raw circles on bottom of belly

[BlaiseGlaze]

my horse has these 2 circles on his belly, could very well be from rubbing himself on the ground. One of them is raw the other one is crusted over. They itch. I have seen him scratching his belly like a dog does on carpet.
They are about the size of a 1/2 dollar coin.
He was wormed last month with ivermectin.
Is this common? uncommon?
Ever see them before?

[BlaiseGlaze]

someone suggested to me that this MAY be an allergic reaction to midges?
possible.

[IrisGreen]

Ringworm, Rain rot, fungus....I have no idea but it could be any of those maybe. I would get some Betadine, mix with water in a spray bottle and spray it several times a day and if it doesn't clear up then you know it's not Bactria or fungal and you can move on to other ideas.

[3equines]

Skin problems are sooo tricky, some of them are simply allergic reactions (which leaves a LOT of guesswork for the cause), some are fungal infections, some are bacterial, some are from parasites.

Hygiene is the best treatment for all of the above, I rule out parasites by dusting for lice, then bathe the horse/cat/dog with a good antimicrobial shampoo like MicroTek, and then treat local areas of infection/inflammation with a topical agent, usually tea tree oil because it is both antifungal and antibacterial. I would allow an open, weeping area to crust over before applying tea tree oild because it can be painful in these places, so an application of the purple spray-on stuff (Wound Kote?) or betadine will help the initial phase of wound healing along.

[BlaiseGlaze]

((big hug)) thanx u guys!
I am going to get betadine in a spray bottle a few times a day for a few days and see what happens by Thursday or Friday.

[3equines]

If topical treatments don't resolve the problem within 2 weeks then you may have an allergic or nutritional issue. Fortunately, fly season is almost over so that can resolve some of the allergic reactions we see in the warm months. There are some vet techs on this Forum (hint hint) who may have better advice on nutrition, but I like to give my horses a balanced vitamin/mineral supplement that doesn't add a lot of extra calories. My preferred brand is Milennium Gold, but there are many similar products. I only have to give my horses 1 or 2 ounces a day for the full dose of vitamin and mineral content.

Vitamins you want to look for in your feed are vitamins A, E, K and the B-complexes, which include biotin and panthenol. Also take into consideration what you are feeding your horse. Take a good look at your pasture and your hay for weeds, most are harmless but some can cause skin problems. Your local state Agriculture Extension Agent (under county listings) will have info on toxic weeds in your region.

Oral antihistamine products are useful in controlling 'bad' allergic outbreaks, but the side-effects of these products warrant caution. I would consult with a vet or veterinary technician before giving oral medications or making any drastic diet changes.

I know of some horses who have seasonal skin allergies, and their owners usually settle for a middle ground: hygiene to prevent secondary infections, medicate to relieve symptoms, protect with fly sheets, but expect there to be a certain amount of breakouts and sores no matter what during the worst times of the year.

[BlaiseGlaze]

After reading the following article, I am going to try the double dose of Equimax, then again in two weeks
:(
Rusty has neck thread worms
He has the symptoms of the underline sores, the balding on the face and chest (from rubbing from irritation), his mane and tail totally suck, and the weepy eye and the mucus in one eye...

