Retraining Cinnamon

[CaddoCinnamon]

Guys as you know I am back at square one with her because of fear issues. Not really toward objects but toward people. I am going to have to work long and hard again to get her trust back. I trained this mare myself when she was just a 2 year old. I am wanting to redo her training because well she was my first trained horse that I have ever done. I see some flaws so here is my question. How do I restart a horse with fear issues and how do I get her to move off of pressure without freaking out. I know a lot of you are going to say take her to a trainer. I do have a trainer that is going to be helping me out with her. It is a different trainer than Stick. This trainer that I have found works with problem horses and we have talked a lot about Cinnamon and also if he would be willing to come to my place and see me working with her. He agreed and came the other day.

He said that until she trusts me again there isn't anyway that a trainer will be able to train her. Mainly because of the underlaying issue of trust. He trains WP horses and Performance horses as well. How do I get her trust back. I want this mare to do things because she wants to please not because she is scared that if she doesn't she will get hit by me or something in my hand. The site of mare flinching just because I approach breaks my heart and I literally cry because of it. Sorry that this is so long but she is my baby and I want to do it right. He has said that wants I have her trust then he is more than willing to take her and train her for me.

He said the best thing to do with her is to bring her inside in the mornings and groom her. Sit next to her and talk to her. Do this for about 2 weeks and see where I am at with her. Is this where I need to start. She is not one that likes treats so I can't win her over with food.

Thanks for reading guys. I appreciate any insight into working with my Cinnamon N' Spice.

[zoel_222]

He said that until she trusts me again there isn't anyway that a trainer will be able to train her. Mainly because of the underlaying issue of trust.

I'm sorry but that's a big bunch of BS.

Respect always comes before trust. A horse will not trust you until she can respect you as the leader and knows you are the boss and she's in safe hands when you're there. That's how horses' brains work.
It goes:
1.) Training
2.) Respect
3.) Trust

If the trainer says it's impossible to start training this horse right now, find a different trainer. Seriously. Training is the only way you're going to get the horse back to where she was.

Work with her as often as you can. Do lots of lungeing and hand-walking and start desensitizing her. I'd lay off the saddle work for now and just get her respectful and listening on the ground. Playing baby with her and sitting there trying to be her friend isn't going to make her get over her fears. It's going to nurture those fears actually. What she needs is a strong leader that she can look to for protection and guidance. Trust me, I had the same problems with Auda.

I would work on sacking her out a lot and round penning her. Don't treat her like some broken, abused scared baby. Treat her like a horse.

[CaddoCinnamon]

Zoel I want a partner. I can get her to do things but it is out of fear. How do I get the trust. She acts scared all of the time. Just a little things like my dog at the barn barking scares her. How do I desentize her when all she does is run backwards. Lunging her is kind of out of the question right now because of my lunge whip. She spooks and just about ran through my gate. She turned at the last minute but how do I approach her training. No I don't baby her never have but her fears are worse than when I first got this mare. If her training isn't done right she will hurt somebody and this is what I am trying to avoid.

[TheBadLands]

I agree with zoel. Especially on the time spent on the ground.

Fear issues are best worked out from the ground.

The trust and coddling a horse are only going to get you hurt. She needs firm discipline and steady, but not gloaty, comfort in a scary situation.

I agree, take her for walks, expose her to new things and go from there.

I don't trust anyone I meet until they earn it. And you'll earn it faster if she respects you first.

Believe it or not, some horses spook because they've learned it gets them out of work. I am guessing that could be the issue.

Why did her new/old owner give her back again?

[zoel_222]

Okay, to have a partner you have to have mutual respect. I'm not saying go out there and dominate her and start whipping her around. You need to get her to respect you before you can have that trust and have that partnership. That's just how it works, there's now way around it. You can't have a complete 50/50 relationship with your horse. The human always has to be alpha to some degree, otherwise it's dangerous and impossible. If you're not alpha, that means when your horse says "I don't wanna" and bucks or kicks or something, you'll say "oh okay, sorry I bothered you I'll come back another time." That's not how we handle horses. Horses need that order. It's how they are. In a herd, they aren't 100% equals with each other. They're either the lead horse or the lower horse. They still get along just fine with each other, but nobody is 100% equal with each other. In a human-horse relationship if you don't assume alpha, the horse will. It's just what's natural to them. I'm partners with my horse. I don't dominate them and push them into anything or make them listen to me out of fear. We all have a strong mutual respect for each other, but I'm still herd boss and when they get out of line they answer to me. It's called respect. Just like Chica and Whitney (my mares) are best buds but when Chica starts getting on Whitney's nerves Whitney will discipline her and tell her to leave her alone. It doesn't hurt their relationship. In fact it empowers it. It lets Chica know that she is in a relationship with a strong horse who can protect her from the scary boogymen hiding in her pasture. If Chica and Whitney were both friends and passive to each other they would be insecure and nervous in their herd because they wouldn't have anyone protecting them or following them.

