OK. Now that it's been decided, I have a question

[sofi98]

Just a simple question, but nonetheless important to me, as I've already invested a significant amount of my life (and $$) into my chosen career to become moderately successful.

Given that, for me, additional effort = more success = more $$ = rich (??) = higher tax bracket = less return on my investment, perhaps the incentive to further personal advancement is not so great anymore.

Don't get me wrong, pride in a job well done and being self-sufficient is great, but in the end, my goal is not only to be able to provide for my family, but also to enjoy the benefits of my efforts. I'm just selfish, I guess ;)


So, here's my question: For tax purposes under the in-coming administration's plan, what is to be the new definition of rich?

[TLC97]

Anything over $225,000 a year BEFORE any write offs.................................

[HoustonFarrier]

If you paid close attention to the race, it started out 2 years ago at $300,000....then dropped to $250,000.....then (Obama 1 week ago, on a stump speech) $200,000.......then Biden said $150,000.....the Gov Richardson said $130,000. My *guess* is, it'll be defined at about 80K in the end. That's the only way they can get enough tax $$$$ to fund the other entitlement programs they want.

We'll just have to see.

Steve

[sofi98]

If you paid close attention to the race, it started out 2 years ago at $300,000....then dropped to $250,000.....then (Obama 1 week ago, on a stump speech) $200,000.......then Biden said $150,000.....the Gov Richardson said $130,000. My *guess* is, it'll be defined at about 80K in the end. That's the only way they can get enough tax $$$$ to fund the other entitlement programs they want.

We'll just have to see.

Steve


Exactly.

ETA: actually my original post was perhaps too subtle. What I was hinting at was this: when do the fruits of your efforts become a liability and therefore a disincentive to further onself.

[Tatesgram]

Exactly.

ETA: actually my original post was perhaps too subtle. What I was hinting at was this: when do the fruits of your efforts become a liability and therefore a disincentive to further onself.


I think we're all interested in the answer. I'll wait for the smarter than me, WB, HF, to post.

[JackieB]

ETA: actually my original post was perhaps too subtle. What I was hinting at was this: when do the fruits of your efforts become a liability and therefore a disincentive to further onself.

I think we'd have to get much higher taxes than even the most "socialist" politican in the US might consider before we got to that point. We've had taxes before as high as what we are considering returning to and there were plenty of people in the country building businesses, becoming millionaires, and so on. They understandably complained about the high taxes of course, but the 50% or so of the money they earned that they did receive (at the highest tax brackets, and adding in state and local taxes) was enough of an incentive to continue to try to succeed.

Where it really has shown to completely shut things down is in the UK, Scandinavian countries, and I suppose many other countries where the tax rate approaches, or even exceeds 100%. So for super-wealthy individuals such as British rock stars and so on, the next dollar earned might mean that they owe more than $1 in taxes. This caused them to leave the country entirely and move to somewhere with lower taxes.

I don't know if that system still exists in those countries, but it did in the 1970's and 80's.

I'm not trying to justify high taxes, just pointing out how it has worked elsewhere. Also keep in mind that taxes go through Congress and every one of those representatives has to face re-election. Republicans have earned office many times on a lower-tax platform. It will absolutely happen again if enough voters feel that the tax burden is too high.

[FrogInABlender]

If you paid close attention to the race, it started out 2 years ago at $300,000....then dropped to $250,000.....then (Obama 1 week ago, on a stump speech) $200,000.......then Biden said $150,000.....the Gov Richardson said $130,000. My *guess* is, it'll be defined at about 80K in the end. That's the only way they can get enough tax $$$$ to fund the other entitlement programs they want...

This is the part that burns MY shorts! We've GOT to get away from this "I'm entitled" mentality that so many in this country have slid into. Able bodied people shouldn't be ALLOWED to just sit around and do nothing and live on the government's dime. They ought to have to DO SOMETHING to EARN that money. And they ought to be subjected to random drug tests to GET that money, just like I am at my job. If I test positive for drugs, my butt is gone. The same ought to apply to them. They do drugs, they get no check. Just my two cents.

