horse tried to throw me

[lacyloo]

well im back again...

This morning on my trail ride, I tried to bump her up to a lope and she spazzed out.
She reared and gave about 10 seconds worth of bucking. But somehow I manged to stay on. But I think i'v pinched a nerve in my lower back because its all numb and it hurts when I move around.

so how do I go about disiplining her? I cant do anything right now because of my back. But she is tied to her"thinking tree". should I leave her there for a few hours?/days?

[Remali]

I don't think tying a horse up to a tree, or post, or whatever, for any length of time is going to help at all....horses don't know they are being punished or what they did wrong. And by tying her up for a long time she will only get more frustrated and be more of a handful for you.

Have you made sure her bit didn't pinch her or a tooth isn't sore? Most horses rear from pain. Also, if she is bucking, make sure she doesn't have a sore back and her tack fits OK. Check and see if she may have been stung, the bees get pretty nasty before it gets cold out.

If that isn't it, I would start from ground one....start with ground work and training all over again. I would go back to working with her again, and see what sets her off and why.

I truly hope you were joking about leaving her tied to a tree that long....that is pretty severe and rather cruel. Also, if you are going to discipline an animal you have to do it within microseconds of what they did wrong, otherwise they have no idea what they are being corrected for.

[lacyloo]

ummm actually I do try her to the tree/post, i'v always done it after ground work lessons (clinton anderson does it too).. he said it give the horse time to think about what they have just done/learned. I Have had success with it. But i have never tied her longer than an hour.

And I use a hackamore with her. I just realised I didn't specify in my post, what she was doing when she was about to buck.. she has a bad habit of trying to graze on the trail. So when she but her head down this morning,I pulled it back up with alot of force and thats when she spazzed out.
I just got back from lunging her and working on some ground work. I had stoped lunging her for about a month now and I think im going to start back lunging her everday again. Today she was FULL of energy, she was bucking and making this snortting sound while I was lunging. she was also tossing her head alot.

[Harleys Owner]

Has she bucked before, or is the first/only time this has happened?

Leaving a horse tied for several hours saddled is a good way to teach patience, make them less hyper.

If this is not the first time she has done this, I'd saddle her, leave her tied for several hours then, I'd put her on a lunge line, ask for the lope and at any indication that she is going to buck, give her a good firm quick pull, and then back her up a good long ways, then start her again with no pause in between your commands. Switch directions you are lunging often, only go one or two circles each way before switching. This gets her attention on paying attention to your commands.

When you do ride again, hopefully it will be soon, do a lot of long trotting before asking for the lope, but change gaits often including complete whoa's and back ups. be ready for any indication of a buck, stop and back her up a good long ways, then immediately ask for a forward command. Don't give her a lot of time to think. Change gaits often. If she lopes without a buck drop back to the walk or trot after just a few strides. Slowly increase the length of time you keep her loping.

[Remali]

Well, I don't agree with tying a horse up like that....I've never seen it do anyone any good....
but to each their own, I guess if it works for you.... but horses don't "think" about what they did in the sense like we do.....

[Harleys Owner]

she was bucking and making this snortting sound while I was lunging. she was also tossing her head alot.

Be sure that when you lunge her, you make her stop quickly with strong pulls on the line, then back her up a good ways. The more she bucks on the line the better she will get at it.

[Harleys Owner]

Well, I don't agree with tying a horse up like that....I've never seen it do anyone any good....
but to each their own, I guess if it works for you.... but horses don't "think" about what they did in the sense like we do.....

I've always tied my horses and left them for at least 15 minutes up to several hours before and after riding them. I've found it makes a big difference in how they behave.

[lacyloo]

Well im glad someone else does this, I was starting to sound like a animal abuser :rolleyes:

[Cat]

The fact that you were able to ride it out and keep going is going to teach her that pulling such silliness isn't going to get you off. That right there is a big thing.

However, I do agree with what others have said - make sure there are no pain issues.

[lacyloo]

Has she bucked before, or is the first/only time this has happened?

Leaving a horse tied for several hours saddled is a good way to teach patience, make them less hyper.

