I love my job

[Reinmaker]

Sent a horse home today after 30 days of training. We got a referral from a very good client in need of someone to help one of his employees with a horse. This horse is 5 years old. He had been saddled and ridden a few times, but had started locking up and rearing. He intimidated his owner and although she is an experienced rider she felt she needed some help with him. So we took him in for 30 days. He was a very nervous horse when we got him, and would shoulder out and go the opposite direction you were pointing his nose. He also had the tendency to lock up and then hop up in the front and strike the ground. The rearing was never what I would call a full blown rear but could have easily escalated to that. Long story short, today she came to get him, and I rode him for her. He was "following his nose", trotting and loping in both directions and never locked up once. She was very happy.

I normally don't really care too much about anything that isn't a reining or cowhorse prospect/show horse, but I do love it when a horse comes in and leaves much better than when they got here with a happy client. It is very rewarding.

Here is a bonus vid. This is a three year old that we broke out last fall (30 days), then he went home to get bigger and stronger. We have had him back for about 60 days. He was quite a handful when he first came, bucked, tossed his head and fought the bit a lot. He still is a handful at times, haha (no more bucking obviously), but is coming along. I rarely have pics or vid but we had this made for the client so I figured I'd post it for y'all. It isn't much, just trotting and loping some circles working on body position and frame. I'm going to try to get some vids soon of our futurity prospects(3 year olds) that we have had in training since last year, they are all spinning and sliding now and getting really fun to ride. This is not MY youtube channel.

YouTube- Twist 2010.wmv

[miatapony]

so do are you ready for Willow then ....???

[Reinmaker]

Nah I actually think Cyb is doing the right thing trying to get her sold without putting more money in to her at this point. She will probably need to come down on the price some but it doesn't sound like it would be worth it to her to put her in training for 30-60 days. As she will not be able to recoup that money. Meaning the horse isn't going to be worth 800-1600 more with that little training.

[miatapony]

well i was thinking pro-bono work come on now we all need to help out. i think this mare can get over what ever is in her head.

[JackieB]

That's a terrific video, Reinmaker! Thanks for sharing it. So much good going on with that horse that it would take a long time just to list it all. You can work with Buster anytime, and that's saying a lot for me. I see a horse that is calm, willing, and comfortable.

[AppyLady]

That was a great video! Thanks for sharing.

[Equine_Woman]

That's awesome!! Nice horse in the video!!

[WashingtonBay]

Nicely done :)

[mare]

I tell ya. Seeing an owner get a fresh start with their horse and watching the look on their face and the change in their body language when they start gaining confidence is just great. I had kind of reached the point where it was like, "So what if I can ride this horse? I only need one. How can I help it happen for someone else? For the person who has dreams invested in it." Good for you for making it happen for those two.

The way the young horse in the video is going is beautiful to watch, too. Thanks for posting it.

[Bessie13]

That was a pleasure to watch. Nice seeing a horse come along so well. Nice job. Thanks for sharing.

[Reinmaker]

Jackie, that is saying a lot. I appreciate it. I have to warn you though I can't promise he wouldn't have a sliding stop and a spin on him when I was through. :)

Everyone else, thanks for the kind words. I promise to try to get some more exciting vids up soon. I just need to get someone to hold the camera. We are usually so busy with all the horses in training we just don't have time for a lot of pics and vids.

[Country Girl 43]

Nice video, nice riding!

And I WANT YOUR ARENA!!! :D

[JackieB]

Jackie, that is saying a lot. I appreciate it. I have to warn you though I can't promise he wouldn't have a sliding stop and a spin on him when I was through. :)

:) That would be pretty cool!

[Me'N'Chic]

Nice video and NICE job with the horse, Reinmaker! I agree, CG...I WANT THAT ARENA!! ;)

[shewasmyshadow]

Everyone else, thanks for the kind words. I promise to try to get some more exciting vids up soon. I just need to get someone to hold the camera. We are usually so busy with all the horses in training we just don't have time for a lot of pics and vids.

Tri-pod. ;)

It's interesting to see the differences in riding posture between reining and dressage. Why are your legs so far forward? Is there any reason for that difference? Just curious.

[Reinmaker]

Yes there is a reason. You could never sit a spin or stop with your legs way under you, and you don't want make a huge body and leg position adjustment every time the horse does a manuever. It would be pretty difficult to get your legs way under you in the saddles we ride in. They are made so you sit back more on your seat pockets with your legs forward.

We want our legs forward so that we are in a position to ask the horse to do anything we want at speed and we can keep our upper bodies back. It is funny seeinga dressage or eventer ride a reiner they are constantly falling forward on the horse many times having to catch themselves on the neck, especially when they say woah and the horse plants it right then. I am sure I would look funny on a dressage horse to.

I can ride with my legs under me it was how I was taught originally.

[shewasmyshadow]

Yes there is a reason. You could never sit a spin or stop with your legs way under you, and you don't want make a huge body and leg position adjustment every time the horse does a manuever. It would be pretty difficult to get your legs way under you in the saddles we ride in. They are made so you sit back more on your seat pockets with your legs forward.

We want our legs forward so that we are in a position to ask the horse to do anything we want at speed and we can keep our upper bodies back. It is funny seeinga dressage or eventer ride a reiner they are constantly falling forward on the horse many times having to catch themselves on the neck, especially when they say woah and the horse plants it right then. I am sure I would look funny on a dressage horse to.

I can ride with my legs under me it was how I was taught originally.

Yes, my natural posture is definitely having my legs under me as well. The pretend string through the head and all that... Is it easier to ride a buck in that position??

[zoel_222]

Very cool video. You're one hell of a trainer. :)

[Reinmaker]

Yes, my natural posture is definitely having my legs under me as well. The pretend string through the head and all that... Is it easier to ride a buck in that position??

Oh yeah I heard the whole head, shoulder, hip, heal a lot from one of my instructors when I was a youngster.

As for the buck, yes I would say so. Anytime your upper body is back and your feet are forward you are going to have an easier time staying back and seated if a horse bucks.

[shewasmyshadow]

Very interesting... I should have thought of that when I was training Sombra. Course, maybe if I was sitting back further I would have broken my tailbone instead of just bruised it when she bucked. :p

[TLC97]

Rein- Just curious as to why you keep your back cinch so loose??

