Fort Hood shooter... The discussion that must take place....

[WashingtonBay]

Fort Hood gunman had told US military colleagues that infidels should have their throats cut

By Nick Allen in Fort Hood
Published: 5:00PM GMT 08 Nov 2009

Major Nidal Malik Hasan, the gunman who killed 13 at America's Fort Hood military base, once gave a lecture to other doctors in which he said non-believers should be beheaded and have boiling oil poured down their throats.

He also told colleagues at America's top military hospital that non-Muslims were infidels condemned to hell who should be set on fire. The outburst came during an hour-long talk Hasan, an Army psychiatrist, gave on the Koran in front of dozens of other doctors at Walter Reed Army Medical Centre in Washington DC, where he worked for six years before arriving at Fort Hood in July.

Colleagues had expected a discussion on a medical issue but were instead given an extremist interpretation of the Koran, which Hasan appeared to believe.

It was the latest in a series of "red flags" about his state of mind that have emerged since the massacre at Fort Hood, America's largest military installation, on Thursday.

Hasan, armed with two handguns including a semi-automatic pistol, walked into a processing centre for soldiers deploying to Iraq and Afghanistan, where he killed 13 and injured more than 30.

Fellow doctors have recounted how they were repeatedly harangued by Hasan about religion and that he openly claimed to be a "Muslim first and American second."

One Army doctor who knew him said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim soldier had stopped fellow officers from filing formal complaints.

Another, Dr Val Finnell, who took a course with him in 2007 at the Uniformed Services University of the Health Sciences in Maryland, did complain about Hasan's "anti-American rants." He said: "The system is not doing what it's supposed to do. He at least should have been confronted about these beliefs, told to cease and desist, and to shape up or ship out. I really questioned his loyalty."

Selena Coppa, an activist for Iraq Veterans Against the War, said: "This man was a psychiatrist and was working with other psychiatrists every day and they failed to notice how deeply disturbed someone right in their midst was."

One of Hasan's neighbours described how on the day of the massacre, about 9am, he gave her a Koran and told her: "I'm going to do good work for God" before leaving for the base.... Snip.... rest of article here: Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6526030/Fort-Hood-gunman-had-told-US-military-colleagues-that-infidels-should-have-their-throats-cut.html)
So.... what exactly does a guy have to DO, before we stop being more afraid of not being PC than we are of truly dangerous thoughts?

I'm afraid I know the answer in this case.

Another article:Army chief fears backlash for Muslim U.S. soldiers

By Will Dunham (http://blogs.reuters.com/search/journalist.php?edition=us&n=will.dunham&)

WASHINGTON, Nov 8 (Reuters) - The U.S. Army's top general expressed concern on Sunday that last week's mass shooting at Fort Hood in Texas, blamed on a Muslim Army officer, could fuel a backlash in the military against Muslim troops.

General George Casey, U.S. Army chief of staff, cautioned against jumping to conclusions about whether religious beliefs motivated the accused gunman, Major Nidal Malik Hasan, a Muslim born in the United States of immigrant parents.

"I'm concerned that this increased speculation could cause a backlash against some of our Muslim soldiers. And I've asked our Army leaders to be on the lookout for that," Casey told CNN's "State of the Union."

There are about 3,000 Muslims on active duty military service or in the National Guard or reserve forces, Casey said. They remain a small minority within the U.S. military.

A Fort Hood official has said Hasan yelled "Allahu Akbar" -- Arabic for "God is Greatest" -- just before the shooting in which 13 people were killed and 30 wounded. The 39-year-old U.S. Army psychiatrist was shot four times by police. He was hospitalized but no longer needed a ventilator to breathe.

Relatives have said Hasan wanted to leave the Army to avoid being deployed to Afghanistan and that he had faced harassment by fellow soldiers because of his religion.

Casey was not specific about the type of backlash he feared against Muslims in the military, or who might lead a backlash.

Rest here: Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSN08232239)
Can we for once admit we have real cause to fear the "lash" around here, before we start being more worried about an imagined "back" "lash"? I think really, I am not the one in need of remedial lessons on playing nice with others.

The second article explains why the first article rings true. We don't want to report a guy like that, for fear of US looking insensitive. We're told not to be insensitive! We fall all over ourselves, in the wake of tragedies like this, and our president and top military brass continue to call for sensitivity when we should be calling for clarity and reason.

Maybe, just maybe, we need to be a little less sensitive and a little more honest and brave and protective of our own self interest. Maybe, just maybe, this guy had a point of view which should never belonged in our military, particularly in the role of counseling. And it should not take an event like this for us to see that. Maybe?

[mare]

IF the reports in the first article are accurate, and Hasan lectured that these beliefs held by Muslim terrorists are the correct way for a Muslim to believe, I am shocked that the other doctors, all officers did nothing afterwards.

OTOH, if Hasan gave a talk describing the wacked out beliefs of Muslim terrorists, I could see that they doctors didn't suspect him of holding to those beliefs.

Just saying, because media reports are later found to be false or exaggerated again and again.

IF doctors were talked out of reporting this (referencing, "One Army doctor who knew him said a fear of appearing discriminatory against a Muslim soldier had stopped fellow officers from filing formal complaints."), I am shocked and the world outside of Wyoming is crazier, sicker and weaker than I imagined because I haven't met a doctor yet who doesn't stand up for whatever s/he thinks they should do regardless of the opinion of others.

Bottom line: I expect people to speak on behalf of their own interests. Reasonable peope's interests don't infringe on the rights of others. We have laws for the extreme few that would.

[Tiz]

The discussion goes on and on, and doesn't change a thing. The fact is not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorists are Muslim. I think it's just time to be honest when given the opportunity.

[Remali]

Wow. Now that is frightening. And well-said Tiz...... not all Muslims are terrorists, but almost all terrorists are Muslim. Very true.

[rocknK]

We never thought terrorists would fly airliners into the World Trade Center. We never thought one terrorist could shoot up an Army base. About time to start thinking about what's next instead of reacting to bad stuff. We know the Muslim world has declared jihad on the infidels, might be time to start a little jihadding of our own! Figuratively speaking of course. We could start by becoming more energy independent. Let those folks try drinking their oil for instance.

[Sundays Man]

Political correctness is going to get us all killed. Our leaders are more afraid of the people on the "other side" of the political spectrum than they are the people who want to destroy us. We are destroying ourselves from within. We have drawn our politcal lines and the REALLY important stuff has been put on hold. The Israeli's don't have the PC problem we have. We seach gray haired grandmother types at the airports and are afraid of "profiling" (please don't profile, that's just wrong). The Israeli officials will tell you that we Americans look for bombs; the Israelis look for terrorists. If you have a middle eastern name or you look the part, you will be searched and interogated.

Everyone has danced around the Muslim issue with the Ft. Hood terrorist attack in fear of political apprisal or insulting those of the faith. Let me see if I have this right, we don't want to offend the Muslims, yet the Muslim radicals want to kill us. If we ignore all Muslim threats in the effort to offend none then my children's lives are in danger. Yeah, makes perfect sense to me. Lord knows we don't want to hurt someones feelings or make them angry at us.

If the people of my faith were causing the problem and every Baptist person were suspect, I would not be offended. I would say please protect our country and our way of life even if it means a little inconvenience for me. The offense or the real insult should be that the rest of the Muslim world only wants to protect the radical idiots that seek to kill and destroy anyone who doesn not believe as they do. Yet if you as a law abiding (non-muslim) citizen make the wrong remark or statement you would be investigated as a terrorist. I don't know whether to scratch my watch or wind my head sometimes with all the goofy stuff we do in our country today. With all of the apparent warning signs Hasan was putting out and it turned into this slaughter tells me that we are in REAL trouble. Politically correct, but in real trouble.

