View Full Version : Swollen Leg? Opinions on responsibilities...
This isn't about my horse, but about a particular horse at my barn.
I go to the barn this morning and wander into Mitch's field. He's the same old same old, only letting me get close to his face but not close enough to clip the lead onto. I notice the gelding beside him. He's got horrid conformation. To the point of where he looks odd even to an untrained eye. There's a dip between his back and his hindquarters where it looks like the spine has been chopped off. His neck is short and spindly. I've never seen anything more weird than this poor horse. But what throws me off even more is his attitude... until I look down. His entire leg has swollen up. Hock, fetlock and all the way up to under his tail. There are no signs of external injury.
I run to grab my B/O. She casually says, "Yeah I noticed he was kind of standing in the same spot all day but I thought he was just being quiet. Something seemed weird but I didn't think to look at his legs." We head up to the field and she looks at his leg. It's worse than I had originally thought. He doesn't mind us touching it, but he won't put any weight on it. He's clearly in so much awful pain. We bring him inside the barn as soon as we can, but it takes us a long time to convince him to put weight on it. He struggles to even walk on it.
The next thing my B/O does is extremely surprising to me. She gives him Bute (powdered form) and a shot of penicillin, just in case something had been infected. I've never seen a B/O give an injured horse meds without vet consent. When I left, I felt torn. What if it had been Mitch? I think I would have been okay with her trying to relieve his pain. The B/O said she'd give the owner a call as soon as she was done with him, but I left before that.
The owner of the horse comes to see him once a week or once every few weeks.
What do you think? Is it unfair that the B/O treated the horse without owner consent?
WashingtonBay
12-14-2009, 06:04 PM
What she did is reasonable, and they may have a long history where she could predict what the owner would want done. I'd much rather have a B/O who had permission to give first aid than I would have one afraid to act immediately on the horse's behalf if I could not be reached. In fact, if I was a B/O, I'd want permission to do reasonable first aid up to and including calling the vet, immediately, if the owner can't be reached. Particularly with somewhat absent owners. I wouldn't want a horse to suffer on my place while waiting for an owner who may or may not act quickly.
Talk to her about it... tell her what you'd want done in a similar circumstance.
What she did is reasonable, and they may have a long history where she could predict what the owner would want done. I'd much rather have a B/O who had permission to give first aid than I would have one afraid to act immediately on the horse's behalf if I could not be reached. In fact, if I was a B/O, I'd want permission to do reasonable first aid up to and including calling the vet, immediately, if I can't be reached.
Talk to her about it... tell her what you'd want done in a similar circumstance.I think I would have been okay with her giving meds, but I'm not sure every person would have felt the same. She runs the barn really well. There's nothing to sign when you become a boarder, not even a waiver. :eek:
I thought I should mention that a vet call (alone) on a Monday, Weds or a Friday is $112. On Tuesdays and Thursdays, it's $56.
CaddoCinnamon
12-14-2009, 06:07 PM
Yes and no. I boarded for 4 years and I had to sign a piece of paper stating that if something happened to the horse and it needed meds then the BO had permission to help the horse and if necessary call the vet out. I don't know if you had to sign something similar but I at the time only went out 2 a month to visit my horses. At the time that is all I could go out there because of work and where I lived. I no longer have that problem as now my horses and I all live together on one farm.
WashingtonBay
12-14-2009, 06:09 PM
Fork... I edited a bit while you were posting... just added a few thoughts.
I'm sure there's lots of owners who wouldn't want her to do what she did... but she may have a relationship or understanding with this boarder that tells her she wouldn't have a problem doing what she did. Otherwise, you're right, she's setting herself up for problems.
Yes and no. I boarded for 4 years and I had to sign a piece of paper stating that if something happened to the horse and it needed meds then the BO had permission to help the horse and if necessary call the vet out. I don't know if you had to sign something similar but I at the time only went out 2 a month to visit my horses. At the time that is all I could go out there because of work and where I lived. I no longer have that problem as now my horses and I all live together on one farm.We didn't have to sign a single thing. And they're a legit barn LOL. They only make parents of children under 18 sign, I think. My old B/O only called if something injury-related happened, although she did once feed my horse after she commented that Tiara was looking "ribby."
