Dealing with Navicular....Dreamers Journey

[Country Girl 43]

Well....since getting the news about Dreamer and her navicular problem I thought I would start a thread to update on her treatments, progress and what the final outcome will be.

First...Some of you may not agree with my decisions along the way. Some of you may think I am right , some may think I am wrong, but either way, these are my decisions and choices and I have to do what is best for my family. I love my horses, BUT my kids come FIRST!

Second....All 3 of my horses are boarded. I bought each and every one of them to be able to ride them. Dreamer was supposed to be for my kids to move up to for riding in gymkhanas. At this point we do not know if that will ever happen now.

Background on Dreamer:
We rescued her from a neglectful home that didn't feed her on a regular basis, nor did they excersize her or clean her stall. She was always standing in urine and feces (sp). She also was a constant cribber and we figured it was from ulcers caused from not being fed on a regular basis.

Dreamer is an 8 yr old APHA mare....Her bloodlines go into Doc Bar, Cutter Bill and some other well known stallions.

We spent the last 4 months getting her ulcers under control and her cribbing has gone down at least 75%. Her weight is back where it should be. In Oct, we had her exrayed because she had become gimpy at a trot. She was diagnosed with navicular. After under going more ex-rays and an MRI it turns out that it was worse than the vet had orginally thought. We were told last week that Dreamer will not be able to be ridden in gymkhanas.

We were given a few options. 1) Try shoes 2) Steriod injections 3) A surgery to cut the nerves.

Well...the surgery is out of the question and the injections are extremely expensive, so we are starting small and going from there.

Today...Oct. 31st, my shoer was out to work on Dreamer. He had looked at the MRI and was shocked to see such deterioration of the navicular bone in such a young horse. But...we are willing to start things one step at a time.

He put on aluminum shoes with wedges to help level her hoofs. These are not egg bar shoes. The aluminum is to help absorb the shock, where steal shoes would not.

Her hooves in the front were off by 3/4 of an inch. Her right front being lower than her left. After he had finished putting the shoes on, Dreamer began standing square in the front with her weight distributed evenly on both feet. THIS was a good sign. My shoer did not expect to see this until at least a couple of days.

So this is day one of our journey. I will get photos up when I get a chance so you can see what we are doing. We will also be putting her on a medication to get more blood flow into her hoofs...sorry don't know the name of it right now.

[Gypsy Rose]

Thank you for sharing this- I will be watching your thread closely to see how Dreamer is doing.

[lovesfortune]

I'm with Gypsy. Thanks for starting a new thread to keep up updated. Hopefully the new shoes help her out a lot. Sounds good so far.

[Arrow]

Great idea for a thread, it's going to be a learning experience for all of us! Looking forward to updates along the way.:)

[Nudge_gurl58]

I will be watching to hear about the progress!
:)

[gaited07]

Thanks for the update on Dreamer CountryGirl. I wish you, your kids and Dreamer the best.
I understand about decisions, right, wrong or in different, they have to be made. GOOD Luck!

[WashingtonBay]

We will also be putting her on a medication to get more blood flow into her hoofs...sorry don't know the name of it right now.

Isoxsuprine. Bay's been on this a few to several years now. Now that we're not sure he even has or ever had any real Navicular Syndrome, I've thought about taking him off of it, but I want to make sure I'm only changing one thing at a time when I do.

From a management perspective, this is an easy drug to give daily, at least. It does not taste bad and I can put the pills in his feed with no incentives and he eats them right up. That's important, giving something daily, that it's not a big battle to get it in them. And it's affordable, which is good. We buy the big bottle of a thousand tablets for about $29 plus shipping from [/URL][url=http://www.allivet.com/SearchResults.asp?Search=Isoxsuprine&Search.x=0&Search.y=0&Click=2244]Allivet (http://www.allivet.com/?Click=2244). My vet charges about $45 for it. Since it's a human drug, we have to give a lot of the little pills, heh... 15-20 of them. :)

[zoel_222]

You guys are all in my thoughts. I hope everything will work out okay and I look forward to reading more on this thread. Good luck :)

[Country Girl 43]

WashingtonBay...that IS the name of the stuff...Thanks!

Today I went out to see Dreamer after work. I led her aorund the arena to see how she walked and she seemed more comfortable than in the past. I am trying to upload some photos, but having problems. Maybe I can get them in the next post.

[lovesfortune]

Good news! A good sign that you think she is more comfortable than before.

[Cat]

Glad to hear that the shoes are already starting to help her. Hopefully it continues to improve for her. Her old owners need to be hung!

[Gypsy Rose]

Glad to know the shoes might be helping!