WAKE UP AMERICA!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

We in our PC-driven blissful ignorance keep saying things like "radical islam" to try to distinguish it from mainstream islam. But have we ever tried to actually figure out what the difference is? No. One reason we haven't is that I think we're secretly terrified of the answer.

In this case the Army was so trapped in its bondage and worship of multiculturalism that it intentionally blinded itself to an obvious and growing threat right in it's midst. There weren't any Nazis allowed in the Army in WW2, but here we had one goose-stepping up and down the street shouting "Death to the Jews!!" and everybody was so afraid to "offend" him that they just turned the other way and pretended not to see anything.

[rocknK]

We in our PC-driven blissful ignorance keep saying things like "radical islam" to try to distinguish it from mainstream islam. But have we ever tried to actually figure out what the difference is? No. One reason we haven't is that I think we're secretly terrified of the answer.

In this case the Army was so trapped in its bondage and worship of multiculturalism that it intentionally blinded itself to an obvious and growing threat right in it's midst. There weren't any Nazis allowed in the Army in WW2, but here we had one goose-stepping up and down the street shouting "Death to the Jews!!" and everybody was so afraid to "offend" him that they just turned the other way and pretended not to see anything.
All in the name of "diversity".

[Sundays Man]

We in our PC-driven blissful ignorance keep saying things like "radical islam" to try to distinguish it from mainstream islam. But have we ever tried to actually figure out what the difference is? No. One reason we haven't is that I think we're secretly terrified of the answer.

In this case the Army was so trapped in its bondage and worship of multiculturalism that it intentionally blinded itself to an obvious and growing threat right in it's midst. There weren't any Nazis allowed in the Army in WW2, but here we had one goose-stepping up and down the street shouting "Death to the Jews!!" and everybody was so afraid to "offend" him that they just turned the other way and pretended not to see anything.

Indeed we are afraid of the answer, but it is so obvious. If you remember or have read from history, we also rounded up all Japanese citizens in WWII and placed them where they "could be watched", so to speak. I don't know that I totally agree with that action, but it does demonstrate the difference between then and now.:eek: In times like these, I would much rather err on the side of caution than to sit idle and do nothing while my nation is destroyed. Look at how things are in certain areas of Michigan. There are areas that are basically small islamic "states" and you had better be careful what you say and how you act when in those areas. To me, that would be a very important area to monitor and clean up. It has all the makings of a train wreck about to happen. And what are the "officials" of our country doing about it? Oh yeah, diversity, we have to remember diversity.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

All in the name of "diversity".

Right.

I would add on to all this: We cannot assume that this guy was totally in a vacuum while he became more and more virulent in his jihadism... I want to know about his mosque and the Imam there.

Word is that two of the 9/11 hijackers attended this same Mosque. Oh yeah? Am I the only one that thinks that's maybe more than a little coincidental? How many murderers does an Imam get to produce before we do something about it?

[WashingtonBay]

Somebody from one of the mosques he attended... I think before going down to Hood... Up around Walter Reed, was interviewed, and I was going to bring it up along the line of delineating between radical and moderate, both from within, and from without.

He said Hasan was looking for a wife and they tried to help him, but Hasan wanted a 'traditional' wife who wore a Hijab, and they couldn't help him. I was struck at the time, what makes an American-born man seek such a wife? and found it interesting or ironic, that the mosque he was attending, did not know anyone like that, no one who could be a match for this guy. I wanted to ask follow-up questions. No idea if that is the same mosque those other terrorists also attended or a different one.

[Sundays Man]

Right.

I would add on to all this: We cannot assume that this guy was totally in a vacuum while he became more and more virulent in his jihadism... I want to know about his mosque and the Imam there.

Word is that two of the 9/11 hijackers attended this same Mosque. Oh yeah? Am I the only one that thinks that's maybe more than a little coincidental? How many murderers does an Imam get to produce before we do something about it?

Yeah, Fox News :eek:(cover your eyes lefties) has been all over the Mosque thing this morning, to a certain extent anyway.

[WashingtonBay]

My local news station just reported it. I think it's gotten enough momentum that it's broken through the MSM suppression barrier.

[Sundays Man]

Who knows. As tragic and sensless as this was, maybe it will be the ignition spark that changes they way we handle things. I mean it's like we, as a nation, have basically forgotten what 9-11 felt like and we are back to business as usual. Except business isn't usual any longer.

[HoustonFarrier]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_muslims

The personal Web site for a radical American imam living in Yemen who had contact with two 9/11 hijackers is praising alleged Fort Hood shooter Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan as a hero. The posting Monday on the Web site for Anwar al Awlaki, who was a spiritual leader at two mosques where three 9/11 hijackers worshipped, said American Muslims who condemned the attacks on the Texas military base last week are hypocrites who have committed treason against their religion.
Two U.S. intelligence officials told The Associated Press the Web site was Al Awlaki's. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence collection.
Anwar said the only way a Muslim can justify serving in the U.S. military is if he intends to "follow in the footsteps of men like Nidal."


Not a terrorist though.......riiight:p

Steve

[rocknK]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091109/ap_on_re_us/us_fort_hood_muslims

The personal Web site for a radical American imam living in Yemen who had contact with two 9/11 hijackers is praising alleged Fort Hood shooter Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan as a hero. The posting Monday on the Web site for Anwar al Awlaki, who was a spiritual leader at two mosques where three 9/11 hijackers worshipped, said American Muslims who condemned the attacks on the Texas military base last week are hypocrites who have committed treason against their religion.
Two U.S. intelligence officials told The Associated Press the Web site was Al Awlaki's. They spoke on condition of anonymity to discuss intelligence collection.
Anwar said the only way a Muslim can justify serving in the U.S. military is if he intends to "follow in the footsteps of men like Nidal."


Not a terrorist though.......riiight:p

Steve
A cruise missle in his tent would shut this jack@$$'s piehole!

[rocknK]

Who knows. As tragic and sensless as this was, maybe it will be the ignition spark that changes they way we handle things. I mean it's like we, as a nation, have basically forgotten what 9-11 felt like and we are back to business as usual. Except business isn't usual any longer.
SM, I haven't forgotten 9-11. I try to imagine what it must've been like to choose between being burned to death or jumping out a window. That's a choice I hope my friends & family never have to make. Oh, & I also remember the tapes of the folks in the middle east dancing in the streets celebrating the death of so many fine Americans.

[WashingtonBay]

I just remembered a vanity I wrote and posted on FR a couple weeks after 9-11. It was about this same subject... Not much has changed:
How do we end terrorism without being impolite to Muslims?

Subtitle: Why are we so messed up that BLIND political correctness is our priority right now?

Posted on Friday, September 28, 2001

I am sorry that Muslims are being shouted at from pickup trucks... because shouting from pickup trucks is unseemly and ineffective. But constantly tripping over ourselves apologizing to Muslims who are just "normal Americans" is going to ensure that we lose.

These terrorists make an art of coming to this country, making friends and seeming very normal for many years, taking full advantage of our political correctness, our free right of travel, our education in universities, our flight training, and while they are here they study our weaknesses, not the least of which is our desire to be completely trusting and accepting of them.

The hijackers who did this did not wear "Terrorist in Training" T-shirts. They looked very much like those who claim to be unfairly treated now, and also look like those that I have seen walking through Seattle trying not to make eye contact with anyone... I am very vigilant at watching them now.... I wonder what they think, whether they know one of them, whether they are one of them. I know they feel me watching them, and I hope they are getting mad... Not mad at me, but mad at those among them that are causing my fear.