[sweetcakes2005]

that was an awesome video! great looking horse too!

[Reinmaker]

Rein- Just curious as to why you keep your back cinch so loose??

I don't usually. I just didn't go around to the other side and tighten it up on him. He is just a might small and it hanges that loose with him even when I tighten it all the way up on the left side. Usually I just want it hanging down a few inches off the belly.

[zoel_222]

God, I tried to ride like that today on my seat pockets with my legs forward just to see what it was like and it was hard! It feels really different. I gave up after about 30 seconds. :doh:

[shewasmyshadow]

LOL, Zoel. Can we get a video of that? :p

[zoel_222]

Haha nope. :p I felt like I was going to flip right over the back of the horse.

[shewasmyshadow]

Definately not. ;) LOL. *runs away before Zoel can come after her with spell check*

[zoel_222]

rawr :mad: :p

[TLC97]

Well I would have tightened it up, especially on a younger horse. That looks like a BAD accident waiting to happen.

Zoel- Not everyone who rides western rides like that, believe me. They would get dumped on their head.

[Reinmaker]

"Dumped on their head"?? Really, care to explain that one. I'd love to hear your reasoning behind that one.

[Dakota Sunrise]

Very cool video, Reinmaker. The horse looks great and nice riding.:) Want to come work with Beauty for me?:p I'd give anything to have her loping like that! Sometimes I wish I could take her to a trainer, but oh well.

[zoel_222]

Well I would have tightened it up, especially on a younger horse. That looks like a BAD accident waiting to happen.

Zoel- Not everyone who rides western rides like that, believe me. They would get dumped on their head.

I do ride western, I just don't ride reining style. I don't think you'd get dumped on your head... it just takes some getting used to. If everyone who rode like that got dumped on their head then obviously we wouldn't have just watched that video of reinmaker riding so beautifully.

[Kara]

The saddle makes a ton of different though. Reining saddles are deep so it kind of "forces" you to sit like that.. Or from my experiences..


I completely agree with the back girth, its loose enough that horse could get a leg through it..

[TLC97]

"Dumped on their head"?? Really, care to explain that one. I'd love to hear your reasoning behind that one.


Nope, because I will say black and you will say white. Let's just agree to disagree.

[shewasmyshadow]

Very cool video, Reinmaker. The horse looks great and nice riding.:) Want to come work with Beauty for me?:p I'd give anything to have her loping like that! Sometimes I wish I could take her to a trainer, but oh well.

Oh, I know! It'd be fun to ride any horse loping like that. Of course, if we all had an arena like that to work in, then it would it a heck of a lot easier from the get go. ;) Don't worry, Rein, I'm not "dis"ing you, I'm just jealous. :D

[Reinmaker]

Nope, because I will say black and you will say white. Let's just agree to disagree.

Oh so you can't back it up? That's what I thought.

[TLC97]

Take it how you want.

I truly could care.

[Tiz]

Yeah, so much for that.

Reinmaker, has Dakota asked you for any tips on getting her mare to rate? I'd love to hear any tips you can share.

[TLC97]

Look Tiz "rides" in to share.............................NOTHING.

[Peggy Sue]

For comparision :)
YouTube- NRHA Reining Horse Music Video

[BrittanyG]

Zoel- Not everyone who rides western rides like that, believe me. They would get dumped on their head.

This comment makes absolutely no sense..

[Peggy Sue]

ACtually Brittany it does

I have NEVER seen anybody ride like that, that is any good that is.

Even cutters who are known to have bad legs are that bad off

His legs are WAY to far forward and let's not even talk about having his foot all the way in the stirrup like it is

compare his riding to the video I posted of World Champions

[Tiz]

Comparisons involve equals, Peggy. Could you find a video of these people slow loping around?

Reinmaker, if you look at the video, do you know who the horse is whose color looks like a Hereford cow? Trashadeous relative? Crop out or Paint? Pretty different.

[zoel_222]

Reinmaker, if you look at the video, do you know who the horse is whose color looks like a Hereford cow? Trashadeous relative? Crop out or Paint? Pretty different.

I noticed that too, thought it was pretty cool.

[Kara]

I agree his legs are too far out, but a lot of ropers ride like that's why I'm not to bothered too much by his legs. When you stop a horse at reining that where you want your legs, not when your loping a horse in circles.

[BrittanyG]

Comparisons involve equals, Peggy. Could you find a video of these people slow loping around?

This is exactly what I was going to say! Fast circles and slow circles are completely different. My reining trainer rides the same way as reinmaker, especially if he is trying to slow down a young horse. In fact, I also ride this way when I am trying to sit deep and encourage a nice slow lope with my horse. I also have no idea why he would fall on his head?

[Peggy Sue]

Tiz he claims to be a professional these guys are professionals he is saying you have to have your legs there and HELLO these guys DON'T the only time their legs come forward is to STOP.

Here you go Tiz
YouTube- JUNE 09: Westwood Diamond (Fancy) Loping Exercises

[Kara]

. I also have no idea why he would fall on his head?

Think about it. If the horse took off his head would hit the dirt, because he isn't under himself to keep himself in the saddle.

[Tiz]

Who is that, Peggy?

[Peggy Sue]

You wanted slow lope there it is
looks much better then his :)

I have no clue I was searching slow lope reining LOL

[Tiz]

Oh, I thought you were trying to prove that Reinmaker wasn't a professional by showing professionals who had a different seat then he does. Nevermind.

Anyway, the guy in the latest video sure slaps the saddle with his rear. Hope he uses a fancy gel saddle pad, at least.

[Peggy Sue]

I dont' think he is a professional and if he is I feel sorry for his clients if they believe the smoke he blows.

His equation sucks big time and is a disgrace to western riders.

[Tiz]

Oh, x+y=z? Looks like you nailed it again, Peggy.

[zoel_222]

wow.... :rolleyes:

[Tiz]

Come on, Z. I thought for sure you'd get it.

[zoel_222]

Tiz.... What?

I was "wow"ing to the comment that he's a disgrace.

Ehh I think I'm having a slow moment...

[WashingtonBay]

Tiz he claims to be a professional these guys are professionals he is saying you have to have your legs there and HELLO these guys DON'T the only time their legs come forward is to STOP.

