Tips for getting Auda collected?

[zoel_222]

I'm almost afraid to make a thread asking this question..... :eek:

I'm having a hard time getting Auda on the bit. A few months ago we were getting there and I could get her collected most of the time when I asked only we couldn't hold it very long. The longest we ever held it was one lap around the arena. Now when I ask her she raises her head and braces against the bit and then after a ton of fighting I end up only able to get her to soften her mouth again and give to the bit but not actually collect, just basically get her back where we started before I asked. Now that I'm trying to sell I'm sure it wouldn't hurt any if she actually looked a little more like a dressage horse. :D

This is how I've been asking:

I start by getting some impulsion going by giving her a little squeeze with my legs and putting my energy forward if that makes any sense. Then when the energy gets going I sort of catch her in my hands and give a little squeeze on both reins. She used to get right on the bit when I did this, and if she didn't I'd just give another squeeze with the inside rein only and then she'd go.

is this wrong? This is how I trained Chica to get collected and she always complied beautifully. I've been going at this for a month with no success. Help. :(

I'm hoping Reinmaker and TheBadLands will tune in and give me some help. You guys always give outstanding training advice.

[Palogal]

It sounds like you're engaging the forehand but not the back and hips. Lateral work will do some of that. Leg yields, turns on the forehand, head-to-the-wall, things like that will help remind Auda that she does in deed have back legs. Transitions and half-halts will get her up off of the forehand. I'm personally not a big believer in backing, that helps a little if they're really heavy on the forehand. Collection is tough, it's a fully body thing. You can tweak the position of the head with the reins after all of the other things have been addressed if you need to.

[zoel_222]

nobody else?

[Reinmaker]

Sorry I missed this one somehow.

I can't give a full explanation right this minute, but will try to get back to it. I will tell you that this is something that is tough to explain over the interwebs, and even tougher without being able to see what is going on with both rider and horse. Collection takes a lot of feel. The release is as important as the contact. I have some ideas though. I'll get back to this in a bit.

[zoel_222]

Thanks Reinmaker.

[Reinmaker]

Ok well first I think we need to clarify exactly what collection is. The horse needs to transfer weight from front to back, bringing their hindquarters more under them, rounding the back and getting light and soft in the shoulders. I am sure you know this.

Just getting the horse on the bit does not mean they are collected.

Now I train western so we work to achieve a slightly different collected way of going than a dressage horse and by slightly I mean HUGE.:) LOL. I kid, but really the look we are going for and the fact that we are trying to get it on a loose rein means we aren't going to be able to hold the horse back on their hocks when loping around and they aren't going to have as elevated of movement in their front end. We want loose light shoulders, not elevated knees. It takes a lot of muscle for a horse to carry themselves collected and it takes time for them to develope that muscle.


First off you have said that she is not getting on the bit and she is getting stiff and bracing. This needs to be addressed first and foremost. Until she is soft in the face and giving freely to the pressure, and breaking at the poll you are not going to achieve collection. If you add impulsion without the ability to lighten the front end you are just adding speed and pushing the horse on tp their front end.

You need to work on her face and getting her to respect your hands. This is where the release is so important.

Does the horse back? This is a good way to introduce or re-introduce the release. Stop the horse, take and hold their face with the reins and hold. Just hold with steady pressure, the horse will likely brace, push, put their head down, up and basically try to evade. Keep holding until they give to the pressure and step back. Release IMMEDIATELY. Do this a bunch. Pressure, she gives, you release.

Now you can start working on it at a trot. I really don't do it much at the walk because their just isn't enough forward and the horse will tend to stop.

At the trot drive her up in to your hands, hold and if you need to, bump her nose, as soon as she gives release. Then ask again. She should give more and more and hold the "frame" longer and longer. This can take a long time to get properly. I would also work this on circles as it tends to help the horse use themselves more(which is going to help them start to learn to collect as they go), and allows you to use that inside rein to keep the nose slightly bent to the inside.

Now once you have a horse that is soft in the face. You can start working on rating and then collection. Half halts are a form of rating a horse. They are used for aiding in collection because they shorten the stride of the horse that is moving out in the canter. We don't call them half halts but we do the same thing essentially. We run a big fast circle and then slow the horse abruptly in the middle and lope a small slow circle. By bringing the horse back they tend to rock back further on their hocks and shorten their stride if they are light on their forhand and soft in the face.

