Earthlings Movie

[JackieB]

There is a documentary on Youtube titled Earthlings that I'm watching. It extremely graphically depicts the worst of the ways humans treat animals for many reasons (fashion, food, disregard), but especially for the sake of making/saving money.

I'm not typically interested in watching programs like this because they are so upsetting and I usually don't think there's anything to be gained by me. I'm very respectful of animals already.

But I have decided to watch this documentary and I'm up to Part 7 of 10. It has had a profound effect on me. I've pretty much decided that I'm going to be vegan except for animals I kill myself. I fish a lot and I wouldn't hesitate to hunt if I felt like it. I just don't trust others to demonstrate the degree of respect and compassion that I feel is so important.

Although the Earthlings movie clearly comes from an animal rights perspective, it's all genuine documentary footage. And while I'm sure that industry advocates would complain that the movie highlights isolated incidents, the truth is that these violations of human decency are probably more common than we think. They usually are.

Ending my consumption of leather is probably the biggest change I'm making. I'm already mostly vegetarian otherwise. I'm not getting rid of anything I own that's leather, but I'm not buying new products made of leather. Not only because of how many cattle are treated before they die, but because of the environmental impact of the chemicals used to make leather.

I'm not suggesting that you watch Earthlings, though. Decide on your own. And you have to be 18 to watch at least one segment I've come across. The whole series is horribly graphic and unless you think it might somehow impact you positively (as I feel it has for me), then there's just no point in making yourself miserable. I'm a cheerful person as you know, and I don't advocate people making themselves unhappy if it doesn't serve a purpose.

Here is the link to the Earthlings trailer if you do wish to see the documentary. YouTube- Earthlings - Trailer

[Rie]

The thing about earthlings and other ARA (animal rights activists) movies is the fact they are made SOLELY to make you become a veg*n. The incidents depicted in these movies is often outdated (By MANY MANY years.) which makes the treatment in them utterly illegal and completely unprofessional. The goal of the dairy, meat and egg industries -- as well as leather and other animal products-- is to make Money. Yes with a capital M. If farmers abused their cattle on a regular basis all they are doing is burning dollars they would be making off that animal. What is the point in that?
Yes animal abuse in agriculture does happen, but there are laws in place against it for a reason. To blame all agriculture for the faults of a few bad apples is similar to saying because one babysitter hurts a child that ALL babysitters hurt children. The logic behind it is very flawed.

Leather is now made more environmentally safe than it used to be, the reason behind the change is because the chemicals they used to use were harmful to humans as well as the environment. Now that other ways are being used leather is one of the best "green" options out there. From my experience leather tends to last much much longer than the plastic based alternatives, and the oil used to make plastic is much worse than the few chemicals used to tan leather.

Another misconception people have about the lives of cattle is that they are restricted to feedlots for their entire lives until they are slaughtered. I'm not sure if you are aware of it or not, but cattle are only moved to feedlots during their last few months. The rest of the time they are on a free range, well fed and left to just be cattle.

The goals of ARA's are not what they want you to think, they often do not care about the animals they show you. PETA one of the most widely known animal rights groups has killed THOUSANDS of animals that were perfectly fine and ready to be adopted. Their reason for killing them? "To prevent any future harm that might fall upon them."
If I remember correctly just eight animals were adopted from the peta shelter in '09 -- out of the 2,366 it took in. They do NOT help animals. :nono:

Well I'm gonna end my 'little' post here. Thank you if you've actually read all of this.

[mare]

JackieB, I appreciate and agree with your position that animals be treated well and when killed should be done quickly, respectfully and humbly. Being involved in the cattle and horse industry I advocate that.

But I also agree with Rie about the motives of ARAs with the addition that at the top it is mostly about the money to be made by promoting animal rights, as opposed to animal welfare.

Going vegan, while you are welcome to do that, adds its own problems to the earth too. Synthetics have toxic byproducts. Getting basic healthcare like vaccinations and simple blood screens makes one a participant in chemical waste.

Life on this little ball of dirt and water isn't perfect, never will be, regardless of whether there are humans on it or not. Do what you want, but your not saving the planet by it.

[Buckpoco]

Lots of good points here. I can't watch the video, I know it will make me sick. Some years ago I watched a clip (while surfing) about how they kill dogs and cats in Korea. It was weeks and weeks until I stopped being upset and feeling nauseous...so, I won't watch the video.
I didn't know that about the ARA...money, of course...how could I be so dumb.
I for one have tried to be vegan and can't, period. My body needs meat. So...I'm just glad that we have, as stated above, made some strides in showing more compassion towards animals.