Here you go Tiz
YouTube- JUNE 09: Westwood Diamond (Fancy) Loping Exercises (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnQhPH0aPOs)

You know... I hate to even take a side in this apparent catfight, but I have to agree, he's slappin' the saddle pretty good there with his behind, not that I blame him with that choppy stiff lope on that horse.

I know this much > < about reining exercises, but if he's not supposed to be counter cantering at the start, then he's just simply on the wrong lead, which doesn't help.

ALL - first off, as a gal, I don't much criticize the seat of guys, because I think they have considerations I don't have in how they sit a horse ;)

My opinion on equitation by trainers is that pretty is as pretty does. IMHO, Reinmaker has a nice comfortable relaxed seat and his horse is likewise, relaxed, free moving and comfortable while being trained.

I'd say this sort of personal catty egging against our fellow members is not encouraged, and I'd be right. I don't like seeing it. I certainly don't want it to become the norm. That said, I do have memory of Reinmaker himself being pretty hard on a fellow member and I allowed it in the spirit of free exchange of opinion. Given that, I guess, RM, you've now got yours. You don't come here without starting your own controversy sometimes, and so I don't think you need or deserve my protection now. I think you made this bed.

But I'll just say for the record... it is NOT going to be our habit and custom to start ripping on each other's riding and horsemanship for sport. There are plenty of sites you can join to do that. I would rather be a place where we help and support fellow horsemen, not sit in judgment of them. And there is a point were criticism becomes not constructive, just insulting, petty and mean spirited, and I am on a sharp lookout instances of when and where we reach and cross that.

Kapeesh? :cool:

[Tiz]

"ALL - first off, as a gal, I don't much criticize the seat of guys, because I think they have considerations I don't have in how they sit a horse ;)"

Funny...

I'm moving this forward, so it doesn't get lost.

Reinmaker, if you look at the video, do you know who the horse is whose color looks like a Hereford cow? Trashadeous relative? Crop out or Paint? Pretty different.

And...

Reinmaker, has Dakota asked you for any tips on getting her mare to rate? I'd love to hear any tips you can share.

[TLC97]

Think about it. If the horse took off his head would hit the dirt, because he isn't under himself to keep himself in the saddle.

Sooo glad someone gets it.

While most of you know PeggySue and I have had BATTLES in the past (we just don't discuss protien in feed anymore, & she still thinks I can't read):p I will say I have to agree with her here.

[vicklynn]

Guess I havent been here in awhile.
I saw all that nice nice comments in the beginning and didnt want to say anything.

RM and I agree on some things, but this is not one of them.

I do not sit perfectly in the saddle, but I hate to say it, I have RM beat in that vid.
Knees, legs, way to far forward, slumped at the shoulders, feet to far in the stirups.
That back cinch, wow, just wow, talk about way to loose.

What gets me is, and while Im not into bashing my fellow members, this place seems a bit to fru fru at times. We pick and choose who we want to correct and let others get by with the same thing. That makes NO sense to me. If position is wrong for Jack, then it is for Jill too. Why I stay out of so many threads until someone has posted, unless I just cant hold myself any longer.

TLC97...Peggy Sue and I have had our battles in the past too.
We talk often(thats an understatement)and I have gotten to know her.
To hear her say the things she types, is so so different. You hear what she is saying.
She sure has brought me around on a few things I needed to hear.
She really isnt a B....oh wait, sorry Peggy Sue, you are a B, thats your right...LMBO

[Reinmaker]

Wow this thread really took off. LOL.

I'll take it from the top and address a few points.


ACtually Brittany it does

I have NEVER seen anybody ride like that, that is any good that is.

Even cutters who are known to have bad legs are that bad off

His legs are WAY to far forward and let's not even talk about having his foot all the way in the stirrup like it is

compare his riding to the video I posted of World Champions

You are full of crap. I can't believe I am defending myself to someone who needed a clinic just to lope their horse but you opened the can of worms with your ignorant and derogatory statements.

Everyone in that video you posted at times rides with there legs in the same general area I do. Maybe not quite as far forward but at times they do, depending on the horse and the situation. I know I have actually been in the warm up pen riding with EACH and EVERYONE of them. Yeah that's right cause you know I actually do this for a living and am at the reinings. You can see them doing it in the video you posted.


The fast circles are different and everyone has a different style. Take Craig Schmersal for instance(he is in your vid). He is a phenomenal trainer and a great rider(he was just at our last show in Florida, got to chat with him a bit about some things). He practically stands up in his fast circles. I think that is really dangerous and know a lot of trainers who do as well cause if the horse stumbles you could easily go right over the front of it, but he gets it done so more power to him. I dang sure ain't going to critique him, just not my style for fast circles. I prefer more how shawn sits it.

In that video you posted if you looked carefully most of those guys were sitting way back and had their feet way forward in their run downs and their spins :rolleyes:.

As for the stirrups, hilarious. Way to show your ignorance. Those stirrups are specifically made to put your feet in them all the way to the heel. If you had even a modicum of knowledge about cutters, reining or working cow horse surely you would know this. I am in absolute shock you even said this, but I guess I shouldn't be. It is not your fault you just don't know.



Tiz he claims to be a professional these guys are professionals he is saying you have to have your legs there and HELLO these guys DON'T the only time their legs come forward is to STOP.

Here you go Tiz


He is counter cantering you genius. He has to keep his leg back under him to drive the hip over to keep that horse on the incorrect lead going around. I don't know who that is (at least I don't recognize him), but he isn't the model of perfection with his seat. I don't claim to be either but that is another bad comparison especially considering the way he is bouncing up out of the saddle and the fact that he is counter cantering most of the time.

You couldn't be more wrong about the only time their legs come forward is to stop. You either aren't paying attention or can't see. Again I don't need youtube I've actually been right there next to them. I do this everyday for a living.

Think about it. If the horse took off his head would hit the dirt, because he isn't under himself to keep himself in the saddle.

That is just nonsense. I have never fallen off a horse backwards nor even been in danger of doing so. You do realize that rundowns are when we as riders sit the farthest back with our legs the farthest forward, and that is when our horses are running the fastest?

