A Question About Some Socialist Countries

[JackieB]

I have a question that perhaps some would like to help me figure out. It appears to me that citizens of some of the countries that we consider to be socialist in terms of their economic policies enjoy a quality of life that is at least as high as ours in the USA. As examples, I would include Canada, the UK, Germany, Scandinavian countries definitely, the Netherlands, France, and I guess most of Western Europe.

Residents in these countries vacation as much as we do, own horses, own homes and automobiles, vacation even more than we do on average, and so on. How can this be if they are being taxed so heavily by their governments?

Just curious. I'm not making a plug for socialism, but I keep thinking that these people should be dirt poor like most citizens were behind the Iron Curtain when the Soviet Union existed.

[WashingtonBay]

Hopefully someone with personal experience will chime in.

I guess I would ask, is it true that those from those countries who can afford it, come HERE for major medical they can't get or don't want to wait for there?

[HoustonFarrier]

Well, I have lived in Germany (West Germany back then)....have visited France, Spain, Greece, Austria, Switerland. I don't know that they vacation anymore or less then we do? The houses they live in tend to be MUCH older...there's not a whole lot of NEW construction as far as houses in Europe. Lots of apartments though. As for owning horses.....not NEARLY like we do here in the states. It really IS a luxurey in Europe to own a horse. If you have been following European political trends, you will see France and Germany in particular, are beginnign to migrate towards LESS taxes and less intrusive governments. There is allot of social backlash to the high taxation going on.

Steve

[rocknK]

JB, if stuff is so great in those countries how come they all want to move here?????

[rums_mom]

I don't see many people from those countries taking "medical vacations" to come here, other than Canadians. And considering there infant mortality rates are much better than ours the only reason to come here to have a baby is to have it be a citizen. Part of it is there lifestyles are much healthier and they put much more emphasis on holistic preventative care than we do.

[HoustonFarrier]

Part of it is there lifestyles are much healthier and they put much more emphasis on holistic preventative care than we do.

That was not my experience having lived in Europe for 6 1/2 years. Lived in Canada for about a year. Their "lifestyles" were no more healthier than mine was. As for holisitc care...that I can believe, because it's difficult to get medical care. I once had to go to an MD in Rotterdam. I was having a SEVERE allergy reaction, probably to mold. MD told me to leave and go back to Germany.

Steve

[rums_mom]

That was not my experience having lived in Europe for 6 1/2 years. Lived in Canada for about a year. Their "lifestyles" were no more healthier than mine was. As for holisitc care...that I can believe, because it's difficult to get medical care. I once had to go to an MD in Rotterdam. I was having a SEVERE allergy reaction, probably to mold. MD told me to leave and go back to Germany.

Steve


Were you in the military at the time? I will take your word since you lived it. I have done some of my own private research out of curiosity mostly involving obstetrics, midwifery and childbirth. Haven't done any about allergies.

[WashingtonBay]

I don't see many people from those countries taking "medical vacations" to come here, other than Canadians.

"Other than Canadians"? How can you discount them in the trend? The reason there would be more would be proximity and ease of getting here. That is a significant hurdle for someone in Europe, a little easier for someone in Vancouver BC.

[JackieB]

JB, if stuff is so great in those countries how come they all want to move here?????

They don't. Not in the countries that I listed anyway. I don't think we see a particularly significant number of Western Europeans and Canadians yearning to leave their countries to live in the U.S. Probably not any more than U.S. citizens who want to move to those countries.

[HoustonFarrier]

Were you in the military at the time?
Yes.

I will take your word since you lived it
What exactly does that statement mean?

Steve

[rums_mom]

Means since you BTDT, and I haven't you would know first hand. As opposed to information that someone told you about that I wouldn't necessarily know was true but heresay. That is what it means, what did you think it meant?

I was referring to the research I have done, specifically for the issues that I was interested at the time.

[oursarge]

I should stay out of this since I don't know much about anything in other countries [or here!]. I do know my cousin's husband spends alot of time in The Netherlands because of his job. He loves the country but says it's not perfect as no country is. According to what he has told her and she has told me the people there pay 40% of their wages in taxes and alot of people do not own homes. They can not afford homes.

She traveled there with him once and got an ear infection. The Drs told her to take Advil and sent her on her way. They would not give her anti biotics. She suffered with that ear for months because the infection got so bad, she went to the Dr a few times over there begging for antibiotics and they turned her away. Her mother was not allowed to mail the medication to her. I remember the e-mails back and forth, I know the pain was terrible for her and felt helpless since they wouldn't do anything for her but give her Advil. What made things worse was because it was as bad as it was she couldn't fly so she was stuck there in a strange country with nothing more than a pain killer that would not work for her. Finally she was able to get home. The Drs here tried to put a tube in it but by then she was so swollen the pain was unreal. She finally got better but it took a long long time with surgery involved. I know antibiotics should not be used in many cases but in hers if she had the medication she might not have gone through what she did with her ear and the pain. He still travels there but she will never go again because she's afraid of getting sick again and not getting helped.