[Tiz]

Beware of films designed to horrify and direct your emotions. Rarely, if ever, can you trust anything that's rooted in manipulation.

[natisha]

I can't watch the movie either but I know what it shows. I like the IDEA of not using animal products & I admire those who can do it if done safely. I have a 2 friends who are vegan, they are thin but always sickly, kind of in slow motion. Not everyone is like them of course.
So I do my part by every so often saving a sheep!!! That keeps my guilt at bay.

[JackieB]

Thank you if you've actually read all of this.

I read it all. Thanks for the perspective.

While Earthlings has brought on a sort of "tipping point" for me, I have been headed in this direction for a long time, based on my own personal experience. For example, there are a couple of large dairy farms within two miles of my house. The cattle on them never, ever leave their barn, except to go to slaughter. There isn't even a pasture to let them out in anymore. That just strikes me as wrong. When I was growing up, dairy cattle came in for milking twice a day and spent the rest of the time out "being cows". Would that be too much to give them? That doesn't bother you? Just because dairy cows can't ask to be let out doesn't mean they wouldn't appreciate it.

The chickens that lay eggs around here never leave those long pole barn buildings. Would it be so hard to fence in a big area with fencing that foxes can't get through, put a few guard dogs out there, and let the chickens stretch their legs a bit?

As I mentioned, I have no problem with eating meat, eggs, etc. I grew up hunting and fishing, I've shot several deer, hunted rabbits, birds, and squirrels. I'm not currently hunting, but I will again if I feel like it, and I fish a lot. But the animals we eat, drink milk from, and consume eggs from are more than "product". They deserve a better quality of life.

[JackieB]

Beware of films designed to horrify and direct your emotions. Rarely, if ever, can you trust anything that's rooted in manipulation.

I understand, Tiz. I wouldn't maintain this position if not for personal experience as well. I mentioned the dairy cattle that live just two miles from my house. There are probably 2500 on two farms, and they never get outside. Well, actually about 20 do. They are the ones for "show" at the farm store. I was inside one of the barns once with a friend who works there and asked about the huge swelling on a cow's hind legs. She said it was from standing there chained up all the time.

Another friend of mine is a local veterinarian. I mentioned that I really liked hogs. She said that the ones she treats are often vicious because they just go crazy in those gestation/farrowing crates. Hogs are known to be very social animals. Those crates are a whole lot more confining than the smallest prison cell for a human being, that's for sure.

So while I do accept that it's important to consider a filmmaker's agenda, I think it's a mistake to dismiss nearly everything as "distorted hype" for that reason alone.

[WashingtonBay]

I will not be watching the video either, but I'm sure it's bad, and put together in such a way that it's pretty compelling.

I hate that bad things happen and that people do some of those bad things. BUT IMHO, the central industrialization of a society that thinks meat comes from the store is the problem, not the fact that we are, mostly carnivore/omnivores. Rather than quit eating meat, I'd rather support the small local farmer who raises a few cattle and, rather than sell them off to large industrial slaughter houses that ship them all to one horrid-to-see location, butchers his own, locally, or through a local packer. There are difficult-to-stomach problems that come from the industrialization of our whole food supply, from cleanliness issues, to imports from China that contain who-knows-what, to the abuses at large factory farms. IMHO, I'd rather support the rebirth of the small local farmer than I would the platform of urban vegans whose feet never touch earth except maybe on vacation in parks.

My advice JackieB... if you no longer wish to support mystery meat wrapped in plastic, would be to find someone locally who would love for you to buy a half a beef from him, for a fair price, packed by your local butcher. You support the butcher, the farmer, the ongoing supply of little calves for you to chase around, you support the sight and lifestyle of farms with fenced pastures and livestock grazing that to me represents the best of rural America. Stop at small farms that have eggs for sale, buy from local markets. I'd like the world that would create, a lot better than I would like the world an urban vegan would think up.

[oursarge]

I didn't watch it, I can't, any form of animal abuse or animals dying makes me physically ill. I do not eat meat, my choice, I don't push it on others. My husband does eat meat, he gets it from our friends who have their own beef cows, we get eggs from them too. I don't like the fact the cows are slaughtered but they have decent lives until then, they aren't tied in stalls they are outside with shelter. If he's going to eat meat he at least knows they are not force fed or given any kind of hormones etc. He eats it, he cooks it himself, I won't.