I stand by what I said about you needing to work her and get her respectful and get her desensitized. I get that she is scared when she does listen to you she does it out of fear. Well not asking her to do anything isn't going to make that fear go away, it's just going to mask the problem because you aren't asking anything of her. Time is going to be your biggest friend in this situation. She is going to have to learn through time with positive training that your cues are not a death threat, they're just a cue.

If she is really as scared as you say, then you're right, I wouldn't take her outside the round pen/pasture to work her just because you don't seem to have her control. Just do in hand work in a small area. I would definitely do desensitizing. Desensitizing doesn't have to be waving big scary objects around and tossing them all over her body. Just start small and simple. Does she let you brush her? Start by desensitizing her to brushes. Take a brush and start rubbing it on her shoulder or neck or whatever is her most confident spot. Just work your way slowly around her body with small objects such as a brush a hoof pick, a bundled up rope, a sweatshirt etc. If she starts to step away from the object move with her in a non-threatening manner (meaning don't stomp or run or lunge towards her obviously) and act like nothing happened and try to keep the object on her. Talk to her and just be very chill about the situation. If she escalates and gets more fearful of the object and tries to bolt or something then let her move away from the object and let her stand back so she can see you with the object and see what's going on, then pull her forward, act like nothing happened and start again. Keep repeating this. You might not see miracles and it's not like one session is going to make her totally chill about something, but repetition is key, especially with timid horses. With desensitizing you're not teaching her that so and so object isn't scary, you're teaching her that, yeah, some stuff in life is scary, but it's okay because I'm here to show you what to do and how to handle it. I would keep doing this with small, less intimating objects. Work your way up to a saddle blanket, cloth bag, feed bag and the whip. Keep slow and steady, don't go swinging objects around or slapping them on her.

You're probably going to go through a lot of you introducing an object and her snorting at it and backing straight up or trying to get away. Like I said, just keep repeating your steps. It will take time, that's no argument, but to make progress you have to try.

Remember to keep your demeanor strong and laid back. If you are tense, scared, angry or sad for her, she's going to be reflecting all those feelings and she's going to be scared of you and wondering why you're telling her not to be scared when you yourself are.

I'm not sure what your fencing in your round pen in like. If it's flimsy or easily escape-able, I wouldn't be lungeing her, but if it's sturdy enough I would be free lungeing her. You don't need a whip, especially with such a sensitive horse. Just use a lead rope or even your arm. Do lots of direction changes and transitions. Yeah she might be scared at first but she needs to know that she's going to have to work and do what you say and you're not going to eat her. It's going to take time, but you're going to need that respect if you want her trust. Sitting with her and giving her carrots and grooming her is fine and dandy and I'm not saying don't do that, but you still need do work her if you expect to see any kind of trust or respect.


Now that was super long and my fingers are tired so I'm heading out now. That's really all the advice I have. Those are my methods, that's what works for me and the horses I've worked with. I'm not a horse guru or anything, but I do know a thing or two and this is just how I train. If it were me, I wouldn't go back to that trainer who said you can't work a horse until he trusts you. But, I'm not you, so do what you gotta do, sister. :cowboy:

[TheBadLands]

^^^ Well said :)

[CaddoCinnamon]

Well one reason is because of their granddaughter. I told them from the start do not ever allow a kid to ride her. She panics and they will get hurt bad. I know this from experience I tried to sit Robbie up on her when he was 18 months old. She has known him from day one and has seen him play around with me while I am grooming her or the other horses. he asked mommy can I sit on Cinnamon I thought well yeah she is tied so it won't be a problem. i was wrong as soon as I picked him up in my arms she turned her backend toward me. Needless to say I didn't set him up there. They tried with her granddaughter and she got kicked. I do not blame Cinnamon at all they knew how she was and have known what Cinnamon will do if a child walks up on her. I asked my friend how bad was the kick she said it left a bruise on her leg. I asked them why did you do that knowing full well that Cinnamon doesn't like kids. Her response to me was we just wanted to see and I asked them plainly were you drinking. She said yes.
Not to long after that she dumped friend of theres. Again drinking was involved. Finally the straw was when my friend tried to ride her Cinnamon dumped her. I asked her what led up to it. She said that Cinnamon wasn't listening so she started yelling at her which escalates. Her bf took a stick to get her going and when he hit her with it she dumped my friend. So a lot of things. That is also why she is never going to be sold again. Hubby and I have already talked about Cinnamon and he and I agree she stays regardless.