I'm already feeling like this poor little guy...
http://alicia-logic.com/email/You%20Know%20Your%20Ass%20is%20Too%20Small%20When. ..jpg
I don't know what I'll do if it gets any worse!

[Tatesgram]

:clap::clap::cheers::cheers: Good post.

[JackieB]

We've GOT to get away from this "I'm entitled" mentality that so many in this country have slid into.

I don't disagree with your position, Frog. But one thing that we all need to understand is that the biggest programs, by far, that fall into this category right now are Social Security and Medicare. Those two alone account for almost 35% of all federal expenditures. And they are the ones that are sure to grow enormously over the next several decades as Baby Boomers retire.

Go up to your average group of senior citizens and tell him/her that they need to get over their sense of entitlement and see how far you get.

Welfare fraud and paying welfare to people who don't deserve it and should be working is absolutely a problem. It bothers me more because it takes away the incentive to work and destroys a person from within more than it does because of the taxes I pay toward the programs. But if we eliminated 100% of those problems, we'd still be facing serious financial problems in the near future.

[Harleys Owner]

I believe Frog said "able bodied people"... I know plenty of people right now that could/should be paying their own way, but are sucking the government tit....they are the people I believe she is talking about.

[TheBadLands]

I agree with Harleys Owner..

But the reality is, and it was discussed among the victorians of this campaign (parents of children at work), and they seem to think they're monthly checks are going to double.

I will be audited and go to prison before I will increase support of lazy people who won't stop having babies.

[HaveFaith]

Quote JackieB

Welfare fraud and paying welfare to people who don't deserve it and should be working is absolutely a problem. It bothers me more because it takes away the incentive to work and destroys a person from within more than it does because of the taxes I pay toward the programs. But if we eliminated 100% of those problems, we'd still be facing serious financial problems in the near future.[/quote]

This is a biggie to me. I work in a rural medical clinic and people (mostly non-caucasian) and have Medicaid (Alabama Welfare). They pay $1 for what ever they need and most of the time WANT alot more and try every way they can to GET every TEST known to mankind! They have cellphones, acrylic nails (I've never had those), hairweaves or wigs (those either), expensive name brand clothes, and drive Cadillacs & Lincolns. Then there are people who are obviously dirt poor, really sick, and have NO insurance that really NEED some tests and can't afford it. They don't know how to work the system. Where's the justice in that? Somebody is not doing their JOB!

[WashingtonBay]

I don't disagree with your position, Frog. But one thing that we all need to understand is that the biggest programs, by far, that fall into this category right now are Social Security and Medicare.

Go up to your average group of senior citizens and tell him/her that they need to get over their sense of entitlement and see how far you get.


Been in a Social Security office lately? I went with my dad and he said "how come I'm the only one here with gray hair?"

Of course, I was already aware of that... nearly 50% of the clients I was serving at my job in Social Services were SSI recipients. And they were all a lot more "able" than John McCain.

[FrogInABlender]

...the biggest programs, by far, that fall into this category right now are Social Security and Medicare. Those two alone account for almost 35% of all federal expenditures. And they are the ones that are sure to grow enormously over the next several decades as Baby Boomers retire.

Go up to your average group of senior citizens and tell him/her that they need to get over their sense of entitlement and see how far you get...

There's no way in heck that I'm saying that retirees don't deserve every penny they get...AND THEN SOME! They worked for and EARNED EVERY PENNY of that money when they were younger, and ABLE. And if some greedy-@$$ politician hadn't raided the Social Security fund and thrown it down a rat hole, or given it to some illegal alien who never contributed to it in the first place, then it would still be TOTALLY SELF SUPPORTING and I wouldn't be sitting here wondering what's going to happen when I RETIRE and there IS no Social Security and Medicare.

http://forum.horse.com/upfiles/smiley/soap%20box.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:void(opener.addSmiley('body1','http://forum.horse.com/upfiles/smiley/soap box.gif')); self.focus();)

Illegal Aliens sponging off the system is a WHOLE 'NOTHER sore spot with me. I don't EVEN want to think about that right now or the top of my head will blow clean off.

