Update on the "herding" game

[Fork]

I almost didn't go out today. It was pouring rain in the morning, but it let off and cleared by 12.

As soon as I got to his field, my plans kind of changed. I could barely walk in the mud, but I thought I'd use it to my advantage. He knew if he had to run, it was a lot of effort. He outsmarted me within 15 minutes. As soon as I chased him, he'd hide between the other horses. He'd run under their necks, crowd himself between 4 of them and turn around with his butt facing me. I would attempt to come around him or I'd make him run.

The breaking point was when he ran into a giant puddle. He turned his butt to me and frolicked, pawed, and cantered through the water. I would have gone after him, but my rubber boots were a little too short.

I should also mention that Mitch is the alpha male. Despite being a pony in a field with 17hh horses, he comes out on top and he loves his buddies.

Upon complaining to my barn manager, she suggested that we give him individual turnout for the summer. He's better to catch when he's alone, but he's not even perfect then. I have caught him twice (with immense difficulty) with one other horse in the field. What are your opinions? Do you think he would benefit from being separated for a while?

[Palogal]

Yes, they're always easier to catch alone and preferably in a smallish pasture.

[Fork]

Yes, they're always easier to catch alone and preferably in a smallish pasture.Is it possible that he'll revert to being buddy sour after being reintroduced to the herd?

[WashingtonBay]

All horses will tend to get buddy sour when in a herd, particularly if they're not often asked to leave the herd.

He should be better alone than he is with a group in a small area. I'd put him in the smallest paddock they've got, and feed him everything by hand for awhile, you provide everything he needs.

[Fork]

All horses will tend to get buddy sour when in a herd, particularly if they're not often asked to leave the herd.

He should be better alone than he is with a group in a small area. I'd put him in the smallest paddock they've got, and feed him everything by hand for awhile, you provide everything he needs.Sounds like a good idea. :)

I'm not living up there for another 6 weeks, but my BO has graciously offered to work him through this. At the same time, one of the workers at the barn goes out every few days and tries to catch him.

[Palogal]

Is it possible that he'll revert to being buddy sour after being reintroduced to the herd?

If you allow him too. If you continue to hold your place as alpha, he shouldn't.

[Fork]

If you allow him too. If you continue to hold your place as alpha, he shouldn't.He doesn't see me as alpha yet. :innocent: Despite my attempts at join up, feeding treats, grazing and grooming.

I can hope that if my BO decides to go ahead with the individual turnout (when she rearranges a few fields), he will be different.

[Horseaholic]

I would not allow him to turn his butt to you. period. it's dangerous and only allows him to disrespect you.

He keeps controlling the game.. I would have gotten muddy and tired, regardless. I don't mean to give you a hard time I just feel like I always read how you try something and it ends up with him on top time after time... :/ I hope you get his card soon... :)

[mare]

I do the herding thing with groups of horses, too. It doesn't sound like you have time to do it consistantly, so it doesn't matter. If you have an option for solo turnout when you want to ride use it.

[Horseaholic]

I've never done the "herding" thing before because thank goodness Prado comes to me and puts his head into the halter himself basically but I would have moved everyone off if he was finding comfort in them.

[Fork]

I've never done the "herding" thing before because thank goodness Prado comes to me and puts his head into the halter himself basically but I would have moved everyone off if he was finding comfort in them.I've never encountered this with my own horse. It's hard to get him away from his friends in a muddy 1-2 acre field. :p

I'm starting to think I really should have carried a lunge whip or two instead of a long lead rope.

I would not allow him to turn his butt to you. period. it's dangerous and only allows him to disrespect you.What do I do?

Every time he turned his butt to me, I'd send him off and I'd chase him away from his friends. He'd turn his back to me as soon as he stopped running. The field was so mucky that walking after him even 10 feet was hard.