Neck Threadworms (Onchocera) (Microfilariae)
Ask your vet: Through my research for HorseHints, I found that horses with uveitis or neck threadworms (Onchocera, Microfilariae), should probably not have the rhino/flu shot. The shot has been shown to cause flare-ups of uveitis in some of these horses. Horses who have onchocera that has traveled to the eyes are definitely at risk for flare-ups. Therefore, we do not give my husband's horse, Rusty, the Rhino/Flu shot. We have weighed the risks and decided since we do not show or compete with our horses, and since we are in a stable boarding environment with only 3 horses, it is not necessary. If there is an outbreak in our area then we may revisit this decision.
I have had two horses with Onchocera. It is often misdiagnosed because many vets have not seen it. My husband and I purchase 2 year olds and then proceed to do our own training and handling, etc. A vet check will not pick this up because it does not usually show signs until later (arorund 2 years of age). You will see several types of symptoms. The horse will get summer sores or bumps along their top and bottom lines. These are caused by the dead worms. Sometimes the bumps will break and infect. The horse will often rub his bottom line along the ground rocking back and forth because of irritation. You might see large losses of hair on the horse's body. Also, the mane and tail hairs break off and can get quite nasty looking. Along the back neck line where the mane attaches, you can feel indentations in a tidy row down the horse's neck line. The neck threadworms migrate to this area and die. This is what you are feeling. Sometimes the Onchocera gets off its usual path to the top and bottom line of the horse, and travel to the eyes instead. We have had both happen. The horse tends to rub his head on everything because of the irritation. "The most common parasite connected with uveitis is onchocerca. Culicoides, a biting midge of the Ceiatopogonidae family, is believed to be the primary transmitter. The adult lives in the connective tissue of the horse's neck and the microfilariae travel throughout the body. The most common signs of it are sores breaking out on the midline of the horse's stomach, base of the mane and withers and uveitis in the horse's eye(s) (French, 1988). Uveitis occurs when there are large quantities of dead microfilariae in the eye. Normally the eye can handle the live ones but the dead give off large amounts of antigens and these cause inflammation in the eye (Schwink, op cit p. 560). Ironically for horse owners, onchocerca can sometimes first be identified by the onset of symptoms following worming with ivermectin. This is one drug that will effectively kill off the young microfilariae, but at the same time by doing its job it can initiate uveitis if a large quantity of the microfilariae are in the eye at the time of worming. After uveitis has started, some owners find that administering bute or banamine several days before and after worming can control the inflammation so that the uveitis does not flare up every time the horse is wormed. This also might indicate that in dealing with abandoned or abused horses who may not have been wormed on a regular basis, consulting a veterinarian regarding the possibility of onchocerca microfilariae in the eye before worming may prevent uveitis in addition to its other problems. A conjunctival biopsy can be used to identify onchocerca microfilariae in the eye, but it does involve using auriculopalpebral nerve block and topical anesthesia. Once the inflammation has quieted, treatment can commence. Diethylcarbamazine and ivermectin are two drugs that are used (Cook, 1983)." Equine Recurrent Uveitis (http://www.igs.net/%7Evkirkwoodhp/eru.htm)
You will see a constant water stream out of one eye or both eyes. There may be a white or yellow mucous in the eye on a regular basis. Many times vets will think this is a blocked tear duct. Again, there may be hair loss around the face and eye area. Ivermectin is the conventional treatment, but it did not really work for our horses. My vet of 24 years, was an incredible vet. She had a diagnostic sense unlike any that I have ever seen. Unfortunately, she is not in private practice any more. We surely miss her. She had a way of thinking outside the box. We had Wedgewood Pharmacy compound a pill for our horses that has worked really well after the Ivermectin did not. It is called Diethylcarbamazine Citrate. The capsules are each 400 mg. It is basically heart worm medicine compounded into capsule form. We open two capsules, once a week, and place the powder in a cup of sweet feed and the horse eats it. No problem! Spring time is when the Onchocera becomes most active. This has worked for both horses. You can discuss this with your vet. If not managed, complications can be blindness if in the eyes, and if left untreated, adult worms can travel into the ligaments and tendons of the horse. The horse may eventually fall and stumble. They can cause swelling and bumps because of the hardening of dead worms.
Unlike many other worms the neck threadworm has an indirect life cycle. The threadworm relies on another organism to get it to the horse. The biting midge transmits the threadworm from horse to horse.
According to Dr. Robert Ogelsby, Onchocerca is a "parasitic filarial worm (nematode)." The adults live in the connective tissues of horses. There are several different (http://whqlibdoc.who.int/bulletin/1977/Vol55-No5/bulletin_1976_55%285%29_569-575.pdf) types of onchocerca - Onchocerca Reticula prefers the suspensory tendon and flexor ligament where it can cause swelling and lameness. Onchocera Cerviculus is found in the ligamentum nuchae (http://www.horseshoes.com/farrierssites/sites/rooney/neckmovement/neckmovement.htm). Their larvae, or microfilariae, are ingested by gnats and midges. Horse reactions to the larvae can vary ranging from mild irritiaton, skin scurf (http://hilltophayburners.com/Documents/EQSkinChart.pdf), lesions, swelling, and even unsoundness. Sometimes the microfilaria migrate into the eye of the horse. Some believe this is implicated in some forms of uveitis. While sweet itch is a distinct and separate condition, the midline dermatitus caused by neck thread worms is often misdiagnosed as sweet itch.
Treatment: Some worming protocols state that regular worming with ivermectin will kill the larvae of neck thread worms and that there is no way to kill the adults. If you check out the COTH thread, you will read about many people finding success with a double (by weight) worming with Equimax, repeated in two weeks. The Federal Food and Drug Administration has approved the use of ivermectin and praziquantel oral paste for the treatment of dermatitis caused by neck threadworm microfilariae. However, the COTH thread's suggested dosage was established by antedotal accounts of success treatements.

[3equines]

That's a big conclusion to reach on your own, but worming a horse is always a good place to start. I would seriously consider consulting your veterinarian before diagnosing your horse's skin problem as an unusual parasitic condition. Double-dosing wormers can cause neuroligical side effects in your horse and is not safe to do without veterinary guidance. Just be very, VERY careful with self-diagnosis and self-prescribed treatments for both your self and your animals.

[IrisGreen]

Yeah, I agree with 3equines. Don't double dose your horse unless told to do so by a vet. It can cause all kinds of complications including colic. I would stick with the betadine for right now. Spray that on for at least a week and see if that's clears up the rings.

Also, don't share tack or brushes with other horses, if this is Ringworm you could spread it to other animals and yourself. So, wash your hands if you touch the spots, you can wash with the betadine too.

[Joey A]

I've got $10 says it's just flys. Get yourself a bottle of Pyranna or Ultrashield flyspray, spray the spots everyday and it'll be gone in 7-10 days.

[JetLagaside]

hmmm I used to double dose Jet Lag all the time (yes Vet recomended).

If it's bug issues try putting some Desitin on it that will keep the bugs off and let it heal

[BlaiseGlaze]

Whew, so i called 2 of my regular vets and another local vet. told each of them that this is what i think is the problem and these are his several symptoms. they all three said I am probably correct on my diagnosis and that I should actually just use ivermectin for 4 weeks, not to double dose him, and he should be fine after that. I said oh be kay be!
BTW, I love desetin and A&D ointment!!