[John Boy]

http://alicia-logic.com/email/You%20Know%20Your%20Ass%20is%20Too%20Small%20When. ..jpg

That's one hung up political donkey :deadhorse:

[Tatesgram]

Is there WIC programs in other states? True story, a family (I know the sister) has two overweight children, they are put on WIC because they are overweight. They receive so much food, they sell the excess to buy beer and cigarettes. Eggs, milk, peanut butter, cereal...

Do you know how many people have sold their foodstamps to buy drugs? It goes on all the time. I know a person that has allowed other people to claim her children on their income tax for a couple hundred dollars, because she doesn't work or file income tax, but she receives food stamps.

My Dad was a bail bondsman. People all the time getting put in jail, when they get out they need a working co-signer. I can't tell you how many times he was told, "I don't work, I get disability".

:cloud:

[Sundays Man]

I don't disagree with your position, Frog. But one thing that we all need to understand is that the biggest programs, by far, that fall into this category right now are Social Security and Medicare. Those two alone account for almost 35% of all federal expenditures. And they are the ones that are sure to grow enormously over the next several decades as Baby Boomers retire.

Go up to your average group of senior citizens and tell him/her that they need to get over their sense of entitlement and see how far you get.

Welfare fraud and paying welfare to people who don't deserve it and should be working is absolutely a problem. It bothers me more because it takes away the incentive to work and destroys a person from within more than it does because of the taxes I pay toward the programs. But if we eliminated 100% of those problems, we'd still be facing serious financial problems in the near future.

Dadgumit!!! Here I go again!!!! JackieB, you seem to bring the best out of me. But please, pardon me; These old seniors that you refer too aren't asking for a HANDOUT. They paid their hard earned money into SS ALL THEIR WORKING LIFE. That isn't socialism. That's stupid on our part for thinking we could give our hard earned money to a greedy govt and expect them to act responsibly with it. Had the right things been done with these senior's money, they wouldn't have a worry. I agree with HoustonF. Privatize the system and the greedy politicians can't get their hands on it to ruin it for the common, hard working, core of this country people. These seniors gave their money to these govt. leeches in good faith, thinking they would have what they were promised when they retired. To take their hard earned money and give it to someone who has never participated or intend to do so, is a TOTAL slap in the face of these "senior". They worked hard, they fought for this country to preserve freedom, they invested in the future of this country because they were told it was the right thing to do; and NOW someone says they are looking for a handout. Don't EVEN get me started with this issue!

[Sundays Man]

I agree with Harleys Owner..

But the reality is, and it was discussed among the victorians of this campaign (parents of children at work), and they seem to think they're monthly checks are going to double.

I will be audited and go to prison before I will increase support of lazy people who won't stop having babies.
Why should they stop having babies!? Each one represents a pay raise!!!!

[TheBadLands]

Why should they stop having babies!? Each one represents a pay raise!!!!

lol this is true

But that's a pretty painful increase in production for a raise, in comparison

[JackieB]

These old seniors that you refer too aren't asking for a HANDOUT. They paid their hard earned money into SS ALL THEIR WORKING LIFE. That isn't socialism.

Let me do a bit of research and get back so that I can speak more intelligently on this issue. But I'm pretty confident that there is no way that Social Security and Medicare could be anywhere near being self-sufficient even if the federal government completely kept its hands off of those funds.

An annuity calculator will tell a person how much he/she has to save to generate the approximately $1,500 a month that I would guess Social Security and Medicare cost per senior for the 20 years or so on average that a retiree draws those benefits. It's a lot more than is paid in, even with interest earned.

I understand that seniors aren't asking for a handout. They worked and contributed just as I have been for the past 30 years. But the expenditures on these programs are far greater than their revenue.

But let me check some more. I don't wish to insult seniors at all. But when we talk about Social Security, it's often as if it's some kind of savings account where we are simply withdrawing what we have deposited and if it doesn't work, that's only because the idiots in Washington wasted our money. I don't think that reflects reality.

[JackieB]

...and NOW someone says they are looking for a handout.

I'm sure sorry if I seemed to be suggesting that seniors were looking for a handout. That was never my intention. I merely wanted to point out that these two social programs (Social Security and Medicare) pay out way beyond anything we contribute to them (if my understanding is correct). For them to be self-sufficient, the tax rates would have to be much higher.