I guarantee that my mistrust of Middle-Eastern Muslims will grow and not diminish, until there are long lines of Muslims waiting at police precincts to report suspicious behavior among them, and until the interviews shown on television are NOT people of European decent full of guilt at their own mistrusting thoughts telling us how to behave and what to think.

My mistrust will diminish when those Middle-Eastern Muslims here in America are the most vocal about rooting out this problem. The problem is that those that are speaking up so far are those that feel victimized unfairly, or offer vague references that Islam is a religion of peace, and not terror.

Clearly there are lots of Muslims who have read something else. Where are those that have overheard discussions, but did not participate? Where are those that have been approached to participate or give money, but chose not to? Where are those that were trusted enough to confide in, but did not decide to join? Or those that joined ethnic or Muslim groups they believed to improve people's lives, only to find out that the real mission was something very different?

Where are those that are vocal about exposing those among them that are the problem? Until they speak up, I will continue to mistrust all of them without feeling an ounce of guilt, because I refuse to feel guiltier than they do about these attacks on our country.

Remember grade school, when the teacher needed to know which student in the class had stolen Suzie's crayons? And all students were forced to stay after class until the guilty party confessed, or his friends ratted him out? Everyone in the class faced equal suspicion until the common desire to go to recess was greater than the embarrassment of confession. The peer pressure to end the detention of everyone turned toward finding the evil-doer within. Well, I for one will continue to blame the whole class rather than be made a fool of when they strike again while we do our best to be polite.

I have no doubt that America can take out all the terrorists and supporters that they find. But killing them from the outside will never really solve the problem. Weaken it maybe, make money harder to raise maybe, keep them running maybe, but we do not have a lock on craftiness and talent. Outsiders can never get them all, and will probably create more enemies as we try. Only "they" can solve this problem, and it is imperative that we compel them to do so, or assume they are guilty if they do not.

We should be very afraid that Muslims here and abroad that have been our friends when we could help them are only quietly and half-heartedly helping us now, trying not to be overly offensive to their own. We should be very afraid that Muslims in this country are silently trying to keep their heads down. I am very afraid that many Muslims in this country know more than they have admitted, and yet want the benefit of the doubt from me.

Let us not seem hysterical by shouting at them from pickup trucks, but let us never let political correctness allow us to be blindsided again...

[WashingtonBay]

One major difference between Hasan and the 9-11 hijackers, besides American citizenship, is unlike them, who tried to blend in and never uttered a political or ideological word that might have blown their cover, Hasan appears to have been very outspoken, in the middle of our military, in the middle of hospitals that should have been filled with people trained to understand warning signs, he was a giant flashing warning sign, and 'we' still didn't see it, or chose to ignore it.

[natisha]

Wow, WB , just wow- in a good way of course

[cheval]

Did you watch the press conference with the Chief Army guy? The reporters asked him about the major's previous actions and the Army guy didn't really have much to say in response. They had known that he had been making comments.

[WashingtonBay]

Not everyone was ignoring it:
Officials: U.S. Aware of Hasan Efforts to Contact al Qaeda

Army Major in Fort Hood Massacre Used 'Electronic Means' to Connect with Terrorists

By RICHARD ESPOSITO, MATTHEW COLE and BRIAN ROSS
Nov. 9, 2009

http://a.abcnews.com/assets/images/showlogos/carousel_wn_logo.gif

U.S. intelligence agencies were aware months ago that Army Major Nidal Malik Hasan (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/nidal-malik-hasan-wanted-army-family/story?id=9008184) was attempting to make contact with people associated with al Qaeda, two American officials briefed on classified material in the case told ABC News.

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan tried to make contact with people linked to al Qaeda.

It is not known whether the intelligence agencies informed the Army (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6099038&page=1) that one of its officers was seeking to connect with suspected al Qaeda figures, the officials said.

Rep. Peter Hoekstra (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/exclusive-convicted-cia-spy-broke-law/story?id=8995107) (R-MI), the ranking Republican on the House Intelligence Committee, said that he requested the CIA and other intelligence agencies brief the committee on what was known, if anything, about Hasan by the U.S. intelligence community, only to be refused.

In response, Hoekstra issued a document preservation request to four intelligence agencies. The letter (http://hoekstra.house.gov/UploadedFiles/RM_Hoekstra_Ltr_to_Blair_7_Nov_2009.pdf), dated November 7th, was sent to directors Dennis Blair (DNI), Robert Mueller (FBI), Lt. Gen Keith Alexander (NSA) and Leon Panetta (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=7847478) (CIA).

Hoekstra said he is "absolutely furious" that the house intel committee has been refused an intelligence briefing by the DNI or CIA (http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id=6353907&page=1) on Hasan's attempt to reach out to al Qaeda, as first reported by ABC News.

"This is a law enforcement investigation, in which other agencies—not the CIA—have the lead," CIA spokesman Paul Gimigliano said in a response to ABC News. " Any suggestion that the CIA refused to brief Congress is incorrect."

[HoustonFarrier]

"This is a law enforcement investigation,

Sound familiar ???? Our beloved Slick Willy (Bill "where's the interns" Clinton) said the same thing about taking Bin Laden down during his term.


"Those who forget history are doomed to repeat it"


Steve

[cheval]

Everyone that mattered was ignoring it. Otherwise, they'd have been on him like a fly to horse poo.

[WashingtonBay]

Yeah - I do know what you're saying Houston, but in this case... it inevitably is a law enforcement situation.

And while it would have been nice... to say the least, if the Army had acted in it's own self-interest to get rid of this guy, The CIA has a slightly different role here... if this guy was trying to contact al qaeda, the CIA's task is best served by letting him try... watch him, see what he does, see who bites. Not only does CIA get in big trouble if they're watching citizens in this country, more information can be gathered by not jumping in too soon. I'm sure they did NOT predict he would do this, now.

And I have no particular grief with them if they didn't immediately run in and brief the yahoos in congress.

[HoustonFarrier]

Yeah - I do know what you're saying Houston, but in this case... it inevitably is a law enforcement situation.

And while it would have been nice... to say the least, if the Army had acted in it's own self-interest to get rid of this guy, The CIA has a slightly different role here... if this guy was trying to contact al qaeda, the CIA's task is best served by letting him try... watch him, see what he does, see who bites. Not only does CIA get in big trouble if they're watching citizens in this country, more information can be gathered by not jumping in too soon. I'm sure they did NOT predict he would do this, now.

And I have no particular grief with them if they didn't immediately run in and brief the yahoos in congress.

It is now coming out that his guy, much like the 9-11 hijackers was visiting a local strip club near Ft. Hood the week prior to the attack.

If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck..........it's a damn duck !!!! Geez.

Steve

[rocknK]

The way I've heard it is that as long as you whack a bunch of infidels on your way to meeting Allah all you worldly sins are forgiven, such as boozin' & hanging out in strip joints which I think the Koran says is a big:nono:

[Sundays Man]

SM, I haven't forgotten 9-11. I try to imagine what it must've been like to choose between being burned to death or jumping out a window. That's a choice I hope my friends & family never have to make. Oh, & I also remember the tapes of the folks in the middle east dancing in the streets celebrating the death of so many fine Americans.

I didn't mean to indicate that NONE of us remember. It just seems the leaders and many of the sheep blindly following them act as though it never happened or they just don't care. I mean look at what's happening in Easton, Pa over the memorial they want to erect for those on flight 93. It has to be some kind of poison in the water or something!!!!!

[Remali]

"where's the interns"..... oh that made me laugh....

[cheval]

He gave away his Koran and was giving away furniture prior to his attack. No one around him thought to question that - that's way beyond being deployed. He could have taken his Koran with him. That should have been a red flag.

The CIA are most certainly watching citizens. I have to wonder how much of a bad thing that is?