[JackieB]

BUT IMHO, the central industrialization of a society that thinks meat comes from the store is the problem, not the fact that we are, mostly carnivore/omnivores. ...would be to find someone locally who would love for you to buy a half a beef from him.... Stop at small farms that have eggs for sale, buy from local markets. I'd like the world that would create, a lot better than I would like the world an urban vegan would think up.

Yes, absolutely! That's what I am comfortable with and trying to do, actually. As I mentioned, it's not eating meat, predator/prey relationships that I have any problem with at all.

For example, I know a woman who is raising chickens to eat. I am buying three of them from her for $10 each as soon as they are mature. Apparently, someone will kill and clean them for us, but I'll definitely do it myself if necessary. But I know in the meantime that they are carrying on in her yard, just being chickens.

And we buy cage-free eggs from a girl who raises them as a 4-H project.

I think your idea is a splendid one. In addition to my own fishing, I am happy to support local farmers who simply provide basic quality of life to their animals.

Leather is definitely off my list, though. Although I understand that there is waste in synthetic products too, I recently discovered that the vast majority of leather comes from China and India. Not countries known for their environmental awareness, that's for sure.

Good points, WB!

[WashingtonBay]

If you quit using leather though, you'll be importing all your synthetic shoes from China though, you're just moving to a new problem, not stopping one.

And, I might add... the small and large US and European saddle makers who still do fine craftsmanship deserve support. What they do is worth supporting, no matter where they get their leather. If we don't support them, then China will certainly be making our saddles soon too. Leather or not.

[Buckpoco]

Good discussion. I have no problem with eating meat...I can't stand the way the animals are treated prior to the slaughter and sometimes how they are slaughtered.
Right now I'd rather see horses slaughtered for consumption than shipped to Mexico or starved to death.
I recently switched (at the recommendation of my holistic doctor) to Buffalo. They are treated OK, aren't they. Is anyone familiar with buffalo slaughter?

[WashingtonBay]

I read it all. Thanks for the perspective.

While Earthlings has brought on a sort of "tipping point" for me, I have been headed in this direction for a long time, based on my own personal experience. For example, there are a couple of large dairy farms within two miles of my house. The cattle on them never, ever leave their barn, except to go to slaughter. There isn't even a pasture to let them out in anymore. That just strikes me as wrong. When I was growing up, dairy cattle came in for milking twice a day and spent the rest of the time out "being cows". Would that be too much to give them? That doesn't bother you? Just because dairy cows can't ask to be let out doesn't mean they wouldn't appreciate it.

The chickens that lay eggs around here never leave those long pole barn buildings. Would it be so hard to fence in a big area with fencing that foxes can't get through, put a few guard dogs out there, and let the chickens stretch their legs a bit?

As I mentioned, I have no problem with eating meat, eggs, etc. I grew up hunting and fishing, I've shot several deer, hunted rabbits, birds, and squirrels. I'm not currently hunting, but I will again if I feel like it, and I fish a lot. But the animals we eat, drink milk from, and consume eggs from are more than "product". They deserve a better quality of life.

JB - stop and talk to that dairy farmer sometime. Ask him why. I had the most enlightening conversation with one once, a while ago now, but I'm sure what he said was true then, and now.

I bet if you asked him, he'd love to have his cows on pasture. In areas where they do not, I bet it has far more to do with the EPA and Dept of Ecology than any benefit to the farmer in keeping them inside. There aren't many benefits to the farmer in keeping them inside, only issues and problems.

The EPA and Dept of Ecology here started cracking down on dairy farms a decade ago for water quality issues and dairies now are under tight restrictions on waste collection. Cows can't poop outside any more, they must only poop where it will be 100% collected and treated in retention ponds and other on site treatment facilities, at great cost to the farmers, and great cost to the quality of life of the cattle. Dairy farms, once a common sight in rich lowland pastures, now can't graze cattle within the potential flood plain of any streams or wetlands.

The waste collection and treatment facilities to bring a dairy up to code cost, at the time, $200,000. That's $$$$ a decade ago. The small family dairies have gone under. They can't afford it. The bigger ones are barely surviving in a new world that has switched to margarine and low fat cheese products and cattle that aren't allowed to poop outside. It used to be that dairies made their money on butter and cheese. Milk sales were just a way to subsidize getting rid of the milk. Nowadays, they're lucky to sell milk. Are you buying butter and cheese from a local dairy? Or some kind of homogenized synthetic vegetable oil margarine from a huge factory somewhere?