[Tatesgram]

I'm sure sorry if I seemed to be suggesting that seniors were looking for a handout. That was never my intention. I merely wanted to point out that these two social programs (Social Security and Medicare) pay out way beyond anything we contribute to them (if my understanding is correct). For them to be self-sufficient, the tax rates would have to be much higher.

Jackie, if it were only the seniors that paid into SS getting something out of it, it would be a different story. The truth is that there are way more people drawing off of SS then ever paid into it. This was not the original intention of SS. I believe it was originally set up as an indepentant trust fund and I also believe it was during Lyndon Johnson's term that it was put in the general fund so that congress could Dip into it.

[JackieB]

Jackie, if it were only the seniors that paid into SS getting something out of it, it would be a different story. The truth is that there are way more people drawing off of SS then ever paid into it. This was not the original intention of SS. I believe it was originally set up as an indepentant trust fund and I also believe it was during Lyndon Johnson's term that it was put in the general fund so that congress could Dip into it.

I had a question about that. Can a person draw from social security if he/she hasn't paid anything into the fund? I know that some qualify because someone else who paid in (e.g. parent of minor) is now deceased. I'm not talking about these recipients.

This is where I have a problem. If we've got so many people drawing from social security that really shouldn't receive it, then why, even when we have "conservatives" in control of both the legislative and administrative branches (which happened under GWB, right?) introducing bills to get those people removed from the program?

It seems like whenever I hear any high-level politician talking about Social Security, it's as if it's a sacred program that nobody can touch, and I don't hear them finishing by saying "...except people who shouldn't be receiving benefits in the first place. We're going to have to stop paying their benefits."

[HoustonFarrier]

I had a question about that. Can a person draw from social security if he/she hasn't paid anything into the fund?

Yes...in the case of a disability....and that can be a LONG time. There are lawyers out there who SPECIALIZE in getting people who have been turned down for SS Disabilty. Some need it...some don't....but it's a boondoggle, and, political suicide for any politician who tries to 'cut benefits'. While SSI is "supposed" to come out of general treasury funds, "loans" are made to the General fund from SS to pay these.

Steve

[JackieB]

Yes...in the case of a disability....and that can be a LONG time. There are lawyers out there who SPECIALIZE in getting people who have been turned down for SS Disabilty. Some need it...some don't....but it's a boondoggle, and, political suicide for any politician who tries to 'cut benefits'. While SSI is "supposed" to come out of general treasury funds, "loans" are made to the General fund from SS to pay these.

Steve

Thanks for explaining. That is certainly a problem, then. It is common to hear of perfectly able people who are collecting disability benefits. I didn't think that this money came from the Social Security fund, though. Not that it would be any better regardless of where the money comes from, but I thought that anyone who received Social Security either paid into it or is a dependent of someone who paid in.

[HoustonFarrier]

it's not *supposed* too...but.......

Steve

[gaited07]

There's no way in heck that I'm saying that retirees don't deserve every penny they get...AND THEN SOME! They worked for and EARNED EVERY PENNY of that money when they were younger, and ABLE. And if some greedy-@$$ politician hadn't raided the Social Security fund and thrown it down a rat hole, or given it to some illegal alien who never contributed to it in the first place, then it would still be TOTALLY SELF SUPPORTING and I wouldn't be sitting here wondering what's going to happen when I RETIRE and there IS no Social Security and Medicare.

http://forum.horse.com/upfiles/smiley/soap%20box.gif (http://javascript<b></b>:void(opener.addSmiley('body1','http://forum.horse.com/upfiles/smiley/soap box.gif')); self.focus();)

Illegal Aliens sponging off the system is a WHOLE 'NOTHER sore spot with me. I don't EVEN want to think about that right now or the top of my head will blow clean off.