If this is not the first time she has done this, I'd saddle her, leave her tied for several hours then, I'd put her on a lunge line, ask for the lope and at any indication that she is going to buck, give her a good firm quick pull, and then back her up a good long ways, then start her again with no pause in between your commands. Switch directions you are lunging often, only go one or two circles each way before switching. This gets her attention on paying attention to your commands.

When you do ride again, hopefully it will be soon, do a lot of long trotting before asking for the lope, but change gaits often including complete whoa's and back ups. be ready for any indication of a buck, stop and back her up a good long ways, then immediately ask for a forward command. Don't give her a lot of time to think. Change gaits often. If she lopes without a buck drop back to the walk or trot after just a few strides. Slowly increase the length of time you keep her loping.


she has a bad tendency to buck when she is lopeing, She isnt in any pain but i think its a lazy issue.

[Harleys Owner]

Well im glad someone else does this, I was starting to sound like a animal abuser :rolleyes:

It's always been the best tool in my arsenal for a misbehaving horse:) I've never been able to figure out why some think it cruel. It's not like it hurts them or anything. I don't think I agree that they "think" :) but whatever it does, it really makes them more manageable, IMO.

[Harleys Owner]

From one of your posts is sounds like she does it on the lunge line, correct it there for your safety. Stop it at the first sign, and back her up aggressively.

When riding, tire her out a bit with long trotting. Once she seems calm, then ask for the lope, but don't go for long distances, even if she is loping nicely. Change her up often:

walk, trot, stop, back, lope, walk, lope, trot, stop, back, lope, trot....short short distances in each gait. And if it makes any difference:), I learned this approach from a Clinton Anderson clinic, and it really helps. It doesn't give them time to "think" :), and they focus more on you then on thinking (there's that word again:) ) about misbehaving.

[Mandzanita]

I agree with you Remali...tying them to a tree to think about what they have done (in regarding to the acting up on the trail) doesn't make much sense. An immediate correction seconds after the problem is the only way to let the horse know that THAT particular episode was not acceptable. If you've finihsed the ride and then tie to the tree they have no idea that it's even a punishment. They don't think logically like that...

However, tying to a tree can be pretty darn useful in other instances...as Harley's owner said...great way to teach patience while tied. Especially for young horses during training.

[Harleys Owner]

I do agree that tying this horse to a tree, is not discipline for the bucking episode. But it will, IMO, give the horse some discipline and will make him more manageable when he is being lunged or ridden.

[Remali]

Yup, I agree with that Mandzanita....if you are teaching a horse to tie, then it works great....but to teach them anything beyond standing quiet while tied.... a horse doesn't think like a human.....they aren't going to reflect on what they did two hours ago..... If you want to correct them you must do it immediately after they misbehave.

[Cat]

I don't know about tying for correctional purposes, but it does teach patience and is a wonderful thing that helps from trailering to tying up for a break on the trails, etc. Just a good thing for any horse to know and more than 5-10 minutes most people do.

[Mandzanita]

I don't know about tying for correctional purposes, but it does teach patience and is a wonderful thing that helps from trailering to tying up for a break on the trails, etc. Just a good thing for any horse to know and more than 5-10 minutes most people do.

Exactly...it's a great thing to add to any horse's training program. Nothing better than a horse that can be trusted to stand tied for hours. I remember Palogal had a quote in her siggy about a tree being the worlds best trainer...

It just doesn't make sense as a disciplinarian action, especially in the situation posted.

[Palogal]

with a horse the punishment has to be instant and has to fit the crime. although tying is great and does teach the horse a good bit of patience not to mention reinforce halter breaking it is not an appropriate punishment for bucking.

I would go back to the round pen and lunge. If she bucks in the round pen, downward transition to the trot and ask again, re-do the transition until it's correct and then move on. I'd tie her when I was done, it's a good way to give the horse a moment to think before turning her out to be a horse again.

However IMO, tying after a bucking incident is not enough. Energy is wonderful, but not an excuse for bad behavior under saddle.

