it's time for the de wormer that hits the tapes

[magayle]

just a reminder about de worming for tapes after first frost and to stay away from Quest for ponies and minis:nono:

[rocknK]

All you gotta know is the weight of the animal in question. Mine get quest plus fall & spring. Good stuff.

[WashingtonBay]

I give mine Quest Spring and fall too. Even the pony.... just don't overdose any of them with Quest.

Bay's on special orders this time around to get the Panacure Power Pack. I guess I'll give the others the Quest as usual but I wonder if they shouldn't be given the PPP too? If one horse might have encysted strongles, might they all? Or just the old guy? I don't know. Questions I forget to ask when the vet is actually here.

So I'll do something for tapes in January or so.

[vicklynn]

I do my tape deworming in Dec. Its part of my rotation. Thanks for the reminder.

[TLC97]

Thanks for the reminder. I do mine at Thanksgiving. But I will pick it up now to have on hand.

[Ryle]

Yep, so long as you dose according to weight and there are no pre-existing health issues Quest can be given to ponies. It's the "accurate weight" that is so important.

BW, why are they having you Powerpac Bay? I'm not a big fan of this at all---never ever use it in my own horses due to the common severe inflammation it causes. I just can't see using it to try to prevent GI inflammation due to emergence of encysted strongyles when the drug itself causes severe inflammation---makes no sense to me.

[WashingtonBay]

Yep, so long as you dose according to weight and there are no pre-existing health issues Quest can be given to ponies. It's the "accurate weight" that is so important.

BW, why are they having you Powerpac Bay? I'm not a big fan of this at all---never ever use it in my own horses due to the common severe inflammation it causes. I just can't see using it to try to prevent GI inflammation due to emergence of encysted strongyles when the drug itself causes severe inflammation---makes no sense to me.

I thought you saw the thread earlier in the week, you commented then to watch him closely for up to two weeks after because of potential issues from inflammation.

He's recommending it because encysted strongyles might be one of the causes of Bay's recent diarrhea. He named the probable causes as (1) sand, which he downplayed (but didn't rule out) because no sand was found in a sample stool. (2) encysted strongyles we've not gotten with other wormers, which would also not show up in fecals. (3) Imbalance or Inefficiency of digestion.

So he recommended the PPP to get any strongyles, Probios to help his system, perhaps some Sand clear for awhile if those two don't clear it up, and if that doesn't work, more testing.

He seemed to think the risks are not high of doing the PPP. But he knows I worry about colic with any wormer, and he'll answer my calls.

[Gypsy Rose]

Thanks for the heads up on the tapes, magayle! I'm already in the process of finding out which place locally sells the Ivermectin Gold the cheapest- it will be too late by the time my SmartPak comes, lol!

Since I'm doing the tapes for the first time, I figured I'd be ahead using the ivermectin combo rather than the Quest Plus.

Ryle, or anyone else have any thoughts on this? She's a senior horse like Bay.

[magayle]

i see no reason to use something that may cause problems when ya can simply use something else...when i know better i do better

[WashingtonBay]

All of them may cause problems. It just depends which risk you want to take. My vet specifically recommends Quest spring and fall because it's the most effective against strongyles that have become resistant to other drugs.

The lower-risk wormers may not kill the resistant worms, so you're not doing the job you want to do. The ONLY specific danger in Quest is overdosing, because unlike other wormers which you can fudge and give the whole tube to without worrying much about dose, with Quest, you don't want to overdose them. That's all. The safe window of error is still sufficiently large. I think there's a danger of overdose at double the recommended dose, instead of four or five times the dose with Ivermectin.

[SedonaThunder]

On the PPP... I didn't say anything on the othe post because I know people think I'm a "downer" when I do. However, now that Ryle has brought it up and you're questioning it... I'll mention what I know. I know two people here personally who have had horses colic during the five day treatment - one took a vet visit and was fine a day later and one ended up in the hospital but made it through. Amongst our "forum family" I know that Lisa (RackinRudy) also had a bad experience last year when Rykin was "off" and her vet recommended the 5 day PPP. Rykin also ended up in the hospital.