Again I like using circles. Once I have horse that I can rate, and that is soft in the face I can lift those shoulders with my hand. I can drive them up into my hands with my legs and if needed I can emphasize the outside leg to push their hip slightly to the inside to drive it up further beneath them and force them to use their hind end more.

You are seeming to ask for collection in a decent way, you simply don't have the required tools already in place to achieve the desired result.

A few other things you can do is sidepassing, counter bending, turns on the haunches, and turns on the forehand to get better control of her shoulders and free them up. Remember you have to free up her shoulders and get them light and supple to get true collection.

[zoel_222]

Thank you Reinmaker!

I just got back in from riding her. I did the backing thing as you suggested and it seemed to really help. She *used* to back fine. In fact she used to have a very light mouth all around but lately she has been very resistant. When I first asked she stretched her neck out and braced against the bit, then when she realized that was going nowhere she gave in and backed. After about three more times of this she was fine and backing immediately at the slightest of pressure. We also did a lot of forehand and haunch turns and sidepassing today. She's still learning how to sidepass and today she did better than she ever has. She was incredibly light and was bending and submitting to the bit very well. I didn't ask for any collecting or getting on the bit. We just worked on getting her light and responsive. Thanks for your help, I'll keep following those directions and see if we can get somewhere. :)

[miatapony]

WTG zoel and reinmaker ... great advise and for useing it . good to see things workiong out for you and your mare.

[WashingtonBay]

Agreed, nicely done! This is one of those questions I cringe about because it's not easy to convey in a way that can really be applied, and I thank Reinmaker for conveying it so well!

[Reinmaker]

Glad I could help.

[TheBadLands]

I missed it, sorry. Reinmaker gave very good advice. There are "some" differences and it all depends on your discipline. Dressage horses usually start (at lower levels) all w/t/c "on the buckle and are allowed to stretch and move and release their throat latch before you ask them to engage it. BUT, even though on the buckle, they are expected to move out freely and with a lot of impulsion. Dressage horses are seen from back to front. Not front to back. Gradually shortening of your reins, while driving the horse forward "into the bridle" will accomplish this also. And is a different approach. But both will work. Your discipline is the deciding factor. The horses head will fall into place when the horse is driving himself into the bridle.

We don't do "lock in" frames with dressage horses. Not that it's a bad thing. But it will make a horrible and detrimental training flaw later on if the horse doesn't work off of very soft, meaning pinky moving, soft hands. Not that reinmaker does not have soft hands (I've never asked his wife) :cowboy: but it's a different scenario because the end result in dressage is going to take many more years, and go in a different direction. Not to mention go on and continue to be ridden two handed with the ulimate goal being to exhibit little to no visual aids while testing.

With that being said, the exercise that I find great success with (if you want to cross train or try something else) is an exercise baised on the foot fall of the horses and timing/release.

At the rising trot, on the correct diagonal, ride the rail and pull your horses nose to the inside enough to see an eye lash at each RISE and release at each fall. When the horse softens, then don't nag. But correct when the horses head pops up. It takes a lot of patience and a lot of posting (and burns a lot of calories), but it is the best gait to establish helping the horse use his ENTIRE self. On good contact, this "pulling" of the inside rein should be extremely slight. A matter on turning your wrist with knuckles to your stomache then back again. On a 1,2 count. If you are on the correct diagonal, you should be driving the horse forward with your leg (applying leg while riding). This is the exact moment the horse is stepping into the stride with his inside hind leg. Which will avoid confusing this for a downward transition. You do not want to "block" the horse in a physical state of motion that may shorten a good stride. Otherwise you will have a horse with a pretty head. And the rest of him...not so much.