The stories of the hero's coming out of this tragedy will bring tears to your eyes. The medical soldiers graduating at the ceremony running toward the gun fire still in their caps and gowns, the other soldiers that pulled people to safety, the cop that took him down with the four shots.

I wasn't in the Armed Forces, my little brother was, and when he talked about them being 'family' I never really got it until I heard those stories and saw the pictures of the soldiers comforting each other.

[Remali]

Good point Cheval..... I heard that on the News, he had given away his Koran, given away furniture....
all red flags....

[Buckpoco]

Originally Posted by Ragnar Danneskjold http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/images/styles/beige/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?p=245172#post245172)
We in our PC-driven blissful ignorance keep saying things like "radical islam" to try to distinguish it from mainstream islam. But have we ever tried to actually figure out what the difference is? No. One reason we haven't is that I think we're secretly terrified of the answer.

In this case the Army was so trapped in its bondage and worship of multiculturalism that it intentionally blinded itself to an obvious and growing threat right in it's midst. There weren't any Nazis allowed in the Army in WW2, but here we had one goose-stepping up and down the street shouting "Death to the Jews!!" and everybody was so afraid to "offend" him that they just turned the other way and pretended not to see anything.

Well said! It's frightening...how many more Americans have to die before our leadership says "enough" ???
WE ARE AT WAR !!!
Don't they know that?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...]
WE ARE AT WAR !!!
Don't they know that?


The military is at war. America is at the mall.

[Arrow]

This isn't meant to excuse the shooter in any way, shape, or form--but it does add interesting context, it's from today's New York Times:

November 10, 2009
At Fort Hood, Some Violence Is Too Familiar
By MICHAEL MOSS and RAY RIVERA

FORT HOOD, Tex. — Staff Sgt. Gilberto Mota, 35, and his wife, Diana, 30, an Army specialist, had returned to Fort Hood from Iraq last year when he used his gun to kill her, and then took his own life, the authorities say. In July, two members of the First Cavalry Division, also just back from the war with decorations for their service, were at a party when one killed the other.

That same month, Staff Sgt. Justin Lee Garza, 28, under stress from two deployments, killed himself in a friend’s apartment outside Fort Hood, four days after he was told no therapists were available for a counseling session. “What bothers me most is this happened while he was supposed to be on suicide watch,” said his mother, Teri Smith. “To this day, I don’t know where he got the gun.”

Fort Hood is still reeling from last week’s carnage, in which an Army psychiatrist is accused of a massacre that left 13 people dead. But in the town of Killeen and other surrounding communities, the attack, one of the worst mass shootings on a military base in the United States, is also seen by many as another blow in an area that has been beset by crime and violence since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq began. Reports of domestic abuse have grown by 75 percent since 2001. At the same time, violent crime in Killeen has risen 22 percent while declining 7 percent in towns of similar size in other parts of the country.

The stresses are seen in other ways, too.

Since 2003, there have been 76 suicides by personnel assigned to Fort Hood, with 10 this year, according to military officials.

A crisis center on base is averaging 60 phone calls a week from soldiers and family members seeking various help for problems from suicide to anger management, with about the same volume of walk-ins and scheduled appointments.

In recent days, Army officials have pledged to redouble their efforts to help soldiers cope with deployment. The base, which uses some of the most innovative approaches in the military, plans to expand a help center set up in September that provides a variety of assistance to soldiers, including breathing techniques for handling combat stress and goal-setting skills upon their return.

“Fort Hood is very attuned to this,” said Col. William S. Rabena, who runs the help center known as the Resiliency Center Campus. “It’s the only thing to do.”

The Army has also sent an array of specialists to Fort Hood to help soldiers and their families, including chaplains, social workers, combat stress specialists, counselors and experts in crisis and disaster behavioral management. Army officials said more such assistance might be sent to the base.

But interviews with soldiers who have deployed one or more times to Iraq or Afghanistan, and with family members of those who died violently back here in Texas, show that the Army’s efforts are still falling short. Even some alarm bells rung by the Army leadership have gone unanswered.

In July, two weeks after Sergeant Garza’s death, Lt. Gen. Rick Lynch, then the base commander, told Congress he was in dire need of more mental health professionals. “That’s the biggest frustration,“ he told a House subcommittee. “I’m short about 44 of what I am convinced I need at Fort Hood that I just don’t have.”

Among the medical personnel brought to Fort Hood to help deal with the growing mental health issues was Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, who arrived in July. Major Hasan is accused in the attacks last week, but little is known about what might have driven him.

“Our soldiers are coming back and not getting the help they need,” said Cynthia Thomas, an Army wife who runs a private assistance center for soldiers in Killeen called Under the Hood Café. “Whether it’s self-medicating, anger or violence, these are the consequences of war, and you have to think about all the people affected by soldiers coming home, the parents, spouses, children, brothers, sisters, aunts and cousins.”

Pfc. Michael Kern, of Riverside, Calif., said he tried unsuccessfully to obtain help for stress last year in Baghdad, but was ridiculed by an officer in front of his tanker unit. “He said he would have to impose mandatory sleeping times,” said Private Kern, 22, “and that health care was for people with serious problems.”

Back at Fort Hood, Private Kern said he had a breakdown that led to hospitalization and is now awaiting discharge at his request. If he had received therapy in Iraq, he said, “I might not be in this situation now.”

Military officials say the crime and violence associated with Fort Hood must be viewed with the base’s size in mind. With 53,000 soldiers assigned to the base, it has become the largest facility in the country, and much of the surrounding area is tied to the military through family or business.

Col. Edward McCabe, a Catholic chaplain at Fort Hood, said signs of fatigue and other strains are “rampant” on the base. “The numbers of divorces I’ve had to deal with are huge, the cases of physical abuse,” Colonel McCabe said. “Every night in my apartment complex some soldier and his wife are screaming and shouting at each other.“

The Army influences nearly every aspect of life in Killeen, a cotton town until the base moved in during World War II. About 55 miles north of Austin, the town straddles U.S. 190 and is split by a long corridor of strip malls. Most of the 102,000 residents are soldiers, their families or Army retirees. Business here and in the surrounding smaller communities like Belton and Harker Heights ebbs and flows around the first and 15th of each month — military paydays — and around deployments.

At The Killeen Daily Herald, which covers the base with a sympathetic ear to its military readers, employees see similar patterns play out with each troop rotation.

One day, it is a homecoming, with hundreds of families waving flags and homemade signs along T. J. Mills Boulevard leading into the base’s main gate. The next day, crime reports increase, especially cases of domestic violence. “Unfortunately, you see the trend every time there’s a homecoming, when the divisions come home,” said Olga Pena, the paper’s managing editor.

Nicolas Serna, the managing attorney of the local legal aid office, said requests for protective orders had steadily increased over the last several years.

He questioned whether Fort Hood was doing nearly enough for soldiers or for victims of domestic violence. A few years ago, he said, the base refused the group’s offer to provide legal assistance and to help with protection orders for families on Fort Hood.

Some social workers in the area see it differently. The Army, while not perfect, has been trying to address the situation, said Suzanne Armour, the director of programs at the Families in Crisis shelter in Killeen.

Michael Sibberson, the principal of Killeen High School, which has 1,880 students, a little over half with military parents, said in one sense the wars had helped the students relate to one another. On the other side, Mr. Sibberson said, the students are not getting the parental guidance they need because so many have parents deployed. That has led to poor grades, and more behavioral problems.

