Bit question?

[WP~Paint]

I currently have my gelding in a Kimberwicke. I feel at times he needs more stopping, but at other times he does not. Right now, in Western, he is in a shanked bit with a billy allen roller mouth piece. He rarely needs to be told what to do but if he does get crappy or get fiesty, he needs that little extra in there to calm him down. What would be a good bit to bump him up to if I can't get him to work in a Kimberwicke. I am going to work with him a little more. There was a lot going on yesterday at the barn, new horses, trailer door in the wind, which i ended up shutting after it spooked him, chain saw...so it was kinda crazy. Just wondered what my options were if i can't get him to go well in this bit, which i hope i can!

[alittleoffkey]

If you can't get him to listen in a Kimberwick then he needs more training. All that commotion is scary to a horse, he might just not be able to handle it well - a lot of horses would act up or not listen with half of that stuff going on. You could try desensitizing him to noise some more... but some horses only have certain tolerances and that's as good as they're going to get.

[luv2show]

Amen to what alittleoffkey said.

Do you back your horse up all the time, right after you stop? about 4-5 steps..

[Arrow]

If you can't get him to listen in a Kimberwick then he needs more training.

I disagree.

Still--why not just use the Billy Allen you have? The circumstances are unclear to me--are you talking about in the show ring or something? Why not just use the Billy Allen all the time?

[cloedoll]

I don't think the answer is to move up to a harsher bit, but first make sure he isn't having any pain in his mouth, his teeth do not need to be floated and that the bit fits properly. From there, I say put some more training, any horse can stop in any bit, no bit, or even bridleless, it just takes training and patience...some more than others. ;)

[Arrow]

That said, though--do a search for Argentine bits--they have nice short little shanks, and you can get them with rollers.

Check out 1, 2, 4, and 5 here (no wires!):
http://www.culturedcowboy.com/bits/pages/bit14.html

[luvs2ride1979]

At this point, I would go with more training and possibly a change in his feed before moving to a new bit.

A kimberwhick is a pretty powerful English bit. If you can't get through to him, then you need some serious pressure/release work. I would work on lots and LOTS of transitions, up, down, and within the gait; lots of walk/halt transitions; work on spiral in/out circles; work on counter bending at the trot and canter on large circles, go from true bend to full counter bend, hold until he relaxes, then back to true bend; work on half pass/two track, back up, and turn on the haunches/pivot; and anything else that gets him thinking.

Work in your kimberwhick with the goal of getting him lighter and lighter in the bridle. Use ALL of your aids, not just your reins (seat, leg, voice). Use indirect rein as well as direct rein. Reward him clearly when he does something correctly, even if it was simple or it took him 10 tries. You want him to easily understand what is acceptable.

You might consider some Dressage lessons. Dressage will help any horse competing in almost any event. Dressage works on your communication and his lightness. A GOOD Dressage trainer (I prefer the Classical type) will work with you no matter what kind of tack you use. Dressage is a training method ;-).

I would also look at his feed. Nutrition plays a LARGE role in horse behavior. If he's on sweet feed, take him off. If he's on alfalfa or other rich hay, switch or mix in some simple bermuda or timothy hay. If he looses weight, give him more hay. Put him on a ration balancer or a vitamin supplement to take the place of the grain or pelleted feed you were feeding him. Since putting my horses on a more "natural" diet, they have improved in health and mind set. They both have a better work ethic and are less spooky to new things.

[luvs2ride1979]

Single joint Argentine bits are very harsh and should be avoided, for the same reason that Tom Thumb bits should be avoided. They both have similar (negative) effects on a horse. The Billy Allen mouth is much "nicer" and less likely to cause pain.

http://www.cha-ahse.org/railarticles/tom.htm
http://www.todayshorse.com/Articles/TroublewithTomThumb.htm

[WP~Paint]

I need to have the girl that is riding him in lessons to use the kimberwicke and not the hackamore. My friend is huge on hackmores, which I like them too, but I want my horse to be used to a bit because I plan on showing him in the future. As for feed, he is on Purina. I'm not sure what the problem is, hopefully I can get it figured out.

[luvs2ride1979]

I need to have the girl that is riding him in lessons to use the kimberwicke and not the hackamore. My friend is huge on hackmores, which I like them too, but I want my horse to be used to a bit because I plan on showing him in the future. As for feed, he is on Purina. I'm not sure what the problem is, hopefully I can get it figured out.