Her comment is that TB's (like the gelding here) seem to be more injury prone. I can almost vouch for that.
AUEquine
12-14-2009, 07:32 PM
What she did is medically right. With the small amount of info you gave, it sounds most likely like cellulitis. Which can be fairly serious. You also need to sweat the leg to reduce the swelling. The horse also needs to be treated with antibiotics as well as NSAIDs (banamine or bute are equally debated). I really think this horse needs to see a vet if it is cellulitis.
As far as a BO treating... I think it's different at every barn and with every boarder. Personaly I wouldn't want a barn owner giving anything unless they talked to me. But in the past I've known more than my barn owners, and was usually the one called when any horse got sick/hurt. I think BO's should speak with and have in writing what the boarder wants them to do for their horses. Obviously if I can't be reached I want them to give my horse banamine/bute or sedation if needed. And then if necessary call the vet. I've already talked to the people who are around my horse, and made sure they know my horse is only to be treated by auburn. Mostly because I work with all the residents there, and they know me and my mindset.
If I were you I'd talk to your BO. Not so much at that horse, but about yours. Just mention to her that you noticed that she treated that horse before she called the owners. You might say something like, you assume she already has an agreement with those owners. But that you wanted to discuss treating of Mitch. Let her know that you want to be called first thing! I told all of my people that they can call me with any concerns... heck call me if you think he farts funny!
oursarge
12-14-2009, 07:37 PM
My best friend is also the barn owner and she treats them herself if she sees something wrong, she knows I want her to and so do the other boarders. Most of them live a few hrs away so she can't really wait for them to get there if the horse colics or something. If it's something she can't handle then she'll call the vet or if she calls them to say something happened to the horse and they say call the vet she will. For the most part she's as good as the vet with certain things but if she really can't handle it she'll take them to the horsey hospital.
lovesfortune
12-14-2009, 08:00 PM
I think I would have liked a phone call first and a message left to me (the owner) and then had her go ahead and treat it if I wasn't available as well as call the vet.
If he was in so much pain he wasn't using his leg at all, I would have given Bute for sure.
What she did is medically right. With the small amount of info you gave, it sounds most likely like cellulitis. Which can be fairly serious. You also need to sweat the leg to reduce the swelling. The horse also needs to be treated with antibiotics as well as NSAIDs (banamine or bute are equally debated). I really think this horse needs to see a vet if it is cellulitis.
As far as a BO treating... I think it's different at every barn and with every boarder. Personaly I wouldn't want a barn owner giving anything unless they talked to me. But in the past I've known more than my barn owners, and was usually the one called when any horse got sick/hurt. I think BO's should speak with and have in writing what the boarder wants them to do for their horses. Obviously if I can't be reached I want them to give my horse banamine/bute or sedation if needed. And then if necessary call the vet. I've already talked to the people who are around my horse, and made sure they know my horse is only to be treated by auburn. Mostly because I work with all the residents there, and they know me and my mindset.
If I were you I'd talk to your BO. Not so much at that horse, but about yours. Just mention to her that you noticed that she treated that horse before she called the owners. You might say something like, you assume she already has an agreement with those owners. But that you wanted to discuss treating of Mitch. Let her know that you want to be called first thing! I told all of my people that they can call me with any concerns... heck call me if you think he farts funny!Oh dear. The poor man has a bad back, bad legs, bad... everything. She paid a fortune for him and we're not sure why. We saw no gash or cut, just swelling. I'm hoping she called a vet after I left, or let the owner know that the horse needs to see a vet. It's not in my hands right now.
Thanks for the advice. :) I'll talk to her. I'm glad she medically did the right thing, lol!
Equine_Woman
12-14-2009, 09:11 PM
Yeah it all depends on the kind of relationship the barn owner and the horse owner have. I was at barns where the barn owner was my best friend and would have been very glad for the treatment and I was at barns where I would have preferred the owner never even touch my horse. . .
natisha
12-14-2009, 09:41 PM
I have permission to treat or have treated all the horses here. I do try to notify the owners first but that is not always possible. I'm quick to call a vet too.
One time I had a boarder whose horse needed a vet & she told me to wait & see. I told her no, you come out & wait & see, I'm not paid to watch your horse suffer.
