Today starts a new day

[FoxFireEMT]

Finally after 2 days of straight rain - the skies are clear...well sort of, but theres no rain.. and I am meeting my "old" but not so old farrier at his farm to learn some techniques and other things that he wants to teach me about trimming. I'm so excited. He does the natural hoof trims and he has been doing Legend's feet for the last 2 years. I have never been so pleased & I have learned a lot from him already. However, when I moved Legend to another farm only a few short weeks ago, he was not able to follow me because of the distance. Much understood, but I was so upset. I began looking for someone in my area that practices like him. (granted there are many good farriers in our area, but do not practice the natural hoof trimming, but barefooted trimming ~ yes there is a difference if you talk to the right person.) Although I believe that a certain farrier that does the barefoot trims would of done fine, I wanted to continue Legend on the right path ~ becuase she has come so far on her hoof appearence & health. So after talking to my "old" but not so old farrier he & I came to the conclusion that "I can do this on my own!" (his words) ... mine not so much! :p

So today ~ I am going to his house & picking his brain & his horses feet to learn more & get a "good grasp on this" so I start confidently doing Legends on my own!

Yeeeee haw... lets go.

I'll let you know how I make out!

[HoustonFarrier]

(granted there are many good farriers in our area, but do not practice the natural hoof trimming, but barefooted trimming ~ yes there is a difference if you talk to the right person.)

There is NO difference, if you talk to the right farrier :)

Steve

[JackieB]

Great. Let us know. You can do it!

Don't be put out if you get pushback from farriers here saying that there isn't a difference between a barefoot trim and natural trim. In fact, there shouldn't be a difference, but you are absolutely right that in practice there really is. Way too many farriers out there just don't really know how to trim a horse's foot properly. None on this forum of course, but we do see evidence of it all the time. Forumers post photos taken after the trim and our farriers point out that it was a terrible job with no plan for transitioning the hoof to a more balanced state in the future.

[JackieB]

There is NO difference, if you talk to the right farrier :)

Steve

That's what I was just writing about. But you had to admit that this misunderstanding is not the fault of the horse owners, Steve. In fact, I have a question for you. If you had to take a guess at what percentage of farriers are really well trained, what would you guess? I don't mean at your level of knowledge and experience, but just competent. They can do a good trim and put shoes on properly. I'm just curious.

[HoustonFarrier]

Great. Let us know. You can do it!

Don't be put out if you get pushback from farriers here saying that there isn't a difference between a barefoot trim and natural trim. In fact, there shouldn't be a difference, but you are absolutely right that in practice there really is. Way too many farriers out there just don't really know how to trim a horse's foot properly. None on this forum of course, but we do see evidence of it all the time. Forumers post photos taken after the trim and our farriers point out that it was a terrible job with no plan for transitioning the hoof to a more balanced state in the future.

I see the same thing from "natural trimmers" all the time too...in fact, I'm putting shoes on one this afternoon...seems his "natural trim" made him real sore.

The key to healthy hoofs is doing what is right FOR THAT HORSE, not following a "popular fad". If you have a trimmer that is keeping your horse sound, it's not the "style"...or "type" of trim that is working...it's the ability of the practitioner, and YOUR correct equine husbandry practices.:)

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

That's what I was just writing about. But you had to admit that this misunderstanding is not the fault of the horse owners, Steve. In fact, I have a question for you. If you had to take a guess at what percentage of farriers are really well trained, what would you guess? I don't mean at your level of knowledge and experience, but just competent. They can do a good trim and put shoes on properly. I'm just curious.

It would not be a high number. I'll be the first to tell you there ARE definitely problems on how and what we teach farriers these days. Over the years, we have lost the practice of apprenticeship. It is SO important in this trade to learn from what others have experienced. I apprenticed for 2 years before I ever drove a nail. Another problem is a focused continuing education system. There are seminars and such out there, but there isn't allot of incentive to go. The "good ones" are the ones who continue to learn.

I also feel that most farrier schools spend far too much time on the forge vs time learning equine anatomy and physiology. Don't get me wrong, forging is VERY important, but what I see in new farriers is folks who are great on making a shoe, but marginal on applying the shoe....and even MORE marginal on preparing the hoof for the shoe. The most important part of shoeing a horse is the trim.

