VIEW POINTS on THE AQHA?APHA EP

[gaited07]

FW had posted a youtube video of her friends horse that is one its way to AZ. In that video is the horse tacked up in English and going in the WP mode. It's not just this horse but ALL horses in the video that are doing this. They look the same no matter what tack you put on them. Just plain ole WP horses. (nothing bad with it, but IMO not English)

I mean no disrespect to those who ride this way but I don't agree with them being classified as English pleasure horses when there is no change in the frame and the riders hands holding those reins loose.

I started this thread to get others opinions of a English horse. How do you see a English horse?

I've included another video
YouTube- Iron Man By Design - Sr. English Pleasure - State 2008


This is a excellent example of what I'm talking about. The first horse IS a English type of horse however, the other horses in the ring, NO

YouTube- May Classic Open Show - Senior English Pleasure

[WashingtonBay]

I agree that most of them look like they would run into a fence before they ever saw it. Hunters should look like they are ready to follow the hounds or jump a fence...

I don't like it, English, Western or otherwise when the horses look like they're doing all they can to not move at all... Where low flat-kneed movement is actually prized. But then, I come from Arabs... where English pleasure means saddle seat, and is all about motion. :)

[livaward]

The only thing different I see in the first video is the paces....and the horses don't look broken

the 2nd video is more english typed

[CaddoCinnamon]

I wouldn't know. My Cutter is going to be trained for WP but not for English yet. I hope to start her in English eventually.

[Arrow]

Ya know...there's a reason I just hit the woods and the fields and the trails.:) Just me and my horse and nature, that's all I need.

[gaited07]

I wouldn't know. My Cutter is going to be trained for WP but not for English yet. I hope to start her in English eventually.

If you notice that these horses stay in the same frame as they would in the Western Pleasurse classes. There maybe a slight faster pace in the trot but not that much. Look at the contact on the reins, same as the WP, the head carriage, same as WP. My point is If you plan to show in EP then TRAIN the horse to do English Pleasure and ride in a English frame. Most of the Youtube videos I viewed on this topic was the same type of horses in the same frame, WP. I'm not faulting it, I just don't see English Pleasure.

Ya know...there's a reason I just hit the woods and the fields and the trails.:) Just me and my horse and nature, that's all I need.

That's all good but sometimes having an opinion about things is good too:)

[Palogal]

WP horses used torun around like they're lame. Some good WP trainers never bought into that and would instruct their students to allow the horse to move forward. The trend now, is that they move forward like they're supposed to. EP horses are suppose to have their head vertical not behind the vertical but some judges prefer them behind for some stupid reason. The paces are supposed to be forward and relaxed. I attend World APHA every year and I"m glad to see even the WP horses are starting to move forward, they're still slow but they're forward - pushing on all four cylinders.
The biggest focus seems to be light in front, and that has been for years.

[JennyandJosey]

WP horses used torun around like they're lame. Some good WP trainers never bought into that and would instruct their students to allow the horse to move forward. The trend now, is that they move forward like they're supposed to. EP horses are suppose to have their head vertical not behind the vertical but some judges prefer them behind for some stupid reason. The paces are supposed to be forward and relaxed. I attend World APHA every year and I"m glad to see even the WP horses are starting to move forward, they're still slow but they're forward - pushing on all four cylinders.
The biggest focus seems to be light in front, and that has been for years.

I've been hearing this for a while but all the WP horses I see on videos still look lame and like they're 4 beating. I don't go to WP shows so maybe I'm missing something but I just don't see change on any of the videos I've seen. I don't see the point in going like that...it doesn't even look like fun, just boring.

I agree wholeheartedly that this is NOT english. I've heard it called wenglish (western in english tack). Many of these types of riders also look awkward in their posting...it's a little too active.

I have to say though that you can have flat kneed movement and not lose impulsion and forwardness.

[offgridgirl]

Oy my! that first video was hard to watch....none of them even "look" english....Sad really
The second video was better...but not much.... MY old coach would cringe and cry if she had students riding like this...I'm cringing....:doh:

[Palogal]

This is the winner of the 2009 AQHA Western Pleasure. The horse is slow...but has a three beat lope/canter.
YouTube- AQHA WORLD SHOW WESTERN PLEASURE 2009

[CaddoCinnamon]

That is a good video but it looks though like her back foot was dragging. I am going to be amazed if Cutter will go that slow.

[Palogal]

Wierd...I couldn't find any of the HUS from 09.

[JennyandJosey]

It may be a 3 beat but ugh...he just looks so lame to me.

[WestmanFarrier'sWife]

IMO the AQHA hunter under saddle classes do "sort of" look like western pleasure horses, however niether of the videos really show what I would consider excellent HUS horses. In the HUS classes at the world show and at Congress, the horses have much more extension at the trot and not the slower trot shown in the first video. Their canter is also more extended and move a little more freely. The AQHA has been getting better about placing the cadenced horses that move forward a bit more in the WP. My horse that I showed as a youth went a little faster than the others, but he stayed in frame and had a good cadence, which is why we placed well at world and congress. Really each discipline and breed organization has what their own standards are and it really varies.