In the OP case mentioned I would have given bute & called the owner & vet. I am responsible for their care, not their health care.
Wouldn't cellulitis be very painful to touch? The only time I saw a horse so swollen as described it had a fracture- splint bone, turned out OK but looked terrible.
I would be more upset if someone saw my horse standing in one spot for a long time & didn't check it out. What if the OP hadn't gone out there?
grandmadeb
12-15-2009, 04:58 AM
I won't allow my daughter to give any meds on her own without first at least talking to the vet even banamine. If he is having a colic episode, we call the vet and if she says go ahead and give him some to tide him over until she gets there, then we do. I even called the vet to check out any suplements we were thinking about giving him. They are the ones with the knowledge and I take advantage of it before we give him anything. I would also want the BO to call me if she noticed any health issue with Al and she has in the past. In my experience, the sooner you can start taking care of a problem the better it is as things have a way of going from bad to worse real quick. I also had to sign papers at the vet's office giving them permission to treat Al if called by the barn in the event we can not be reached, especially if it is colic.
I understand why you were concerned and If I were you I would make sure that the BO knows that you would want a call ASAP if your horse were having a problem.
Joey A
12-15-2009, 11:21 AM
I don't know about the Great White North (eh) but in Texas what the barn owner did is practicing veterinary medicine without a licence. If something had gone wrong, (or goes wrong) the horse owner could be your new barn owner. Technically, even now she's liable for at least practicing veterinary medicine without a licence, and distributing a controlled substance.
If it's not your horse, you can't do anything but first aid. Giving injections, medications to someone elses horse is considered veterinary medicine, even if you don't charge for it.
Granted I see it all the time, and nothing is likely to happen unless something goes wrong, but I don't even make reccomendations for use of bute, antibiotics etc. I definately won't administer anything, it's above my paygrade.
IMNTBCHO, that is exclusively the duties of a veterinarian. If not the vet, it should be the owner acting on the direct advice of a vet for the specific situation.
"If something had gone wrong, (or goes wrong) the horse owner could be your new barn owner. Technically, even now she's liable for at least practicing veterinary medicine without a licence, and distributing a controlled substance."
What is the "controlled substance"?
natisha
12-15-2009, 12:34 PM
I don't know about the Great White North (eh) but in Texas what the barn owner did is practicing veterinary medicine without a licence. If something had gone wrong, (or goes wrong) the horse owner could be your new barn owner. Technically, even now she's liable for at least practicing veterinary medicine without a licence, and distributing a controlled substance.
If it's not your horse, you can't do anything but first aid. Giving injections, medications to someone elses horse is considered veterinary medicine, even if you don't charge for it.
Granted I see it all the time, and nothing is likely to happen unless something goes wrong, but I don't even make reccomendations for use of bute, antibiotics etc. I definately won't administer anything, it's above my paygrade.
IMNTBCHO, that is exclusively the duties of a veterinarian. If not the vet, it should be the owner acting on the direct advice of a vet for the specific situation. It's the same even in snow man land. People will be quick to blame. That's why I am quick to call a vet, though I will give bute if the situation calls for it but not if the bute would make a diagnosis difficult or mask pain causing further injury. The OP case bute administration was an act of mercy. Each case requires an assessment of the situation.
I have a release saying what I will & will not do. I won't inject anything. Some people will try to get you to treat to save a vet call fee.
WashingtonBay
12-15-2009, 12:36 PM
Bute is a controlled substance, it's a prescription drug... so too is the antibiotic, probably.
I don't think she's practicing medicine unless she charges a fee for the service, but that's a personal, not legal, opinion. It's a harder call because she probably will charge something extra for the drugs... probably.
You can buy penicillin at most feed stores, and though you have to buy bute and banamine from a vet, they are ordinary and necessary stable supplies. No one should get the idea here that you may be "practicing veterinary medicine without a license" while using them.
WashingtonBay
12-15-2009, 12:57 PM
Nevertheless, they are controlled substance if you have to get them from a vet, they have legal controls on them. That's the definition of a controlled substance, which is the part you questioned.