“Kids are not getting the support at the dinner table they need because Mom or Dad is not there,” he said, adding, “When you call the house you are likely to get Grandma, or a mom who says, ‘I am so full I don’t know what to do with him anymore.’ ”

Henry Garza, the district attorney for Bell County, which includes Killeen, said increases in crime might reflect the town’s rapid growth, though the federal crime data is adjusted for population changes. But the data may be understated because it does not count crimes prosecuted by the military authorities, who sometimes handle serious felonies and misdemeanors by active-duty soldiers even when they occur off base.

Base officials declined to release crime data without a Freedom of Information Act request.

Whether civilian or military official investigate deaths, the proceedings often leave families frustrated by the lack of clear answers.

The list of medals awarded to Sergeant Garza (no relation to the district attorney) tell of a good soldier. After two tours in Iraq, he shared a tight bond with unit members and missed them greatly when the Army sent him to a base in Georgia for additional training after a second deployment. He was troubled by a breakup with a girlfriend. And though he seldom spoke with his family about his combat tours, he once confided to his mother that he had a killed a person in Iraq. “He said, ‘It was him or me,’ ” Ms. Smith said. “But you could tell it troubled him.”

His family believes he did not get the care he needed, despite signs he had fallen into despair.

In June, he left the Georgia base without permission, and the Army tracked him to a hotel room in Paris, Tex. In a suicide note he sent to a friend before leaving, he said he wanted to end it close to his friends. Among his purchases was a shotgun.

Sergeant Garza was brought back to Fort Hood and committed for psychiatric care, first to a civilian hospital because there was no room at the base hospital, said his uncle, Gary Garza, who lives in Killeen. After three days, he was transferred to the base hospital. He was released after two weeks and assigned to take outpatient counseling.

“We thought he was doing better,” said his grandfather, Homer Garza, a retired command sergeant major who served in Korea and Vietnam and who himself had silently suffered for decades with post-traumatic stress.

In fact, Sergeant Garza had shared misgivings about his treatment at the base hospital with his uncle.

“He said he felt like he was getting really good treatment at the civilian hospital,” his uncle said. “He said the civilian doctors seemed to care more. And for the military doctors, it was just like a job for them.”

True or not, on July 7 Sergeant Garza received a message on his cellphone canceling what was to be his first outpatient appointment.

Though his family says the Army was supposed to be checking his apartment for guns and alcohol, that Sunday he put a pistol to his head and pulled the trigger. His mother later listened to the message.

“They said, ‘Sorry, we don’t have a counselor for you today,’ ” Ms. Smith said. “ ‘If you don’t hear back from us by Monday, give us a call.’ ”

Clifford Krauss and Campbell Robertson contributed reporting from Killeen, Tex., and Griff Palmer from New York.

[Sundays Man]

It says in the article that little is known about what drove him. What a bunch of malarky. Maybe if we are totally blind, which seems to be the case these days with many. Is war hell? Yes. Does it affect you. Yes, all of your life in some way or another. Some can handle it and some can't. Major Hasan had no reason or experiences to claim P.T.S.D. He had plenty of other indicators that tell me that even if he left the Army he would show up in time at some place in the world to make trouble. I have no doubt that he was being watched by our intellegence people, but his threat to the safety of others was grossly under estimated. This is one time that our intellegence people wish they could get a "do over" I'm sure.

We can say he was just crazy, or we can say he was under stress but that would be turning a blind eye to the facts. He will no doubt try to get off on P.T.S.D. issues, but I don't think it will fly. He's a terrorist plain and simple. It's an insult to those brave men and women who have gone to war and made the sacrafice to let him get off claiming stress disorder. Those patriots have seen a lot and been through a lot while we sit in our secure homes enjoying the freedom we have, at thier expense and sacrifice, and go to the shopping mall and eat ice cream. Then we read and study statistics like the "fish wrapper" New York Times spouts off trying to make the very ones that keep us free and safe look like the bad guys. Dare I say that WE ARE AT WAR!! And the enemy is cowardly, deceitful and without conscience. Maybe we have forgotten that, in what they consider their finest hours, they use Downs Sydrome teens to strap bombs to; they have used infants with bombs strapped to them while their mothers held them and blew themselves up in an effort to kill people like us, infidels they call us. They are vermin and I know what I do with vermin. God bless our military heroes who will keep on keeping on until the job is done for the sake of us all. And to those who return with "legitimate" stress issues; we owe it to them to ensure that there is someone who can help them work through it all the time, every time they are in need. It is not easy to see the destruction, bloodshed and death that they witness without SOME issues manifesting. If we think "we" have stress in our lives; we should walk in their shoes for a while.

Our enemy is relentless. We can talk to them in sweet tones till we are blue in the face and in the end they will simply kill us. A fish rots from the head, as the saying goes, and I'm beginning to smell dead fish.

[natisha]

“He said he felt like he was getting really good treatment at the civilian hospital,” his uncle said. “He said the civilian doctors seemed to care more. And for the military doctors, it was just like a job for them.”
. Let this be a warning for those who think Gov. run Health care will be so great

[WashingtonBay]

The Army has also sent an array of specialists to Fort Hood to help soldiers and their families, including chaplains, social workers, combat stress specialists, counselors and experts in crisis and disaster behavioral management.Yeah - unfortunately one of those who was sent was Hasan!

One day, it is a homecoming, with hundreds of families waving flags and homemade signs along T. J. Mills Boulevard leading into the base’s main gate. The next day, crime reports increase, especially cases of domestic violence. “Unfortunately, you see the trend every time there’s a homecoming, when the divisions come home,”Fort Hood is like a mid-sized town all by itself, with a population heavily weighted toward youngish men, and their wives. They come from all over, and they come without their individual support systems, they come from a generation (mine) that seems to have a harder time staying together and staying true than past generations, and these days, they live under the added stress of long deployment to war.

So these days... you've got guys, and gals, being deployed for extended periods, under all kinds of conditions, and they come back with those memories and those stresses... but that's not necessarily what makes them crack. They crack, often, for the same reason people have always cracked... broken hearts. They return to love that went wrong while they were away. I'm not saying PTSD from prolonged stress at war isn't also a huge factor.... it is! But what has historically helped our troops stay centered while away, is the comfort that awaits them at home, and the reality today doesn't always measure up to the ideal implied in the famous photos of the past.

But even then... most can roll with even that setback... in a base this size, you'll find some that cannot.


All that only goes to discuss some of the "other" problems reported in the article. None of it explains this shooting or Hasan. He broke for his own reasons, under much less 'stress'.

[cheval]

My brother is one of the toughest guys out there. Man of steel type of thing. Nothing rattles that man. NOTHING. But when he was deployed to Haiti for Operation Uphold Democracy and saw babies and little kids stacked roof high in crates, dead - things really changed for him. Plus getting shot at, ambushed, seeing horrible things that would make what Stephen King writes look like Dr. Suess on a daily basis, that's enough to get to anyone.

And those guys that keep to themselves and don't ask for outside help, because that is what is in their nature, they are the ones that implode. Luckily, my brother finally reached out and got help. He realized if he didn't, it wasn't going to be pretty.

We are at war. We really have been for a lot longer than this recent war. Haiti was bad. Wasn't a lot of media about it, but it was bad. My brother got so many commendations you'd be able to spot him from outer space.

He has buddies that didn't fare as well, did not reach out and domestic violence and suicide did occur. Our soldiers go through a lot. We have got to take better care of them, no matter the cost. No matter the cost.

[WashingtonBay]

Understood... And I think today's Army is better at providing that support than we ever have been. I hope it is.

But it's still a human system, even at it's best, suffering the inevitable imperfections of dealing with people of varying talents, on all sides.

But even given that.... What circumstances could possibly lead the Army to put a guy like this, with all his warning signs, in a position of counseling someone like your brother. What I keep coming back to is that this guy was running around showing obvious signs of NEEDING psychiatric help, or at the very least, appropriate career advice, and he's who we put in the position of counseling those soldiers who really do deserve good care and advice. I quite simply, don't get it.