[WashingtonBay]

I remember her experience on the other forum.

OKAY - so we know there's a risk. Vet and I talked about it and he thinks it's small.

What's the risk of doing nothing? What's the risk of just leaving these worms there? What other options are there if he does have them?

[Ryle]

I thought you saw the thread earlier in the week, you commented then to watch him closely for up to two weeks after because of potential issues from inflammation.

He's recommending it because encysted strongyles might be one of the causes of Bay's recent diarrhea. He named the probable causes as (1) sand, which he downplayed (but didn't rule out) because no sand was found in a sample stool. (2) encysted strongyles we've not gotten with other wormers, which would also not show up in fecals. (3) Imbalance or Inefficiency of digestion.

So he recommended the PPP to get any strongyles, Probios to help his system, perhaps some Sand clear for awhile if those two don't clear it up, and if that doesn't work, more testing.

He seemed to think the risks are not high of doing the PPP. But he knows I worry about colic with any wormer, and he'll answer my calls.

Sorry, it's been a crazy couple of weeks.

Ok, the risk is actually higher than most people have suspected with Powerpac dosing because the reaction can occur up to 14 days AFTER treatment so may not be recognized as associated with deworming. It's only in 2006 that a study was done to determine the consequences of larvicidal treatment with panacur power pac as compared to moxidectin and previously what was worried about was just finding something that would treat encysted strongyles. When we only had 1 drug option, it got used just because that's what we had. The study done that compared the effects of larval treatment with moxidectin and double dose fenbendazole showed inflammation starting at 4 days after treatment and severe inflammation and some ulceration of the lining of the GI tract at 14 days after treatment with fenbendazole but not with moxidectin. GI inflammation was found in ALL of the horses treated with the equivalent of Panacur Powerpac. And there are still many many many vets who haven't heard about this study.

Moxidectin is your other option but it only treats a couple of the encysted stages of strongyles rather than all of them.

As to strongyles causing diarrhea--large strongyles (the kind that don't encyst) can cause diarrhea and small strongyles can cause diarrhea when they emerge from their encysted stage--however it's because of inflammation caused by the damage these worms do to the lining of the GI tract that causes the diarrhea and Panacur Power pac causes inflammation. The damage caused by power pac dosing is like adding fuel to the fire if you are already seeing diarrhea caused by inflammation from damage inflicted by strongyles. In my opinion, you are better off to kill a the encysted stages that are likely to be emerging soon without causing inflammation by using moxidectin.

[WashingtonBay]

If they aren't treated with anything, is the 'normal' inflammation of the GI tract from the strongyles actually emerging? I mean, if the things are embedded in the tissue, and they come out, that leaves a hole, right? Is that what they mean by inflammation? That sore in the lining?

Does the worming cause the same sore in the lining from the dead strongyle coming out, or some other inflammation?

[Mandzanita]

Biggs got a dose of Quest on Monday :) He seems to stomache it well. Question though...this time around I either didn't get the syringe far enough into his mouth or I just didn't squirt fast enough because some came back out. I don't think a ton came out but some got on the side of his mouth and some on the ground. It seemed like a big blob of it shot back out...I'm worried he didn't get the full dose :( I don't really know what my question is...any comments?

[RackinRudy]

I thought you saw the thread earlier in the week, you commented then to watch him closely for up to two weeks after because of potential issues from inflammation.

He's recommending it because encysted strongyles might be one of the causes of Bay's recent diarrhea. He named the probable causes as (1) sand, which he downplayed (but didn't rule out) because no sand was found in a sample stool. (2) encysted strongyles we've not gotten with other wormers, which would also not show up in fecals. (3) Imbalance or Inefficiency of digestion.