I know this much > < about reining exercises, but if he's not supposed to be counter cantering at the start, then he's just simply on the wrong lead, which doesn't help.

WB he isn't doing a pattern there. He looks to be purposefully counter cantering.

You don't come here without starting your own controversy sometimes, and so I don't think you need or deserve my protection now. I think you made this bed. HAHA that's true.

I'll finish up with this. Not one of you that has critiqued me could even ride that horse much less get it to lope around like that. Your untrained eyes don't see what is going on and that is a good thing. You aren't supposed to. He is supposed to look easy and comfortable and relaxed. That is my job, make the horse look good. He is extremely difficult to ride. He doesn't like framing his face, he is very catty and will jump and act up at any moment. The entire time I am riding him I am shifting pressure in my seat and legs, giving and taking with each rein and coaxing him along to keep him going. On a fully broke finished horse I probably wouldn't have my legs that far forward at a relaxed slow lope, but this is a three year old that is cat quick with 90 days of riding that could something stupid at any point and time. Therefore I am in the absolutely best position possible to ride it out and counter it should he have a "young" moment.

As for the consensus by a few that my riding is bad, that is your opinion. I would like for just one of you to tell me why it should be credible. Which one of you has competed in reining or working cowhorse, much less won anything? Which one of you has worked for an NRHA professional on the top 40 list? I ride every day, it is all I do now. This a full time gig for me. We have 19 horses in training right now. We have world champions, congress winners, and big time money earners in the barn. The NRHA professional I ride with is a judge in both NRHA and NRCHA. Our clients have won youth world titles, non-pro titles and finished in the top ten at almost every major event in the country. I could list a page full of accomplishments in reining and working cowhorse. We show regularly and we get the job done. I give lessons weekly and the clients I work with are very happy with my instruction and the progress they make. Those are my credentials.

To be fair I did want to say that the back cinch critique was a fair one. I should have tightened it up. Not the safest thing in the world to have done, letting hang that loose.

Tiz I'll hit up your question in another post.

[Reinmaker]

Tiz that horse is by Gunner(colonels smoking gun). He really throws that big bald face and the white to his colts.

No DS has not asked me about rate. It would depend on the situation and what was happening for me to give correct advice.

I just want to add one more thing. Every rider has a little different style and that style must be adapted to the particular horse and situation. Each horse stops(slides) a little differently therefore you have to make slight adjustments in how you sit it, spins a little differently(some seem to push you back when they spin others seem to pitch you forward), and respond a little differently to seat and leg pressure. Leg position and seat aren't an exact science. The main thing is that rider stay balanced and centered over their horse. In a position to give aids and cues when and where they are neccessary and with performance horses, you must stay back and in a position that enables you to not fall forward during the manuevers. This isn't equitation class it is performance horses. Our job is to get the horses shown.

[Peggy Sue]

See RM that is the big difference between you and most of us on here we dont' think nor act ike we are perfect. Go on with your sh** scooping happy self with your rose colored glasses when your name is up there with them I will still think you are a poor excuse of a western rider

You just back tracked all over yourself ... first it was that was how you have to ride reining but when videos are posted showing you wrong you change your story. WHATEVER

[WashingtonBay]

WB he isn't doing a pattern there. He looks to be purposefully counter cantering.


Fair enough :)

Always enjoy the show when you're around...

Just try to stay out of the mud... EVERYONE.

[Reinmaker]

I didn't backtrack one bit. Did you even read what I wrote? I specifically talked about all them getting their legs forward and sitting back. I also specifically pointed out that I DO NOT think I am perfect. You have an obvious agenda. That's fine, your opinion doesn't carry much weight peggy. You've done nothing to deserve it mattering.

Don't worry my name will be up there with theirs one day. It is one of my goals and I plan on achieving it. I am excited that I am on my way to doing just that. I love that I get to ride horses everyday for a living. I love seeing clients achieve their goals and watching the horses progess under my training. It is very rewarding.

I also strive to get better each and every day. I love chatting with other professionals and asking them how they get horses to perform at their best. I talk to them every chance I get. I am constantly trying to learn and become more knowledgeable and better at what I do.

[Peggy Sue]

Yes there is a reason. You could never sit a spin or stop with your legs way under you, and you don't want make a huge body and leg position adjustment every time the horse does a manuever. It would be pretty difficult to get your legs way under you in the saddles we ride in. They are made so you sit back more on your seat pockets with your legs forward.

We want our legs forward so that we are in a position to ask the horse to do anything we want at speed and we can keep our upper bodies back. It is funny seeinga dressage or eventer ride a reiner they are constantly falling forward on the horse many times having to catch themselves on the neck, especially when they say woah and the horse plants it right then. I am sure I would look funny on a dressage horse to.

I can ride with my legs under me it was how I was taught originally.

For comparision :)
YouTube- NRHA Reining Horse Music Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euGG7sgjTM4)

here is what you said in case you forgot and here I posted the video SHOWING you are wrong ... then you say oh they all do it .... the only places these guys have their legs forward is for the stops and your legs still make thiers look back.

and why are your feet so far in the stirrups?? and why are the stirrups so long?

[Reinmaker]

I stand by everything I wrote there. It is how I have been coached by numerous NRHA professionals, it is how I coach non pros.

That video you posted did nothing to disprove what I wrote or how I ride. If you can't see that it is because you don't want to see it.



and why are your feet so far in the stirrups?? and why are the stirrups so long?


Now I know you aren't even reading my response. I addressed the part you already aksed, and pointed to your ignorance. I couldn't believe you brought it up once, bringing it up twice and pointing out your own ignorance again is simply astounding. I wrote:

As for the stirrups, hilarious. Way to show your ignorance. Those stirrups are specifically made to put your feet in them all the way to the heel. If you had even a modicum of knowledge about cutters, reining or working cow horse surely you would know this. I am in absolute shock you even said this, but I guess I shouldn't be. It is not your fault you just don't know.

My stirrup length is just fine.

[Peggy Sue]

Gee you can't PROVE me wrong so you go to name calling wonder if you do that about clients as well...

better go tell the rest of the boys they are riding all wrong now...