[Tiz]

I agree, vociferously in fact, with both of you, J and WB.

Factory farms are revolting, and are probably, in part, a result of government's patty fingers and subsidies all over them. In fact, the taste of pork and chicken doesn't even resemble what it used to taste like. The meat tastes faintly of the way their poop smells, to me. Either I'm imagining it, or it's real, and is because of the crowded conditions these farms operate with.

Several years ago we bought some hay from a dairy farmer. It was stored in a hay loft above where the cows lived, indoors, on concrete. You know it would be impossible to keep the floor clean, and you know what cow poop looks like. The cows were filthy. The pastures were utilized only for silage and hay apparently. I understand that's far, far more cost effective than pasturing the cows, but what a nasty operation. That is when I realized how modern dairies operate. By the way, the hay stunk so bad the horses would barely choke it down.

I'd be interested to learn how government rules, regulations, and health department requirements have impacted small meat and milk producers. When I was a kid there were all kinds of tiny dairies, with just five or six milking stanchions and modest dairy herds. Our neighbor had one, in fact. I wonder why they've disappeared.

[Tiz]

Ah ha. You type faster than me, WB. It looks like my question came after your answer. Good info.

[WashingtonBay]

The cows live on concrete so the poop can all be hosed into the retention ponds and treated, I'm sure of it.

[Rie]

I read it all. Thanks for the perspective.

While Earthlings has brought on a sort of "tipping point" for me, I have been headed in this direction for a long time, based on my own personal experience. For example, there are a couple of large dairy farms within two miles of my house. The cattle on them never, ever leave their barn, except to go to slaughter. There isn't even a pasture to let them out in anymore. That just strikes me as wrong. When I was growing up, dairy cattle came in for milking twice a day and spent the rest of the time out "being cows". Would that be too much to give them? That doesn't bother you? Just because dairy cows can't ask to be let out doesn't mean they wouldn't appreciate it.

The chickens that lay eggs around here never leave those long pole barn buildings. Would it be so hard to fence in a big area with fencing that foxes can't get through, put a few guard dogs out there, and let the chickens stretch their legs a bit?

As I mentioned, I have no problem with eating meat, eggs, etc. I grew up hunting and fishing, I've shot several deer, hunted rabbits, birds, and squirrels. I'm not currently hunting, but I will again if I feel like it, and I fish a lot. But the animals we eat, drink milk from, and consume eggs from are more than "product". They deserve a better quality of life.

I understand where you are coming from, it bothers me deeply that that sort of abuse happens at all. That is why I deeply support animal welfare instead of animal rights, the AR agenda has nothing to offer animals. Animal welfare has been protecting animals for years.

Dairy cattle never leaving the barn sounds off to me as well, though I personally know it is not the norm. I have seen hundreds of dairy farms from California to Ohio and the vast majority are very large and spacious. That is how it should be. Perhaps it would be good to contact an inspector and ask them if it is legal to keep all the cows in the barn without any turnout? Maybe the actual number of cattle is smaller than it used to be and now it is easier and more cleanly to keep them inside? I wouldn't be able to tell much else without seeing the farm myself.

Chickens in battery cages are actually well cared for a majority of the time, the reason they are put in such small cages is because that breed of chicken is highly aggressive to other chickens when given more space. They are very territorial and will kill then cannibalize others for getting in "their space." This is why you will see so many chickens with their beaks filed down, so they won't be able to peck other chickens. It looks bad to those who don't know why, but it doesn't hurt the chickens.

I agree with WashingtonBay that the best option would be to support a local farmer.


-- on the side note I should look at who's posted since I started typing lol-

[WashingtonBay]

The world is not a simple place any more. I wish it was. I wish there was a simple way to live well and deal only with those you trust and buy from people you truly want to support. I would LOVE to live in the world of the Ingall's family only a hundred years ago. Now, we're so far removed from those who produce anything, we don't even know where anything comes from.

[FlapJack]

Chickens in battery cages are actually well cared for a majority of the time, the reason they are put in such small cages is because that breed of chicken is highly aggressive to other chickens when given more space. They are very territorial and will kill then cannibalize others for getting in "their space." This is why you will see so many chickens with their beaks filed down, so they won't be able to peck other chickens. It looks bad to those who don't know why, but it doesn't hurt the chickens.


