Contemplating Breeding Sterling. ..

[Equine_Woman]

So as you all know, Sterling is my soul mate. She's the horse that means the most to me and has been there and done that. . . she has a wonderful disposition, and has been sound (other than recent sore feet) her entire life. Sonora is a great horse and is her daughter, she's a little emotional but I'm not entirely sure that isn't from her sire's side.

I've dreamed for years of breeding Sterling to a son of I Love Willie. I had pretty much decided to just breed Sonora when I was ready for another foal but Sonora has locking stifles. I know for a fact that she didn't get them from Sterling. . . and I don't want them passed on so Sonora will not be bred.

Sterling is getting on in age and I was just kicking the idea around out loud to a friend and she offered her Percheron mare as a surrogate. . . So now I've got the bug in my head. I could use Sonora as a surrogate but she is smaller than her Mom and the stud is 16.2. . .I'd be afraid Sonora would be too small not to mention I want to keep using her now that she's being trained. Sunny is out as a surrogate because of temperment. . .

Anyways, I'm just putting it out there in the world so I can see how it really sounds. . .lol. For those who will inevitably come and say, buy don't breed, I fully intend on rescuing again in my life many times, however this baby will be a part of her mother and that is why I would do it. Sonora is a comfort to me because I know I will have her for many years to come even after Sterling is gone. It's a connection I need, not just another horse. Obviously the baby wouldn't be sold, and I've picked a stallion with a pedigree and performance history. This will hopefully be the baby (crossing fingers for a mare) that would be able to keep Sterling's line going for me for my entire life. Sonora was supposed to be that mare but with the fixated patella I won't breed her.

Has anyone done embryo transfer with their mare? I helped perform numerous transfers as a breeding assistant in college so I know what to expect. Although I've never been around a draft transfer receipt mare. . . lol.

[WashingtonBay]

Is it expensive? What's the process for both mares?

[Equine_Woman]

Well it runs from 900 to 2500, depending on where you go, plus breeding fees.

Both mares have to be synchronized with hormones and Sterling would have to be forced to grow multiple eggs and have multiple ovulations. The flush the main mare after ovulation, inseminate and then transfer to the receipt mare. Then a preg check in 15 days. . .

I'm also contemplating just breeding Sterling. She is sound conformationally in her breeding section (not sunk in etc. . .) and it's not her first foal. She had no complications the first time. .. so i'm tossing that idea around in my head as well. . . .

And of course this could all be vetoed if I come to my senses. .lol. J.k.

[WashingtonBay]

I think it's interesting to learn about, I have no idea how it works. How old is Sterling now?

[Equine_Woman]

21 and in excellent health and condition. Being ridden about 15 miles a weekend. . (or was before my R.E. classes started)

[Kara]

I always heard that the foal won't outgrow the womb. (from the minis) we bred a pony (maybe 12 hands) to a full size paint stallion with no problems. I doubt there would be problems unless you're worried about her age and if she can handle the foal afterwards....

[Equine_Woman]

Well I know I wouldn't worry about the foal outgrowing the percheron's womb!!! Yikes!!! lol

[HoustonFarrier]

2S Clydesdales out in Schulenburg has done embryo transfer from Clydes into surrogate Belgian mares. They worked OK, but I thought they were pretty pricey.....I had heard in the 10K range, but I could be mistaken ?

Steve

[WashingtonBay]

Does using a draft mare unnecessarily complicate matters in the event she needs transport and/or treatment for any unintended complication? How accepting is the draft mare's owner of risks? IMHO... while I might do this given a reason like yours, I think I'd want to own the surrogate mare, just to avoid problems in the relationship and in the decision process should something, anything... go wrong.

[Equine_Woman]

2S Clydesdales out in Schulenburg has done embryo transfer from Clydes into surrogate Belgian mares. They worked OK, but I thought they were pretty pricey.....I had heard in the 10K range, but I could be mistaken ?

Steve

It depends on who you know I imagine and where you go. . . prices across the country vary greatly. I wouldn't go to just anyone and I haven't priced it in my area. Not to mention my memory on price is about 10 years old. ;) I can do the sync at home for the most part, if allowed. The repro doc I worked for would likely do the transfer. . . which would mean I'd have to ship the semen.

[Equine_Woman]

Does using a draft mare unnecessarily complicate matters in the event she needs transport and/or treatment for any unintended complication? How accepting is the draft mare's owner of risks? IMHO... while I might do this given a reason like yours, I think I'd want to own the surrogate mare, just to avoid problems in the relationship and in the decision process should something, anything... go wrong.