[Country Girl 43]

Nov. 1 - Day 2 of wearing her new shoes. She seems to be getting around better. Even walking her around the arena she wasn't ouchy. Of course we only walked today, no rider, just being led around.


Front Right hoof. Yes, she is jacked up on the back. This looks more drastic than it really is, due to the uneven ground she was standing on.
http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o446/CountryGirl43/5deac5d0.jpg

Front left...the stuff around the back is a gel cushion. It also might look like she has a crack in the front of her hoof, but it is not a crack, it is sealant to help keep dirt from getting under the pad.
http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o446/CountryGirl43/c657723e.jpg

Another front left shot.
http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o446/CountryGirl43/7a3070e6.jpg

http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o446/CountryGirl43/6c49cff7.jpg

Dreamer wearing hoof boots to help protect the shoes, so she doesn't clip them and pull them off.
http://i343.photobucket.com/albums/o446/CountryGirl43/e8c849bb.jpg

[WashingtonBay]

Remarkable looking package! I'll be interested to see if it helps her.

[Country Girl 43]

yeah, looking at that front left, I will have to let my shoer know that the gel seems to be pushing out. He will be stopping by tomorrow to check on her and make sure everything is supposed to be where it belongs.

It all looked prettier yesterday, but of course I did not have my camera then...:doh:

[lovesfortune]

I've never seen anything like that before. I'm glad it's helping. And I'm glad you have a farrier that seems to know what he's doing too.

[SedonaThunder]

Thanks for starting this CG - it will be great for us all to follow along and learn AND be here to support you no matter what you decide to do. Dreamer is in my prayers and I'm sooo hopeful that she is going to improve.:)

[Country Girl 43]

Thanks everyone....I figured that no matter what happens, it can be a learning experience for all who read here. I trust my shoer. He is always staying updated with things. He's dealt with many different issues in horses hooves. Like the shoers on this site, he says it's a matter of finding what works for each horse.

Also, the Farriers/shoers on this forum are more than welcome to comment or give suggestions. This is a learning thread for all, so if you have suggestions, I don't mind.

[Gypsy Rose]

Unconventional shoing for unconventional hooves- makes total sense to me!:)

I'm glad the shoes seem like they're continuing to work.

[PoniesRock101]

Glad she seems to be getting around better!

[vicklynn]

Wow, thats some shoe. Im glad that is makes her more comfortable.

[qh trail rider]

I do so hope that the new shoeing technique helps Dreamer. I know that you have been doing a lot of research. Just curious, is there a link between malnourishment and navicular?

[Country Girl 43]

OCT. 4th ...I was out with the horses today. Dreamer seemed a bit more spunky than usual. She kept coming up to the stall to see me. I felt like things might be looking up, but once I took Ladybird out and Dreamer got upset about it, she trotted a bit and I could still see a limp in her step. :( I know it's only been a few days. She didn't trot around much...thank goodness, but if she moves I pay very close attention to what she does.

She does seem to want to move around more than usual. So I guess her attitude is better since getting the shoes on. My shoer said to give it a week and see how she does at that point...better, worse or no change.

[lovesfortune]

Well I would think that a good attitude change is a good thing right? Maybe she's not hurting as much? Hopefully she improves!!

[Gypsy Rose]

I think the attitude change might be a good thing- I know when Gypsy's having a bad arthritis day, because she's a little on the grumpy side.

[jeezitsjacki]

sounds like your making progress one step at a time. I hope it continues. Those are some high tech shoes!.. hope they help

[wundahoss]

I do so hope that the new shoeing technique helps Dreamer. I know that you have been doing a lot of research. Just curious, is there a link between malnourishment and navicular?

Diet has a lot to do with the health of every little part of a body, so yes, in some respects. However, I haven't seen any research that has shown malnourishment to be specifically linked to 'Navicular'. Management was most likely the deciding factor there. We don't know if she was shod long term, the state of her hoofcare, etc, but if she were stalled & exercised infrequently, her heels & digital cushions would be very weak & sensitive from lack of use. This would have made her want to land toe first, which seems to be a primary cause of unhealthy pressure on the Navicular bone.

If this system of shoeing helps her comfortably land heel first, this will hopefully halt or at least slow the progression of the degeneration. I wonder whether being so jacked up would make heel first landings possible tho? I agree with the idea of the gel pad, to reduce heel sensitivity, but not the wedge business.

[lovesfortune]

Any new updates on Dreamer?

[Joey A]

Heres a list of what I would be looking for if this were a horse that I was asked to come in and consult on.

My first question would be if there was any adhesion noted or suspected to the flexor tendon during the any of the radiographic procedures.