[cheval]

It's not though. Not any better by a long shot. And because it's not our soldiers aren't getting the care they need. That is why there is such an increase in suicides, drug use, domestic violence, other violent crimes. My brother stays in touch with his buddies. Their care is no better than when he served. They make appointments and wait for weeks on end to get in. By that time, some have killed themselves or gotten into other troubles (drugs, alcohol) trying to chase the internal paih away.

My brother said that despite what the top dog said, this man's army is spread too thin. They are missing people through the cracks, including Hasan. A guy like him may be brought to someone's attention but there are so many things going on, it gets pushed down the pile of things to deal with until you have a massacre like this. My brother was saying this likely will not be the last.

[WashingtonBay]

Well, better than it was in previous times, and previous wars... Still may not be good enough.

Hard times. I do wish them all the best we can get. Unfortunately, in the things armies and governments are considered good at... I'm not sure soft skills like good psychiatric care is often among them. Good care may be owed by all of us, but it will always fall hardest on those closest to make sure it is given.

[Arrow]

This backs up Cheval's point:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/11/12/hasan_coverage/print.html

The media's silly Fort Hood coverage
Everyone wants to debate terrorism and political correctness, but the real story is the failure of Army medicine

By Mark Benjamin

Nov. 12, 2009 |

The conventional narrative of the Fort Hood shootings, one week later, has been distinguished by the reporting of unconfirmed -- and sometimes incorrect -- details and the drawing of dubious conclusions. The only thing that suggests the current story will withstand the test of time better than the initial Pat Tillman myth (that he died in combat, rather than by friendly fire), or the overheated tale of heroism by Jessica Lynch in 2003 (which Lynch herself protested), is that two basic facts seem clear: The shootings certainly happened, and given the number of eyewitnesses, it's almost certain that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan did it.

The fact that it was first incorrectly reported that Hasan died in the shootings, and that he was in cahoots with other perpetrators, may well be fairly chalked up to confusion during that first chaotic day. Other details, however, continue to unravel a week later. The media debate provoked by the Hasan incident is equally off-topic and unreliable. As someone who's been asked to talk about the shootings because of my work covering the poor psychological care given to returning Iraq and Afghanistan veterans, I've had a front-row seat on the way preconceived biases are distorting the debate.

First, the ongoing factual unraveling of the narrative. As the New York Times reported this Thursday, initial information seized on by talk shows that Sgt. Kimberly Munley, a petite police officer, bravely brought down Hasan in a hail of gunfire in which she was also wounded was, well, also not true. Munley, it seems, just got shot. Senior Sgt. Mark Todd actually shot Hasan to the ground and cuffed him after Munley had already been wounded.

Also on Thursday, the Washington Post raised solid questions about previous reports that Hasan had tried to get out of his military service because of what he saw as a growing schism between his religious and military duties. While Hasan's aunt has said he wanted to get out of the military, the Post quotes an Army source who claims Hasan "did not formally seek to leave the military as a conscientious objector or for any other reason."

Despite some print publications attempting to keep track of these kinds of facts, a lot of media folks continue to ask the wrong questions and/or provide some of their own unlikely, or unsubstantiated, answers.

The Monday after the shootings, I got my first taste of how the story was embarking on a life of its own as I settled into a chair at one of MSNBC’s Washington studios to do Dylan Ratigan's “Morning Meeting.”

“One question being asked, among many, is whether political correctness stalled the response to possible warning signs from Maj. Hasan,” Ratigan said in his introduction. Ratigan then asked me if there had been “too much tolerance in this instance.”

Too much political correctness in the military? You know, the place where they fire you if you admit you’re gay? The Army has its share of challenges, but in a decade of covering the military, I certainly haven’t come across any evidence that the institution is somehow paralyzed by the burden of gratuitous political correctness. And while that might provide a convenient way for Army officials to explain, anonymously, why nobody prevented Hasan from killing 13 people -- “We are just too afraid of criticizing Muslims” -- I haven’t seen a shred of evidence to suggest this might be true.

The cover of Time magazine depicts another befuddling sideshow to the Fort Hood story. The cover is a picture of Hasan with the word “Terrorist?” over his eyes. “It is a story about why Maj. Hasan is a terrorist,” Time managing editor Richard Stengel explained on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe” one week after the killings.

I’d heard this one before – the debate about whether we should label Hasan a terrorist, or the shooting as an act of terrorism. Right-wing media host Laura Ingraham railed at me on this subject on her radio show this week after I had referred to Hasan as being partly motivated by a “religious thing,” but I had failed to use the word "terrorism." “I say that you won’t call it what it is,” she shouted, “which is terrorism!” (I had called it "Muslim extremism" but that wasn't good enough for Ingraham.)

The obsession with that label “terrorist” seems beside the point. The real question is why the shootings were allowed to occur, and who, exactly, dropped the ball -- not what we call it all afterward.

Stengel explained on "Morning Joe" why he thinks that label is so important that it should grace the cover of his magazine, and he anchored his argument with some of the same tenuous logic I’d tangled with on "Morning Meeting." Once we come to terms with calling Hasan a religiously motivated terrorist, he argued, we can begin to tackle the real reason the Army failed to stop the shootings -- political correctness.

“People in the military say there is a lot of political correctness here,” Stengel explained. “There is a lot of fear of criticizing Muslims in the military and as a result, a guy like Hasan can get promoted up through the ranks. He became a major,” he explained. “I think we need to address this issue.”

In addition, one of Stengel’s key pieces of evidence that Hasan was a terrorist was the following: “This is a man who stood up before he killed people and said ‘God is great’ in Arabic,” Stengel announced.

That may be true, though I’ve been unable to find an original or credible source for this information. The original source seems to be a question from NBC's Matt Lauer to Fort Hood's Lt. Gen. Robert Cone on Nov. 6, the morning after the shootings. Lauer cited a relative of a witness to the shooting claiming that Hasan had said "God is great" in Arabic before opening fire. Cone responded: "There are firsthand accounts here from soldiers that are similar to that." Fort Hood, however, will not confirm this aspect of the story. “We are not at liberty to discuss questions related to this case,” spokesman Chris Haug said in an e-mail when I asked about the "God is great" story. “There is an ongoing investigation.”

Meanwhile, most members of the media continue to ignore the much more mundane, but seemingly more promising, avenues of inquiry that might explain why Hasan got away with murder.

Hasan was a military psychiatrist toiling in an overburdened, desperate Army healthcare system that will hold onto any warm body with a medical degree. Remember the Walter Reed scandal? The horrific treatment of traumatic brain injury and PTSD that has gone on for years? Army medicine has been dropping the ball on these issues for a long time. Given that history, it's not hugely surprising they'd miss warning signs with Hasan and just let him go on being a doctor.

Army medical officials, at least to my knowledge, haven’t been asked even the most basic questions. Why, for example, was Hasan allowed to continue counseling troops suffering stress from combat in Iraq and Afghanistan after, for example, delivering a PowerPoint presentation in June 2007 at Walter Reed warning of “adverse events” if Muslims were forced to kill other Muslims in battle. It’s hard to imagine Hasan being particularly empathetic with his patients. Imagine coming back from Iraq with mental problems from combat, and this is the psychiatrist who is supposed to help you heal? So far, the only reaction from Army medical officials to these issues seems to have been the decision to move him to the war front in Afghanistan, so he could be even closer to the troops when they suffer adverse mental reactions. That’s odd.

As for Hasan getting promoted to major, the Washington Post Thursday suggested a more likely scenario than political correctness. They need more bodies. The Army is short 2,000 majors and the dearth is particularly acute in Army medicine. As the Post put it, “virtually all Army captains are being promoted to major.”