[miatapony]

Ok this is all im saying so take it as you like. I ride cutters and i do not see anything wrong other than the back cinch (that is equipment not ridding) i also ride with my feet all the way into my stirups. it is alot more commfy. it is just the way it is . IF youve never ridden A REINER or CUTTER get off your high horse.

[Tiz]

"Always enjoy the show when you're around..."

It's fun to have someone whose made it as far as you chiming in here, RM. I couldn't help but think of Dan Ackroyd and Jane Curtin for SNL's Weekend Update as I read your response this time though. Good stuff.

A word to the wise? You probably already know this, but getting Peggy to admit a scintilla of error is like trying to take a big, juicy ham bone away from a hound dog that's been lost tracking for a month. It's pretty entertaining, but usually winds up with WB closing it down!

Ah, it's been a good day on the forum.

[Reinmaker]

Gee you can't PROVE me wrong so you go to name calling wonder if you do that about clients as well...

better go tell the rest of the boys they are riding all wrong now...

Umm where did I call you a name, and your right I can't "prove" you wrong, as you can't "prove" me wrong. We each have an opinion. I happen to actually train reining horses for a living and compete in the NRHA. You can't lope your own horse. People can decide for themselves which one of us they want to think is right. ;)

[cyb]

so do are you ready for Willow then ....???
I had no idea Willow was brought up in this thread.......come on RM don't you want to have a go with Willow?

[Reinmaker]

"Always enjoy the show when you're around..."

It's fun to have someone whose made it as far as you chiming in here, RM. I couldn't help but think of Dan Ackroyd and Jane Curtin for SNL's Weekend Update as I read your response this time though. Good stuff.

A word to the wise? You probably already know this, but getting Peggy to admit a scintilla of error is like trying to take a big, juicy ham bone away from a hound dog that's been lost tracking for a month. It's pretty entertaining, but usually winds up with WB closing it down!

Ah, it's been a good day on the forum.

I know it is an excercise in futility. The stirrup thing is a classic example.

You know it would have been more fun if I wasn't having to post from my phone while sitting on a horse earlier. Then we could have really gotten in to it. LOL:eek::)

I actually did get a pretty good laugh about that. Here I was sitting on a beautiful three year old who is coming along nicely (he happens to be by Chic Please out of a topsail cody mare), and I am reading critiques about my riding from ladies on the internet. It just struck me funny.

[TLC97]

I can NOT believe I am going to defend PS here (hell just frozen over).

I have a tendency to cram a little foot in the stir-up too. BUT you have to admit RM your position is back more than the videos PS posted.

Also to bring up why someone is having an issue loping their horse when they have NEVER claimed to be a trainer is truly petty. NOT EVERYONE will jump on anything and go. I have learned with age to admit when I am in over my head with a horse and move on. I also have responsiblities, son, husband.

YOU-RM- started the name calling. You may have been around some big trainers and can train for clients to win, but I just do not see you being a big one someday.

Tiz------- BUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Never seen a pict. of you riding, yet to claim to have all this experience. Most of you what state I have read in the QH Journal.

[WashingtonBay]

Look... this has been a 'let's get personal' free for all, on a thread where I would not have expected it to have ever started. Period. No one here is in any position to start complaining about name calling.

I'm actually impressed with RM's restraint so far in the face of a lot of a lot of insults. Not that I'm saying he shouldn't be. But don't push, ladies, if you don't want push back.

I wish very much this thread had hope of constructive outcome. Right now, I think it's 100 to 1 against.

[Reinmaker]

My point in bringing up her trouble loping was to point out she really shouldn't be critiquing anyone so harshly. Don't ya think.

My position is farther back then some of them at some points. Most of them are farther back than me at some points. Watch closely, I know the angles aren't the same. Not to mention they are showing finished horses. I was loping a very green 3 year old. Big difference. I'll get some video of me showing when I get a chance. Then you can all have a hay day. ;)

Lastly, you guys are acting like my feet are sticking straight forward or something. Notice my calf is right at or just behind the girth almost the whole time. If anyone is nitpicking that they have an agenda, IMO.

[BrittanyG]

I agree with EVERYTHING RM has said. I have been working with a reining trainer for 5 years and he does the same thing as reinmaker, and I try too (I am definitely not a trainer).

Also, he did not call anyone a name. He said she showed ignorance...that is not a name...

[Reinmaker]

Todd Bergen arguably one of the best all around horsemen in the country and without a doubt of the best reining and cowhorse trainers (only million dollar rider in both the NRHA and the NRCHA).

Watch closely. His leg position is almost identical to mine and he sits the horse very similarly, a roll to his hips, nice and square over the horse, upper body back with a slight slump in his shoulders. Now I am not saying I am Todd Bergen, he is one of the riders I admire greatly, but this does show what I am talking about.

His legs are longer than mine and his stirrup length is a little longer than I use (doesn't have as much bend in the knee, but if you look closely especially on his slow circles, his legs are forward with his inside leg being slightly more forward than his outside leg. His calves are basically running right down the girth just as mine are in my vid.

YouTube- Arc Matt O Lena & Todd Bergen

[Tiz]

"I'll get some video of me showing up when I get a chance. Then you can all have a hay day. ;)"

Keep in mind that the majority of people here will look forward to that, and not necessarily to make hay. Don't let a few people with issues run you off.

Todd Bergen...from Eagle Point,Oregon. Yay!

Why did he sit there flapping his legs for a few moments after the first spins? That didn't look like a really good go to me. Was it a winning effort?

[WashingtonBay]

Todd Bergen arguably one of the best all around horsemen in the country and without a doubt of the best reining and cowhorse trainers (only million dollar rider in both the NRHA and the NRCHA).

Watch closely.

That's a lot of work! For horse and rider :cowboy:

[vicklynn]

The videos dont compare. He rides with a better leg position, it is further back.

As far as you talking about PS and her loping. I cant say that is fair. She has no problem with other horses, just that one. Why she went to the clinic, for that horse and her. Seat position has nothing to do with her loping that horse or not. She knows her seat.
If Chris Cox, who is a very hard man to please, was very happy with her seat, complemented her on her riding, her horse, ect, Im good with it. Im also proud of her for going to that clinic. Takes some gumption to do something that causes you issues.

Oh, she does say shes wrong, to me any way.