If the "barefoot" movement has done anything right, it has been the focus on anatomy and physiology. Where they are going wrong is a weekend seminar and handing the person a "diploma" to go out and practice. Their other abject failure is trying to "market" the barefoot trims as something they are not, while blaming SHOES on the woes of unsound horses. They could have captured much more of the market, had they just stuck to basics and not tried to spin their trim into something is is not.

Trimmer or farrier.....if your horse is sound, it's because of the quality application of sound shoeing and trimming principles.....NOT what they call their trim.:)

Steve

[FoxFireEMT]

Okay maybe I worded that wrong. Right there shouldn't be a difference but there is...
And maybe there all in the same when basics are involved .
Buy I think we can all agree that there are many people out there who claim they practice a certain "way" but in all reality they.are not good at all. Must be those weekend graduates. I believe in the natural trim for my horse and my trimmer will admit that its not for every horse but most horses can do it with the proper trim and mechanics.

So anyway... go head and rain on my parade! This is a learning experience for me and me only. I will not be doing anyome elses horse except my own.

[Peggy Sue]

Fox I dont' think he is trying to rain on your parade alot of us are sick of people thinking this is something great and new when in reality it is just a good ole basic trim done right :)

Good luck and let us know how it goes

[JackieB]

Okay maybe I worded that wrong. Right there shouldn't be a difference but there is...
And maybe there all in the same when basics are involved .
Buy I think we can all agree that there are many people out there who claim they practice a certain "way" but in all reality they.are not good at all. Must be those weekend graduates. I believe in the natural trim for my horse and my trimmer will admit that its not for every horse but most horses can do it with the proper trim and mechanics.

So anyway... go head and rain on my parade! This is a learning experience for me and me only. I will not be doing anyome elses horse except my own.

Nobody wants to rain on your parade, FoxFire. Really. I'm super-excited for you, as you know. And Steve is really just trying to make sure that the record is straight.

And you're right that there are a lot of people who claim to be good at something they aren't.

OK. Can't wait to see the pictures.

[HoustonFarrier]

Okay maybe I worded that wrong. Right there shouldn't be a difference but there is...

The only difference lies in the hands of the person wielding the tools :) It may just take you awhile to learn that :)

Buy I think we can all agree that there are many people out there who claim they practice a certain "way" but in all reality they.are not good at all.
Farriers and trimmers alike.

So anyway... go head and rain on my parade! This is a learning experience for me and me only. I will not be doing anyome elses horse except my own.
I just want you to focus on the RIGHT stuff :) Don't just trim because someone shows to how...trim because someone teaches you WHY. In the end, your horse will benefit.
Go for it, and learn all you can learn !!!!

Steve

[FoxFireEMT]

Right.... Anyway, thanks for the well wishes... And just for the record this is NOT something New & Great to me! This has been me & my horses adventure for some time & I have never jumped on her expressing my beliefs because I DID not know all the facts & I still don't. BUT I do know that this works for me & her and all I was simply trying to do is express to EVERYONE my new found excitement for my new adventure in "the trimming world". THAT is all.

[Vegashorselady]

I can't wait to hear how it goes! I wish I had time to spend a day shadowing my farrier...what a great opportunity!

[HoustonFarrier]

Right.... Anyway, thanks for the well wishes... And just for the record this is NOT something New & Great to me! This has been me & my horses adventure for some time & I have never jumped on her expressing my beliefs because I DID not know all the facts & I still don't. BUT I do know that this works for me & her and all I was simply trying to do is express to EVERYONE my new found excitement for my new adventure in "the trimming world". THAT is all.

No problems...I'll never offer you any advice again. I love it how, when folks need help, and you give it, well that's great, but when you offer advice that they don't want to hear, well all of a sudden it's another world.

Best of luck.

Steve

[Tiz]

"...do not practice the natural hoof trimming, but barefooted trimming ~ yes there is a difference if you talk to the right person.)"

I'm curious about this. What is the difference?

[All4Grace]

"...do not practice the natural hoof trimming, but barefooted trimming ~ yes there is a difference if you talk to the right person.)"

I'm curious about this. What is the difference?

the only "real" difference is the name.

I Agree with Steve in don't just learn how but why. Knowing why your trimming a certain way for your horse is so important. Like why do I take more heel off "Triggers' hoof then say "Bucks" and why does "Mack" need his toes rolled a little more then say "Gingers". A good farrier and trimmer don't just know about the hoof, they know the legs and shoulders and the horse in whole. Watching your horses move is a great tool, just studying their movement and gaits, how they set each foot down and so on.