AND YES, my signature said. "A strong tree is the best trainer. It works all day without a break, release and tension are perfect and I don't have to pay it."

[lacyloo]

ok guys i get the point, I understand now that it isnt a proper punishment for bucking.
I will start back with the ground work training and go from there.

[vicklynn]

I dont know how long we left the horses tied up at Chris Cox' ranch. While in class, we would tie them, go center and talk, go to the lunch room, ect. It does teach them patience. I can tie my horses for awhile, all they do is look for me. I dont teach them that if they are bad that they are going to tie, they forget what the heck that was about. When actions happen, correction needs to come ASAP, and I dont mean minutes down the road. As far as why she reared, I have NO clue, but I hope you fix the issue. That sudden hard jerk could of been an issue. When on a trail with City, I dont like him grazing. I dont fight his head, but my popper sure gets a good work out, shoulder or butt. I try to stay off his head.
I sure hope your back is ok, sounds like you may need to see a chiro for your back. I get the same way when mine goes out, ouchy mamma. A chiro can relieve that pain.

[Horserider]

I don't think tying a horse up to a tree, or post, or whatever, for any length of time is going to help at all....horses don't know they are being punished or what they did wrong. And by tying her up for a long time she will only get more frustrated and be more of a handful for you.

Have you made sure her bit didn't pinch her or a tooth isn't sore? Most horses rear from pain. Also, if she is bucking, make sure she doesn't have a sore back and her tack fits OK. Check and see if she may have been stung, the bees get pretty nasty before it gets cold out.

If that isn't it, I would start from ground one....start with ground work and training all over again. I would go back to working with her again, and see what sets her off and why.

I truly hope you were joking about leaving her tied to a tree that long....that is pretty severe and rather cruel. Also, if you are going to discipline an animal you have to do it within microseconds of what they did wrong, otherwise they have no idea what they are being corrected for.

Ditto. I agree 100% with everything Remali said. As for the Clinton Anderson comment I didn't think I'd ever hear him doing something I didn't agree with, but this would be the first time.

And have you ever heard of the 3-second rule? If you don't discipline a horse within 3 seconds the action occured you should just let it go? Not saying you should just let this go, but you shouldn't punish a horse by tying it to a tree for any length of time. They won't associate the standing tied for hours with the action.

[WashingtonBay]

Tying to a patience post or a tree is not about 'punishment'. It's about discipline, patience and submission. While it doesn't directly correct any particular behavior, it gets in the horse's head that they have to submit to their circumstance, and the person controlling that circumstance and ultimately releasing them from it, is you.

It's a very passive way of setting it up in the horse's mind that they are not in charge, and puts them in a better frame of mind to accept that they are working.

[rocknK]

It also gets them used to standing around quietly. Which for some horses is very hard. I call it the neutral or parked gear. Its just as important as the other speeds.:cowboy:

[FlitterBug]

She wouldn't be bucking out of laziness, bucking takes a lot of energy.

I don't believe the solution to this problem is punishment rather than figuring out why the horse bucked in the first place. Pain? Confusion? Balance issues? Any of these could lead to bucking. I have one horse that will crow hop 3 times when asked to canter if she is wearing a saddle that is too tight or if her back is out. This is fine with me and I do not discipline her for it, she is basically letting me know something is wrong. I fix the problem, and she goes back to a nice, smooth canter transition. I have another horse that was cowboyed. I do have the faith in this horse that no matter what the situation is, he will not buck and he will not rear. This horse is also borderline lame and I can only use him for beginner lessons and trail rides. He stayed quiet about his pain and his body paid the price. Both of these horses described are the same age. The first horse is completely sound and in great physical shape, the second is on joint supplements and limited in the activities he can do. It may not be fun, but I prefer that my horse let me know when something is wrong.

If it is a green horse, it could also be a breach in training. A horse that is bucking can be confused and is usually a horse that lacks forward movement. Your horse is bouncing around in the scales from the description of rearing to bucking. It has not balanced between the flight and fight defenses. Ground work would definately help with this, as would slower undersaddle work. Good luck.