I should also say that many of the HUS horses that you see are from the riders going for the "all-around" for the show. Many of those horses are actually western horses that they ride in the English classes. This might be why some people think it looks wierd.

[Palogal]

I found this one...this horse supposedly has points in HUS. His head is a little low for my taste but he moves forward and isn't behind the vertical.

YouTube- Big Bad Lethal AQHA 2008 Congress Hunter Under Saddle - SOLD!

[Palogal]

This is a really nice Working Hunter ride for comparission.

YouTube- 2009 APHA WORLD CHAMPION WORKING HUNTER



My point is...they associations are starting to come around, and encourage forward movement which is great.

[WestmanFarrier'sWife]

I like the working hunter video Palogal. That horse has great extension and you can see how he relaxes his head and neck down like many HUS horses do. When he's coming up to a jump, then his head comes up a bit. My guess is that you would see most of the HUS horses do the same thing if they were to go over jumps. Many people pick the classes they enjoy and they want to ride English without going over the jumps, I'm betting that this is why the HUS class has evolved like it has. Even so, there is quite a difference between an excellent HUS horse and and excellent WP horse.

[Palogal]

It's all starting to come around again, becoming a more practical way to ride. It has everything to do with trend, like that Rollkur nonsense in dressage.

[outriding01]

I dunno, I honestly still think all these videos are on the ridiculous side. The working hunter one is definitely a huge improvement though, especially toward the end when the horse really starts to pick its head up and look at the jumps and not make me feel nervous that he was going to run through it rather than go over it.

This is my (and most of the h/j world's) idea of english riding. An over fences class and a flat test at an A-rated show in the Charles Owen Medal, 1st place. I dunno why it does the pic over the video thing, so annoying...

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y158/Teapot01/th_Ridingclip3.jpg

[Palogal]

Yes, definitely they're still not they way English riding "should be" or where it's roots are but they are improving over the head dragging, peanut rolling nonsense they used to be. I'll look tonight for some bad ones from the past to compare them to.

Those are very good videos BTW. They look more like the form you would want for Fox Hunting which is what Hunters are technically supposed to look like. Forward, bright expression and nice lift over the fences.

[gaited07]

I like the working hunter video Palogal. That horse has great extension and you can see how he relaxes his head and neck down like many HUS horses do. When he's coming up to a jump, then his head comes up a bit. My guess is that you would see most of the HUS horses do the same thing if they were to go over jumps. Many people pick the classes they enjoy and they want to ride English without going over the jumps, I'm betting that this is why the HUS class has evolved like it has. Even so, there is quite a difference between an excellent HUS horse and and excellent WP horse.

This horse is somewhat better than the video's that I supplied but still IMO a low head carriage for my tastes. ;)

It's all starting to come around again, becoming a more practical way to ride. It has everything to do with trend, like that Rollkur nonsense in dressage.

It's a shame that they do the peanut roll to these horses. I don't think I've seen them move like this in the pasture at liberty but I could be wrong.
As for the Rollkur nonsense, no clue but there is always nonsense somewhere!


I dunno, I honestly still think all these videos are on the ridiculous side. The working hunter one is definitely a huge improvement though, especially toward the end when the horse really starts to pick its head up and look at the jumps and not make me feel nervous that he was going to run through it rather than go over it.

This is my (and most of the h/j world's) idea of english riding. An over fences class and a flat test at an A-rated show in the Charles Owen Medal, 1st place. I dunno why it does the pic over the video thing, so annoying...



I'm with you on this one. And your video is in my OPINION what a English horse should look like. I want my horses head up and aware of his next move. I want to see that head so I know where he is going! Not to mention, I would be afraid that I would slide of the neck of the WP/EP horse in the other videos LOL, there is NO head or neck, it's between their legs LOL (sorry:( )

Yes, definitely they're still not they way English riding "should be" or where it's roots are but they are improving over the head dragging, peanut rolling nonsense they used to be. I'll look tonight for some bad ones from the past to compare them to.

Those are very good videos BTW. They look more like the form you would want for Fox Hunting which is what Hunters are technically supposed to look like. Forward, bright expression and nice lift over the fences.

I know quite a few years ago it was getting so ridiculous with how low can you go with that head on the Stock horses. And they all looked like they was on steroids:eek: I'm glad that they are starting to liven up the AQHA.
Oh and that canter, OH MY GOD, SHOOT ME!!!! LOL can't go that so;)

[Palogal]

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/why_not.php

This is rollkur It's hyper flexion of the neck, making the horse break at the vertebrae behind the poll.

[gaited07]

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/why_not.php

This is rollkur It's hyper flexion of the neck, making the horse break at the vertebrae behind the poll.

ah yes, now I remember;)

[Palogal]

Another trend that's absolutly ridiculous. Kind of like the "there is no right diagonal" nonsense that's popular in some circles.