Definitely something to take into consideration. Wouldn't proceed without a contract. There are a lot of transfer places that have transfer mares for lease. The owner of the Percheron is a great friend. She knows the risks and is educated on the process. But still something that will definitely play into the decision process. As for it being a draft mare I'm not sure if they are as good as a mare of the same size as far as transfers go. I'd have to have a long talk with my old boss!

[Kara]

You could always adopt/rescue a mare and use her...

[Equine_Woman]

But then I'd have another mare. We have a 4 horse limit as a family at the moment. It's a time constraint not a money one, although when we had Mack it was sometimes a money constraint as well!! We have 3 horses right now and if I adopted a mare to use I would never be able to sell her. I don't sell horses.

[Kara]

ahhh I get it.

[Arrow]

Interesting discussion--I have no advice to add, I'm afraid--but am reading with interest!

[Tiz]

Tell us about I Love Willie.

[Equine_Woman]

I drool whenever I see one of his babies! lol. I Love Willie is pensioned now but he has one son from racing lines that is at stud. I'd like to continue the speed line. .

I Love Willie from his website (http://www.texomaappaloosas.com/page/stallions):
http://sample.durantcomputers.com/userFiles/42/image42_pbldil.jpg

I LOVE WILLIE

I LOVE WILLIE holds a Bronze Production Award Sire Award and a Superior Bronze Sire Award



RACE AND STAKES RECORD

ApHC si 100 (total earnings $122,285)
Race career: 14 outs, 9 wins. Retired early due to injury.
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As a racing sire: ILove Willie has sired runners earning $944,657.00


68 starters
46 winners
6 stakes winners
19 stakes placed
22 Register of Merits
9 Champions
4 Supreme Champions
6 Regional Champions
Highest earner: Regal Willie, earnings of $171.905 (See below)



REGAL WILLIE- 103: Supreme Champion Champion, 2-Year-Old Distance Gelding, Champion 3-Year-Old Gelding, 3-Time Bronze Medallion Winner. 14 wins to 7, 6 SW, $171,905, California Coast To Coast S., Los Alamitos S., etc.
MONEY WINNER si 99: Champion 2-Year-Old Distance Gelding. Bronze Medallion Winner. 4 wins to 4, $102,203, Vallejo Juv. F., Star of Stars F., etc.
WHAT PRICE LOVE si 99: Champion 2-Year-Old Distance Filly, Bronze Medallion Winner. 4 wins to 7, $34,907, 3rd Star of Stars F.
THAT'S A LUV BUG si 100: Champion Three-Year-Old Gelding, Bronze Medallion Winner. 3 wins to 4, 2000, $29,914, 2nd Oklahoma Horsemen's Assoc. App & Pt. D. he won third at the 2002 World show in the AGHA Jr. Camas Prairie Stump race.
NEW RECRUIT sr 104: Champion Three-Year-Old Filly, Bronze Medallion Winner, 7 wins to 3 $28,814, 3rd Classy Lassie S.
LADY CHARDONNAY sr 94: Champion 2-Year-Old Distance Filly, Bronze Medallion Winner. 4 wins to 4, $25,021, 3rd Fresno D.
SMOOTH MOVER sr 103: Bronze Medallion Winner. 14 wins to 7, $72,180, 3rd Vallejo Juv. F.
WILLIES BLUE MOON 2002 Supreme Champion, Champion Sprint Gelding AAA $48,00, 2-time Bronze Medallion winner
CHRISTY WILLMAN 2003 Champion 2 year old, Sprint Filly, AAA Bronze Medallion winner
IBELIEVEICANFLY 2004 Supreme Champion 2 year old, Sprint Gelding
MOON UM WILLIE 2005 Leading Sprint Gelding (as of 8-15-05)
WILLIES NEON MOON, 2005 Natonal Ch. HIH. 90 speed index, Winner of the Pony of the Plains App & Paint Derby, '07.
Love Um N Leave Um
Im Already There





As a show horse sire: Willie has sired not only exceptional race horses, but top competitors in multiple classes within the show pen too!

34 Performance Point Earners earning 1,426.4 points
40 Halter performers with 877 points
24 earned 61 Registers of Merit
4 Halter Superior Event Winners -3 with a total of 3 Performance Superior Events
8 Club Champions
3 Versatility Champions
33 Bronze Medallion Winners

"I Love Willie" has proven to be a truly versatility sire!

Due to the size and height of his offspring, most "Willies" go on after their race careers to become top English horses, but many have competed on top levels in western and games. *2005 National Champion Hunter in Hand Yearling Colt "Willies Neon Moon" is currently a winner on the race track and holds a triple A speed index.

Here is a partial listing of some "Willies" you may know from the show pen, (some that have had former racing careers):
Willie Can Dance, Fun Luv, Lovers Lane Lass, Black Jack Willie, Where's Willie, Whichwaywillie, Lovin Cup, Whazzup Willie, WillisintheHouse, Who Do Ya Love, What About Love, Charmin Willlie, Love A Diva, Vision of Love, Willies Conclusion, That's A LuvBug, Willies Blue Moon, My Chantilly, Miss Blue Smoke, Im Like Willie, Raise, Dance Willie Dance, Willies Lovely Lady, Willies Lily, Come On In, Everlasting Love, Higher Love, Aspen Lover, Willies Tatoo, Win Willie Wilya, Count Willie, Give Me the Willies, Willies Mirage, Willies Girlie Girl, Top Dance, etc...
MALE LINE

His Sire, BULL NUNNELEY, Appaloosa Hall of Fame. At: 6 wins at 2, $36,346, Santa Fe F.,2nd World Wide F., Kansas Sunflower Cl. F. Sire of 292 foals, 185 starters, 82 Winners, 30 blacktype borses, 53 ROM, 7 Champions, with earnings of $1,556,467, including WING IT SI 103: Supreme Champion, Champion 2 year.




WING IT si 132: 4-Time Supreme Champion, 5-Time Champion, 5-Time Bronze Medallion Winner, 26 wins to 11, 13 SW, $301,242, Pleasonton H., Calif. Coast to Coast S., etc.


FEMALE LINE

1ST Dam: CEDAR MAI, TB by Cedar Brook, Winner $1,254. Dam of 1 TB foal, unraced; 4 ApHC foals/starters, 3 winners/ROM.
Just Like Willie ApHC si 100 (c. by Bull Nunneley). Subject stallion.
Mr Hit Man ApHC si 82 (g. by Bull Nunneley). 4 wins to 3, $9,084.




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The son I'm interested in is Willies Neon Moon. He won hunter in hand classes as a baby and then went on to have a pretty good racing career. He's 16.2

http://texomaappaloosas.com/userFiles/42/image_desj9o.jpg

[lacyloo]

WOW EW, You have great taste LOL
I love the little black spots and his butt.

[Arrow]

Wowza, great looking stud!

[Equine_Woman]

Well he's not perfect but he's my best bet for the bloodlines I want. . still haven't decided if I'm going to do it. My husband said, "Do whatever you want. .." lol I think I've ruled embryo transfer out though. So if we did it, it'd be Sterling I'd be risking so i've got a lot to think about and a lot to discuss with my vet this spring!! It'd be a massive horse I think. The Willie babies are all TALL and with Sterling at 16 hands and Willies Neon Moon at 16.2 I'm thinking this baby would be taller than Sonora by a long shot. . (Sonora is about 14.3 to 15. I haven't measured her. . . Plus it'd have speed!

[KCandAllegro'sMom]

He's a handsome guy and I love Sterling

[Tiz]

I will probably regret this, so I'll apologize in advance if you weren't interested in opinions.

I don't like him, EW. Do his knees really go every which way, or is the photo not a good representation?

[gabhainn]

I don't like him, EW. Do his knees really go every which way, or is the photo not a good representation?
so it wasnt just me, impressive stats tho, but to my eye something is off. I am the first to admit I know NOTHING about confo, but I know what is appealing to me and he aint, sorry http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/4/4_9_12.gif (http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb001_ZKxdm144YYUS).............Kevin





http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb096&pp=ZKxdm144YYUS (http://www.smileycentral.com/dl/index.jhtml?partner=ZSzeb096_ZKxdm144YYUS&utm_id=7924)

[natisha]

I will probably regret this, so I'll apologize in advance if you weren't interested in opinions.

I don't like him, EW. Do his knees really go every which way, or is the photo not a good representation? It may be due to racing & injuries.

[Tiz]

Racing is strenuous, but injuries due to it are recognizable as such. That's conformation.

[Equine_Woman]

Eh, I'm not basing my decision on one photo that's for sure!! I'll see him in person before I decide. The amount of horses on the ground from his sire that have gone on to a secondary career after racing makes me think it's unlikely the racing injury was due to conformation. And since I don't know where his injury was and haven't seen a good conformation picture of Willies Neon Moon I'm going to withhold my judgment. I don't like his knees in that shot either but it does appear to me that his left leg is where the injury occurred. I do have a background and training in judging conformation (from college) so I'll be able to decide pretty quickly if I'm interested in him conformationally when I first meet him. On paper he is solid. The most important thing is that his build compliment Sterling and give the baby a chance to improve on her faults. I was lucky with Sonora, everything I was trying to correct on her Mother was improved on in her. However there are things I wish she would have gotten from her Mother that she didn't. . . like a longer neck!! You win some, you lose some.

[Tiz]

Sounds like you know what you're doing, and it appears that Willie has a number of sons to consider. Have fun shopping!