[shewasmyshadow]

:popcorn:

I know NOTHING of reining except about > < much and it was only about a reining stop. I taught my training project that one thing and it worked wonders. After learning the reining stop I can see how you'd need to sit like that because when you're stopping you really need to get your legs OFF the horse. Makes sense to me.

[Reinmaker]

"I'll get some video of me showing up when I get a chance. Then you can all have a hay day. ;)"

Keep in mind that the majority of people here will look forward to that, and not necessarily to make hay. Don't let a few people with issues run you off.

Todd Bergen...from Eagle Point,Oregon. Yay!

Why did he sit there flapping his legs for a few moments after the first spins? That didn't look like a really good go to me. Was it a winning effort?

He is getting him to put his head down and frame up in the bridle. Bump with your legs or push with your spur and lift your hand and a good finished reiner should break at the poll and lower his head.

No he didn't win that year.

[Reinmaker]

That's a lot of work! For horse and rider :cowboy:

He didn't earn all that on one horse WB. That was a lot of different horses. Just wanted to clarify that.

[WashingtonBay]

HaHa.... yeah! :cheers:

[TLC97]

He is getting him to put his head down and frame up in the bridle. Bump with your legs or push with your spur and lift your hand and a good finished reiner should break at the poll and lower his head.

No he didn't win that year.

OH MY, something Tiz was NOT an expert on.

RM- Please reread ALL your explanations. You did honestly backtrack a bit.

ALSO---- Check out the back cinches----none are like yours.

[Reinmaker]

TLC I stated from the very beginning I should have had it tighter and normally do. I also conceded that was a fair critique and I should have tightened it, what the hell else do you want me to say? Just shows me you aren't really paying attention to what I have said and have an agenda.

[WashingtonBay]

I cant say that is fair.

Nothing on this thread is fair.

As my Vietnamese translator at an old job used to say, and then laugh out loud... "You want fair go to Puyallup in September". Never did find out why she thought that was so hilarious, it might have been in the translation somewhere... I can share it with you, Vicklynn, because you're local enough to get it.


And the point is a true one. There is nothing fair about nitpicking RM, repeatedly, onto how many pages now, about his leg position riding that horse. Or his *gasp* loose back cinch. And that's what you ladies are doing. So if he's fair game, then so are all of you. Your criticisms have all be asked and answered, rather openly and gentlemanly IMHO, given the tone of the comments.

IMHO, life's not a Western Equitation class and many an equitation rider couldn't sit a horse that isn't pushing peanuts. There's equitation, and then there's riding... and he's a fine rider by my measure.

No fru fru intended :)

[Tiz]

"Tiz------- BUT YOUR MONEY WHERE YOUR MOUTH IS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Never seen a pict. of you riding, yet to claim to have all this experience. Most of you what state I have read in the QH Journal."

I don't "claim" anything. and I also don't pretend that everything I know is my own original discovery. Why you find that annoying is interesting.

WB, is there a County fair in Puyallup, in September?

[Peggy Sue]

YouTube- NRHA Futurity 2007 - Todd Bergen

Nowhere in the video YOU posted or this one is his leg STAYING forward like yours does ...

My point is I don't want anybody to think that is right or common to have a chair seat.

You can mouth me all you want .. I have ridden reiners hte only things I haven't done are any cow events the most I have done there is tracked cattle ONCE.

My issues were with Sasssy no other horse pick all you want I know my issues and list them anytime I post a video of myself which is rarely because when posted opens to this . I am hard enough on myself without others input.

The only thing Chris Cox had to say to me was to STOP leaning forward which I knew going in a I did and knew it was part of Sassy's problem.

[WashingtonBay]

Back cinches are one more reason I like English. I've never seen a back cinch that actually stayed tight a mile into a trail ride. Friends all use 'em.... and the horses, they all puff up and then let it out... Back cinch is loose and useless the whole ride. Never seen a horse actually get a foot in one, but it sure seems possible.

But then.... even the horn on that contraption of yours looks dangerous to me :p

[Peggy Sue]

BTW Vicky I love you too hon

[WashingtonBay]

WB, is there a County fair in Puyallup, in September?

Yup. Our state fair is there :)

[Reinmaker]

They aren't meant to be tight WB, not on a western saddle. Tighter than I have it here but not snug up against the horse. You want a few inches of clearance. I too have never seen a horse get hung in one ever but I guess it can happen.

[Peggy Sue]

WB a back cinch isn't suppose to be "tight" but snug... think few fingers in it.

[Tiz]

Don't ropers have the back cinch up against the belly?

[WashingtonBay]

They aren't meant to be tight WB, not on a western saddle. Tighter than I have it here but not snug up against the horse. You want a few inches of clearance. I too have never seen a horse get hung in one ever but I guess it can happen.

Yeah - I know not 'cinch tight'. I was just teasing. I've actually ridden and shown Western a little, so I'm not that obtuse and naive, I just play it on the forum on friday nights. :)

[vicklynn]

WB, I got the translation and I laughed too. Guess it dosnt take much to make me laugh hu? LOL

WB, weather riding western, english, show, or just because, position, on this forum, and another forum weve been on(choke on saying the name of the forum), have been nit picked to death. Why I said I dont understand why his position is over looked.
Its not about peanut rollers, ick, its about people saying, your position is off, your legs are here, your hands are there, your seat is, ect ect ect. If its good for one, then it should be good for all.
JMHO(slack rider that I am)

I think we should be able to be honest about what we see. Im no trainer, far from it, but I see and learn what others are talking about, and oh boy have I learned alot. Even how I should be riding properly.
I hate properly...its so hard.

[Peggy Sue]

Tiz even ropers don't have them "tight" just snug.. WIsh I could have videoed Matt teaching T about it and the whys and hows .. he did a good job explaining it all

[vicklynn]

BTW Vicky I love you too hon
Aw gesh, did ya have to put that out there for all them folks to see...LOL

[vicklynn]

Yeah - I know not 'cinch tight'. I was just teasing. I've actually ridden and shown Western a little, so I'm not that obtuse and naive, I just play it on the forum on friday nights. :)
Hey, no name calling:hysterical:

[Tiz]

You mean like, up against the belly, Peggy?

[Peggy Sue]

Yes ... but still room to get your hand under it flat when first put on .. then walk horse around and retighten ..