[shewasmyshadow]

Tying to a patience post or a tree is not about 'punishment'. It's about discipline, patience and submission. While it doesn't directly correct any particular behavior, it gets in the horse's head that they have to submit to their circumstance, and the person controlling that circumstance and ultimately releasing them from it, is you.

It's a very passive way of setting it up in the horse's mind that they are not in charge, and puts them in a better frame of mind to accept that they are working.

I have to agree. It worked wonders with my mare who would buck when she thought she was in charge of when we rode and when we didn't. The post didn't have emotions or feelings it just held her still and let her think about the saddle being on top of her. If I didn't give her the "think time" she would explode. If I gave her 5-10 minutes to think while I putz around the barn she was a different horse.

Lunging and tying, IMHO, are not means of tiring a horse out, but a means of putting them in the correct mindset. :)

[Suzi]

It also sounds like she may have quite abit of excess energy. Is she getting too much grain?

[Palogal]

It also sounds like she may have quite abit of excess energy. Is she getting too much grain?


Good point. Sometimes young horses are overfed...

[FredRock]

Fred will do that in the winter if I kiss and ask for a canter, he bucks. No kiss, no buck. Simple fix for me.

Has it been windy and chilly by you. (or chillier than normal?) Did you work her before asking for the lope, or was she "fresh?" When exactly did you pull her head up, right before she reared? She might have just reared in response to the pulling. Could she have spooked at something?

If this is a consistent problem then going back to lunging and correcting it there will be a big help. Once she gets the idea that bucking is bad on the ground then it should translate to undersaddle. As far as disciplining undersaddle, I pull Fred down and long trot the bejeezus out of him before asking again. Another time he did a huge buck and got smacked with the crop, didn't do it for a while after that. As long as whatever you do is quick and firm it should be recorded as a punishment by the horse.

As far as tying for discipline, unless you're trying to fix a problem dealing with tying I don't think it does much. If the horse's head is tied high it just makes them tired because they can't put their heads down. Fred's old owners tied him up overnight at horse shows so he was calmer during the first Halter classes.

[medicine hat]

"Another time he did a huge buck and got smacked with the crop, "

just be ready for him to launch forward if you use this approach!

[luvs2ride1979]

I would like to say that I think tieing to a tree or post is fine for teaching a horse patience and how to tie/stand, and to get them to understand that YOU are the boss, but I do not think that it is a good punishment. If you want to punish a horse for a specific behavior, you have to do so DURING the unwanted act.

For bucking, I would first look at pain issues: saddle fit, saddle placement (the tree should be BEHIND the horse's shoulders), girth material type, girth placement, feet/legs, and finally chiropractic (withers, back, hips).

If pain is not the issue, then I would go back to ground work. Do lots and LOTS of canter transitions on the lunge line or in the round pen. Go both ways and keep them up until she's quiet for 1-2 transitions in each direction, praising her a ton for her effort, then quit for the day.

Once she's consistent on the ground, work her in the saddle on medium sized circles in your arena or pasture. If she starts bucking, pull her head around to your knee SHARPLY and spin her like a top until she quits bucking. Ask her to stand quietly, praise her, and ask again. Rinse and repeat until she'll take one good canter transition, praise like crazy, and quit for the day. Keep working her in the arena or pasture until she'll give you good, consistent transitions both ways. THEN try her on the trail again.

Also, a lazy horse won't buck. Trust me, I have one and have ridden a few. A lazy horse will give a little crow hop and then stop, or just stop. A horse that bucks is either in pain or has holes in their training. It's your job to figure out which one it is and fix it.

I agree with pulling her off grain and giving her more turn out time. Excess energy can cause negative behavioral issues quite quickly!

[mustangluver]

Sounds to me like a temper tantrum, or pain. You rode it out and that was awesome, and that was your key time to address the behavior. John Lyons taught the 3 second kill, I have used that and it works like a dream...

I either ride them hard or lounge them hard, by hard I mean they get a work out.. bucking = more work.

I do have to say least your horse ties :p. My mustang ground ties like a dream I can leave her where I want her and she stays 98% of the time. Attach her and she breaks whatever she has, its a work in progress.

