level with his withers). I was warming him up there and went to two hands to soften him up a bit and get his shoulder stood up. Just slightly tweaking and reminding him.

[cowgirlup@idaho]

And Dressage training will be a bit more "complete" IME, with more attention paid to forward and round, rather than slow and low.

I learned 'collection' in a western saddle by a Monte Foreman trained clinician. I could collect my horse at all speeds, we called it rating. I didn't learn to 'slow and low' because that is the "western pleasure" way of going in a show ring, not for other purposes of riding that I'm aware of. Don't get me wrong, I love dressage and I appreciate what that rider and horse are doing, but the kind of training you are suggesting is no more "complete" than western training. :cowboy:

[vicklynn]

:eek: :nono:
I ment that in the most honorable way. He stay here while hes training City.
In his OWN room. Gesh, I am married and respectful to my husband.
LOL

[WashingtonBay]

I think it's Natisha who rarely has honorable intentions... ;)

[luvs2ride1979]

You know we love to joke that our horses can do anything a dressage horse can, only ours do it at 3 years old on a loose a rein.:);)

Point being you are right. Our horses have to be collected, have supreme body control, be very supple in the face and be elevated and light in their shoulders to do any of the manuevers we ask them to do in a reining pattern.

Very true. I have a lot of respect for good reining trainers. ;)

[star197]

Thank you thank you everyone! I have been poring over your replies and appreciate the feedback.

Reinmaker, I totally understand your comments about the draw reins and did not take it personally:). As a matter of fact, I know myself well enough to know that I do not have the expertise to try certain things just because I read it on the internet or saw a video of it. However, with that being said, I am really interested in trying the side reins - thank you luvs2ride and WB for the suggestion & descriptions. I will look around for videos of it.

VL - I am still trying to figure out how to get the ".3pg" video format from my cell phone converted into something I can post online.

luvs2ride - thank you so much for the article links! I';ll pm you with the info about where we live. Since you are familiar with the area you may know who I can contact for lessons.

[natisha]

I think it's Natisha who rarely has honorable intentions... ;) Who me? :innocent:
sings..... 'I'm gonna git me a :cowboy: & ride, ride ride'

[magayle]

Who me? :innocent:
sings..... 'I'm gonna git me a :cowboy: & ride, ride ride'

you go girl:funnypost:

[vicklynn]

Who me? :innocent:
sings..... 'I'm gonna git me a :cowboy: & ride, ride ride'
hehehehe, wouldnt that be nice!!

[magayle]

hehehehe, wouldnt that be nice!!

she always keeps us dreamin':innocent: