Just for fun [Archive] - Baywind Farm Horse Forum

oursarge

11-23-2009, 10:42 AM

What a little cutie! My best friend's horse is the same coloring and he's my favorite horse in her barn, he has the best personality. He's a real clown, he pulls me around by my hood if I am wearing a hood and not giving him attention. If he could I think he'd be in the house,sit on the couch and ask for a beer while watching TV. He bangs the gates because he wants to be in the arena so he doesn't miss anything. I LOVE that horse. I'm sure he looked very similar to this when he was a baby. If this baby has 1/2 of the personality he has there would never be a dull moment at your place.

WP~Paint

11-23-2009, 11:05 AM

He is gorgeous, but I do love my paints!

zoel_222

11-23-2009, 11:17 AM

Oh he is CUUUTE!!

Reinmaker

11-23-2009, 02:42 PM

Halter bred would explain those long straight pasterns and posty legs. Hope you don't want him for a performance horse.

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 02:53 PM

Palogal

11-23-2009, 03:11 PM

Eh... He's a baby. I don't think he's that posty, and pasterns should look too long at that age. (been waiting to say that since a f*gly post last week)

Remember... from birth on, pasterns don't grow much... Everything else will.

He's cute palo... but looking at sites where things are for sale... That's what shopping is ;)

Yeah I know. I'll admit, if I found the one I'd probably buy it. This guy is so freaking cute. I don't want a stallion, although, that's easy enough to fix. I doubt he'll have an address with me any time soon but eh, as I said...just for fun. There are millions of horses for sale here in Texas. Ya never know.

Reinmaker

11-23-2009, 03:20 PM

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 03:23 PM

I'll admit his pasterns do look awfully upright. ;)

Good think I'm not shopping ;)

Kara

11-23-2009, 03:25 PM

I'm not looking to buy but he is really pretty!

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 03:36 PM

I'm not shopping either :p But this guy would fit right in around here:

Well Trained, Half Arabian Gelding For Sale (http://seattle.craigslist.org/oly/grd/1479318834.html)

What's cracking me up about it... is that they took a picture of a picture on their phone. Somebody needs some lessons in getting pictures off loaded and up loaded :D

oursarge

11-23-2009, 03:59 PM

The sad thing is as I mentioned before I don't have to go on line to shop, my friend takes in horses and I fall in love with all of them. She has an App. now that I am so in love with it hurts. He has my Dommie's personality so it's killing me I can't have him. He's really an English Pony, he will go western but he loves to jump and would make someone a real nice jumping pony. I don't ride the ones I have enough and the English thing still doesn't make me stop wanting him. I thought she was putting him through the sale and I told my husband if he goes through the sale and he doesn't bid consider ourselves DIVORCED but she's not putting him through the sale, he's worth alot more than what the people here want to pay for a horse in a sale [She makes sure the people who buy them will give them good homes, if someone brings in a bad looking one she normally buys it to fix]. It's so hard falling in love with these guys and knowing I can't have another. I do fall in love with them all but this guy is a leopard app. like my Dommie and has his sweet personality. It's so hard.

talent06

11-23-2009, 04:16 PM

Washington Bay that arabs tail is gorgeous!

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 04:18 PM

Yeah - I'm not sure where it stops ;)

Remali

11-23-2009, 05:53 PM

Dang Palo, he sure is nice.....sure you don't want him??!!! He doesn't look posty to me at all, and he's a baby yet so he'll grow into those legs too. Love that coloring too.

sugarsgirl

11-23-2009, 06:06 PM

He's cute, I love his coloring.

Palogal

11-23-2009, 06:26 PM

Dang Palo, he sure is nice.....sure you don't want him??!!! He doesn't look posty to me at all, and he's a baby yet so he'll grow into those legs too. Love that coloring too.

Oh sure I want him...doesn't mean I'll buy him ;)

Reinmaker

11-23-2009, 06:41 PM

Dang Palo, he sure is nice.....sure you don't want him??!!! He doesn't look posty to me at all, and he's a baby yet so he'll grow into those legs too. Love that coloring too.

What makes him so nice? Can you expound on that? Is it his breeding? Can you point out some conformational things you like about him? You say he isn't posty, what do you see that makes you think that? I'm curious what you see in this horse, cause I don't see much of anything but color.

Color is about the worst way to pick a horse and a big reason so many horses with color are conformational nightmares, people just keep breeding for color and ignoring all the real reasons a horse should be bred. Now I am not just picking on this particular horse talking in general now.

If we can get past all the he is cute cause he is horse, yes we all think horses are good looking creatures that have endearing qualities, but the brass tacks of it is lots of horses are not put together well and are not destined to be anything but average at best.

Palo is a "trainer" so I have to assume she would want this horse to compete in something under saddle. So what about this horse makes her think this horse will do so? It isn't his halter breeding. Really, I see these threads all the time and not once have I seen anything that impresses me or makes me think anything other than "not going to be anything special".

I don't mean to sound harsh and I know it does but seriously what is the point of average horses for someone who is trying to compete at a professional level. I totally get a regular person out for a nice campanion horse to trail ride or have some leisure time and fun with. That is a totally different thing. And even someone who wants to really trail ride would have to think twice about a horse with posty legs that is prone to leg problems later in life.

So what is it? Someone explain it to me. WB maybe you can help me? You have a way with these kinds of things that make them make sense.

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 06:49 PM

Well, thanks for thinking I have a way :) but I'm not a stock horse gal by experience, I'm an Arab gal.... and beyond that I think it's really hard to give meaningful conformation critiques of babies, except to say they're cute. He's got a nice head and neck and looks like he'll be a flashy guy, and his photographer appears to list about 10 degrees to starboard... beyond that, I am hesitant to say. ;)

I appreciate your critique that you find him posty. I might have thought his rear end looked pretty good in QH terms. If you want to give a fuller critique of what you see, please do, for all our benefit... Live and learn :)

Palogal

11-23-2009, 07:00 PM

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 07:01 PM

I figured out what they did there.... I think it was freeze frame on video... they either don't know how to grab a screen cap from video, or they don't have the software... so they took a picture of it. Either way... it needs work ;)

Palogal

11-23-2009, 07:04 PM

Since I'm not an arab person....is it normal for him to carry his tail that high? I've seen them in pics with their tails that high, but I didn't think that was a normal way to travel unless the tail bone has been broken like some folks to do gaited horses.

Remali

11-23-2009, 07:05 PM

Most Arabs carry their tails really high..... my gelding carried his very high all the time, whereas my mare carried her tail a bit lower. Arab people don't break the tail bone (or, well, not as far as I know....).

Reinmaker

11-23-2009, 07:06 PM

WB, I whole heartedly agree that youngsters are harder to critique conformation on. They go through so many awkward phases. When looking at a youngster for a performance prospect the first and wisest thing to do is look at their breeding top AND bottom.

Now this horse I don't know the bottom but I looked up his daddy. Halter ROM in APHA. That means nothing nada squat to a rider, or at least it shouldn't except for maybe a big warning sign. Stock horse halter took a dire turn for the worse in the 70's and rarely do good halter horses make good riding/performance horses. That is a whole other topic, but suffice to say what stock horse judges look for in halter horses is not what riders look for.

So one major strike.

Now conformationally looking knowing already he is halter bred I see upright pasterns and really straight hocks, he even looks like he might tend to be over at the knee, but the pictures aren't great.

The hip doesn't look bad, but the angle of his shoulder looks pretty upright.

So it goes back to what we do know, which is his breeding. Nothing particular stands out as overly desirable when it comes to conformation and nothing in his breeding says he will be a good performance and riding horse so why would a "professional" be interested? Makes no sense to me.

Palogal

11-23-2009, 07:07 PM

That Crabbett I had carried high but not like that, he's about straight up. He would run like that in the pasture sometimes.

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 07:09 PM

Palo - Yeah - that's normal... It looks a little funny because it's braided. Sometimes that makes them carry it funny too. If you look at my pic of Bay running on my thread from today (Nice blanket-off day! (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13384)), it's just as high and looks just as funny because it's also braided.

It wouldn't look so weird if it was down. :)

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=407

FWIW, I'd cut off the long tail at the fetlock. I don't like tails that drag.

Remali

11-23-2009, 07:10 PM

I'm a firm believer in looking at the horse itself..... if I like the horse.... it doesn't matter who his sire and dam are and what his bloodlines are or are not. You don't ride the papers.

Palogal

11-23-2009, 07:11 PM

That looks normal....I didn't notice the other one was braided. I trim mine at the fetlock too, I would think it would be painful if it were to be stepped on :)

Remali

11-23-2009, 07:13 PM

My gelding and his tail....LOL. He sometimes had it even higher.....

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/Remali24/meandDanatKGRanch-1.jpg

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 07:14 PM

Stock horse halter took a dire turn for the worse in the 70's and rarely do good halter horses make good riding/performance horses. That is a whole other topic, but suffice to say what stock horse judges look for in halter horses is not what riders look for.

It is a whole nuther topic indeed. It makes no sense to me, what they've done.

Thanks for your eye and critique :)

Reinmaker

11-23-2009, 07:14 PM

I'm a firm believer in looking at the horse itself..... if I like the horse.... it doesn't matter who his sire and dam are and what his bloodlines are or are not. You don't ride the papers.

When judging babies for performance prospects it is absurd not to look at their parentage. I am all for a great horse that makes it that doesn't have the top blood lines but they are few and far between and I mean really far between. It is hard enough to get a great horse out of a prospect when everything is good, bloodlines, conformation, disposition. You create almost insurmountable odds when you are missing one or more of the parts.

Palogal

11-23-2009, 07:28 PM

My gelding and his tail....LOL. He sometimes had it even higher.....

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c91/Remali24/meandDanatKGRanch-1.jpg

He's very pretty :)

WashingtonBay

11-23-2009, 07:33 PM

Reinmaker... do you happen to have a pic of a nice well-bred performance youngster we can compare?

GrungeEquestrian

11-23-2009, 07:44 PM

Stock horse halter took a dire turn for the worse in the 70's and rarely do good halter horses make good riding/performance horses. That is a whole other topic, but suffice to say what stock horse judges look for in halter horses is not what riders look for.
Amen. It's a sad thing when you see these horses with huge stocky frames and the tiniest feet. My aunt bought a 6 month old Appaloosa filly some 5 years ago. Nice looking filly at the time, but has huge halter lines. She is now close to 1200 pounds with smaller feet than my 980 pound Quarter Horse racing blood BS Paint mare. She is unbroke and honestly I couldn't see her staying sound if she was, but put her in a halter class and she wins every time.

I think the colt is cute, I love his markings, but I know only basics of confo...so looking at youngsters is out.

Reinmaker... do you happen to have a pic of a nice well-bred performance youngster we can compare?
That could be educational and easier to understand.

Palogal

11-23-2009, 07:53 PM

Some of the halter horses at World APHA looked freaky like that. Built like a rhinoceros with teeny tiny feet.

Reinmaker

11-23-2009, 08:00 PM

Here's one. This is a yearling by Wimpy's Little Step out of a NRHA money earning mare. He's even yeller. LOL And he is for sale.

XshadowfoxX

11-23-2009, 08:29 PM

Im blinded by color!! Baby is cute though, Id like to see him grown up.

Palogal

11-23-2009, 08:38 PM

Im blinded by color!! Baby is cute though, Id like to see him grown up.

Me too! However explaining to my husband why I have to have him and hopefully enter World APHA next winter might be a tough one. :)

WashingtonBay

11-24-2009, 06:57 AM

Here's one. This is a yearling by Wimpy's Little Step out of a NRHA money earning mare. He's even yeller. LOL And he is for sale.

OK - thanks... Nice colt. In fairness he is also a lot more mature than the first one :)

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 07:23 AM

Here is one from our farm. He is ten months old here. Not a conformation shot but you can see his development at a young age.

BTW he is by Tinsel Nic (164,000 in NRHA earnings) out of Chic O' Lana ($40,000 in NRHA earnings) by Smart Chic Olena.

WashingtonBay

11-24-2009, 07:44 AM

Ah - I wish there was a rear-end conformation shot of that one... he'd be a good comparison.

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 08:00 AM

Well I would go get one for you except he is a long yearling now, and he is a lot bigger. :) He has it all though, nice conformation, good disposition, and his breeding doesn't get any better. Both his mom and his dad were top level performers at the professional level, his mom's dad is one of the greatest performance horse sires of all time.

See that is the point I am making, like you said conformation is tough on these youngsters so the best place to look is at the parents. What do the parents look like, and more importantly what have they done. Genetics is a pretty darn good indicator of what you are going to get. Now this colt here, Nic, he is going to be a reiner, no doubt about that. He will make a reining horse, the only question is how good. Will he be a non-pro horse, an open(professional) horse and if he is an open horse is he a NRHA futurity contender. Time will tell, but come January it sure is going to be fun to get the process started. This colt is at least starting with all the foundations neccessary to achieve a NRHA futurity contender so he is way ahead of the game.

In all fairness both of these horses I posted are in a completely different league from the one palo posted. So neither is really a "fair" comparison, but that was the point right? So I ask again why as a "professional" would one be looking at average at best horses. It is pretty obvious I am not going to get an answer at this point, but hey I am just hard enough headed to keep askin'. ;)

WashingtonBay

11-24-2009, 08:47 AM

Well, Reinmaker... I was more interested in the practicalities of accurately evaluating youngsters than the battle of egos or whatever kind of 'gotcha moment' you were after here ;) but I think you would agree that high level prospective jobs like money-winning futurity competition demands a higher level of scrutiny. And a higher price.

I shouldn't speak for palo, but I believe she shows locally for fun, gives lessons and trains a few pleasure horses on the side. It's without insult at all to palo when I say you're talking about a whole nuther level than she is, or than I am. You look for prospects as near to perfect as you can get, try to make money on them, sell them for a high price, and look for another. I don't know, but I believe, she takes in a horse for training that belongs to someone else and needs work to do it's job of being a trail horse or local hobby show horse. I take in a horse who I will bond with and keep for life, and we do whatever the horse, and hubby and I, can and want to do.

Different motivations, required shopping in different stores... or at least, different parts of the store. :) My two horses would be of no value to you at all, and wouldn't have even when they were young. And neither even have terrific conformation for their breed or their selected job. That Bay is still sound and still runnin' at 28 is a testament, really to careful handling much of his life, a good measure of luck, and to the idea that sometimes, just sometimes, the results show that some horses can go their whole lives without knowing they were limited by their imperfect bodies. He ran endurance and carried heavy riders a lot of miles with his, and he's still going. - Bless his heart. :) I doubt you have many of those, hard sport like you do will break down even the perfect ones.

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 09:05 AM

Not seeking a gotcha moment. The difference in a well bred performance prospect was in itself going to create a different level of horse. That is the point I was making.

Just to clarify we don't really look for prospects for ourselves, we look for them for clients.

Sundays Man

11-24-2009, 09:12 AM

http://dallas.craigslist.org/dal/grd/1467047920.html

I do have the space although I'm not really shopping....

I'm with you palo. I like him and would love to add him to my herd. I don't care if he has a tooth 1/8 inch out of alignment or anything.

WashingtonBay

11-24-2009, 09:13 AM

:) fair enough!

The difference in a well bred performance prospect was in itself going to create a different level of horse. That is the point I was making.

And I'd love to see more detail on how to differentiate between average and great in a prospect. Particularly young ones.

Palogal

11-24-2009, 09:25 AM

I shouldn't speak for palo, but I believe she shows locally for fun, gives lessons and trains a few pleasure horses on the side. It's without insult at all to palo when I say you're talking about a whole nuther level than she is, or than I am. You look for prospects as near to perfect as you can get, try to make money on them, sell them for a high price, and look for another. I don't know, but I believe, she takes in a horse for training that belongs to someone else and needs work to do it's job of being a trail horse or local hobby show horse. I take in a horse who I will bond with and keep for life, and we do whatever the horse, and hubby and I, can and want to do.

That's correct. I have a real job too.

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 09:31 AM

bloodlines.;)

Every prospect is a crapshoot WB. If it was easy to pick them everyone would be a winner. :)

From there it is just like looking at any other horse (albeit more difficult because they are still growing and can be in awkward phases). First you look for things that disqualify it from the job you want it to perform, then go from that to things that appeal, then you watch them move. That is a biggie. How do they use themselves naturally.

Couple last points I will make on your last post and I will try to stop beating this dead "prospect".

Just to clarify we don't really look for prospects for ourselves, we look for them for clients. Clients buy them and put them in training. Most of the prospects that come in to training will be shown by us at the professional level if they are good enough at least through the futurity and possibly derby years, and then go on to be breeding stock or non-pro horses for the clients or sold. The ones that don't make it as open level horses can immediately become non-pro mounts or will be sold as a non-pro mount.

The reason I asked the question is Palo says she is a trainer, that makes her a professional. If this horse is for her the horse is going to have to become a professional level horse right? That is where the confusion for me comes in. A professional seeking a prospect shouldn't be looking at halter bred weanlings/yearlings. It makes no sense.

You also said fun local shows, great, no big deal pretty much anything can do that, but Palo keeps mentioning worlds. She even did it in this thread about THIS horse. Now qualifying for a world show isn't very hard, just get to enough shows with enough horses in the classes and you get the points you need, but to compete at world you need a decent horse. So why try to start from the worst possible scenario? Again it doesn't make sense.

And truthfully your part of the equation doesn't really fit in because of exactly what you described. You are a seeking a pleasure, trail, campanion for life. That is a completely different ball game and one I would not and am not questioning.

oursarge

11-24-2009, 09:34 AM

Well said WB. I know NOTHING about conformation. My girl has papers, I guess she has some great relatives, I know nothing about them, I don't even know where the papers are. I care nothing about them, I've been told she has real good conformation, I wouldn't know all's I know is that we love her and she'll be ours for life. My little Sarge is a mix of God knows what, we think 1/4 Horse/Haflinger and he had uveitis, we love him doesn't matter. I am always looking for a cure so far haven't found anything that really helps but bute and eye ointment, he has a home here forever. I hate to think what someone else who didn't think he was worth anything would do. Rompy is a Colonial Spanish, they all look odd but again we love him. We're not and never were looking for anything from them but good personalities.

I know someone who has a champion Western Pleasure horse with papers that are supposed to make people's head spin if they know about things like that. He's the most miserable horse I've ever met, will rip your head off if he's in the mood. The only thing I am looking for is personality. I've had people at the stable show me their horses great pedigrees, I tell them that's nice, I guess they expect more. I don't know what they're talking about and I honestly don't care, again the horses have lousy personalities which means I wouldn't want them if I was given them. My guys will come in the house and watch TV if allowed, that's the kind of horse I'm looking for. Friendly and fun loving and healthy, nothing else matters. Papers don't mean a thing to me because I'm not doing what others are. I know they mean something to others, great but I'm not looking to show or to make money so I guess that's the difference. I just want a companion that has 4 legs and a tail.

Palogal

11-24-2009, 09:36 AM

I'm with you palo. I like him and would love to add him to my herd. I don't care if he has a tooth 1/8 inch out of alignment or anything.

LOL, yeah he's cute. I'm a sucker for a long legged paint. I don't have a job for him at the moment, but if I did, he'd by here already.

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 09:38 AM

Oursarge or anyone else please don't take any of the comments I have made personally. I have tried to distinguish that I am talking about two different types of buyers/owners here. I would never question anyone's personal horse that they have as a companion, pleasure mount. That is a completely different conversation based on on completely different criteria as you stated.

Sundays Man

11-24-2009, 09:38 AM

Lest we forget, Palo entitled this thread "Just for Fun" after all :). However, I must say thanks to Reinmaker for all the info. Knowledge is good, as is wisdom.

Palogal

11-24-2009, 09:45 AM

I know someone who has a champion Western Pleasure horse with papers that are supposed to make people's head spin if they know about things like that. He's the most miserable horse I've ever met, will rip your head off if he's in the mood. The only thing I am looking for is personality. I've had people at the stable show me their horses great pedigrees, I tell them that's nice, I guess they expect more. I don't know what they're talking about and I honestly don't care, again the horses have lousy personalities which means I wouldn't want them if I was given them. My guys will come in the house and watch TV if allowed, that's the kind of horse I'm looking for. Friendly and fun loving and healthy nothing else matters. Papers mean nothing to me but if they mean something to others, great but I'm not impressed.

Eventers also don't care a whole lot about papers. Crosses are pretty popular eventing horses - a hot blood for dressage and a cold blood for bone and strength for example. Lots of folks event on purebred TB's if they have enough bone to stay sound for XC and such. Eventers don't usually brag on "Lena" breeding and stuff like that because the three phases require a different kind of horse. I'm hoping when my mare starts to event for real next year she will do well. She is a granddaughter of Cherokee Indian (race horse) and also Colonel Freckes (cutter). So visually, she has decent size, a lot of speed and agility. If I were to breed her for another prospect I would pick a sire with a little more height and jump, probably a TB.

Most diciplines don't breed like that, they prefer straight Qh's or something like that and brag on the bloodline.

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 10:26 AM

Palo you keep making your little comments that are obviously meant as swipes. Why don't you have the guts to address me directly?

Most diciplines don't breed like that, they prefer straight Qh's or something like that and brag on the bloodline.

Wrong, it has nothing to do with bragging. It has to do with showing the genetic predisposition for doing the job you want them to perform.

Kara

11-24-2009, 10:32 AM

She was saying how cute the horse was, then you started picking the horse apart. Seriously come on!

Palogal

11-24-2009, 10:44 AM

She was saying how cute the horse was, then you started picking the horse apart. Seriously come on!

He has a similar pattern to Bailey does he? Wasn't he an overo?

Kara

11-24-2009, 10:52 AM

He has a similar patter to Bailey does he? Wasn't he an overo?

Very much so. 16 hands at 2, and halter bred, and had plenty of halter point himself as a weanling. They are using him as a roping horse. Guess he'll fall apart when he's what 4?

Palogal

11-24-2009, 10:54 AM

Very much so. 16 hands at 2, and halter bred, and had plenty of halter point himself as a weanling. They are using him as a roping horse. Guess he'll fall apart when he's what 4?

He's roping? Cool! I always wanted to try roping....no where to put the rope :(

Kara

11-24-2009, 10:57 AM

He's roping? Cool! I always wanted to try roping....no where to put the rope :(

tried it. Roped bud, me, and his legs... wasnt going to try that again :innocent:

Yeah he was sold to some guy in south texas near shiner. the guy sent me one email and updated me. havent heard anything since. That would been a good jumping horse, but he was so lazy :rolleyes:

Kara

11-24-2009, 11:12 AM

Found a picture of him as a two year old...

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/Runbabyrun_photo/baileybeinggood.jpg

Palogal

11-24-2009, 11:14 AM

Yep...broke down at 4 lol :) I always thought he was cute, probably wouldn't have kicked him out of the pasture. ;)

Kara

11-24-2009, 11:17 AM

paid 500 and was offered 2500 after 30 days.. yeah I'm happy he was taken out...

Sort of, kind of, keeping my eye out for a replacement for bud..... something cheap, don't need papers, don't care what color, and has qh in this horse (no a-rab), wanting to trade rum. She's too much of a bulldog for me

oursarge

11-24-2009, 11:43 AM

I'd love to meet that little guy and see if he has the personality of Dylan, they look so much alike they could be related.

Reinmaker I know what you are saying but so many of us on here just have horses, maybe they are rescues or we got them because we loved them no other reason. 2 of mine are rescues, one a preservation horse. Rompy has HOA Registration Papers but I don't think he's from any champion lines, his ancestors were wild. I understand if you want to go on to do the big things you need a horse with a great pedigree and why my friends have the champion Western Pleasure horse and he does his job, he wins all kinds of things but he's a mean horse. So many of those I have met have horrid personalities. One guy at the barn is always going on and on about his horse's pedigree, I swear that's the only reason he bought her since he spends almost no time with her but he carries her papers with him so he can show people! She is a miserable horse, she has no problem at all trying to kick your head off or she will rear at a person. She does like him though so it's a good match when he spends time with her. I love horses and she is a beautiful horse but she is scary. He doesn't care about that though he's always sticking those papers in people's faces. He keeps them in a folder in his car! I guess that's why I sound a little defensive, don't mean to be but he will then ask about my horse who he tried to buy and I tell him that from what I've been told she has great ancestors but I don't know who they are and I can't even show him the papers because I don't know where I stuck them. The biggest thing for me is that I took a horse that used to run 1/2 a mile away from me to a horse that breaks away from the herd to come see me, who ever had her before must not have cared about her papers either, they sure didn't care about her, when my friend rescued her she was almost starving and scared to death, I won't even show pictures of her when we first got her because she looked so awful. To me the fact that she trusts me now is what it's all about. I am not doing anything special with her though, I know that when you are doing special things then the pedigrees matter and that's what people look for to see if there are good bloodlines there. My friends were at one point looking for a good reining horse and were only looking at horses with very good bloodlines, there is nothing wrong with that. I think I just get upset when people [Not saying you but people like that guy at our barn] shove the papers at you like we should all be impressed but then everything he does is meant to impress from his house to his cars to his horse and he looks down on the horses that are different, I think his first ? is usually "Is it registered?" and no matter what the answer he shoves her papers at people! There is a lady there who does the same thing so between the both of them they can make you nuts!

WashingtonBay

11-24-2009, 11:56 AM

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 12:22 PM

I think he understands the difference between pleasure owners and pro competitors.

We're just different. Hubby does a web site for a local dressage facility that sells babies and horses in the 5 and 6 figure range. I have a hard time believing they have the same hobby I do ;) It's not even the same universe. Yeah - they have to be very very picky on the details. Much more so than most of us.

I do in fact understand the difference.

FWIW: That wimpy colt I pictured has a price tag of $25,000. The other baby is kind of sort of for sale, not really advertising him, for $20,000.

Oursarge, I totally understand where you are coming from. You don't sound defensive and I certainly wanted to make it clear that I was not knocking horses just because they don't have an all star pedigree. My comments were focused on picking prospects for a future as a professional level competitor.

Palogal

11-24-2009, 01:33 PM

I think he understands the difference between pleasure owners and pro competitors.

We're just different. Hubby does a web site for a local dressage facility that sells babies and horses in the 5 and 6 figure range. I have a hard time believing they have the same hobby I do ;) It's not even the same universe. Yeah - they have to be very very picky on the details. Much more so than most of us.

World APHA and QH Congress and such aren't purely professional shows. There are lots of trainers that compete in them as well as most that are not. A Tru Rolex has been to APHA World as well as Color Me Smart in his day but there are more no name APHA registered horses there than anything else, even, <gasp> breeding stock paints.

My neighbors compete at World APHA every year. She's a teacher, he's a doctor and our children play together. They have won two world titles with their mares and are going for more. They are not trainers. Although they do have a spectacular groom (me :) ) they are just folks.

His mare is a half sister to mine. The horses are first and foremost backyard pets. They lead family around on them, play day with them and sort cattle at the Cowboy Church.

Big shows are not just for pros.

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 01:44 PM

palomino

11-24-2009, 01:45 PM

I do in fact understand the difference.

FWIW: That wimpy colt I pictured has a price tag of $25,000. The other baby is kind of sort of for sale, not really advertising him, for $20,000.

Oursarge, I totally understand where you are coming from. You don't sound defensive and I certainly wanted to make it clear that I was not knocking horses just because they don't have an all star pedigree. My comments were focused on picking prospects for a future as a professional level competitor.

Holy crap. I really liked the palo until I read that!!

Palogal

11-24-2009, 01:52 PM

Holy crap. I really liked the palo until I read that!!

Oh, to have more money than brains ;)

palomino

11-24-2009, 02:01 PM

Man, if I had that much money to spend on a horse, could you imagine my TRUCK?? Man I was thinking 5k was alot to spend on a jumping prospect. And most of them are bay or gray!!

palomino

11-24-2009, 02:01 PM

LOL I said man twice.

WashingtonBay

11-24-2009, 02:02 PM

That is true of almost every show. I have shown at the QH Congress as a non-pro as well as many other major shows. Most of the competitors at World (be that QH or Paint) and Congress are not professionals. They are amateurs/non-pros. Most do have professional trainers they ride with.

That's also true of the Arab show circuit. I won't say it's easy to get in, but if you have the money to buy a halfway decent horse and enough bling to get in the ribbons, you can qualify. I qualified but was never able to go, to Arab Nationals.

Alright... I think I'll try to encourage an end to this little 'thing' between you and Palo, Reinmaker... She obviously doesn't want to play, at least outwardly. I don't think she's sold herself as a pro in the way you're thinking, or in the way you define yourself... she gives some lessons, that doesn't mean she can or wants to afford $20,000 babies... she's just this gal, you know, and she thought the little painted colt was cute. :)

If though, you'd like to write an article with pics getting more into the details of how to distinguish between a $500 colt, $5,000 colt, and a $25,000 one, I'd love that kind of meaty content. :)

palomino

11-24-2009, 02:05 PM

mmmmmmmmm meaty.....

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 02:33 PM

That's also true of the Arab show circuit. I won't say it's easy to get in, but if you have the money to buy a halfway decent horse and enough bling to get in the ribbons, you can qualify. I qualified but was never able to go, to Arab Nationals.

Alright... I think I'll try to encourage an end to this little 'thing' between you and Palo, Reinmaker... She obviously doesn't want to play, at least outwardly. I don't think she's sold herself as a pro in the way you're thinking, or in the way you define yourself... she gives some lessons, that doesn't mean she can or wants to afford $20,000 babies... she's just this gal, you know, and she thought the little painted colt was cute. :)

If though, you'd like to write an article with pics getting more into the details of how to distinguish between a $500 colt, $5,000 colt, and a $25,000 one, I'd love that kind of meaty content. :)

Point taken, but a pro is a pro by the rules of QH, APHA, NRHA, and so on.

That article would be short- bloodlines. HAHA Really I can't hammer the point home enough, prospects are just that, prospects and the best determination of whether they can do the job is bloodlines. Then you see if they pass the eye test. Do they have the look and eye appeal. Then to confo. You look for disqualifiers, ewe necked, straight hocks, shoulder angle, upright pasterns, etc...We already talked about how it can be difficult to get a handle on this with a youngster. So a big thing is watch them go. How do they move? Then you go to disposition, but even here you can't put a lot of stock in the disposition of a baby. Most horses have to be taught a work ethic whether that means cooling out a hot one or sparking up a lazy one. I'd hate to have to stake my reputation on picking weanlings or yearlings blind, once they hit 2 and get under saddle things become a lot less complicated, and it is still a crap shoot.

mmmmmmmmm meaty.....

HAHA, that reminded me of the show The Soup---Chat Stew ---sooooo meaty.

Palogal

11-24-2009, 02:35 PM

That's also true of the Arab show circuit. I won't say it's easy to get in, but if you have the money to buy a halfway decent horse and enough bling to get in the ribbons, you can qualify. I qualified but was never able to go, to Arab Nationals.

The only qualifying for APHA World is papers and Coggins. There are qualifications for certain titles - like "all around" has to enter in certain classes but in general, anyone who owns an APHA registered horse may enter the show - winning is a totally different ball game. It's an expensive entry, which limits the entries to it. It's not entering the show that matters is winning and getting points for your horse. I guess they figure if you're going to spend 150 bucks a class you have a decent horse to compete with.

My mare will have open show experience and hopefully a recognized event or two this summer if show season isn't completely rained out like it was this year :(

Kara

11-24-2009, 02:36 PM

Point taken, but a pro is a pro by the rules of QH, APHA, NRHA, and so on.

That article would be short- bloodlines. HAHA Really I can't hammer the point home enough, prospects are just that, prospects and the best determination of whether they can do the job is bloodlines. Then you see if they pass the eye test. Do they have the look and eye appeal. Then to confo. You look for disqualifiers, ewe necked, straight hocks, shoulder angle, upright pasterns, etc...We already talked about how it can be difficult to get a handle on this with a youngster. So a big thing is watch them go. How do they move? Then you go to disposition, but even here you can't put a lot of stock in the disposition of a baby. Most horses have to be taught a work ethic whether that means cooling out a hot one or sparking up a lazy one. I'd hate to have to stake my reputation on picking weanlings or yearlings blind, once they hit 2 and get under saddle things become a lot less complicated, and it is still a crap shoot.

Ain't that what you look for with ALL young horses you want to raise?:innocent:

difference again from a 500 to 25000 plz?
nvm- its the pocket book

WashingtonBay

11-24-2009, 02:41 PM

Ah palo - I see... You have to win in performance at an Arab breed show to qualify for regionals, and from there I don't remember if you had to win or just place at regionals to move up.

At Arab shows, there were specific Amateur classes, but Open was Open and most good amateurs entered both. There wasn't a specific pro class.

It's been twenty years since I was in that world and it's a bit fuzzy for me now.

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 02:41 PM

Ain't that what you look for with ALL young horses you want to raise?:innocent:

difference again from a 500 to 25000 plz

That is easy, you actually get what your looking for with the $25,000 one.;) As a side note one doesn't have to spend that much to get a nice prospect, but you are going to have to spend some money if you want to increase your odds of having a performer.

Palogal

11-24-2009, 02:43 PM

Kara

11-24-2009, 02:44 PM

That is easy, you actually get what your looking for with the $25,000 one.;)

:innocent: Still don't know 100% if its going to turn out.... ;)

rather be out 500 then 24500

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 02:44 PM

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 02:47 PM

:innocent: Still don't know 100% if its going to turn out.... ;)

rather be out 500 then 24500

Like I said before it is a crapshoot either way otherwise everyone could pick a winner. However your odds go way way up the better you do with those criteria and supply and demand dictates that those prospects are more spendy.

Another note you will almost be guaranteed to be out $500 if you go the other way, but not just $500, a $500 horse costs the same as a $10,000 or any price horse, to vet, shoe, feed, train and show. So when dealing with prospects better to spend as much as you can afford up front cause that is the least of your cost, not to mention resale. That $25,000 barring injury is going to make a good riding horse at some level, the $500 you could spend all that money training, showing, vetting, shoeing and not even get your $500 back out of them.

Kara

11-24-2009, 02:49 PM

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 03:01 PM

But looking at the picture of mine. That horse was 500 dollars, just have to find a deal.

I wasn't even beginning to talk about feed and what-not because everyone that wants a horse will have to pay all those things.

Right everyone has to pay those things. So if I am advising a client on a prospect why am I going to have them spend that kind of money on upkeep and training for a horse whose odds are slim to none of ever being what they want it to be? They are throwing there money away.

Sure there are deals out there. Love em when you can find them. I am not advocating everyone needs to spend $25,000 on a horse to be able to win. I am not crazy. However, if you want good bloodlines, good confo and a good mover you are going to pay for it. That is just the way it is. That could mean $5,000 up to $200,000+. Those prices probably go down for other more generalized and less difficult disciplines. I used reining prospects cause that is the world I know the best. I am (now) talking about horses who need to go on to professional level competition in a highly specialized discipline or even high level amateur competition.

A finished reiner that can show in the upper non-pro levels is going to be worth 30,000 plus. A finished reiner that can show in professional levels is going to be worth 40-50,000 plus. That is just the going rate. I don't set the prices.

Now we have some really nifty horses at our barn that show in some of the lower levels that were purchased for between $15,000 and $25,000. We have some prospects that were steals based on their breeding and confo. So again yeah you can find good deals, but generally speaking the prices are what they are all things being equal.

Kara

11-24-2009, 03:08 PM

Right everyone has to pay those things. So if I am advising a client on a prospect why am I going to have them spend that kind of money on upkeep and training for a horse whose odds are slim to none of ever being what they want it to be? They are throwing there money away.
;)

Sure there are deals out there. Love em when you can find them. I am not advocating everyone needs to spend $25,000 on a horse to be able to win. I am not crazy.
but your making it out that if you don't spend 25000 on a horse you don't have a horse worth having

However, if you want good bloodlines, good confo and a good mover you are going to pay for it. That is just the way it is. That could mean $5,000 up to $200,000+. Those prices probably go down for other more generalized and less difficult disciplines.

my old reining horse was one of the best. We had to pay to play. But he is better then my others nope!

A finished reiner that can show in the upper non-pro levels is going to be worth 30,000 plus. A finished reiner that can show in professional levels is going to be worth 40-50,000 plus. That is just the going rate. I don't set the prices.
I know that, paid a very pretty penny for Britches. Or parents did for me when I was 14.

Now we have some really nifty horses at our barn that show in some of the lower levels that were purchased for between $15,000 and $25,000. We have some prospects that were steals based on their breeding and confo. So again yeah you can find good deals, but generally speaking the prices are what they are all things being equal.

mhm

Reinmaker

11-24-2009, 03:54 PM

;)

Meaning? My point is I see people all the time spending a fortune on training, showing, and general upkeep with crappy horses. It is pointless. Bite the bullet spend some money up front and at least be competitive. The carry cost is the same either way. Again this is for people who want to show competitively.

but your making it out that if you don't spend 25000 on a horse you don't have a horse worth having

No I am not. I specifically said:

I am not advocating everyone needs to spend $25,000 on a horse to be able to win. I am not crazy. However, if you want good bloodlines, good confo and a good mover you are going to pay for it. That is just the way it is. That could mean $5,000 up to $200,000+.

my old reining horse was one of the best. We had to pay to play. But he is better then my others nope!

You are going to have to be more specific than that. Like what you mean by "one of the best" and what you mean by not better than your others. Better at what? That is all very vague.

I know that, paid a very pretty penny for Britches. Or parents did for me when I was 14.

Why didn't you just find one for $500?

mhm

I don't know what that means.

Palogal

11-25-2009, 08:58 AM

Well Good morning every body! What can I say I'm baby hunting for no real reason.....

http://dallas.craigslist.org/ftw/grd/1474619664.html

Here you go palomino, this dude looks like he's got it in him to jump! He's cutting bred so he might not have all the height but for low levels he has a nice solid build for it and lots of athleticism.

Equine_Woman

11-25-2009, 09:49 AM

I agree with Reinmaker. It's important to start with the best you can afford in competition horses, especially since it costs the same to feed and care for them. Now for my purposes I don't need a 25,000 horse. But if I was showing at world as a pro, and trying to do this for a living, I sure would try to get as close to that price tag as I could! And I know you don't get a guarantee at that price, but your odds are a lot better at that price than they are at $500 and you'd be out a lot of money either way if they fail.

Now all I have to say about that is I'm VERY glad I'm not looking for that type of horse and my little 1500 horse Sterling will probably be the best horse I've ever had for my entire life. . . and I probably couldn't even sell her for $500 now. (Not that I'd take a million for her. . .) WB is right, it's entirely DIFFERENT worlds.

Palogal

11-25-2009, 10:58 AM

Reinmaker

11-25-2009, 11:20 AM

A huge inflated price tag does not make a good horse necessarily. They all roll in poop. My grade gelding has beat high priced horses, and other "unworthy" horses have beat registered horses. Bloodlines don't make great horses necessarily either. I agree with Kara, I'd rather be out 500$ and have a trail horse than out 25000$ and still have a trail horse.

Anyone can make a winner out of son of Smart Little Lena just by riding his papers. It takes a real trainer to make a successful show horse, not a checkbook.

You couldn't be more wrong as usual. A "real trainer", ha. What would you know about it? Then again you love to toss your little insults and act like you are staying above the fray by not responding directly.

Your grade gelding has beat high priced horses. Well isn't that special, bless your heart. I have some news for you though the really good horses and trainers aren't showing at open shows.:rolleyes: Not to insult open shows and those that enjoy them. They have there place (I personally cut my teeth at open shows and 4-H when I was a youngster), but we are talking on a much bigger scale here and you want to keep reverting back to a world that is completely different then what I am discussing. You aren't playing with the big boys and until you are your grade horse stories don't hold much water in this conversation.

That said, sure horses with lower price tags beat horses with higher price tags all the time. It happens but we were talking about prospects and the ones with the higher price tags have them because they are better stock and the chances of them making it are much greater than the ones with lower price tags. Do you really think the people that can afford these horses are idiots? Most of them are extremely smart successful people. That is why they can afford these horses.:rolleyes:

And no not anyone can make a winner out of a smart little lena horse. That is absurd. I will agree that a trainer who has clients who can afford very well bred and expensive horses has an easier time getting those horses to excel in their desired discpline because well they are bred for it. That is the argument I have been making, and your little attempt at an insult confirms that those higher priced horses are better suited for and more likely to succeed, but no matter what the trainer must still be skilled and know how to train and get the most out of their horse. I have seen some poor trainers squander some really nice horses only to have that horse moved to a trainer that knows what they are doing and the horse excels.

It is highly unlikely that you would be out $25,000 and have a trail horse. You might not have a futurity winner but that horse is going to be a servicable performance horse at some level. The people that spend that kind of money on a prospect are not shooting for an open show or being able to go show in the green classes they are shooting for big money futurities and derbies. It isn't so much a question of will they be a reiner or cutter, but how much money they earn doing it. You just don't get it.

lovesfortune

11-25-2009, 11:34 AM

Palogal

11-25-2009, 11:57 AM

Are they in your avatar? very cute.

Kara

11-25-2009, 03:09 PM

No PAPERS!!! shut your eyes. I think for no papers she turned out to be a good looking for a 2 year old, and free...:innocent:

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/Runbabyrun_photo/129876-1.jpg

http://i445.photobucket.com/albums/qq177/Runbabyrun_photo/Picture749.jpg

Palogal

11-25-2009, 03:29 PM

Hideous Kara, simply hideous :) What are you going to do with her?

Reinmaker

11-25-2009, 05:46 PM

What are you going to do with her?

It must be something pretty big since she thought posting that appropriate to this particular conversation. I am thinking NFR finals, NRCHA snaffle bit futurity, maybe the NRHA futurity, or possibly some big NCHA futurity or derby....I don't know but it must be big and pay a lot of money. I am curious to hear as well.

PaintedDreamer_0110

11-25-2009, 06:20 PM

I just don't think you guys will agree and I see both sides. It's just going round in circles. Amy is right it's two totally different worlds and points of views.

I have a grade horse that is fantastic. I have a registered App who is also fantastic. I think they are the same. Yes, I paid more ($1000 more) for my registered guy, but he rides the exact same and does the exact same as my grade mare. The only difference is he's prettier. Add me to the group that doesn't care about papers. I would have bought him if he didn't. He was the horse I wanted for many reasons, none of them being how he was bred.

I agree. I feel for both of you guys.

I had a Standardbred. Pretty much a grade little bay horse. He was amazing I could trail ride him anywhere, do anything with him. But he was not bred for cutting or reining ect. I could still ride him on the cows. He wasn't great but he could handle them. He was a free horse and I was happy with him.

Now take a look at the two gelding I have now. Driften my APHA was bought for $500
at 3 years old, wild as ever. He is a pretty good horse. I gamed him, he hated it. He loves to trail ride and he is just a mellow low key horse. I wanted a barrel horse he wasn't it. I love Driften to death, he is my budy. He can play with cows and likes to chase them but he is in no way bred for them. Some of his bloodlines consist of Three Bars, Driftwood, Rebel Bar, Spot Cat, and Top Deck to name a few.

Strikes is my AQHA. His bloodline consist of Peppy San Badger, Doc Olena, Doc Bar, and Two eyed Jack to name a few of his. I bought him for $1500 at 3. He had 90 days training and I tell you what that horse has a lot of trust in me, bless his heart. He is my dream horse. He barrel races just as great as the next guy but I think the bllodlines he has allows him to do that easier than Driften. Becuase like Reinmaker said that's what they are bred for. I bet up against a $25,000 horse he would look like a POS. He is everthing I could ever ask for though and I wouldn't sell either of my horses for a million dollars. There is no way in hell I could afford a $25000 horse either. If I ever did I think I'd have to be a SERIOUS competitor, and I'd worry like crazy and keep in in a padded stall ;)

None of my horses have PERFECT conformation but I barrel race, game, and trail ride. I think prospects depend on the disipline and I agree that you don't ride papers but they do play apart in choosing a prospect for a discipline.

I don't know if I seen posty legs in that foal or not. I do like his color and he is cute but you have to look past that. JMHO :)

Remali

11-25-2009, 06:35 PM

I agree..... not all popular pedigrees and high priced horses are going to always be your "best" bet.
I can think of a few National Champion Stallions (Arabians) that came from humble beginnings, back yard breeders from relatively non-popular lines..... and they went on to sire incredible foals and made huge names for themselves. Sometimes pedigrees are very over-rated.

Palogal

11-25-2009, 06:51 PM

Reinmaker

11-25-2009, 06:56 PM

Yeah who cares about genetics? Top animal breeders for centuries have had it all wrong. :hysterical:

Kara

11-25-2009, 07:37 PM

No! Top horses have known to throw completely ugly fugly foals. You combine two animals to correct each others faults, hopefully the foal will turn out better (or as good) then the parents. That's what everyone wants in a foal.

Yes I always ask if the horse has papers. Not for the lines but to see what I can expect for height, and size. I don't give two drop of poops if the horse has cut o Lena (my horses grandsire) as a sire.

Oh and I doubt at 14 I could train a top Reiner so that's why I was given one to learn with.

Reinmaker

11-25-2009, 08:49 PM

Ever going to answer those questions?

Right, so since you don't care, what titles are you gunning for with your crop of well selected non-pedigreed horses and what have they won? Proof is in the pudding. It is real easy to say that they are just as good, but unless they are winning titles and money it means nothing.

At this years NRCHA snaffle bit futurity NINE of the horses who made the open finals (25 make the finals) were by Shining Spark. FIVE were by Very Smart Remedy. You think that is a coincidence. The 2008 NRHA futurity WINNER was by wait for it...SHINING SPARK. You gals can keep pontificating all you want about not carring about pedigrees or bloodlines, that is fine and dandy. Those of us that do this for a living and have to win at the highest levels will pay very close attention. Not for bragging rights on a horses papers, cause it matters in the show pen. Look at the finals go for any major event in, NRHA, NRCHA, NCHA and the horses listed will be sired by a who's who of the performance horse industry. That is the FACTS. They are undeniable and indisputable.

This thread took a little bit of turn and for those coming in late I want to be clear once again I am not knocking horses that people have that don't have all-star pedigrees. The point I am making is that if you want to get a prospect for a specialized discipline you should buy the very best horse you can afford with the very best pedigree. You shouldn't be looking at halter bred horses for performance prospects which is how this all started. That is just plain dumb. If you can spend $1000 find the best pedigreed $1000 horse you can find WITH the right conformation for the job you want it to do. Again this is for prospects. Once a horse is being shown buy the best horse you can afford in your discipline that matches your ability and that compliments your riding style. Then go have fun!!

lovesfortune

11-25-2009, 08:53 PM

I guess I'm just confused as to how it got to this point from where we started with a "just for fun" horse ad/posting?