[HoustonFarrier]

Well, I don't agree with tying a horse up like that....I've never seen it do anyone any good....


Come over to my place, and watch as I harness up my horses...they stand WHEREVER I leave them. They learned fron standing tied to the "patience post".

Steve

[Remali]

Well, all of my horses stood tied up just fine....I never had to use any kind of "patience post" with them.
In fact, my Arabian mare Kara, used to ground tie like a dream! :)

[HoustonFarrier]

Well, all of my horses stood tied up just fine....I never had to use any kind of "patience post" with them.
In fact, my Arabian mare Kara, used to ground tie like a dream! :)

No doubt...there are many ways to teach a horse to stand quietly.....tying to a post DOES work, which is the point I was making.

Steve

[Miracle Whip]

I don't know what kind of hackamore you were using but if they are anything like what I had when I was a kid, pulling back pretty hard will make the horse go over BACKWARDS... hackamores require a well broke horse and a well trained rider. Go back to a snaffle is my advise. The tree is fine, it will teach her patience but won't stop any bucking issues. That is generally related to pain, respect, or training.

Remali - someone worked with Kara no doubt to ground tie. The tree is good, especially for spoiled brat geldings like my husband's horse. I don't leave him tied up all day but I do tie him up sometimes.

[lacyloo]

Thanks for the replys, I talked to a lady that does the horse 4h club with some kids in town and I told her my situation. And she said it could be that she isnt fit to canter and she is off balance. So I have been trotting figure 8's the last few days and not lopeing. And she hasn't bucked since.. Also I feed her a coffee can full of pellets and 4 flakes of hay a day. ((she is off grass right now)).

She said that is too much for a 800 pound horse. So how much should I feed her? she isn't fat.

Also next time I tack her up I will get a pic and you can tell me if the saddle properly fits.

[lacyloo]

http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/lacy_94/farasconfo109.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/lacy_94/farasconfo110.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/lacy_94/farasconfo112.jpg
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/lacy_94/farasconfo106.jpg
hope this works

[Mandzanita]

I think that your horse is in fine shape (from the pics) and if that is what you've been feeding and she looks the way she does, I don't see a real good reason to change it. She may have a little hay belly but not to the point of fat. If it aint broke, why fix it type of thing. What kind of pellets and what kind of hay are you feeding?

As far as the saddle goes, I don't think the fit looks too bad at all. I mean I can only say that looking at pics. The pad looks a little big for the saddle is all I see. It comes down pretty low and it may end up bugging her in the loin or hip area.

[lacyloo]

Thanks, I forgot to add. That i know the saddle pad doesn't fit. I got it used, from a friend. But Im getting a new on for christmas :)

[Mandzanita]

No prob, if you'd like more responses about the feeding or tack fit I'd suggest making separate threads about each and you'll get a lot more feedback :) Very cute horse by the way, BEAUTIFUL mane!

[cowgirlup@idaho]

Every trainer I've ever known has tied horses up before and after riding for a minimum of 1 hour, for all of the above mentioned reasons except "punishment". I don't think the op tied her horse up for punishment, she wanted the horse to think. I'll bet the horse thought about the pecking order and who really was on top! :p

Vicklynn! you got to ride with Chris Cox! I'm jealous! you lucky dog!

[kds]

Well, I don't agree with tying a horse up like that....I've never seen it do anyone any good....
but to each their own, I guess if it works for you.... but horses don't "think" about what they did in the sense like we do.....


i agree. they don't stand there and think "oh i'm tied because i bucked, i guess i shouldn't do that anymore." i doubt they think anything of being tied, other then feelings of thirst or hunger. i think it would be pointless and i just don't like the idea of leaving a horse tied or any of that. i think YOU should work with her, not leave her alone after she does something bad. hope this helps!

[Buckpoco]

My trainer always says to tie them up for a hour at a time to teach patience. Also, when you get back from a ride tie them up for a while, so they don't want to rush home to eat. I know his horses are very patient and don't act up when tied up.