Good Luck Fox!

it's great knowing how to trim. I love knowing how, I just hate doing it only because I am not physically very strong and it takes A LOT of muscle and work especially if your horse(s) aren't the most compliant to trim. *cough* Grace *cough* All our horses are barefoot and my sister trims them 90% of the time with me taking the 10% when she can't for some reason. I always give farriers so much credit for all their hard work, because it is NOT easy folks. Before I learn how to trim I used to complain about some of my old farriers, now... while I might not have agreed with some of them, I still give them so much credit and kudos for their hard work.

[Petra]

I agree it's a hard work. My farrier taught me how to trim my horses too. Especially now after I had my wrists broken it's pretty hard work for me. Sometimes I'm not even strong enough to squeeze the clippers and have to call my husband to squeeze them for me. Cannot do more than one horse at a time.
I don't know much about "natural trimming" so I cannot comment on this. I did notice that lately whatever is "natural" sells better, from food to cleaning products, lol.
I don't really care what label my farrier chooses to use as long as the trim works for my horse.
I have to admit I wouldn't know how to trim other horses right. I don’t really need to know. I only know how to trim my horses. My farrier explained to me what the hoofs should look like and I try to keep them that way. Than I call him twice a year to come and check on me to make sure everything is OK.
Works for me and him...he lives quite far from here too so it’s inconvenient for him to travel for an hour to trim my 3 horses. And my horses get trimmed any time they need it. And I save quite a bit of money too. :)

[Tiz]

"the only "real" difference is the name."

That's my take on it, but I'm curious to know what people who say there is a difference mean.

[FoxFireEMT]

Steve do not be offended that I do not take critizism well. I did not necessarily ask for advice I was expressing my excitement for my new found exciting. Do not get mad at me Steve I really do appreciate your knowledge. Dt sto

[JackieB]

Steve do not be offended that I do not take critizism well. I did not necessarily ask for advice I was expressing my excitement for my new found exciting. Do not get mad at me Steve I really do appreciate your knowledge. Dt sto


You'll probably have to let this thread run its course now that it kind of headed in a different direction, but please post pictures when you can on a new thread. Remember that we discussed the importance of hanging it out there a bit so that one can improve. Good Luck!!!!! Can't wait to see the photos.

[JackieB]

"...do not practice the natural hoof trimming, but barefooted trimming ~ yes there is a difference if you talk to the right person.)"

I'm curious about this. What is the difference?

OK, I'm not commenting on whether this is right or wrong, but I can tell you what is the difference. The "natural" group focuses everything on the wild model. Trying to recreate the conditions that mustangs experience in the wild. This extends beyond the trim and goes into diet, exercise, living conditions, etc. It's a whole philosophy.

So if you were to say to Steve - "Your goal is always the wild model, right? You want to trim every horse in a way that uses wild mustangs as the template, correct?", I'm positive that he would say that this is not the case. Also, the "natural" group feels that shoes are inherently bad for horses and that they hinder the hoof's ability to function properly while also damaging it by driving in nails. Also obviously something that Steve would not agree with.

Again, without any comment at all regarding who is right or wrong, there is definitely a difference.

[Peggy Sue]

the problem with that line of thought is that mustangs aren't ridden and one with bad feet end up as feed for others

[Ranger44]

OK, so with my warped sense of humor and on a much lighter note.....am I the only one that noticed that FFE said she'd let us know how she "made out" with her farrier?

"Yeeeee haw... lets go.

I'll let you know how I make out!" :innocent:

[gabhainn]

OK, so with my warped sense of humor and on a much lighter note.....am I the only one that noticed that FFE said she'd let us know how she "made out" with her farrier?

"Yeeeee haw... lets go.

I'll let you know how I make out!" :innocent:
I saw it too but I just let it go, I was feeling generous...............Kevin

[WashingtonBay]

It's a whole....

...religion. :)


Foxfire... I will say if you can't handle critique, opinion, disagreement and sometimes criticism, then hoof care threads are not probably the right thing to start. They always elicit opinion, asked for, or not. But the discussion and debate are a good thing... they really are, if people are listening while engaging.

And think about it. You're trying to tell a professional farrier how to define the terms of his profession. I think it'd be pretty surprising if he didn't have some strong opinions of his own on that :)

[JackieB]

You know what would be a great show like for RFD, or maybe even Animal Planet? Take horses in various conditions of hoof health and assign some to a person like Steve and some to someone like Pete Ramey, and follow them for a year. Then condense it all into a one-hour program.