Reinmaker

11-25-2009, 09:01 PM

It just kind of evolved into selecting top level prospects for specialized disciplines and their cost after starting out as a simple "why would you be looking at a poorly conformed halter bred horse for a performance prospect". It admittedly took a few twists along the way as different posters added different comments and variations of a similar topic.

Mostly it got here cause I am a hard headed SOB who won't let it drop, cause when I'm right I tend to hang in there and beat my head against the wall trying to help people who will never understand.:eek::( And I have had a couple days off these past two days so I have had time to argue on the interwebs. :)

Remali

11-25-2009, 11:00 PM

So much for "just for fun"....now it is "let's bash other horses and be a name-dropper...." :innocent:

As for genetics and "pedigrees", I can think of quite a few well-known stallions who have bad legs and have sired their share of bombs. Following pedigrees and bloodlines are pretty much fads in my opinion.....but again, that is just my opinion. A well-built, athletic horse of ANY bloodline, regardless of a "well known or famous" sire or dam can do well in the show ring with a good trainer.... a horse with "average" bloodlines if they have the conformation and ability can go far, with a good trainer....

A lot of the shows and classes are flooded with offspring from certain stallions, so it is no wonder they win and place....

Kara

11-26-2009, 07:24 AM

Ok my gelding, non papered, was the top barrel horse in this area. I'm not barrel racing anymore because of my knees. I made circuit with him 3 times. Had a chance to go to Vegas! Dont sit here and tell me none of us had a horse do something! I bought him as a crazy four year old.

I'm not going to spend a lot of money on a horse. I have in the past and it didn't work. I've trained the horses I have now. Don't think your the only one that can sit in the saddle and win money.

Kara

11-26-2009, 07:26 AM

A lot of the shows and classes are flooded with offspring from certain stallions, so it is no wonder they win and place....

excatly!

Reinmaker

11-26-2009, 07:26 AM

EDIT:

I am done. Ya'll have a great Thanksgiving.

Kara congrats on your barrel horse, glad you had some good success with him. You still are refusing to see the point. I think I have made it as well as it can be made.

lovesfortune

11-26-2009, 07:28 AM

Mostly it got here cause I am a hard headed SOB who won't let it drop, cause when I'm right I tend to hang in there and beat my head against the wall trying to help people who will never understand.:eek::( And I have had a couple days off these past two days so I have had time to argue on the interwebs. :)

Well, alright then. :) Happy Turkey Day.

Kara

11-26-2009, 07:30 AM

"I define manhood simply: men should be tough, fair, and courageous, never petty, never looking for a fight, but never backing down from one either." -John Wayne

you need to read this again and learn from this. Quit being petty.

Kara

11-26-2009, 07:31 AM

I'm going to enjoy my Thanksgiving and being thankful some on my family is still here

WashingtonBay

11-26-2009, 07:51 AM

I'm thankful for opinionated people, without which, forums would be all boring all the time :)

Remali

11-26-2009, 08:13 AM

True WB...... I guess this is a topic (registered horses, or horses of popular lines), where people do have very strong opinions.... I think the best thing we can all do, and me as well, is to try to keep an open mind.....

I want to wish everyone a wonderful Thanksgiving!

GrungeEquestrian

11-26-2009, 10:19 AM

I'm thankful for opinionated people, without which, forums would be all boring all the time

Yes, really if everyone agreed on every topic there would be no point to a forum. Everyone would share the same advice. I am thankful for this thread, I have learned a lot :). I understand what Reinmaker is saying, horses in his highly demanding and competitive world have to come from good stock. Just like Olympic eventer horses and dressage warmbloods. It would be completely insane for me to buy a 25k horse for what I do. I do local western horsemanship/pleasure and english equitation/pleasure shows and want to start local dressage. My 1k mare with decent conformation can do that just fine but her hocks and other joints would go through murder if she were to do the stuff Reinmaker does.... There are many different worlds in the horse industry.

Fjords <3

11-26-2009, 03:10 PM

What a cutie! I love that kind of coloring.

Tiz

11-26-2009, 04:00 PM

"Yeah who cares about genetics? Top animal breeders for centuries have had it all wrong. :hysterical:"

Reinmaker, you leave out the influence of fashion. Genetics are important, no question, and the fashionable sire gets the best mares, which increases his chances of producing talented babies. That doesn't mean that a horse with less stylish bloodlines, but with talent, confo and presence couldn't produce the same percentage of winners, given the same opportunities. Fashion is the enemy of good breeding, imo, because good sire lines can disappear to the point they can't be revived and those gene influences are lost forever. My perception, though I could be wrong(rare, but possible), is that Quarterhorse people are especially prone to tunnel vision when it comes to choosing bloodlines.
Showing is also a subjective endeavor. Shining Spark is a hot sire, and that translates to an edge in the judge's mind before he even sees the horse or it's performance. That's why I like horse racing over showing.

Those of you that think your $500 yearling stacks up just fine with a $25,000 yearling have never stood that horse next to the bigger money one, and last but not least, Reinmaker, your "yeller" baby looks pretty posty to me. Show me where I'm wrong.

I'm back, wb. Thank you for keeping the welcome mat out.

Reinmaker

11-26-2009, 04:53 PM

Tiz you'd be wrong about Shining Spark and the events his babies compete in. They couldn't care less what the horse's papers say. Those events have five judges who have to give points for each manuever, high and low score get thrown out, middle three are added together for the score. It is very strict what goes for a plus or minus manuever. That is why I like cow horse and Reining. The judging is a whole lot more objective and their is a lot more accountability in it. These guys are good at what they do and all five are usually within a point of each other. They have to post their judges cards and everyone knows not only the final score but exactly what score was given for each manuever by each judge.

Palogal

11-26-2009, 06:14 PM

Yes, really if everyone agreed on every topic there would be no point to a forum. Everyone would share the same advice. I am thankful for this thread, I have learned a lot :). I understand what Reinmaker is saying, horses in his highly demanding and competitive world have to come from good stock. Just like Olympic eventer horses and dressage warmbloods. It would be completely insane for me to buy a 25k horse for what I do. I do local western horsemanship/pleasure and english equitation/pleasure shows and want to start local dressage. My 1k mare with decent conformation can do that just fine but her hocks and other joints would go through murder if she were to do the stuff Reinmaker does.... There are many different worlds in the horse industry.

I think you'd be surprised at what your little mare could do if she were specifically trained and conditioned for it. :)

Tiz

11-26-2009, 06:15 PM

R, I'm not so confident. I'm not saying it would be intentional, but how can human nature be erased, so to speak, for the sake of judging an event? I'm sure, at that level, they are as competent and objective as is humanly possible. Don't misunderstand that.

What about your straight legged baby?

Tiz

11-26-2009, 06:47 PM

Remali

11-26-2009, 07:36 PM

well that was pretty rude.....

palomino

11-26-2009, 09:34 PM

pretty much par for the course in this thread LOL.

Palogal

11-26-2009, 10:26 PM

If you only want 10 pages of Oooh pretty, palo, why don't you just say so in the sub title? It's looks childish to go page after page pretending Reinmaker isn't there, yet communicating with him through your posts to other people.

I have RM blocked so he does not exist to me. I am not communicating with him and don't plan to. The only posts of his I see are quoted by others.

Tiz

11-27-2009, 05:00 AM

Blocked? I don't understand that move, but it's interesting that some people do that.