The Purina could be causing him to act up. Put him on a hay-only diet for 2-3 weeks and see if his attitude improves. (two-three weeks without grain shouldn't cause him to lose weight, especially if you throw him an extra flake of hay or two ;-) ) If at the end of two weeks his attitude has improved, then the feed is likely a contributing factor. Come back then and we can help you build a more natural diet for him.

[WP~Paint]

It's not the feed, since I have moved him from the previous barn, he has calmed down sooo much, because of the feed. I am also primarily a Western rider and just playing with English, so I was probably confusing him too. I hope when I go up there again, there is not so much going on and I can really work with him. I think the two new horses will still be in the arena, there trying to quarantine them for 2 weeks before setting them out with the herd. So I may have to wait and see.

[WP~Paint]

Also, he was on a hay only diet before and that was not good for him. He was hyper then too. I am hoping it was just hectic that was causing problems.

[Arrow]

Hmmm...I retract my statements from page 1, sounds like he needs more training. Looking forward to updates.:)

[jeezitsjacki]

I would say just work with him more should help the problem. work on desensitizing and maybe lunging before the ride

[luvs2ride1979]

Hmmm...I retract my statements from page 1, sounds like he needs more training. Looking forward to updates.:)

Me too, though I still don't like Purina feeds, lol.

I would say take him back to ground work and pretend like he knows nothing! Do lots of in-hand work, round pen work, lunge line, take him on "walks" in hand all over the property and on the trail (lead him from BOTH sides!), etc. Work on gaining his trust on the ground first, in all situations, then start him with riding again.

We're always in such a hurry to ride that we often overlook or rush through ground work. Sometimes it pays to take a few steps backward and revisit ground work when saddle work becomes unproductive.

[zoel_222]

I agree with the others that he needs more training. All these "my horse is a jerk so let's stick him in the harshest bit you've got" threads are starting to bug me.... Switching to a harsher bit on an horse who lacks training may seem like the thing to do to get him to listen, but it is just a bad idea. All you'd be doing is making his mouth harder and harder until he'll run through every single bit you put in his mouth and will just become dead to your cues. I can ride my horses with no bit, bridle, halter or anything because they're TRAINED. A harsh bit is not a stopping device! It's a horse-pissing-off device!!

[sgttibbs521]

i've seen 1st hand what it's like to use a harsh bit on a horse and the horse wasn't fun to ride because if she took off, you can't stop her. I believe that you shouldn't go to a harsher bit, that's just going to make it worse. I would go back a few steps and put him in a less harsh bit and work with him, flexing and such, and get his attention. i don't like how some people think getting a harsher bit is the answer. just put him in an easier bit, work him, etc... after a while, you can get him to pay more attention to you and before you know it, you can ride him bareback and in a halter! good luck!

[Kowgirlkate]

If the other rider needs the kimberwick, why? Maybe he just doesnt like her if she's a beginner, or doesnt know what she wants cuz she herself is learning? just a thought...

[Dakota Sunrise]

I have to agree with everyone else. It doesn't sound like the bit is real the problem, but maybe a lack of training. Especially since you rolled out a pain issue, his diet, or a teeth problem.

I know different horses need different bits, and some respond better to some than others, but I'm not big on moving up to a harsher bit when the horse has some behavior issues, especially if they are all ready in a not so mild bit. I'm a western rider and not too familair with lots of English bits, so I'm not sure how harsh/mild a kimberwicke is.

My mare is a very hyper, nervous horse too. I started out riding her in a Wonder bit, which is what her old owners suggested to me, but I wasn't sure that I liked it. So for when we're schooling, I switched her to a simple full cheek snaffle (yes, I know it's an English bit and we're western, but I don't show so it doesn't matter), and started doing more slow work (transitions, whoaing excerises, bending and flexing, etc) and it's really helping her a LOT. I'm not sure what bit I'll use when I start gaming her, but for the time being I think the snaffle is best for her. Maybe the same thing (snaffle and more slow work) could help your horse too.

[Remali]

He just needs more time and more training, a more harsh bit is only going to make him more hyper, harsh bits scare the crap out of a lot of horses.
I would go back to a more mild bit, maybe a snaffle...and just start all over again with his training.