[outriding01]

Wait, what about diagonals? I don't think I've heard of this one, or maybe I'm just not understanding (more lkely)...

[WestmanFarrier'sWife]

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/why_not.php (http://www.sustainabledressage.com/rollkur/why_not.php)

"This is rollkur It's hyper flexion of the neck, making the horse break at the vertebrae behind the poll."

Wow that looks so uncomfortable for the horse! Definitely shows why riding back to front is so important. You won't get the true, beautiful movement otherwise!

[Palogal]

Wait, what about diagonals? I don't think I've heard of this one, or maybe I'm just not understanding (more lkely)...


There are some dressage folks that don't believe there is a "correct" diagonal. They don't rise and fall with the leg on the wall. I've met a couple of pretty high level trainers that believe that...I think it's stupid.

[BalooEyes]

There are some dressage folks that don't believe there is a "correct" diagonal. They don't rise and fall with the leg on the wall. I've met a couple of pretty high level trainers that believe that...I think it's stupid.

Really? People actually think that? My horses have always been pretty upset if I pick up the incorrect diagonal by accident and the trot definitely feels awkward if I'm on the wrong diagonal.

[Palogal]

Really? People actually think that? My horses have always been pretty upset if I pick up the incorrect diagonal by accident and the trot definitely feels awkward if I'm on the wrong diagonal.

If you consider the physics of it on a circle...the shoulders move in circles, so the circle made by the outside shoulder is bigger than the circle made by the inside shoulder to keep the stride even. So, you post to get off of the outside shoulder while it's moving forward and it makes it easier for the horse. It makes total sense.

But yes, people really believe that....boggles my mind.

[outriding01]

Hmm, I never really thought about it. Oh well... I do know if a horse has any back or hind end problems, I can feel it big time when I change diagonals...

I finally got the video of the WP class to load, and while they are some very cute horses, I just don't understand the point of going that ridiculously slow. I'm a very practical person, period. I just can't find anything practical about it whatsoever. It certainly doesn't look pleasurable and I have yet to find someone who can give me a good explanation. I feel like if I could get a good, solid explanation as to the practicality of it, I would understand it and not be so bothered by it... that's just the way my brain works....

[Palogal]

I think WP is supposed to be like a horse you would want to trail ride on, slow and soft. That would drive me nuts to travel that slowly but ya know.

[WestmanFarrier'sWife]

Palogal hit the nail on the head with what the WP class is about. They want to see a nice soft horse that looks like a "pleasure" to ride. Granted it was taken to the extreme with the slowness, but it's nice to see that they are now looking for true movement and will place a horse with a little faster movement as long as it has a nice steady cadence, true movement and doesn't seem to be in a hurry.

[Palogal]

LIke everything else, it went extreme and at one time the horses were crawling around lame. Go figure, folks take something to extreme in the horse world. <cough> dangerous XC fences at Rolex that get people killed <cough>

http://www.rk3de.org/virtual_course.php

[gaited07]

Granted it was taken to the extreme with the slowness, but it's nice to see that they are now looking for true movement and will place a horse with a little faster movement as long as it has a nice steady cadence, true movement and doesn't seem to be in a hurry.

And this was my whole point of the subject. I would much rather watch/ride a horse with NATURAL movements than that EXTREME beyond slow, barely alive movements, dragging its nose in the dirt.

LIke everything else, it went extreme and at one time the horses were crawling around lame. Go figure, folks take something to extreme in the horse world. <cough> dangerous XC fences at Rolex that get people killed <cough>

http://www.rk3de.org/virtual_course.php

Very true! Like all breeds, disciplines, associations, shows and etc. they tend to go over board. Some finally get smart and fix the f-up and then there are those who are, well lets just say, BULLHEADED and stupid and will never change. (before anyone assumes, I speaking of the TWH'S with the soring and stacks)

[Palogal]

Showing and riding have become very different. Which is dumb. My mare Cinnamon is a great little trail horse, she's brave, soft strided, covers ground and is brave in water and stuff but there's no way she'd win Western pleasure even if I did put a western saddle on her. She holds an English frame all the time and she moves forward.

Kind of backwards isn't it? You don't show the horse you would want to ride?

[outriding01]

Yes, very backwards, lol. My horses have always been trained to do anything I want. We would always pend two days a week in the ring working on actual jumping and show practice. The rest of the the time was out in fields yeehawing around. I love showing and winning, but it's boring to just practice for that every day.

I agree that everything gets taken to extremes. The first time I ever saw HUS was about 10-12 years ago at an AQHA show that was being held at the same show grounds I was showing at one weekend. So that was probably a really bad time to experience it.... I was flabbergasted. I definitely agree WP has made some advances. because I saw the days of true peanut rollers and am so glad that is headed out. I still personally think it is entirely too slow and if I had to ride something like that on a trail, I would firstly be afraid it was going to trip on a root and bust it's face dragging it's feet and staring at the ground like that, and secondly that it would take me several hours to ride even a mile. Kind of like stop and go traffic where you figure you can get out and walk faster than it's going....