Is the horse landing heel first? If so, is it a big toe flipping heel first landing?

Is the shoe flat? This is a fairly distorted foot and the toe is stretched forward. With the shoe set all the way to the toe, there's a lot of unnessicary leverage going on when the flexor tendon locks all the joints in place and all the horses weight goes up onto the toe before breakover. I would hope to see that lever shortened as reducing that leverage is the number one goal of dealing with navicular.

Then I'd want to see how the foot was trimmed and what kind of packing was used.

I'm interested in why such long heels, that's alot of pad on there sticking out the back. Looks more like a saddlebred shoeing than anything. That extra weight in the pad can force a horse to land heel first which while it is one of the goals, it's not really a "true" heel first landing. It gives you a false sense of what's going on with the breakover as even if the toe is too long with that extra weight you can still get a heel first landing.

When determining how much wedge to use, I trim the foot and tape on wedges until they land flat or slightly heel first. Then when the shoe is applied I bring back the toe of the shoe by moving the shoe, rockering the toe, or using a shoe like a natrual balance etc. This way if the horse is landing flat to heel first barefoot with it's full toe length you are guaranteed a heel first landing when that lever is reduced.

In any case I don't like to see that much shoe sticking out beyond the heels unless you are trying to ease an injury further up the leg as that much leverage on the heels is often destructive, especially if the heels have not been adequately trimmed back to the widest part of the frog.

Looks like very skilled work and has alot of the key elements. My main concern is the length of the toe. Depending on what playbook the farrier was using he may have been trying to create a 50/50 ratio around the coffin joint, which would explain the long heels, but IMO I think that they both need to be shortened up a bit with a much smaller shoe.

This may work, just not a method I use in my playbook.

[Country Girl 43]

Heres a list of what I would be looking for if this were a horse that I was asked to come in and consult on.

My first question would be if there was any adhesion noted or suspected to the flexor tendon during the any of the radiographic procedures. Yes, there was.

Is the horse landing heel first? If so, is it a big toe flipping heel first landing? Umm not sure

Is the shoe flat? This is a fairly distorted foot and the toe is stretched forward. With the shoe set all the way to the toe, there's a lot of unnessicary leverage going on when the flexor tendon locks all the joints in place and all the horses weight goes up onto the toe before breakover. I would hope to see that lever shortened as reducing that leverage is the number one goal of dealing with navicular.

Then I'd want to see how the foot was trimmed and what kind of packing was used.

I'm interested in why such long heels, that's alot of pad on there sticking out the back. Looks more like a saddlebred shoeing than anything. That extra weight in the pad can force a horse to land heel first which while it is one of the goals, it's not really a "true" heel first landing. It gives you a false sense of what's going on with the breakover as even if the toe is too long with that extra weight you can still get a heel first landing.


In any case I don't like to see that much shoe sticking out beyond the heels unless you are trying to ease an injury further up the leg as that much leverage on the heels is often destructive, especially if the heels have not been adequately trimmed back to the widest part of the frog. We are working on several factors, the tendons and the navicular.

Looks like very skilled work and has alot of the key elements. My main concern is the length of the toe. Depending on what playbook the farrier was using he may have been trying to create a 50/50 ratio around the coffin joint, which would explain the long heels, but IMO I think that they both need to be shortened up a bit with a much smaller shoe.

This may work, just not a method I use in my playbook.

Thanks for chiming in on this. I always like to get other opinions. As for the shoes, well those are not permanent. we are seeing how she reacts, weight pressure and all. Especially with the tendon issue. Then we will go to a shorter shoe and less wedge.

Her ex-rays are the ones you all were commenting on in the other thread. I was going to put the MRI pics up, but there are over 100 of them.

Again...keep the suggestions/opinions coming. Guess I shoudl ask the pros here...do you think this horse would ever be able to do gymkhanas?

[Joey A]

If she's got adhesions between the tendon and the navicular bone, then don't get rid of the wedge. They often need excessive wedging to keep them sound(er).

Setting the toe of the shoe back is more important that shortening the heels IMO.

I wouldn't plan on anymore gymkhana for her if shes got tendon adhesions. Just be thankfull she's sound for gentle trail work she will get way worse way fast if you try to use her too much. Adhesions are kinda the end of the road unless they are nerved, but that dosen't fix anything, it just makes them comfortable enough to live until there's some kind of mechanical failure. (tendon rupture usually) But even then nervings don't always work and sometimes they will re-grow.

[Country Girl 43]

Yep....That's what the vet and my shoer said. :( We are figuring she can be used as a nice trail horse or lesson horse.