You don't think cutting through bone, cartilage and soft tissue hurts? I'd be highly aggressive too if I had to live in one of those till death. Chickens peck excessively when bored/frustrated - again, I'd be frustrated as well. Those battery cages are miserable things, I don't see how anyone could call them humane. At least people who raise chickens outdoors, free range etc can say they are offering the chickens a decent life before death. The same cannot be said with those awful cages.

Anyway, that's great JackieB. Good for you :) I watched Earthlings a while ago and it had a big effect on me, too.

[Pinky]

Do they sell free-range animal products in the USA? There's a huge market for it over here, along with GM free and organic food. I don't mean in little town 'mom-n-pop' stores - I'm talking about the big superstores (Walmart etc). Organic food is a big selling point to me, it may be more expensive but it tastes better (I only really eat chicken and the odd steak).

I won't be watching the video either because I'm a wuss, but I agree with Tiz that you shouldn't necessarily believe something that is designed to manipulate.

The cows behind your house - are there regulations in place with regards to the housing of livestock? They could probably be reported to environmental health or a proper animal rights charity (by 'proper', I mean 'not PETA' because they all seem rabid and insane in their views). Over here any animal waste can be gathered up and used to fertilize the fields - there are no concerns about animals polluting the water and the farmer can sell his crops for more. Most cows are kept inside for 2 months over the winter (and it's normally a max of 50 cows in hoyuuuuge barn) whilst the worst of the weather passes (though we have more rain in summer right now :huh:), otherwise the fields get ripped up and muddy.

I think that being vegan would be interesting but I couldn't do it. Technically, oil (and therefore gas for your car) is a by-product of animals ;).

[WashingtonBay]

At least people who raise chickens outdoors, free range etc can say they are offering the chickens a decent life before death. The same cannot be said with those awful cages.


And if we all lived on a small farm and kept our own chickens, we wouldn't have the problems of space and management it takes to keep them from trying to kill each other.

The issue is a farm or two supplying the eggs of thousands or millions of people who have never been in the same room as a chicken. It's that we've moved to cities and apartment buildings and left our food production to others. Those others started out small, but continued growth and regulation and complexity has driven the small ones under, in large part, to be replaced by those farms who can afford the regulation and scale of it and guarantee a supply to meet the demand.

[WashingtonBay]

Do they sell free-range animal products in the USA? There's a huge market for it over here, along with GM free and organic food.

There is a healthy demand for it here too.

[Tiz]

The EPA, all unelected personnel, has a frightening level of power. To add to the dairy harassment story, I'll tell you about my local racetrack.

There is a slough, near the racetrack, which is renown for it's pollution. The water practically smokes, it's so gross. Dead cars, junk, garbage, murder victims, tires, kitchen sinks, and all, can be exhumed from this sludge.

Someone at the EPA, who may not be a horse race fan, decided that no cost should be spared in preventing water runoff from the racetrack, which may have been in contact with horse manure, from making it to the slough a half a mile away. They actually shut the track down for a season and a half, and drove the owners, who couldn't afford the massive $500,000 capture and filter system that was demanded, to sell. The eventual buyers had deep pockets, at the time, and installed the capture system, redid the drainage pipes, redid the roads between the barns so runoff that was exposed to poop would be directed into the newly hooked into city sewer system, built a huge, centrally located barn devoted to nothing but manure, and hired people to walk around with scoops and wheelbarrows to pounce on poop as soon as it hits the ground. Instead of dumping in manure bins at the end of the barns, we now wheel up to the big barn, and if it's raining, we are required to cover the wheelbarrows with tarps. With all of this, the track is still regularly fined for not meeting standards, and has the EPA standing over them at all times, with the constant threat of closing it down.

This is in a city that has a sewer system that overflows raw sewage into the Willamette River, every time it rains. In Oregon.

Yeah, the Environmental Protection Agency, capriciously working to put horse owners, trainers, breeders, grooms, riders, stall cleaners, kitchen operators, hay farmers, grain farmers, straw providers, and farriers out of business in my neighborhood.

It would be the first superfluous government agency that would disappear if I was President.

[WashingtonBay]

The cows behind your house - are there regulations in place with regards to the housing of livestock? They could probably be reported to environmental health or a proper animal rights charity

This cracks me up, in the way that many of the nanny-state agendas sometimes conflict and step on each other. Here we have the ecology/groundwater motives in direct conflict with the animal rights people.