So he recommended the PPP to get any strongyles, Probios to help his system, perhaps some Sand clear for awhile if those two don't clear it up, and if that doesn't work, more testing.

He seemed to think the risks are not high of doing the PPP. But he knows I worry about colic with any wormer, and he'll answer my calls.



I did the powerpak on Rykin last winter and he colic'd exactly half way through. he had the liquid water squirt before a poop and i didn't understand that. doc wanted me to do the powerpak again after a couple weeks and i refused. i eventually put him on probiotics and he seemed better.

I should also mention that I got him checked for worms right after and he didn't have any. Not sure the encysted show up or not but I wasn't convinced that was his problem. I did 2 fecals too. This past summer I did Sand Clear too. Oh, he did have another episode in the spring of colic and ended up at Michigan State Hospital, they scoped him for ulcers and to my surprise he didn't have one ... they said he had a very low count of bots but none were attached, no signs of encysted. They told me to just worm him once with an ivermectin and he would be fine ... so far so good.

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

I do my tape deworming in Dec. Its part of my rotation. Thanks for the reminder.

Us too. It is part of our rotation.

[WashingtonBay]

Rackin I remember your time with it and know there's always reason to worry. I worry with any wormer. Any info on why he colicked halfway through? Was it the drug, was it hard on his stomach, was it wormload die off? Do you think you got the worms? Do you think he ever had them?

Did you get any tips on how to work it in with feed, without feed, before, after, during, anything?

I mean, I'd love to just say "no" based on your warnings and Ryle's, but I pay my vet because I trust his advice, and he said I should do this, since I may never have hit these type of worms with my other wormers. And if he might have them, I shouldn't just leave them there, should I?

[RackinRudy]

I did make an edit to my post to explain a little more, you might of missed.

I trusted this vet too .. very much so.
I had him out to just do a full exam on him cuz he was nippy.
He pulled his blanket off and said "oh, he has worms" hit him with the powerpak.
Against my beliefs, I did it and he colic'd.
He said it was because of a worm die-off, but how does he know that without ever checking him for worms or proving to me he did have them? Thats why I did 2 fecals right after ... one 2 weeks after and one 3 weeks after.
I changed vets ...

I kinda did my own thing "yes, I'm somewhat hippee'ish" and do the natural thing. Now he seems to be very good (could also be cuz he's home now) ... but I just have him on oats with a little cadence mixed in ... a vitamin, loose mineral and cocosoya. he's doing great now. i also only use a chemical wormer like twice a year. the rest of the time i do natural wormer and fecal checks.

[WashingtonBay]

From what I understand encysted strongyles, by their nature, would not show up in fecals. That's why it can be missed if you worm based on fecals, which is what I usually do.

I'd think the poop immediately after the colic might have shown dead worms, if there were a massive die off.

Thanks for the added info.... yes, I had posted before seeing that.

[RackinRudy]

The scope would of shown the encysted worms ... and they weren't there.
I don't know ... I say go with your gut ... thats how I work now. I'm not a big fan of the "normal" way of doing things anymore. It's been proven to me time and time again that it just makes my animals sick.

[WashingtonBay]

I think the scope would only have seen them if they were in the stomach. I think these things can be anywhere in the intestinal track. You'd only ever find them if you cut the horse open.

Well, we have the stuff on the way and I'm inclined to give them. While I appreciate the warnings, I have always heard warnings about everything from wormer to immunizations and bute, but never had a problem so far. Don't get me wrong, I think the risks are real, I just think like all risks, they should serve as cautions and things to be alert for, not necessarily roadblocks. I intend to give the wormers, like I always do, in the morning on a work day when I will be around to keep an eye out and my vet is most able to respond quickly, just to be on the safe side. I'm home all the time and these horses rarely go long without someone being here to watch them for signs of trouble, day and night.