The passionate determination to hang the "terrorist" label on Hasan, or rail against "political correctness" in the military, are just more symptoms of media stars more excited about hot-headed debate than covering the real story. And the real story may be sadly familiar: It looks like Army medicine blew it, once again.

-- By Mark Benjamin

[natisha]

Government run health care at its finest, coming soon to a hospital near you

[WashingtonBay]

I actually agree with his conclusion... It appears he was particularly unsuited for the job he had. And rather than get rid of him.... there is some appearance that Walter Reed merely pawned him off to Fort Hood... moving the problem, making him someone else's problem. That's a problem.


And I actually agree that it's not important, profound, or even helpful to try to label this as terrorism. His ideology will speak to motive, and certainly any ties and contacts he had, or tried to have, with actual terror networks should be explored for our own reasons, but to label this a terror event doesn't change a whole lot, unless perhaps.... because it would make the deaths and injuries received 'combat' injuries qualifying those troops to greater services and honors. I'd consider that, but I'm not sure whether it's applicable or not.

[WashingtonBay]

Government run health care at its finest, coming soon to a hospital near you

Another point that shouldn't be lost.

[Sundays Man]

I know the outcome (or at least hope so) will be the same for Hasan no matter what "tag" we put on his actions. My only concern about sweeping the "terrorist" angle under the rug is that we are only talking about 1 person here and supposedly closing one case. How many more are out there and will raise their head in the future. Whether he is tied to or active with any particular terrorist group is beside the point. It's an idealogy that is prevalent amoung many muslims. I hope we don't make too much of this point and I certainly hope that we don't make to "little" of the point.

They can say that he just snapped and was crazy. I think a better word would be "radical", not crazy. If we go the crazy route, then all terrorist could present a pretty good case for being crazy. As we would descibe or define sane, no terrorist would be considered in their right mind. Why else would they do the things they do? Radicalism and idealogy and lets not forget the 72 virgins. I still can't figure out what's in it for the women who blow themselves up. Think I'll check into that.:rolleyes:

[WashingtonBay]

I can agree with that relevance, Sunday's Man...

[natisha]

lets not forget the 72 virgins..:rolleyes: who soon turn into eternity with 72 ex-girlfriends. Good times

[Sundays Man]

OOOOh, good point Natihsa. Maybe there there is some justice in all this after all. :)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

This backs up Cheval's point:

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/11/12/hasan_coverage/print.html

The media's silly Fort Hood coverage
Everyone wants to debate terrorism and political correctness, but the real story is the failure of Army medicine

By Mark Benjamin

[...]


Nonsense. For somebody who claims to have reported on military matters for ten years, Mr. Benjamin's mind still remains blissfully free of any apparent familiarity with the military. For him to be ignorant of the crippling affects of PC throughout the chain of command-- especially on matters relating to muslims-- undermines his credibility. The mere argument over whether to call this terrorism or not is just another laughable example of that very disease.

An aside: He made Major because he finished his residency. That's how it works for doctors. They don't start at the bottom.

Another aside: I'm not so sure that he was actually treating anyone clinically. He was fairly new to the Psychiatry speciality, having first specialised in Podiatry. I don't know what his actual job was once he got to Ft. Hood. He may indeed have been seeing patients clinically, but I think everyone is just assuming that. There are many other jobs in such a facility. He could have been doing something entirely apart from seeing patients. He was on some policy-review board, for example... there's research positions... so that part of the story might be different than we think.

Moreover, though, I think it's a cheap shot to so reflexively push the blame for this guy's actions back on the Army. One person is responsible: Mr. Hasan. The Army does have a review of policies to do, to figure out how to get any more Hasan's found and removed. But their failure to act on this Hasan is not their fault-- it's ours. It is WE through feckless politicians and liberal media dogmatism that have paralyzed our military by telling them what policies they can and cannot have, on a whole host of topics that are totally unrelated to (and a distraction from) their core mission effectiveness.

The military must have one basic mission: Be the very best in the world at killing people and breaking things. Nothing else. All else is a distraction. The military is not a jobs program. It is not a laboratory for social experimentation. Their only job must be to keep the barbarians outside the gates and it is important that they be really good at it. They should be able to be extremely discriminating in who they allow into their ranks. Whatever best serves the above mission... ignore the rest.

We're the ones that told the Army they must treat Mr. Hasan with kid gloves. We should stop doing that.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

There's a really interesting observation in a recent Mark Steyn column in the OC Register.

The whole column is here:
http://www.ocregister.com/opinion/one-219268-hasan-diversity.html

But the interesting excerpt is this:


"Diversity" is one of those words designed to absolve you of the need to think. Likewise, a belief in "multiculturalism" doesn't require you to know anything at all about other cultures, just to feel generally warm and fluffy about them. Heading out from my hotel room the other day, I caught a glimpse of that 7-Eleven video showing Major Hasan wearing "Muslim" garb to buy a coffee on the morning of his murderous rampage. And it wasn't until I was in the taxi cab that something odd struck me: He is an American of Arab descent. But he was wearing Pakistani dress – that's to say, a "Punjabi suit," as they call it in Britain, or the "shalwar kameez," to give it its South Asian name. For all the hundreds of talking heads droning on about "diversity" across the TV networks, it was only Tarek Fatah, writing in The Ottawa Citizen, who pointed out that no Arab males wear this get-up – with one exception: Those Arab men who got the jihad fever and went to Afghanistan to sign on with the Taliban and al-Qaida. In other words, Maj. Hasan's outfit symbolized the embrace of an explicit political identity entirely unconnected with his ethnic heritage.

Mr. Fatah would seem to be a genuine "multiculturalist": That's to say, he's attuned to often very subtle "diversities" between cultures. Whereas the professional multiculturalist sees the 7-Eleven video and coos, "Aw, look. He's wearing ... well, something exotic and colorful, let's not get hung up on details. Celebrate diversity, right? Can we get him in the front row for the group shot? We may be eligible for a grant."

[Tiz]

I like Mark Steyn. Very sharp, and with humor.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I think his observation about the garb is very astute. Hasan is ethnically Arab (specifically Lebanese, not "palestinian" as has been parroted in the press) but in that video he's wearing a quite specifically Pakistani dress. An Arab would not normally do that. I think he's right on target that this is a curious and meaningful political statement. He's taken sides, and it isn't ours.

[JackieB]

I listened to an interesting article on NPR the other day. They mentioned quite a number of things about the shooter's circumstances that would have caused RocknK to hurl something at the car radio. The reporter's comment were a bit hard for even me to take, but even more interestingly, they never even mentioned the possibility that the shooter might be perfectly sane and rational with no mental problems of any type, but simply committing a terrorist act. It's true enough that we don't know the motive with certainty, but there's enough evidence to at least consider that as part of the discussion.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I listened to an interesting article on NPR the other day. [...]

Well there's yer problem... right there... :)

[Arrow]

I listened to an interesting article on NPR the other day. They mentioned quite a number of things about the shooter's circumstances that would have caused RocknK to hurl something at the car radio. The reporter's comment were a bit hard for even me to take, but even more interestingly, they never even mentioned the possibility that the shooter might be perfectly sane and rational with no mental problems of any type, but simply committing a terrorist act. It's true enough that we don't know the motive with certainty, but there's enough evidence to at least consider that as part of the discussion.

I agree with you, JackieB--totally. Discussions about this should take in all the possibilities. "Oh, it's terrorism," or "Oh, it's a crime created by army problems" are equally problematic on their own--all factors and motivations need to be investigated.