I'm with you on this one!!!
It frosts my biscuits to hear some many people at work tell me who they would vote for in this past election and when I ask, well, why don't you vote? They tell me that they are NOT a CITIZEN of this COUNTRY and have been living here for 7+++ years???!!!
They bring other family members here to this country and get them WELFARE and MEDICARE/MEDICAID and wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,GRANTS TO OUR SCHOOLS FOR THE ILLEGAL ALIEN CHILDREN TO LEARN FREE or CLOSE TO IT while our AMERICAN BORN Children can NOT AFFORD these schools due to the tuition COSTS WITHOUT GRANTS!!!
I feel that any person living in this COUNTRY, MUST WORK and put into the SSI in-order to draw from it, PERIOD! As for welfare, you have to be an AMERICAN CITIZEN and it should be a HARDSHIP LOAN NOT FREEBIES!!! With a reasonable repayment plan to welfare to help other AMERICAN FAMILIES in NEED.
As for all the ALIENS in this COUNTRY on a visa, Good for you but I would not have a visa last over two years and NO AMERICAN DOLLARS should be SENT OVER TO SEA'S to support THEIR NATIVE COUNTRY!!! And they can not return to the AMERICAN SOIL for 5 years after their two year visa. Also, for their taxes, they should be TAXED MORE than an AMERICAN CITIZEN, this would entice them to become a citizen of this country if they are serious about OUR COUNTRY, otherwise, get OUT! These added taxes to them would GO TO OUR AMERICAN CHILDREN and THEIR EDUCATION not any FOREIGNER wanting a FREE RIDE!!!!!

I have more but not enough time.
I"m passionate about my country and our future as a nation. I believe we need to focus on our future leaders of this wonderful country and STOP giving FREE RIDES to the unworthy UN-AMERICAN'S.

[gaited07]

I do want to add that we need to PROTECT our "AMERICAN" SENIORS.
If we STOP paying to the FOREIGNERS/ALIENS, that would leave MORE FOR OUR AMERICAN SENIORS and OUR AMERICAN CHILDREN!!!!!

Let them go back to their country to be supported with their SSI, OH, THEY DON'T HAVE FREE RIDES????? SHAME SHAME SHAME!!!

[FrogInABlender]

Here! Here!!:clap:

[missdixie]

Just a simple question, but nonetheless important to me, as I've already invested a significant amount of my life (and $$) into my chosen career to become moderately successful.

Given that, for me, additional effort = more success = more $$ = rich (??) = higher tax bracket = less return on my investment, perhaps the incentive to further personal advancement is not so great anymore.

Don't get me wrong, pride in a job well done and being self-sufficient is great, but in the end, my goal is not only to be able to provide for my family, but also to enjoy the benefits of my efforts. I'm just selfish, I guess ;)


So, here's my question: For tax purposes under the in-coming administration's plan, what is to be the new definition of rich?
$250k/year per household. If you want more info, go to www.barackobama.com

[Tatesgram]

Gaited, I am so with you and Frog on this. They say the illegals are here doing the jobs Americans don't want to do? Fine, if you want to draw a government check, receive food stamps, etc, you're going to work one of these jobs.

A family member I prefer not to claim receives food stamps, all she has to do is apply for three jobs a month and get turned down. (you should see her :eek:, I'm pretty sure she said three a month?). Her kids have all gone to private schools, taken dance and karate lessons, been in beauty pageants all from the generosity of others. While see sleeps all day and uh...parties all night. :nono:

Whoa, I could gone on and on about this...

[missdixie]

I'm with you on this one!!!
It frosts my biscuits to hear some many people at work tell me who they would vote for in this past election and when I ask, well, why don't you vote? They tell me that they are NOT a CITIZEN of this COUNTRY and have been living here for 7+++ years???!!!
They bring other family members here to this country and get them WELFARE and MEDICARE/MEDICAID and wait,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,GRANTS TO OUR SCHOOLS FOR THE ILLEGAL ALIEN CHILDREN TO LEARN FREE or CLOSE TO IT while our AMERICAN BORN Children can NOT AFFORD these schools due to the tuition COSTS WITHOUT GRANTS!!!
I feel that any person living in this COUNTRY, MUST WORK and put into the SSI in-order to draw from it, PERIOD! As for welfare, you have to be an AMERICAN CITIZEN and it should be a HARDSHIP LOAN NOT FREEBIES!!! With a reasonable repayment plan to welfare to help other AMERICAN FAMILIES in NEED.
As for all the ALIENS in this COUNTRY on a visa, Good for you but I would not have a visa last over two years and NO AMERICAN DOLLARS should be SENT OVER TO SEA'S to support THEIR NATIVE COUNTRY!!! And they can not return to the AMERICAN SOIL for 5 years after their two year visa. Also, for their taxes, they should be TAXED MORE than an AMERICAN CITIZEN, this would entice them to become a citizen of this country if they are serious about OUR COUNTRY, otherwise, get OUT! These added taxes to them would GO TO OUR AMERICAN CHILDREN and THEIR EDUCATION not any FOREIGNER wanting a FREE RIDE!!!!!