I do understand your concern, and thank you for pointing that out. :)

[Palogal]

No offense intended, it's late, I have a sick child...lol. Stop begging this horse to be nice to you. Can the treats and show him you are in charge. Treats should not be used as bribes IMO. I feed my horses treats just because, not because I want something, or because they've done something. I don't even train abused or shy horses with treats. The alpha mare doesn't have carrots in her pocket. She takes the role and keeps it right? So establish a leadership role and save the treats for some random moment you fee like giving them. When you get him in his small pasture move his feet. Not running him around all nutso, but move his feet, change directions, back him up, move him over whatever but show him that YOU are in charge. Do it with the halter for a week or two and then do it without the halter and show him that you will move him. Reward with rest and scratches, not food. Just MO of course ;)

[Horseaholic]

I would def carry a lunge whip :) I'd whack him on his butt when he turned it toward me too but idk how safe that would be for you with him because he's really got no respect whatsoever (so therefore may kick out). Maybe someone can add a suggestion? I'm not savvy on the herding thing, like I said before, so I'm not sure if this is something you'd want to do during an exercise like this.

For me, when Prado turns his butt to me on occasion he gets a whack and walks off like oh...I guess I shouldn't do that...then I calmly walk up to him and halter and thats that. If he wasn't the alpha and he turned his butt to the alpha he'd get kicked or bit right? So therefore he gets a swift correction from you, the alpha mare.

[Palogal]

I've never encountered this with my own horse. It's hard to get him away from his friends in a muddy 1-2 acre field. :p

I'm starting to think I really should have carried a lunge whip or two instead of a long lead rope.

What do I do?

Every time he turned his butt to me, I'd send him off and I'd chase him away from his friends. He'd turn his back to me as soon as he stopped running. The field was so mucky that walking after him even 10 feet was hard.

I do understand your concern, and thank you for pointing that out. :)

Do some round pen or lunge line work with him and teach him respect. It's not the turning of the butt that's the problem, it's the disrespect he has for you that makes him think that turning his butt to you is acceptable.

[Palogal]

I would def carry a lunge whip :) I'd whack him on his butt when he turned it toward me too but idk how safe that would be for you with him because he's really got no respect whatsoever. Maybe someone can add a suggestion? I'm not savvy on the herding thing, like I said before, so I'm not sure if this is something you'd want to do during an exercise like this.

I don't think I'd go there. I don't like the idea of smacking a horse with a whip when I'm looking down both barrels, ya know? A horse that had respect would not do that to begin with.

[Equine_Woman]

He doesn't see me as alpha yet. :innocent: Despite my attempts at join up, feeding treats, grazing and grooming.



That's not how an alpha horses establishes his dominance. You can't 'friend' him into respecting you. I'd spend lots of time making him move in a round pen, not just for joining up. Keep it up though! You'll get him figured out I know it!! He's lucky to have you!!!

[Horseaholic]

I don't think I'd go there. I don't like the idea of smacking a horse with a whip when I'm looking down both barrels, ya know? A horse that had respect would not do that to begin with.

yea, that's why I said Idk if I'd do that with him having all the issues she's got with him. :)

[Fork]

No offense intended, it's late, I have a sick child...lol. Stop begging this horse to be nice to you. Can the treats and show him you are in charge. Treats should not be used as bribes IMO. I feed my horses treats just because, not because I want something, or because they've done something. I don't even train abused or shy horses with treats. The alpha mare doesn't have carrots in her pocket. She takes the role and keeps it right? So establish a leadership role and save the treats for some random moment you fee like giving them. When you get him in his small pasture move his feet. Not running him around all nutso, but move his feet, change directions, back him up, move him over whatever but show him that YOU are in charge. Do it with the halter for a week or two and then do it without the halter and show him that you will move him. Reward with rest and scratches, not food. Just MO of course ;)Each time I'm tough with him, we fly back 10 steps. If I'm too nice, he walks all over me. There's no happy medium. :doh::doh:

If I have treats, he will come closer to me. If I don't, he figures there's no reason to be around me. That is why I use them. Rested or not, I can't touch him anywhere without him backing off unless he's in a round pen or stall. Last time I brought him into the round pen, I stood there and touched him all over without a lead rope or any form of restraint. He didn't move a muscle and seemed to enjoy the attention. That is what I want to be able to do, without treats and without the constant need to "be nice so he'll like me."

He was never abused, but he was definitely never imprinted at birth. Thank you for your opinion though. I appreciate the opinions and support I've been getting, because I'm not what manner to approach him in.