That's all I know. I never talked to people from The Netherlands I just know what he said as far as taxes and I know her experience with the Drs.

[JackieB]

Hang on. I guess I really don't mind this thread being derailed into one about socialized medicine. We all know that when luv2show was injured that she was told that she would have to wait a month to get into the hospital, so she and sugarsgirl set her broken arm with a sling made of a feed sack and tied it off with baling twine while ChiseKoji scoured the rest of the country for a spare aspirin.

But I was really just asking about how people who are taxed beyond anything we have ever experienced here in the US appear to me to have a comparable quality of life. HF provided some input that I appreciated. I have seen older, smaller homes in Europe. And a lot of people live in what we would call townhouses. But I've traveled a lot to Canada and it looks to me about like the U.S. What's Australia and New Zealand like? Do they also have real high tax rates?

[Tiz]

I was skimming through the threads, and saw someone say "Oh, you'll never have to worry about the government taking away your guns. That will never happen." But on this forum, and on one other I visit, I keep hearing about how socialism is alright, really, nothing to worry about. That is how it starts, don't you think? A growing acceptance of the unacceptable? Complacency, a lack of curiosity, an indoctrination education system, coupled with a corrupt media and a charismatic left wing Presidential candidate, and some Americans are beginning to see the virtue of socialism. Obama keeps talking about changing America. Listen to him. Me, I don't want to change the most successful, and generous country the world has ever seen.

[JackieB]

"Oh, you'll never have to worry about the government taking away your guns. That will never happen."

That's just not going to happen. I may find some of the worries by conservatives to be plausible, but not this one. The right to own guns is too important to most Americans, even liberal ones.

Even if there was a law banning gun ownership somewhere, even many regular law-abiding citizens wouldn't honor it. Perhaps the gun owners where you live are different than they are where I live Tiz, but I can tell you that many of the ones I know are the "From my cold, dead, clammy hands" type. No way, no how would they do it.

[Tiz]

I was illustrating how people can begin to accept things, over time, that they would be appalled by at the outset.

It is interesting that guns are flying off the shelves, sales are huge, the closer the election gets.

[WashingtonBay]

Jackie, I'm really glad gun control is not an issue you support, but don't pretend gun control would not be tried if not met by that very strong opposition. Look where rights have been all but lost in NYC, California, and DC, for awhile.

The opposition you speak of is why gun control (at least in most parts of the country) is non-starter, and why we can never give them any slack or they'll take it. Don't give it a complacent environment for which to grow, don't try to tell us not to keep standing watch :)

[JackieB]

Don't give it a complacent environment for which to grow, don't try to tell us not to keep standing watch :)

I can appreciate your position. I just think that the anti-gun ownership types are such a teeny, tiny group overall that they just never could get enough support to get anywhere. And the recent Supreme Court ruling just set a precedent that isn't likely to be overturned - ever.

But I understand. I can never fault diligence. It's just that this issue is one that I can say without any doubt that I'm sure won't change.

[luv2show]

Hang on. I guess I really don't mind this thread being derailed into one about socialized medicine. We all know that when luv2show was injured that she was told that she would have to wait a month to get into the hospital, so she and sugarsgirl set her broken arm with a sling made of a feed sack and tied it off with baling twine while ChiseKoji scoured the rest of the country for a spare aspirin.

But I was really just asking about how people who are taxed beyond anything we have ever experienced here in the US appear to me to have a comparable quality of life. HF provided some input that I appreciated. I have seen older, smaller homes in Europe. And a lot of people live in what we would call townhouses. But I've traveled a lot to Canada and it looks to me about like the U.S. What's Australia and New Zealand like? Do they also have real high tax rates?

AHAHAHAHAAA, JackieB you made me laugh soooo hard!!! LOL :D:D

[JackieB]

AHAHAHAHAAA, JackieB you made me laugh soooo hard!!! LOL :D:D

You found it. I was just digging it up to post.

It really does kind of crack me up. You'd think the healthcare system in Canada is about like some of those poor countries in Africa that have no healthcare at all. And what we are considering adding doesn't interfere with the current healthcare system at all. It's a new program to help those who currently have no healthcare, which is nearly 50 million Americans.

[Sundays Man]

Hang on. I guess I really don't mind this thread being derailed into one about socialized medicine. We all know that when luv2show was injured that she was told that she would have to wait a month to get into the hospital, so she and sugarsgirl set her broken arm with a sling made of a feed sack and tied it off with baling twine while ChiseKoji scoured the rest of the country for a spare aspirin.