Sundays Man

11-27-2009, 06:45 AM

All I know is that my girl is Mira and our boy Buck are registered and were not that expensive but they are world champions to us every day we go out to be with them. I have the most beautiful horse in the world, with the best disposition and when we are together, we are BOTH winners. I'm sure Diane would disagree with me, and I would have to agree that Buck would be a close second to Mira in the championship thing but what the heck...he can be a world champion too if that what Diane wants. I wouldn't trade either of them for ten $25,000 horses. And for me that is what it's all about. Well mannered, healthy, beautiful grays that hang out with Carla's painted up, fuzzy at the moment, mustang/QH mix that isn't registered:eek:, EWWWWW. LOL. He is also a world champion and has a great disposition and does anything Carla asks of him. I think Carla is asking $4.2 million for him right now. When we've had all of the problems of life and people we can stand, guess where Diane and I go? To the pasture, or to the barn to be with our horses and that is priceless. I suspect most of us on this forum are that way. It's all about the horse not the papers. "Just for fun" and love.:)

I'm thinking that a lot of knowledge is good for me, but a little bit of wisdom on how to use that knowledge goes even farther for me. Ask me, I'll tell ya, don't ask me, I won't.

Remali

11-27-2009, 09:05 AM

Well said Sundays Man, I totally agree.

Kara

11-27-2009, 11:04 AM

Please give me the questions I didn't answer, I didn't see any?

My parents paid 12k for our paint stallion. He was a 2 year old, trained for pleasure. I loved him to death, I watched my parents pay buttloads of money for horses. In the end, I won more on horses that had faults then the horses that were winning for the "trainers''... I was also enjoying way more.

I'm not knocking the people that pay 25k on horses, but mainly its the trainers doing the work, and the rich people sitting back and saying their horse did this and that. Thats what I don't like. Most of the people don't care about the horses, just care about what they've done, and better then the other guy that they are competing against.

Palogal

11-27-2009, 12:29 PM

Blocked? I don't understand that move, but it's interesting that some people do that.

avoids having to sift through the crap to find valid posts :)

Palogal

11-27-2009, 12:32 PM

Well said Sundays Man, I totally agree.

me too.

Tiz

11-27-2009, 01:59 PM

Palogal

11-27-2009, 02:07 PM

yup...my loss.

Kara

11-27-2009, 02:08 PM

yup...my loss.

i think your a good teacher. don't worry..:innocent:

see ya next week

Remali

11-27-2009, 02:52 PM

I think someone is missing the point on here..... ;)
I'd put my money on Palogal any day.

Palogal

11-27-2009, 04:36 PM

Awe shucks...thanks gals :)

Reinmaker

11-27-2009, 06:09 PM

As someone who dabbles in horse training, you would probably be able to learn something from Reinmaker, p. It's too bad you went the adversarial route instead.

Sunday, I'd wager that's how most horse owners feel about their horses. Reinmaker was making a different point though.

Reinmaker, that "yeller" horse. Are you going to get back to me on him?

I seriously doubt she has me really blocked. She might refuse to respond but she reads the stuff I write. She is just mad I suppose, because I have had the audacity to question her on occasion. I guess she can't handle it unless everyone just bows down to her word and treats it like gospel. Am I harder on her than I am on others, yep, cause she calls herself a trainer. If you put yourself out there as an expert then expect to be questioned when something doesn't pass the smell test.

Sorry it took me a bit, but I am not just dabbling in training. I rode ten head today, gave a lesson to a student that will be running for a national title next week, while riding one myself of course, and then fed and put sheets on everyone. It's been a pretty long day. I needed to ride about 4 more. Not enough hourse of daylight with the dang time change. Tomorrow will be much of the same.

I don't think that Wimpy colt is posty. He may be a little straighter in the hock than I would look for if I were picking one out but I think mostly they just have him set up poorly and he is parked out in the back instead of square and under himself which would show him off better. I haven't seen the horse personally I found that pic after about 30 seconds of just going over to reinersworld and checking the sale ads. I certainly wasn't trying to find the IDEAL prospect, just a good comparison on short notice. I think he presents a far better picture overall than the paint colt.

Tiz

11-27-2009, 08:03 PM

The two colts look very similar in the hocks to me, but I'll admit I didn't check how they were set up much. Glad you checked back to finish the conversation though.

You're riding too many horses, by the way. I wonder, is that a real job, or are you involved in slave labor?

Remali

11-27-2009, 08:05 PM

Er, yeah, everyone on here has the ability to block people's posts....try it and you will see -- totally works..... in fact, I am going to do that very thing..... because life's too short to have to deal with....oh, well, LOL, never mind.... I like to come to this forum to hear about people's horses and not listen to arrogance and putdowns....

Reinmaker

11-27-2009, 08:34 PM

Nah, not riding too many. I love it. I really do. It doesn't really feel like work. I usually ride between 6-8 sometimes 9, but right now I am the only one riding so I am riding as many as I can each day.

That is funny Remali, since the ad hominem attacks have all been directed at me. If you don't like put downs I can only assume you are going to be blocking Palo and her buddy. ;)

Palogal

11-27-2009, 08:45 PM

Remali

11-27-2009, 08:47 PM

Yes, that is for sure..... it's everywhere.... dressage, reining, etc. I just learn to weed out the wackos....LOL.
The Arabian show world was full of it too. Altho on the other hand I did meet some very nice people too.

luckydoublesranch

11-27-2009, 09:59 PM

:popcorn:

GrungeEquestrian

11-27-2009, 10:46 PM

I think you'd be surprised at what your little mare could do if she were specifically trained and conditioned for it.

Thanks palo :). She is a dedicated mount once you earn her respect. She was shown in the most disciplines at my county show (dressage, trail, western pleasure and horsemanship, english pleasure and equitation, western and english halter and showmanship, barrels, poles, and flags). She is very versatile and has the mind to do ALL but I guess seeing a lot of horses at my barn break down arthritic at a young age keeps me cautious about expecting too much from her :doh:. She is ridden 5 times a week a hour each so she is in great shape, I just worry. My next plan with her is some local dressage shows, she has already improved in her over-all frame.

Sundays Man

11-28-2009, 08:00 AM

Sunday, I'd wager that's how most horse owners feel about their horses. Reinmaker was making a different point though.

I understand that Tiz, I really do. And I thought I sort of hinted that Reinmaker has lots of knowledge. I just didn't see where any of it was even pertinent to the thread. I guess the sticking point here is "what kind" of horse one is looking for. 90% of us on here aren't what you would call professional and we have a certain sentiment toward our horses, and all horses for that matter. If I ever have any questions about conformation of either of my horses I would love to hear what Reinmaker has to say. I have a lot of knowledge about railcars, locomotives and metal work and welding, but it's not important unless someone needs that knowledge and ask for it. I honestly appreciate Reinmaker's points and understand where he is coming from. I think once I saw someone taking offense I would just go mute. But hey, that's just me. I'm not here to argue or offend or debate...well except on the "Current Events and Politics" forum.:)

I think you'll notice that I even thanked Reinmaker for the info in one of my replies and i meant it.

I'm officially through with any comments on this one. Reinmaker, I hope you didn't take any offense and you just keep doing what you do best and you seem to really know a lot about your business.

Palogal

11-28-2009, 08:52 AM

Thanks palo :). She is a dedicated mount once you earn her respect. She was shown in the most disciplines at my county show (dressage, trail, western pleasure and horsemanship, english pleasure and equitation, western and english halter and showmanship, barrels, poles, and flags). She is very versatile and has the mind to do ALL but I guess seeing a lot of horses at my barn break down arthritic at a young age keeps me cautious about expecting too much from her :doh:. She is ridden 5 times a week a hour each so she is in great shape, I just worry. My next plan with her is some local dressage shows, she has already improved in her over-all frame.

Condition her slowly and correctly and I'm sure she'll excel in whatever you want her too. If you want a great book with conditioning exercises look into 101 Dressage Exercises for Horse and Rider. It has lots of loosening patterns, suppling work and thing like that that will lead to her frame. It's also in a big flip book so you can set it somewhere and be able to see it from the saddle.