I know it sounds like I'm going in circles. :(

[WashingtonBay]

I think chasing and the whip seems like the wrong approach for him, are we at all sure what his background really was? Isn't he pretty much just unhandled? I'd use more mustang gentling methods than 'get respect' methods (and I'd read up or talk to someone who has done just that), and if that means him living in a round pen till he's catchable, that's what I'd do. I think for now he earns time out of the round pen when he's with you, on a line, just moving and walking with you at first. You don't have to pet him and love on him and spoil him, just lead and spend time, and expect him to go where you go.

[Kara]

If he flys back 10 steps you go forward half and let him meet you in the middle.

Might take all day but chasing him with a whip isn't going to help.

[zoel_222]

I would not allow him to turn his butt to you. period. it's dangerous and only allows him to disrespect you.

He keeps controlling the game.. I would have gotten muddy and tired, regardless. I don't mean to give you a hard time I just feel like I always read how you try something and it ends up with him on top time after time... :/ I hope you get his card soon... :)

I totally agree. When he runs into the herd, you're supposed to keep pushing him. Make the whole herd run if you have to. I was worried that would happen. If you attempt it, but don't follow through it makes things even worse for you because he's learned once again that he's boss and he doesn't have to be caught if he acts aggressively and dominate towards you.

I do the herding thing with groups of horses, too. It doesn't sound like you have time to do it consistantly, so it doesn't matter. If you have an option for solo turnout when you want to ride use it.

Also agree here. It doesn't sound like you do have the time or drive to work this problem consistently so I'd opt for a small single turnout.

All horses will tend to get buddy sour when in a herd, particularly if they're not often asked to leave the herd.

He should be better alone than he is with a group in a small area. I'd put him in the smallest paddock they've got, and feed him everything by hand for awhile, you provide everything he needs.

That's sounds like a good idea.

[Fork]

Also agree here. It doesn't sound like you do have the time or drive to work this problem consistently so I'd opt for a small single turnout.More like, I lack the proximity to the barn for now. :p I used to go out every other day.

@WB: That sounds like a plan. I really don't think he was abused. Are there any good books that I could read up on?

[Palogal]

Look up CA and is books on training for respect, or whatever his cute little titles are. He has a book that talks about catching although the exact title I'm not sure at the moment.

[ownedby7horses]

http://www.montyroberts.com/ju_about.html

I'd definitly keep him seperated and if you have access to a round pen, utalize that tool! Never back away though, if you take a step backwards, he'll see that as insecurity (in my opinion) and that puts him a level up everytime you back away from him. Make him move, no matter what. Good luck!

[Palogal]

Ok so I have one mare right now that was pretty much unhandled and she treated me much like Mitch treats you when I first started with her. If I walked up to her she would run away. She didn't want anything to do with me. So...here's what I did.

I put her in a smallish area by baitng her with one of her easy to catch friends and then kicked her buddy out :) , probably the size of a small arena, and approached her with nothing in my hands. I approached and when she ran, I let her run and I didn't move while she ran. When she stopped, I slowly walked in her direction (not directly at her) and if she started to run, I stopped. It took me an HOUR the first day, but I could approach her several times and halter her the last time I approached her. I was making the point that it was okay to let me walk toward her and nothing bad was going to happen. I was also teaching her that she was going to be caught, but I would wait until she was ready. On the day it took me an hour to catch her, I haltered her, scratched on her and let her go. The next day it took me 45, then 15, and now she will pretend she doesn't like me and run away once and then she'll turn around and walk back to me. She puts her nose in the halter and we go work.

The important parts of this are a small space, time and no other horses.

[Tiz]

This method works, but only if you are determined to finish what you start. If you aren't, just move on to something else, because failure only reinforces his bad behavior.

When he runs off you pressure him. When he stops, you stop and back up a few steps. After a few moments, if he doesn't look at you, then push him off again. If he does look at you, back up again, and let him rest. When he looks away, push him off. Eventually, he will understand that stopping and facing you makes the pressure go away. Notice his smallest effort, and stop and back away a bit without fail. Don't passively follow him around, and don't run him around with a whip cracking. Just put a "You need to move" thought in your head with body language to match. When you reward his stops, breathe and relax.

If you do this right, he'll draw to you when you back away. Since he's such a confirmed butthead about being caught, the first time he came up to me, I wouldn't even try to touch him. A few nice words and walk away.

Anyway, as I said, don't start this project if you don't have the time or patience to finish.