I have actually seen a horse get hung up in them...it is NOT a pretty thing to see happen at all.

[Peggy Sue]

it is hard to explain.. you dont' pull it tight like your front cinch but snug enough to do it's job which is to hold the back of the saddle down when roping or going down hill

[Reinmaker]

[QUOTE=Peggy Sue;295880]
Nowhere in the video YOU posted or this one is his leg STAYING forward like yours does ...

QUOTE]

Every time he is loping slow they are. You just don't want to see it. You wouldn't admit it if you did.

I'll make sure I'll tell my boss that he has screwed up by not stopping me and my horrible riding every day. I also go tell the trainers I used to work for how I learned on the interwebs they were all wrong.

Thanks for the public service, people are welcome to take your advice or mine.

[WashingtonBay]

Why I said I dont understand why his position is over looked.

I don't think it has... But I don't think there's any meat left on his legs, or on that back cinch :D

[vicklynn]

I know Im not Peggy, but, here is a pic.

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a155/vicklynn/100_0521.jpg

[Peggy Sue]

Hey I might have a pic let me check

[Reinmaker]

You mean like, up against the belly, Peggy?

Not on a cowhorse. I don't know a single cowhorse guy or cutter who has the back cinch touching the horses belly underneath. Maybe a roper does it that way but not cowhorse and cutters. Granted I haven't worked for any cutting trainers and haven't been to a cutting in a long time so maybe more of them do it than I am aware of.

[Peggy Sue]

hmm the only one I can find of Moosa it looks too tight but it really wasn't once he got on and Moosa let his air out LOL

[TLC97]

WB- the first 3 pages of this were how great he was. All we were saying is look objectively- here is another opinion.

I was told by a veteran roper, also a vet still competing in his 70's that more than two fingers of day light will get you (ANY rider) into a wreck, plain and simple. At the Molly Powell clinic I went to last year her mom gave us all a good demonstration and explaination on checking your equipment every time you ride, no excuses.

[Reinmaker]

WB- the first 3 pages of this were how great he was. All we were saying is look objectively- here is another opinion.

.

would you like to post a video yourself or would you just like me to critique your photos?

[WashingtonBay]

Only time I've seen where a back cinch would have even been useful was on a pregnant mare who was too round to wear it. She leaned forward to snatch some grass, and I swear, the saddle flipped up and sent her rider right over the little piggy's head. :D

[Peggy Sue]

I have seen swimming horses get caught and a bucking(well kicking out) horse get hung up.. it can and does happen and is not pretty when it happens the swimming horse would have drowned if Rock hadn't pulled it out and the acting out horse broke it's leg

[Tiz]

Geez, don't find a picture. I was just kidding you, because you ignored what I said to begin with, Peggy.

Ropers, I'm pretty sure, RM. So their saddle doesn't lift up when the calf hits the end of the rope. Probably helps protect the horse's withers from getting beat up too.

[TLC97]

Rein I posted picts of myself. I can sit right there and tell you EVERYTHING wrong with them. The most recent ones I posted are not like I normally ride because I still have a broken left seatbone.

I am not a trainer. That is why you are getting the feedback you are as you are a trainer.

I am a back yard rider who likes to get to a barrel show when I can or go team penning or ranch sorting when I can get away.

That is the difference. Plain-simple (peggysue told me not to use big words I can't understand and she can't spell)

[Reinmaker]

Don't worry TLC I have no desire nor need to critique your pics. Thanks for giving me the background on your experience though. ;)

Tiz that makes sense about the ropers.

[TLC97]

Rein- I said NOTHING about my experience. So ;) right back at you!!!!

I have ridden COAST TO COAST literally with some TOP people in the rodeo world and had both critism and compliments from them. I care what they think. No rider is ever perfect, there is always room to improve and learn.

Like you care what those you compete against think- again Plain and Simple.

[cloedoll]

I read all twelve pages, wow, I would like to stay out of this argument lol.

I did come on here to reply to the original post, though - RM, I think you are a great rider and trainer...the horse looks like hes doing great! :)

[Dakota Sunrise]

"And...

Reinmaker, has Dakota asked you for any tips on getting her mare to rate? I'd love to hear any tips you can share.


Nope, I haven't asked Reinmaker for tips, but that's only because I don't usually ask just one person when I need advice. Most of the time I just make a thread about it so anyone who wants to reply can put in their two cents.
So that's why I never asked him. Not for any other reason. From what I've heard and seen he looks/sounds like a great trainer and his riding is a million times better than mine every will be, so I'd be perfectly willing to take advice from him.:) Of course lots of people here have more experience than I do and are much better riders/trainers, which is why I'm always seeking help with the various issues I have with Beauty!:D

[Dakota Sunrise]

Ok, I don't want involved in the argument, but I do have a question:

I ride western (just trail riding and schooling my mare in my homemade arena, I don't show or anything like that) but I've never used a back cinch on either of my horses. Why do you need one? Honest question here. Just wondering.:)

[zoel_222]

:popcorn:

[lacyloo]

Ditto to what Cloe and Dakota said...

I'm by no means a trainer or hell even able to ride right now but I didn't even notice his leg position until people started whining about it. Still don't see anything wrong?

Typical RM thread or post.. Bunch of this :trout: this :whack: this :banghead: this :catfight: this :headscratch: this :soapbox: some of this :deadhorse: and the end result is :confused:

Seems like people are out to try and break RM down until he totally blows up and gets banned.

[vicklynn]

Seems like people are out to try and break RM down until he totally blows up and gets banned.

Nope, was never even a thought.

[Reinmaker]

Seems like people are out to try and break RM down until he totally blows up and gets banned.

Thanks lacy. I don't think they are trying to get me banned but many of them do have an agenda for one reason or another. ;) I could win the NRHA futurity and post it and they would say I sucked. It doesn't bother me. Really it doesn't. I do appreciate the kind words from those who have offered them though.

I'll tell ya what I really like are compliments from my peers and those I coach. I had a client who has ridden with some of the top names in the sport, including NRHA futurity winners, she even had a very recognizable name working out of her place for a while, tell me recently that she has learned more from me and from the guy I work with in a few short months than she learned from all the other trainers combined. That is really all the reassurance I need that I am doing something right.