For example, Pete Ramey says that there may be a horse out there that needs shoes, but he's just never encountered one yet. Steve would say that there are absolutely horses that need shoes. It would be interesting to see a program that dealt with these opposing ideas.

[Tiz]

I was thinking more in terms of mechanics, Jackie, not the entire philosophy. Barefoot trim/natural trim/difference?

Another thing about the mustang model... I seem to remember that the horses used for the model lived on very rocky terrain. Wonder what a mustang hoof model who lives on grasslands would look like?

[JackieB]

I was thinking more in terms of mechanics, Jackie, not the entire philosophy. Barefoot trim/natural trim/difference?

Another thing about the mustang model... I seem to remember that the horses used for the model lived on very rocky terrain. Wonder what a mustang hoof model who lives on grasslands would look like?

The mechanics are related to the wild model as well, Tiz. I just added the rest of the stuff for context. They trim in a way that mimics the mustang hoof. They are always striving to make that hoof more like a wild mustang's hoof. So, they do that "mustang roll" thing and always follow the life sole as reference.

Perhaps Steve does it the same way when he's trimming. I don't know. My farrier sure didn't. His idea of a barefoot trim involved cutting away all the callused area around Buster's toes. One time, my horse wasn't sound for an entire month. I was told that he was "just ouchy" and there wasn't an alternative to putting shoes on him. I thought that couldn't be quite right, started doing research on my own, discovered Pete Ramey, and figured out what my farrier was doing wrong. Nice guy, just uninformed.

The farriers and those dedicated to barefoot horses don't generally get along all that well, so I don't think they are comparing notes on the difference between their methods anyway. :)

[WashingtonBay]

You know what would be a great show like for RFD, or maybe even Animal Planet? Take horses in various conditions of hoof health and assign some to a person like Steve and some to someone like Pete Ramey, and follow them for a year. Then condense it all into a one-hour program.

For example, Pete Ramey says that there may be a horse out there that needs shoes, but he's just never encountered one yet. Steve would say that there are absolutely horses that need shoes. It would be interesting to see a program that dealt with these opposing ideas.

Not possible because you can't take the same horse and split him up into different places for different futures and potentials. Each horse only has one life, and only one here and now. What's normal? What's the best he can be?

I have a 29 year old shod horse and a 9 year old barefoot one. They have common location, nearly common diet, similar breed, same farriers the last several years, and almost nothing in common about their movement, conformation, and feet.

[FoxFireEMT]

OK, so with my warped sense of humor and on a much lighter note.....am I the only one that noticed that FFE said she'd let us know how she "made out" with her farrier?

"Yeeeee haw... lets go.

I'll let you know how I make out!" :innocent:

;)

[Ranger44]

Yep, I think that wink answered the burning question.

[FoxFireEMT]

All I'm gonna say is I'll miss that rear end! Lol o yeah and his knowledge!

[Ranger44]

This won't make you a sloooowwww learner now will it? :p

I still envy you and I assure you the rear end has no bearing whatsoever on that. :hysterical:

[saddlebum]

Interesting thread. I must be losing my touch by not catching the "make out with my farrier" line. Kevin must be feeling awful mellow to let something like that just slip by.

On the more serious side I don't know the difference between the two. I do, however, agree with Steve. Whether shod, trimmed, natural, barefoot, whatever the case may be, the proper care depends on that specific horse at that time. I was a farrier for many years before someone pointed out that it was actually work. (something I try to have no part of) Most of the corrective work I did was correcting problems caused by some other person claiming to be a farrier.

I have a neighbor who does what she calls Natural hoof care. Well I don't know how natural taking a grinder to a horses foot is but I do know that before she starte trimming the horse all of its feet pointed pretty much the same direction..............not so much anymore. That isn't meant to be a slam on Natural hoofcare but a slam on the person doing it.

[FoxFireEMT]

Most certainly right. Steve was right. It is more in the person then in the the "type" of care or service someone claims to do.

and he was still correct in saying it doesn't make a difference as long as the person doing it is doing the right thing. :)

In any way you look at it, I'm excited about learning my new adventure.

Ranger- If I knew he wouldn't catch me I'd take a pic of that rump! :innocent: haha... I'm gonna be a REEEEEALL slow learner! As Steve has pointed out ~ it takes many many times to become good at it. And you can't just got to a weekend seminar and assume your a farrier/trimmer WHATEVER! Soooooo I will have to give it at the very least.... a few months OR more! LOL