[CaddoCinnamon]

Zoel yes I spent time with her today. I thought that since I am starting over I will start by grooming her. I did not tie her for this. I held the lead rope and when I put the curry comb up so that she could smell it and investigate she started backing up. I just kept walking and talking softly to her until she stopped and allowed me to put it on her shoulder. I have find out from the very beginning she is more confident about her shoulder being brushed and dealt with first. That is why I started there. By the end of 45 minutes I had groomed both sides of her except for her head. She is head shy so I will deal with that in time.

[TheBadLands]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this mare the cute one in some of your videos?

She seems awfully laid back and quiet when you ride her..

And isn't she blind in one eye? Could explain some of the behaviors like shying from a brush on the shoulder etc..

Also, as for her last owners, I still feel like some of her spookiness is more of a threat to you. If those people were so easy to dismount and often wasted I am sure she learned REAL fast how and what needed to be done to get them away from her and not have to work. I don't think they forced her to fear people. I think they taught her to manipulate them.

[BlaiseGlaze]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this mare the cute one in some of your videos?
She seems awfully laid back and quiet when you ride her..
And isn't she blind in one eye? Could explain some of the behaviors like shying from a brush on the shoulder etc..
Also, as for her last owners, I still feel like some of her spookiness is more of a threat to you. If those people were so easy to dismount and often wasted I am sure she learned REAL fast how and what needed to be done to get them away from her and not have to work. I don't think they forced her to fear people. I think they taught her to manipulate them.

Umm Hmm, Buncha good points ^^there^^

[zoel_222]

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't this mare the cute one in some of your videos?

She seems awfully laid back and quiet when you ride her..

And isn't she blind in one eye? Could explain some of the behaviors like shying from a brush on the shoulder etc..

Also, as for her last owners, I still feel like some of her spookiness is more of a threat to you. If those people were so easy to dismount and often wasted I am sure she learned REAL fast how and what needed to be done to get them away from her and not have to work. I don't think they forced her to fear people. I think they taught her to manipulate them.

Good points badlands

[CaddoCinnamon]

I still feel like some of her spookiness is more of a threat to you.

Badlands What do you mean by this? I am sorry but I don't understand. I have never feared this mare in the least. I actually fear my other horses but not her. Don't ask me why that is but I am not afraid to do things around her like I am around the other horses or even Caddo for that matter. It doesn't make sense not even to me.

Yes she is the one that I did of trotting. Pics of me and my boys standing together is of her when we pulled her off of the trailer. Her blindness I do think that might be part of it but she was good really good and the one thing I never did with her is hit her. I have popped her with the lead rope on the shoulder if she tried to run on top of me or if I was riding her and she wouldn't move forward.

At one time I had her solely working off of voice commands walk,trot, and canter. I could transition between them as well just by my voice. I hardly ever rode with my feet on her at all. Now she is different. She is not the same as she was when I gave her to them. I do not know what happened in those 18 months that they had her. When I did check up on her they told me everything was fine. It wasn't until a month ago that they finally told me things weren't right. I also told them that if they still wanted her this was before I saw her that I will go to their place and see what is going on. I would watch them at a distance interacting with her.

My friend is also timid and because she allowed Cinnamon to get the bluff on her things went down hill from there is all I know. I have learned a valuable lesson about her. I would not hesitate on the other horses going somewhere else and thriving but her she won't.

[TheBadLands]

I still feel like some of her spookiness is more of a threat to you.

Badlands What do you mean by this? I am sorry but I don't understand. I have never feared this mare in the least. I actually fear my other horses but not her. Don't ask me why that is but I am not afraid to do things around her like I am around the other horses or even Caddo for that matter. It doesn't make sense not even to me.

I meant, she has learned to manipulate people.. and throughout the rest of this paragraph you've said so yourself. She got away with whatever she wanted.

I didn't say you were scared of her. I said her spookiness is a threat toward you. Meaning, she's trying to make you uneasy enough to leave her alone.


At one time I had her solely working off of voice commands walk,trot, and canter. I could transition between them as well just by my voice. I hardly ever rode with my feet on her at all. Now she is different. She is not the same as she was when I gave her to them. I do not know what happened in those 18 months that they had her. When I did check up on her they told me everything was fine. It wasn't until a month ago that they finally told me things weren't right. I also told them that if they still wanted her this was before I saw her that I will go to their place and see what is going on. I would watch them at a distance interacting with her.