But I was really just asking about how people who are taxed beyond anything we have ever experienced here in the US appear to me to have a comparable quality of life. HF provided some input that I appreciated. I have seen older, smaller homes in Europe. And a lot of people live in what we would call townhouses. But I've traveled a lot to Canada and it looks to me about like the U.S. What's Australia and New Zealand like? Do they also have real high tax rates?
JackieB, this is not from experience or research, but from what I see here, quality of life and opportunity for advancement are two things. Most Europeans are resigned to the fact that they will be where they are economically for their entire life and they plan for it. Many Americans do that, but not all. As has been mentioned, many in Europe live in apartments with little or no opportunity to buy homes. Why build homes when no one can afford them? That has historically been a booming business in our country. We could all live in old homes or apartments and be happy knowing we will never have the opportunity to do better. Fewer jobs, (less demand for homes, new cars, luxuries, etc). Everyone is really happy....on the outside. But those who have ambition and desire to excel have no way of doing that. The tax pool is all that grows and there is little opportunity for small business to get any larger than it is, many live on govt. subsidies, etc. etc. It just depends on what we are willing to settle for. I have tried in my life to advance financially and have failed, but at least I had the opportunity to do so without sacrificing my entire financial future. Some are so ambitious and determined that they do hit the ranks of the wealthy. Most of those will tell you that they did it in SPITE of the govt instead of the help of the govt. Why do we have good doctors and lawyers and engineers and physicists? Because it's profitable and rewarding. Take away the profitability and most of the "good" ones will go elsewhere to make their living. Probably to live in an affordable appartment and not worry about all the headaches. JMHO.

[JackieB]

JackieB, this is not from experience or research, but from what I see here...

Thanks for the thoughtful response, Sundays Man. While it's not easy to become a successful professional or business owner anywhere, there probably is more opportunity to do so in the US than anywhere else in the world. Certainly, immigrants are willing to risk even their lives for such an opportunity. I wouldn't want to see the US change in a way that would diminish that bright light.

[GrungeEquestrian]

That's just not going to happen. I may find some of the worries by conservatives to be plausible, but not this one. The right to own guns is too important to most Americans, even liberal ones.

Alcohol was also important to many Americans but it was still banned and made an Amendment at one time.

[Tiz]

Gosh, Jackie, how many threads have you started to tell us the good news about socialism? What in the heck is happening in Minnesota these days? You darn near elected Al Franken, too, for crying out loud.

[JackieB]

Gosh, Jackie, how many threads have you started to tell us the good news about socialism?

None. I was honestly just asking these questions. Not trying to plug socialism or socialist policies.

Minnesota? I live in Michigan.

[Tiz]

Oh, sorry about that. I had Minnesota on my mind.
Didn't you say you would like to see a Swedish or European style of government here? I've taken your comments on socialism as positive, and I would call them "a plug", but if I've misunderstood you, I apologize.

[JackieB]

Oh, sorry about that. I had Minnesota on my mind.
Didn't you say you would like to see a Swedish or European style of government here? I've taken your comments on socialism as positive, and I would call them "a plug", but if I've misunderstood you, I apologize.

Perhaps I did say something along those lines, so you're probably not thinking incorrectly. I am in favor of some programs that I think it's fair to say that you, RocknK, HF, WB, and others consider to be unnecessary or wasteful.

But these couple of threads I posted were really just me trying to see if I could enhance my understanding. I'm pretty liberal on at least some social programs though, so that could understandably come across as "a plug". I guess I shouldn't have objected to your post. Sorry.

I do feel that every person who can should work, though. And that we need to be tough about holding people accountable if they are able to work. It's not the money for me as much as it is the fact that the lack of motivation and sense of self-sufficiency destroys a person, in my opinion.

[Tiz]

"It's not the money for me as much as it is the fact that the lack of motivation and sense of self-sufficiency destroys a person, in my opinion."

This is why socialism is a proven failure. I'll add to your statement. A government that taxes an achiever to the point it doesn't make any sense to work hard anymore is equally as destructive.

[JackieB]

[quote=Tiz;33002This is why socialism is a proven failure. I'll add to your statement. A government that taxes an achiever to the point it doesn't make any sense to work hard anymore is equally as destructive.[/quote]

I agree. I just have a hard time understanding how this applies to some of the countries that tend to be held up as "socialist".

I think of failed, or fundamentally flawed, socialist countries as places like Venezuela and all of the countries in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Bloc. But when I look at Western Europe, I see countries with private companies that provide us with products such as BMW autos, Saab aircraft, Rolex watches, and Swarovski binoculars. These products are amongst the highest quality in the world and there are thousands of smaller companies that make high quality products as well. So obviously, the desire to work hard to be the best in the world isn't diminished in these countries.

[Ranger44]

I travelled through Europe for a short two weeks this past summer. Some things I noticed were: socialized medicine, very few neighborhoods of modern houses (lots of old buildings, apartment style), very close spaces(many states are as big or bigger than european countries), vehicles (thousands of small motorcycles, and smart cars or small cars everywhere, I think I saw one pickup in two weeks), great public transit systems.

I didn't see anything like where I live or like many of you do where you can go a short distance from your front door and be in the wide open spaces. Every state I have traveled through I have seen great rural areas. I know that exists in Europe but I saw very little of it that was open to any sort of public use. I think in general we "use" a lot more resources just going about our regular daily routines and think little of it compared to the Europeans. I experienced the "no need to bathe every day" lifestyle (especially on public transit) and can say I really appreciated getting home to people that bathe more frequently.

There is more but I'm struggling to put it into print, :)