[rocknK]

JB, I don't think my radio gets NPR!!:p Seriously, all the "why's" in the world can't explain away this mans actions. If this man isn't a terrorist then I'm a member of the ACLU!

[Vacker Hast]

I don't believe that a person who continues to become more and more vocal in a negative way while hinting of committing harm or death to others is excusable under mental illness. If you have a mental illness that includes killing other people then that person should be locked up for life or put down like any other animal that became progressively more violent. It begins with thoughts then vocalizing them and then action. Oh I forgot, we can fix them right?

Stacy

[Remali]

I just don't think our military, or our veterans, are getting the support that they need from the government (healthcare, housing, etc).... You hear about so many homeless veterans....
Link below regarding healthcare.... not all qualify for VA care.

http://wcco.com/local/veterans.health.care.2.1306625.html

[Vacker Hast]

I just don't think our military, or our veterans, are getting the support that they need from the government (healthcare, housing, etc).... You hear about so many homeless veterans....
Link below regarding healthcare.... It's sad.

http://wcco.com/local/veterans.health.care.2.1306625.html

I agree but your above quote has nothing to do with this man and his actions.

Stacy

[Remali]

Oh well. I was referring to something I read on this thread a few pages back (p. 4). Sorry Vacker.
I will stay off your thread I guess.....

[Vacker Hast]

Remali,

You bring up a very deserving issue and I do believe alot more needs to be done about that subject. Maybe a new thread to address those issues would be good ... I know many people feel the same way!!!

Sincerely, Stacy

[twofingers]

really long, but worth reading

Wishful Thinking and Indecisive Wars

Ralph Peters

<http://www.securityaffairs.org/site/images/letters/t.png>

[WashingtonBay]

I just don't think our military, or our veterans, are getting the support that they need from the government (healthcare, housing, etc).... You hear about so many homeless veterans....
Link below regarding healthcare.... not all qualify for VA care.

http://wcco.com/local/veterans.health.care.2.1306625.html

The issues of homeless vets, and vets without health insurance is an emotional one, because no one wants to see anyone who was injured in war and disabled by it, or who served with distinction in tough situations, without the basics of care and comfort. The truth is, those are the guys they put down in front for the photo op, but they are not the masses.

BUT the truth is, military service is not, and should not be, a lifetime entitlement program for all who serve... UNLESS they are permanently disabled, or they serve for life and retire with full benefits. And the system has been crippled by trying to make it one. The truth is those who serve and get out after four or 8 years had a job and now need to move on to a new one and the rest of their life. If they have trouble, there is help designed to be available to them, help that the rest of us don't have... education, health benefits for a time, or if they fall below income minimums, but the statistics when you are counting veterans are at the very least bloated, with everyone from the young vet injured by a roadside bomb and disabled, who many times does not really does not want to be considered disabled, to those who are able bodied but have otherwise lost their way after their stint in the military, and need to find a new career and a new way of supporting themselves.The VA is bloated from their own reluctance to make this distinction. They want to cast the widest net they can in the funding debate, but inevitably must narrow it down when it comes time for any of those previously counted to actually get in the door for services. Because stuck in that line, are sometimes the guys we do want to make sure are taken care of.... and they're outnumbered.

[WashingtonBay]

All that ^ serves the side discussion about the VA and army services issues.

Yes, we know those are not factor in this guy's story.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

You're making an important distinction. I served my four years, and got out. I certainly would never expect that to get me a lifetime meal ticket.

For those who are disabled as a result of their service, combat or otherwise, there are programs in place to care for them, and rightfully so. Of course those programs need constant monitoring and re-evaluation to make sure they're doing what needs done, but it is simply unfair to make the allegation that we're not taking care of our vets. For the most part we actually do a pretty fair job. Of course there's bureaucratic nonesense and entanglements-- and that should be attacked where we find it-- but if anybody thinks that a giant government bureaucracy is ever going to NOT act like a giant government bureaucracy, you're just tilting at windmills.

[Remali]

Ragnar.... "I" was not making any allegations.... I was referring to what I had read recently.... here you go if you missed it in my other post...

http://wcco.com/local/veterans.health.care.2.1306625.html

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Hey Remali, I wasn't thinking of you or anyone specifically when I said that. I'm reacting to just the general language that I hear out in the world about care for vets. While of course we need to be vigilant about what is being done for vets, I think many of the attacks out there are unfair.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I think it was earlier on this thread that I wondered aloud if Dr. Hasan was actually even seeing patients in a clinical setting.

Well, now I'm reading that he was in fact counseling returning soldiers. But the new outrage with that is that he was reporting his patients to CID and recommending that war crimes charges be brought against them.

Holy crap. What an outrage! Lord knows what this lunatic in his seventh-century barbarian worldview thought what might constitute a war crime-- beyond that it's a bright, clear, bold italic large font screaming violation of professional ethics for him to do such a thing. But he did it repeatedly!!

This bozo had a huge blinking neon sign over his head saying "Jihadist!!!" with a big arrow pointing down at his head. I really cannot understand how he could have been left in his position. It's the most staggering example of willfull blindness I've ever seen.

[WashingtonBay]

He what? I haven't been following the details on this. Do you have a link for that?

[WashingtonBay]

NVM - found one... from the UK (which says something) Fort Hood shooting: Nidal Malik Hasan sought prosecutions for 'war crimes confessions' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/6585917/Fort-Hood-shooting-Nidal-Malik-Hasan-sought-prosecutions-for-war-crimes-confessions.html)

The only saving grace here is the fact that he was ignored.

But we ignored his ridiculous allegations, so in his righteous indignation he....... killed a bunch of people.

[Sundays Man]

I've missed a lot in the past few days on this topic, but I was surprised this morning to hear AT Holder include the murders at Ft. Hood when naming off acts of terrorism. Maybe I missed the context of his statement, but it sounded to me like he was finally calling this an act of terrorism to me. Caving in to the pressures from the "non-representative" small groups of people like we see at the Tea Parties I guess. :innocent:;)

[Arrow]

Or maybe he waited to get all the facts before making such statements like a good AT should. Nah--that can't be the reason, can it? That would be so...reasonable...professional...that sort of thing.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Or maybe he waited to get all the facts before making such statements like a good AT should. Nah--that can't be the reason, can it? That would be so...reasonable...professional...that sort of thing.

If Holder had a "professional" bone in his body he would have recused himself from any involvement in the disposition of Gitmo detainees due to conflict of interest. His law firm (Covington & Burling, Holder was a partner) has represented (pro bono) at least 18 of the detainees in Gitmo over the years, while he was a partner there.

So now we have an Attorney General who is prosecuting people that his law firm has been defending for several years. In the Senate Judiciary committee meeting today he handed the defense a get-outta-jail-free card by poisoning the prosecution with his prejudicial "failure is not an option" screed. He knows what he's doing. Obama too, has already poisoned the case with his pronouncements of the guilt of the accused. They know what they're doing.

Remember... we're in ordinary Federal Court now, not where we should be, in military court. This stuff matters, and it'll all be replayed in court. Any Federal court now has almost no choice but to grant a motion for dismissal.

There was no Miranda warning. There was no access to a "speedy trial". There is a nationwide broadcast of both the AG and the President of the United States issuing opinions on the presumed guilt of the accused. That's either "poisoning the jury pool" or it is "undue command influence". Either way... it's a ticket to freedom for the bad guys. Let's remember that there was very nearly a mistrial granted in the Charles Manson trial because President Nixon had commented in some press conference that he believed Manson was guilty.

In fact, if the Federal Court in NYC doesn't dismiss the charges against KSM and his henchmen then they will be nothing more than the "kangaroo court" that the left so earnestly wishes to push on the Bush-era doctrines. They really have no choice.

They have to dismiss or they become what they claim to hate.