I have more but not enough time.
I"m passionate about my country and our future as a nation. I believe we need to focus on our future leaders of this wonderful country and STOP giving FREE RIDES to the unworthy UN-AMERICAN'S.
BTW I do take the "conservative" stance on this issue and I do have to agree. I don't, however, have a problem with people who are not citizens who are on the books and pay taxes ( work visas, green cards etc. ). I think if you pay into the same kitty we do, you have a right to the services. However, if you are not paying taxes and are trying to mooch off the taxpayers illegally, get lost. We have enough problems trying to take care of our own.

[dustys_girlly]

all i have to say to this is i am barely making it as is, i am scared to see what happens when obama gets the reins. and that is it is a very bad idea to get me started on welfare, WIC, and illegally aliens! try working at stores that take those kind of payments and see how you feel about them after wards!

[gaited07]

BTW I do take the "conservative" stance on this issue and I do have to agree. I don't, however, have a problem with people who are not citizens who are on the books and pay taxes ( work visas, green cards etc. ). I think if you pay into the same kitty we do, you have a right to the services. However, if you are not paying taxes and are trying to mooch off the taxpayers illegally, get lost. We have enough problems trying to take care of our own.:clap::clap::clap:


I don't have a problem with immigrants coming into this country LEGALLY, it's the ILLEGALS that I have a problem with.
I also have a problem with the "not motivated AMERICAN Trash" that feel that everyone else owes them a life while they sit at home, collecting more and more welfare income for each and every child they have. And "We hard WORKING AMERICANS" fit the bill for this ABUSE!
I do however, feel that work visa's, green card holders need better governing. Yes, they are working and paying their way, however, they are also receiving TAX BREAKS and tuition reimbursements and grants. Why can't we give those breaks to our own???

[Gliderider]

:clap::clap::clap:


I don't have a problem with immigrants coming into this country LEGALLY, it's the ILLEGALS that I have a problem with.
I also have a problem with the "not motivated AMERICAN Trash" that feel that everyone else owes them a life while they sit at home, collecting more and more welfare income for each and every child they have. And "We hard WORKING AMERICANS" fit the bill for this ABUSE!
I do however, feel that work visa's, green card holders need better governing. Yes, they are working and paying their way, however, they are also receiving TAX BREAKS and tuition reimbursements and grants. Why can't we give those breaks to our own???

:clap::clap:

[missdixie]

I agree, gaited. Illegals are not the only ones abusing the system. As a matter of fact, Americans are even worse. Absolutely there are people who really need and deserve government assistance, but we really need to regulate welfare programs more so that the people who are just being lazy and popping out kids so that we will pay them with our tax dollars will be punished and people who are disabled or elderly can receive more benefits. The purpose is to help people who can't help themselves, not to reward the lazy and dishonest. The whole system makes me sick. I used to work at a community health clinic and I saw many many young immigrant Mexican women who had at least several children, no job, boyfriends/husbands with no job, just having baby after baby after baby. I'm serious, they were like perpetually pregnant. They would be like 22 and come into the clinic with 4 little ones, 6 months pregnant again. I asked someone why they were doing this when they had no way to support the children and could get free birth control? I was told that they get WIC everytime they get pregnant, and receive the benefits until the baby is 2, then they get pregnant again and again and keep using this system, all the while receiving Medicaid, WIC, and welfare just because they are being irresponsible about having children so they can abuse the system. I'm sorry but I think that's just disgusting. Take some birth control and get a damn job like the rest of us.