And, I would not want a beginner using a more harsh bit....a beginner may not have steady hands so I would not want a beginning rider using a kimberwicke if it were my horse.

Forgot to ask...how old is your horse? Most of the time just going back to some ground work and the basics, and using a gentle bit...solves a lot of the problems.

[WP~Paint]

I'm not sure she used that bit on him, I'll have to ask. He is 7 but needs more training. I only get up there once a week right now with school and now the weather is getting colder and just plain gross. I hope this summer to work with him. I don't know what his deal is. He does well for the girl though.

[FlitterBug]

I agree with others that he will need more training. One other thing that you may want to think about is the mouthpiece. I know several horses that don't do well at all in a single jointed mouthpiece. I know one horse that went through the bit and threw his head for years, when he came to my barn, we used the same bit, just a 3 piece, all the problems went away. One of my horses also does much better with a french link rather than a plain snaffle.

[WP~Paint]

I will never put him in a jointed mouthpiece again:D I was told to use a tom thumb years ago before I knew much about them, he hated it, threw his head all the time. His kimberwicke is a 3 piece and has a copper roller in the middle. I wonder if he doesn't like that? Hmmmm...

[Flair]

I will never put him in a jointed mouthpiece again:D I was told to use a tom thumb years ago before I knew much about them, he hated it, threw his head all the time. His kimberwicke is a 3 piece and has a copper roller in the middle. I wonder if he doesn't like that? Hmmmm...


The kimberwick is three-piece jointed. I like a French link myself because it makes a nice U-shape in the horse's mouth, and that's really good for a horse with a thick tongue or low palate.

I think there's a major difference between a jointed curb like a a Tom thumb, where the reins attach down on bottom of the curb bit and a jointed snaffle bit where the reins attach on the bit ring. There's a whole matter of less leverage (do snaffles even create leverage?) and pressure on the poll because you're working with direct reining rather than creating that poll pressure and leverage the way a curb bit works.

So for when we're schooling, I switched her to a simple full cheek snaffle (yes, I know it's an English bit and we're western, but I don't show so it doesn't matter), and started doing more slow work (transitions, whoaing excerises, bending and flexing, etc) and it's really helping her a LOT. I'm not sure what bit I'll use when I start gaming her, but for the time being I think the snaffle is best for her. Maybe the same thing (snaffle and more slow work) could help your horse too.

Full cheeks: Nawt Jst 4 English Anymorez ;)

John Lyons swears by full cheeks, and he rides Western. I ride a sort of quasi-Western and love my full cheek snaffle. I've seen plenty of Western riders with full cheeks on their horses. Snaffles are definitely great little bits.

I'd agree with other posters that a stronger harsher bit isn't what's necessary for stopping power. I'm a big fan of snaffles since I've never really used any other bit. I trail ride Mitch in a full cheek snaffle, and back when I had my old Thoroughbred, we'd even go cantering on the beach and he just had an eggbutt snaffle. Stopping power isn't in the bit, and neither is control.

[Remali]

I have a kimberwicke that has a very low port curb, maybe he would prefer that? It has no roller, nothing...
just a plain pow port curb kimberwicke. My mare went really great in and she seemed to prefer that bit.

[Palogal]

Amen to what alittleoffkey said.

Do you back your horse up all the time, right after you stop? about 4-5 steps..


I agree with both ya'll.
A kimberwicke is pretty heavy metal. I've used one temporarily with a horse that had no breaks cross country but after a few rides went back to a snaffle. I would not use a kimberwicke as "my bit". Temporarily sometimes.

[Remali]

I think a kimberwicke is fine in an experieced rider's hands (someone who also has soft hands), but not for a beginner or inexperienced rider.

[WP~Paint]

I have very soft hands, my old trainer told me that. So, ugh, I think he is just being a turd since I can't get up there much right now!

[Palogal]

A tom thumb is a pretty nasty bit IMO as well.
I guess before I changed bits I would talk to the trainer and ask what you can do to give him the training he needs. My guess is her answer will have the words "transition" , "lateral" and "back" in it:)

[Palogal]

I think a kimberwicke is fine in an experieced rider's hands (someone who also has soft hands), but not for a beginner or inexperienced rider.

We can agree to disagree on that.;)