[Ryle]

If they aren't treated with anything, is the 'normal' inflammation of the GI tract from the strongyles actually emerging? I mean, if the things are embedded in the tissue, and they come out, that leaves a hole, right? Is that what they mean by inflammation? That sore in the lining?

Does the worming cause the same sore in the lining from the dead strongyle coming out, or some other inflammation?

What is meant by inflammation is an increase in blood supply and white blood cells to an area--just like in a leg wound, you are looking at heat and swelling---it's not the wound that is caused by the parasite emerging, but the body's reaction to such a wound.

The big difference in the parasites emerging on their own and causing inflammation and the Panacur Powerpac causing inflammation is that the inflammation is more severe when you have ALL the encysted parasites dying and causing inflammation at the same time than you do with the encysted strongyles progressing through the life stages to a point where they emerge from the GI walls because that is generally not all going to occur at the same time.

No, fecals won't necessarily (or even probably) show dead parasites after deworming because they die and move out in the feces slowly rather than as a big ball, plus the body can break them down. On fecals you are also looking for eggs which float to the top of the solution and adhere to the microscope slide rather than the parasites themselves which will sink to the bottom of the container due to their weight.

Be aware that you can see a bad reaction anytime from immediately after starting the 5 day Powerpac dosing to more than 2 weeks after you finish treatment.

[WashingtonBay]

Thanks. I'm trying to weigh the risks here. I think you're saying the inflammation is worse because it's all at once, not because the drug itself caused MORE inflammation of the lining than would have occurred naturally right?

If we did it some other way, with the other drug you mentioned, what then, how many doses and what kind of time span would that take?

Is there a real way to confirm they do or ever had these encysted strongyles? Sounds like a possible negative on seeing them in fecals, any other way?

[Gypsy Rose]

On your first question, WB, I read it the same way you did, if that helps any- the rest, you'll have to wait for Ryle, lol!

I'll be keeping track of this- good stuff to know!

[Remali]

I agree with magayle, I prefer to use something that is more safe and less risky.... Ness is on the stables rotational worming schedule, they do theirs the same way I did mine, so far so good.

[WashingtonBay]

On your first question, WB, I read it the same way you did, if that helps any- the rest, you'll have to wait for Ryle, lol!

I'll be keeping track of this- good stuff to know!

Well, so the risk then, would depend on whether there is a really high infestation of the buggers. I've been using Quest twice a year for awhile now. Ryle said that kills these things at some of the stages, so...

I dunno. I doubt he's even got them. It's probably just the hippy biotics the old guy needs. It's like whacking at a pinata trying to hunt and kill these things I've never even seen.

[Gypsy Rose]

If anything- anyone can feel free to argue with me if they wish- if it were my horse, I'll agree with WB- if he's already been getting the Quest twice a year, I'd put Bay on the probiotics, give it 2 weeks to a month, and see what you get.

I can't remember- has his poo cleared up?

[WashingtonBay]

Oh I'll probably still give him the power pack. What the heck else am I going to do with ten tubes of Panacure. We already bought the stuff.

If he's got them, I might as well kill 'em.

Then I'll put him on the probiotic.

[Gypsy Rose]

Good luck! Let us know how that goes.

[Ryle]

The inflammation is more serious because it's all at once, but it's also because of the way the drug kills the parasite. Panacur Powerpacing works by CAUSING inflammation around the encysted parasite. Moxidectin doesn't cause the inflammatory reaction that Panacur Powerpac does. So when you Powerpac you know that it's going to cause inflammation around the encysted parasites---all of them.

Since it's the inflammation in the GI tract that causes diarrhea, giving a drug that you know will cause inflammation seems contra-indicated to me.

A single dose of moxidectin will kill a portion of the encysted strongyles without causing the inflammation.

Diagnosing encysted strongyles is done via necropsy or biopsy of the intestinal wall but you have to biopsy the "right" small section of a very large amount of intestine to see encysted strongyles.