I give you cookies for the 20 times some of you will read this and think "Wait, what?" lol

[zoel_222]

Thanks for responding, TheBadLands! :D



At the rising trot, on the correct diagonal, ride the rail and pull your horses nose to the inside enough to see an eye lash at each RISE and release at each fall. When the horse softens, then don't nag. But correct when the horses head pops up. It takes a lot of patience and a lot of posting (and burns a lot of calories), but it is the best gait to establish helping the horse use his ENTIRE self. On good contact, this "pulling" of the inside rein should be extremely slight. A matter on turning your wrist with knuckles to your stomache then back again. On a 1,2 count. If you are on the correct diagonal, you should be driving the horse forward with your leg (applying leg while riding). This is the exact moment the horse is stepping into the stride with his inside hind leg. Which will avoid confusing this for a downward transition. You do not want to "block" the horse in a physical state of motion that may shorten a good stride. Otherwise you will have a horse with a pretty head. And the rest of him...not so much.

I give you cookies for the 20 times some of you will read this and think "Wait, what?" lol

Uhh. I'm not sure I fully understand. What if when I pull the rein and she refuses or braces on the bit for the entire rise. Do I still release at the fall and try again at the next rise or do I correct her and make her do it during the next fall. Am I making sense? :confused:


I rode her again today and did a lot of the softening exercises and she did really good. She was very soft and only had a few moments where she resisted at all and that was during sidepassing which she's still learning and I think it was more of confusion and trying to figure out the right thing rather than defiance. I managed to get her collected a few times. She didn't fight me at all when I asked her, but after she got it, she would slowly lose it. What do I do to keep her in it? Sorry for all the questions. Collection is fairly new to me. I've always known what a horse looks like who's using himself properly and not properly, and I know how to get a trained horse to collect, but teaching it is still very tricky for me.

[TheBadLands]

Thanks for responding, TheBadLands! :D



Uhh. I'm not sure I fully understand. What if when I pull the rein and she refuses or braces on the bit for the entire rise. Do I still release at the fall and try again at the next rise or do I correct her and make her do it during the next fall. Am I making sense? :confused:


I rode her again today and did a lot of the softening exercises and she did really good. She was very soft and only had a few moments where she resisted at all and that was during sidepassing which she's still learning and I think it was more of confusion and trying to figure out the right thing rather than defiance. I managed to get her collected a few times. She didn't fight me at all when I asked her, but after she got it, she would slowly lose it. What do I do to keep her in it? Sorry for all the questions. Collection is fairly new to me. I've always known what a horse looks like who's using himself properly and not properly, and I know how to get a trained horse to collect, but teaching it is still very tricky for me.

You make it a rythmical thing.. it's rise, leg, inside rein, fall, rise, leg, inside rein, fall.

They can't brace. You're asking the horse to soften the throat latch while asking the horse to think about the back half of himself at the same time. They can brace when you lock them in a frame and fight for a "head set". They don't need to brace if they are swinging in the back, loose moving and forward. It all falls into place.

[zoel_222]

You make it a rythmical thing.. it's rise, leg, inside rein, fall, rise, leg, inside rein, fall.

They can't brace. You're asking the horse to soften the throat latch while asking the horse to think about the back half of himself at the same time. They can brace when you lock them in a frame and fight for a "head set". They don't need to brace if they are swinging in the back, loose moving and forward. It all falls into place.

Ahhhh. I see. We'll try this tomorrow. Thanks :)

[TheBadLands]

Thanks for considering it. But, remember that trying is always good. But what works is obviously better. And it's SO hard to verbalize or type it. I'm used to showing people lol

[zoel_222]

Thanks for considering it. But, remember that trying is always good. But what works is obviously better. And it's SO hard to verbalize or type it. I'm used to showing people lol

What I wouldn't give to have some lessons with you. *sigh*

[TheBadLands]

Nah I'll just throw you at Susanne and let her scream at you in two different languages :)

[Spyder]

To the OP just remember that each rein has specific functions. It is the outside rein (with correct driving) that will accept and more or less set where the head will be eventually. Its strength and position will be the guiding factor.

The inside rein, while working off the outside rein has a primary duty to set the paramiters of the bend or lateral flexion(with correct driving again). Overuse of this rein will cause problems later down the road and one must be careful the the tendency to pull and release may cause the problem often seen of the head shifting left/right as the horse travels. Due dilligence must be made to keep an eye on the horse's way of going when using the inside rein.

I find the biggest problem most people have when trying to get bend/collection is that they steer like a car and in doing so do not stablize the outside rein enough.

I wrote a complete article on this. I will have to look for it.