These people obviously ride different than you. Behave different than you. Acted a'fool around this horse.

You aren't getting what I am saying. So try and process this. You asked for advice:

--THIS HORSE IS NOT AN ABUSE CASE OR A HEAD CASE.

--This horse is a product of the last 18 months of exposure to who knows what.

--She isn't "scared" she doesn't need a magical beach moment galloping off into the sunset.

--SHE NEEDS TO BE PUT IN HER PLACE. Period. End of story.

--You do not have to hit her to put her in her place.

--I promise you someone whacking her a time or two, even if it's against everything you believe in, did not scar her for life. If that were the case horses would be unable to co-exist among themselves.. horses whack each other all the time.


My friend is also timid and because she allowed Cinnamon to get the bluff on her things went down hill from there is all I know. I have learned a valuable lesson about her. I would not hesitate on the other horses going somewhere else and thriving but her she won't.

She did not thrive. And the bolded part of your statement just reinforced my advise up there ^^^^

[TheBadLands]

ETA: Take this for what it is Dorothy. I am not being mean. I am trying to answer your questions and explain your concerns.

[CaddoCinnamon]

No I know no one is being mean. I appreciate the help. I just want to do what is best for her situation. She does act differently around me than them. One is because I established the fact that I was alpha with her. Even this morning when I started grooming her and she set back and lunged forward I untied her and worked her in hand.

I don't want to baby her and I know that I also will not be able to fight her if she doesn't want to be held or anything. I just want to start a fresh with her and get her going right again.

This particular mare is an alpha mare anyway. She has only been back in my herd for 2 weeks and she was alpha mare in 3 days. She has strong disposition about herself. Really she doesn't care about being in the company of people. She would rather be with other horses but even then she is the majority of the time off by herself.

I know I have a long way to go with this mare again. I just want to get her and I off on the right foot.

Thanks for the help. You are right about one thing I used to baby her a lot because I felt sorry for her with what she came out of when I first got her. I know that I hindered her a lot in the beginning but hopefully we can get past this and move on and get her going right.

I am not even riding her now I am dealing with her off of the ground. You and Zoel are tight I need her respect on the ground before I can ask for it on her back. So I have started her right at the basics again and am trying to get in my mind that it doesn't matter what happened the last 18 months. I can't undo what was done I can only move forward from here.

[TheBadLands]

That's really great.

As good as she seems to be under saddle, that will be a breeze (and most likely even better :cowboy:) when you fix the ground issues.

Just know that, since you started her under saddle, you did something right, right?

I will say one more thing about something you just said:

I don't want to baby her and I know that I also will not be able to fight her if she doesn't want to be held or anything. I just want to start a fresh with her and get her going right again.


If she pulls away, or is not able to be controlled in a spook, or you ever feel like it has to be a "physical fight" in the effect of establishing who is the stronger party (which, you already know.. the horse will win that one) I would work on tying first.

If you tie her safely and let her pitch a fit, she'll learn fast that she isn't going to win over a tree.

Aside from tying, work with her on a longer line and when introducing something new to her, something as simple as using a large tree for leverage just in case will do wonders.

Example:

Find a sturdy tree free of debris on all sides. If she is facing you, the tree needs to be to your left. Hold your line where you normally would facing her, use the slack of the long line and have it around the tree and in your hand, also. Not wrapping it, just a set up that makes a triangle of you, the tree then the horse. This way, if she were to bolt, you can let go the part of the line closest to her and use the side of the line left over (that is around the tree) and hold fast there. It gives you leverage and strength you would not normally have.

It worked for me with some major in hand fighters. It's not restraining and effectively gets the idea across to them that there is a possibility you're going to win a tug-o-war.

ETA: Here's my stupid drawing lol

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1337&pictureid=19092&thumb=1 (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/album.php?albumid=1337&pictureid=19092)

[CaddoCinnamon]

Thanks Badlands. I may have to use it when I introduce a bath to her. I am not concentrating on that right now but the time will come when I need to bath her and I need her good to stand there. Just worked her some more doing what I did this morning she did good there just allowed me to walk right up and start brushing her. I am making my sessions short one because of how hot it is and 2 just to let her know that when she sees me nothing bad happens only pleasant things like being groomed. I also just want her to know that just because she sees me doesn't necessarily mean that she is going to be worked either. I mainly went down to check waters and give more hay out.

We are making progress slow. It is there.

Thanks for all of the help guys. I really appreciate everything that has been said.

[CaddoCinnamon]

Thanks for the drawing. It helps me out to see something physical. I appreciate your help.