[Reinmaker]

Ok, I don't want involved in the argument, but I do have a question:

I ride western (just trail riding and schooling my mare in my homemade arena, I don't show or anything like that) but I've never used a back cinch on either of my horses. Why do you need one? Honest question here. Just wondering.:)

For what you do, you don't need one. Most reiners don't use them at all. It is a cowhorse, cutting and roping thing. It just helps keep the saddle from flipping up and over when a cutting horse or cow horse makes a really big move on a cow. Kind of lake a safety catch to keep the saddle in place on the horses back. Tiz explained the roping thing earlier.

[zoel_222]

Thanks lacy. I don't think they are trying to get me banned but many of them do have an agenda for one reason or another. ;) I could win the NRHA futurity and post it and they would say I sucked. It doesn't bother me. Really it doesn't. I do appreciate the kind words from those who have offered them though.


As my mother likes to say.... they're just jealous ;):D

[vicklynn]

As my mother likes to say.... they're just jealous ;):D
Nope, not that either.

Dakota
I use my back cinch just because I like it there, and no other reason. I just like a full set up. Kind of like alot of people dont use breast collars, but you and I like them, so we put them on.

[Kara]

Ok, I don't want involved in the argument, but I do have a question:

I ride western (just trail riding and schooling my mare in my homemade arena, I don't show or anything like that) but I've never used a back cinch on either of my horses. Why do you need one? Honest question here. Just wondering.:)

In barrel racing you want a back cinch. Your horse moves and get into the dirt. When the start rating hard the saddle( like wb said) will move up and could cause harm and unseat you.

I ride to where I can barely get a flat hand through. Ropers do about the same thing

but rm I was stating, if that horse bolted for some crazy horse reason you would unseated, unless you got a hand on the saddle. Lol you ride like a roper though, nothing wrong with it. But my buckskin was a reining horse and if you rode him like that he would slam on the brakes a lot. Maybe that was the way he was trained but you put your legs out you feel his butt drop haha.

[Reinmaker]

So do our finished horses Kara. My legs were on him the whole time. That is what I don't get from the comments. I was constantly keeping him going by waving my legs at him, squeezing with my calves or even laying my spur on him. If you watch closely you can see it. My legs aren't THAT far forward. He is small so it may appear so at times but I am constantly "riding"(letting my hips move with him) and keeping him moving with my legs at or behind the girth. Trust me that horse would break gait if I didn't. The finished horses would plant it.

I hadn't thought about barrel racers and back cinches, but yeah now that you pointed it out I can definitely see the need there, especially with lighter saddles. I would think they might tip forward easier than some of our heavier cowhorse type saddles.

Oh yeah, and I have had horses bolt, and haven't ever fallen off from it.

[AppyLover]

RM, I will say even though we have butted heads a few times, I see nothing wrong with your riding, in fact the horse is easy moving, and relaxed. Your leg is about at the cinch line and your rhythm is nice and smooth with the horse and not against him.

Sorry guys I don't agree with attacking RM the way he has in this thread. I don't think anyone has a leg to stand on unless they do and ride the way he does. He has already admitted the oops with the back cinch but how does that saying go..."to error is human..." And the attempts to brow beat him into whatever the goal is here, is obviously not going to happen, so why not just part ways with the idea to just agree to disagree?

[Kara]

So do our finished horses Kara. My legs were on him the whole time. That is what I don't get from the comments. I was constantly keeping him going by waving my legs at him, squeezing with my calves or even laying my spur on him. If you watch closely you can see it. My legs aren't THAT far forward. He is small so it may appear so at times but I am constantly "riding"(letting my hips move with him) and keeping him moving with my legs at or behind the girth. Trust me that horse would break gait if I didn't. The finished horses would plant it.

I hadn't thought about barrel racers and back cinches, but yeah now that you pointed it out I can definitely see the need there, especially with lighter saddles. I would think they might tip forward easier than some of our heavier cowhorse type saddles.

Oh yeah, and I have had horses bolt, and haven't ever fallen off from it.



your right it's a five year so would be small and not filled out. We might not have gotten along and I don't think anyone has said anything about this but I do like the way you use your hands. I hate seeing trainers with hard hands.

I'm not here to argue so good job on the hands and using your legs instead of going right for the reins.

[Reinmaker]

He's actually 3 and he is a little 3. ;)

[Kara]

He's actually 3 and he is a little 3. ;)




Ohhh ok so I was right the first time. Lolz

[Reinmaker]

You prob. got confused by my original post cause I was talking about a 5 year old originally that went home to his owner, and then talked about the vid which is a 3 year old.

[Kara]

Yeah. I saw three year old or swore I did. Went back to first page and saw 5 year old. I was like ruh roh haha

[shewasmyshadow]

I think his legs look funny because they're LONG legs and they have to go somewhere.

Dakota- You'll see LOTS of trainers using back cinches because they need to train the horse to deal with all the "stuff" someone might potentially put on that horse. So if they start off with everything, then the horse will be used to everything. ;)

I do have another question for Reinmaker and it's about bucking again, so sorry. But, would a back cinch potentially help you stay in the saddle if a horse bucked? Or would it make things worse? Assuming the horse was used to a back cinch.

[Reinmaker]

Good point about the back cinch. We use them on all the horses whether they are destined for cowhorse work or not and for that very reason. We snug 'em up on all of them so they can really feel them and get used to them in the beginning.

As for the bucking I don't think it would help or hurt really (on a horse that was used to it). It will almost always make a horse buck if they aren't used to it. I guess one could argue that it could help keep the saddle from pitching up and forward on a hard bucker and thus making it easier to keep your seat. Haven't really ever thought about that.

[mare]

I use a back cinch only when roping grown cattle. But, my saddle has a 3/4 rigging. If I rode a 7/8 or a full, I would use a back cinch for all work because it puts the rider further back on the horse and the point of balance is farther in front of the rider.

When roping grown stock, I have the back cinch pretty snug to help distribute the pressure along the bars of the saddle and along the horse's back.

[farmers_wife]

:popcorn:
I think this is sad. RM goes from I love my job to having to defend himself. Everyone rides different. I for one am not the perfect rider and do not judge anyones riding ability. That is all I have to say.