The argument is that you're practicing veterinary medicine if you're treating horses other than your own, without the direction of a vet. I think he's probably technically correct on that, though understand the need for blurring of those lines in real life, horses and boarding stables, sometimes.
Understood, and hopefully the horse owner, who makes the effort, wow, up to twice a month to see her horse, has arrangements with the barn owner to deal with whatever comes up.
This is what bothered me the most about this story.
""Yeah I noticed he was kind of standing in the same spot all day but I thought he was just being quiet. Something seemed weird but I didn't think to look at his legs."
Of course, this owner doesn't seem that invested in this horse, so maybe this degree of incompetence wouldn't be a problem for her. It sure chaps my hide though.
WashingtonBay
12-15-2009, 01:17 PM
Well, hindsight is 20-20. I'm pretty observant of my own, but I don't run out there every time a horse stands in one spot a while. Maybe there were other clues she should have gone out there, I don't know, but it's also possible "Yeah - he has been kinda standing around all day" is something she is recalling after the fact in figuring out the problem, not an example of incompetence. I don't think the BO is a villain here... her actions, once she knew about it, seem to have been reasonable. I just hope a vet was called today, if not yesterday.
Not a while, wb, all day.
WashingtonBay
12-15-2009, 01:35 PM
Right. OK - Please say we're not splitting hairs over two very vague figures of speech in recalling time passage. ;)
I guess I'm defensive about a BO who Joey has already said could/should legally lose her farm over decisions she made about someone else's hurt horse. I don't like that about our current culture. An honest recollection that the horse may, in hindsight, have been that way for some time that day is something I would value as useful information for her to offer, not a gotcha moment I can get her on in finding blame.
Joey is dramatizing, it seems. No one is going to lose their farm over a potentially dead horse. They might have to pay market value for the horse, but come on, the farm? I hope to hades things aren't that unfair.
I'm not splitting hairs over terminology. A while is individually interpreted, all day is all day.
WashingtonBay
12-15-2009, 01:55 PM
I'm just being contrary, too... I just don't like throwing around a word like incompetent, when it doesn't sound like she is. 'them's fightin words', as they say. Not as observant as she could have been... maybe.
" Not as observant as she could have been... maybe."
I agree. You are being contrary.:eek: This is the barn owner's/manager's job, and if she noticed this horse standing in one place "all day" and didn't check it out, then she isn't performing competently. Any person with that responsibility should know horses don't do that.
Joey A
12-15-2009, 04:24 PM
The thing you seem to be missing is that this is not just a civil matter, it's a criminal act to give bute to an animal without a prescription, even your own. It's an FDA controlled substance. Like I said, you're most likely not going to get busted for it but it is illegal, and you ARE subject civil litigation as well, if something goes wrong. If nothing goes wrong they may not have grounds for litigation, but they can still file a police report and have them punished for illegal activities.
Losing the farm "might" be hyperbole, it just depends on how good their lawyer is.
I'm not saying that any of that is going to happen, but it is possible.
Joey A
12-15-2009, 04:29 PM
This is the barn owner's/manager's job, and if she noticed this horse standing in one place "all day" and didn't check it out, then she isn't performing competently.
I agree that as described, it probalby should have been noted earlier. However giving drugs and injections is beyond duties or rights. I still think that it should have been handled by a vet, reguardless of how you feel about the use of bute. Injudicious use of antibiotics is what causes antibiotic resistant strains of viruses etc. Giving "A" shot of pennecillin would be about worthless for something that severe anyway.
WashingtonBay
12-15-2009, 04:33 PM
The thing you seem to be missing is that this is not just a civil matter, it's a criminal act to give bute to an animal without a prescription, even your own.
Well, that's ludicrous. I can see issue with her treating someone else's horse... especially because it is a paid professional relationship... but unless you can find one case where a horse owner was prosecuted for treating their own horse with bute... it's a frivolous argument.
Yeah, Joey. Ludicrous, and I suspect you may be wrong too. How about some proof for that statement?
Joey A
12-15-2009, 07:48 PM
What part of perscription medication do you guys not get?
Apparently you do not follow what I'm saying, and I don't care to spell it out for you.
WashingtonBay
12-15-2009, 08:01 PM
Ah phooey. We're not stupid Joey. I know what prescription means. I also know that some drugs are much more tightly controlled than others, and to talk like Bute is this tightly controlled substance we could all be busted for having in our barns without specific instructions to go with it is ludicrous.
I'll continue with my reality that it's frequently purchased in 'have on hand' quantities to be given when needed for a variety of reasons without specific prior order from our vets. And that's exactly why they prescribe it for us to have.
natisha
12-15-2009, 08:19 PM
So what ever happened to the horse?
Palogal
12-15-2009, 08:35 PM
I don't see a problem with what she did and I've done similar things myself if the owner was not available and there was an immediate problem. As the BM, I felt like if the horse was in pain or sick it was my responsibility to make it more comfortable until the owner could be reached. I would never authorize surgery or something, but simple things like antibiotics, bute, banamine I would do without a second thought. Is it legal, no. It's not legal for anyone to administer drugs to someone else's animal other than a vet. On the other hand, I'm not going to allow an animal to suffer.
Palogal
12-15-2009, 08:39 PM
I'll continue with my reality that it's frequently purchased in 'have on hand' quantities to be given when needed for a variety of reasons without specific prior order from our vets. And that's exactly why they prescribe it for us to have.
Yes, I have banimine and bute on hand at home an we keep it at the barn too. It's not out for all the world to use, but it's there if the owner, manager, or one of us trainers need it. More often than not it's for the lesson boys when they swell up, or choke on a carrot or something.
natisha
12-15-2009, 08:47 PM
Is it legal, no. It's not legal for anyone to administer drugs to someone else's animal other than a vet.. So would it be illegal for me to have a quick lick of powered bute? ;)
Palogal
12-15-2009, 08:50 PM
So would it be illegal for me to have a quick lick of powered bute? ;)
LOL...I guess not since it's not prescribed to you.
Joey A
12-15-2009, 09:14 PM
Indicted for illegal possession of phenylbutazone (http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1314&dat=19850306&id=gNsRAAAAIBAJ&sjid=E-8DAAAAIBAJ&pg=6997,3058626)
Didn't serve jail time, but did spend 3 years on probation and served 832 hours of community service.
http://web1.ncaa.org/web_files/NCAANewsArchive/1985/19851125.pdf
Different circumstances than what any of us would encounter, but it is a prosecutable offense.
FDA Limitations say "Federal law restricts this drug to use by or on the order of a licensed veterinarian." not "at discretion of horse/barn owner"
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr/CFRSearch.cfm?fr=520.1720a
WashingtonBay
12-15-2009, 09:23 PM
Gotcha.... Note to self: don't deal it to student athletes...
Palogal
12-16-2009, 06:32 AM
It comes down to, would the owner sue you? A logical, non freaky owner trusts the BO or the BM to do things like that. I would feel more comfortable if I had at least talked to the owner before administering any drugs but if it was a situation like the OP describes and the animal was hurt that badly I would do something to alleviate his pain. Legal or not, the animal is hurt in the care of the BO. The BO should have access to the horse's allergies and such to avoid a reaction.
I would not sue my babysitter for giving my child a tylenol if she had a fever.
Palogal
12-16-2009, 06:34 AM
Gotcha.... Note to self: don't deal it to student athletes...
Eaxctly. That article is just ridiculous, not to mention irrelevant to this thread. What kind of moron is going to drug someone else's kid like that?
WashingtonBay
12-16-2009, 07:34 AM
It comes down to, would the owner sue you? A logical, non freaky owner trusts the BO or the BM to do things like that. I would feel more comfortable if I had at least talked to the owner before administering any drugs but if it was a situation like the OP describes and the animal was hurt that badly I would do something to alleviate his pain. Legal or not, the animal is hurt in the care of the BO. The BO should have access to the horse's allergies and such to avoid a reaction.
I would not sue my babysitter for giving my child a tylenol if she had a fever.
Actually, I'm fairly sure I would not have a problem with what the BO did so far, but if it was my horse with symptoms that severe, my first response would have been to call me and then my vet immediately. So, yes, treat, but in addition to calling me right away, not instead of. I would not have wanted to wait a day to get a vet out there if I could not be reached... that's a 'soon as possible' kind of vet call in my book.
I'm curious if there's an update on this horse?
Joey A
12-16-2009, 11:05 AM
My point was/is that "technically" non-prescription use of bute is a crime... Period. Just because people usually look the other way doesn't mean it's any less of a crime, the fact still stands that it is a controlled substance and you can get in trouble for using it without following proper protocol.
Actually in this case it's not even the non-prescription use of bute that concerns me, it's the use of anti-biotics without knowing what is going on. If someone (other than my vet) gave my horse a shot of anti-biotics without my consent, or even knowing what's wrong, you better believe I'd have something to say about it.
Crime? I'll bet not, and if you're going to support that statement, you will have to find an example that involves human owners and animal drug recipients.
natisha
12-16-2009, 01:03 PM
My point was/is that "technically" non-prescription use of bute is a crime... Period. Just because people usually look the other way doesn't mean it's any less of a crime, the fact still stands that it is a controlled substance and you can get in trouble for using it without following proper protocol.
Actually in this case it's not even the non-prescription use of bute that concerns me, it's the use of anti-biotics without knowing what is going on. If someone (other than my vet) gave my horse a shot of anti-biotics without my consent, or even knowing what's wrong, you better believe I'd have something to say about it. Yeah I would have a fit if someone gave my horse an injection of anything. Antibiotics don't fall into my category of emergency meds, especially if a vet was on the way.
Do we know how the horse is now?
natisha
12-20-2009, 02:19 PM
Any update yet?
PatriotsDreamer
12-20-2009, 10:39 PM
do these laws apply to canada??? i think thats where the horse is at...
cheval
12-21-2009, 12:31 PM
The BO should have called the owner first, then the vet, and then done whatever the vet suggested until they got out. The BO should not have done anything without first consulting with a vet. What if the horse was allergic to the shot? Or what if the bute may have masked something that the vet would need to see?
I'd have been pissed. And the fact that the BO isn't more observant, that's a little lame.
PaintedDreamer_0110
12-22-2009, 10:28 AM
My point was/is that "technically" non-prescription use of bute is a crime... Period. Just because people usually look the other way doesn't mean it's any less of a crime, the fact still stands that it is a controlled substance and you can get in trouble for using it without following proper protocol.
Actually in this case it's not even the non-prescription use of bute that concerns me, it's the use of anti-biotics without knowing what is going on. If someone (other than my vet) gave my horse a shot of anti-biotics without my consent, or even knowing what's wrong, you better believe I'd have something to say about it.
Well IMHO giving bute to your horse is like taking tylenol or ibprofen. We don't have to have a dr prescribe it when it is needed.
Palogal
12-29-2009, 12:05 PM
The BO should have called the owner first, then the vet, and then done whatever the vet suggested until they got out. The BO should not have done anything without first consulting with a vet. What if the horse was allergic to the shot? Or what if the bute may have masked something that the vet would need to see?
I'd have been pissed. And the fact that the BO isn't more observant, that's a little lame.
I would assume the BO is aware of any allergies the horse might have. I'm one of those people that doesn't call the vet unless I'm at a loss as to what to do. Usually when I call the vet it's "this horse did this (collicing, hurt, lame) and I need this (banamine, antibiotic, bute)"
I've never had a boarder be upset with me for treating his/her horse, I call before I treat though. I would be irritated if someone gave one of mine a shot without calling me, but if it was an emergency (like this was) I'd get over it.
Hmm, it is an intersting situation. ANd there are varibles we don;t know. For example how accessable are vets, if this horse is in poor condition cuz of the owner, maybe the BO needs to step up more. Lets say the BO called vet, most likely he would have instructed to at least adm the bute, but I am not so sure abt the anti-biotic.
If you are uneasy abt the BO treating your horse the same, definatley say something abt how you want it handled.
Cora had a similar injury several years ago. Badly swollen hind leg, very reluctant to walk, and I had a hell of a time getting out a vet. At the time most equine vets were 1 to 2 hrs away. Turnered out she tore some muscles and was laid up for weeks. Her leg swelled so bad, fluid would seep from her skin. She was put on antibiotics to offset and secondary infections form the fluid ans seepage. Her leg did heal but the muscle is atopfied soem and she has a funny little hitch in her step. Hope the poor boy recovers.
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