Over here any animal waste can be gathered up and used to fertilize the fields - there are no concerns about animals polluting the water and the farmer can sell his crops for more.

Not raw manure, only after composting and treatment.

[WashingtonBay]

The EPA, all unelected personnel, has a frightening level of power. To add to the dairy harassment story, I'll tell you about my local racetrack.

There is a slough, near the racetrack, which is renown for it's pollution. The water practically smokes, it's so gross. Dead cars, junk, garbage, murder victims, tires, kitchen sinks, and all, can be exhumed from this sludge.

Someone at the EPA, who may not be a horse race fan, decided that no cost should be spared in preventing water runoff from the racetrack, which may have been in contact with horse manure, from making it to the slough a half a mile away. They actually shut the track down for a season and a half, and drove the owners, who couldn't afford the massive $500,000 capture and filter system that was demanded, to sell. The eventual buyers had deep pockets, at the time, and installed the capture system, redid the drainage pipes, redid the roads between the barns so runoff that was exposed to poop would be directed into the newly hooked into city sewer system, built a huge, centrally located barn devoted to nothing but manure, and hired people to walk around with scoops and wheelbarrows to pounce on poop as soon as it hits the ground. Instead of dumping in manure bins at the end of the barns, we now wheel up to the big barn, and if it's raining, we are required to cover the wheelbarrows with tarps. With all of this, the track is still regularly fined for not meeting standards, and has the EPA standing over them at all times, with the constant threat of closing it down.

This is in a city that has a sewer system that overflows raw sewage into the Willamette River, every time it rains. In Oregon.

Yeah, the Environmental Protection Agency, capriciously working to put horse owners, trainers, breeders, grooms, riders, stall cleaners, kitchen operators, hay farmers, grain farmers, straw providers, and farriers out of business in my neighborhood.

It would be the first superfluous government agency that would disappear if I was President.

OK - excellent post. See... you knew more than you think you did about what the dairies, chicken and pork farms are up against and why the cows aren't outside. The same thing and more.

[Tiz]

What are they called, Biodigesters? Can't remember, but they are power plants that produce energy from animal waste. Imagine that.

I read a story about an Englishman many years ago, probably during the Carter era gas crisis, that used chicken poop to run his automobile. Methane gas? Can't remember the details, but this stuff is useful, and the technology isn't complicated.

[FlapJack]

The issue is a farm or two supplying the eggs of thousands or millions of people who have never been in the same room as a chicken. It's that we've moved to cities and apartment buildings and left our food production to others. Those others started out small, but continued growth and regulation and complexity has driven the small ones under, in large part, to be replaced by those farms who can afford the regulation and scale of it and guarantee a supply to meet the demand.

That's true. As a vegan I obviously don't want to support any kind of farm that ends with death for the animals (unnatural death), but I agree that supporting smaller, local farms is much better than the alternative. Commercial farms that are concerned less (if at all) about the welfare of the animals and more so the quantity they can cram into whatever space is legally acceptable do not deserve any support.

I feel like if the majority of the people living separate from farm-life now knew what really happened to their food, they'd stop buying it or look elsewhere. If you asked people I bet many would describe farms more like they used to be - the idyllic, picturesque farm with green fields dotted with cows. That's so far from the reality of factory farming and a lot of people just don't know it.

[Tiz]

" See... you knew more than you think you did about what the dairies, chicken and pork farms are up against and why the cows aren't outside. The same thing and more."

Oh, I know I have stuff rattling around in my head. Sometimes, it's just hard to catch.

[Rie]

You don't think cutting through bone, cartilage and soft tissue hurts? I'd be highly aggressive too if I had to live in one of those till death. Chickens peck excessively when bored/frustrated - again, I'd be frustrated as well. Those battery cages are miserable things, I don't see how anyone could call them humane. At least people who raise chickens outdoors, free range etc can say they are offering the chickens a decent life before death. The same cannot be said with those awful cages.

Anyway, that's great JackieB. Good for you :) I watched Earthlings a while ago and it had a big effect on me, too.

And I quote,

""The pros and cons of the most common method of controlling cannibalism, beak trimming, are well documented. The disadvantages include acute stress and short-term and perhaps long-term pain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pain) following a beak trim (This only happens when it is a mature bird.) A bird’s ability to consume feed is impaired following beak trimming because of the new beak shape that the young bird must adapt to. The welfare advantages include reduced pecking, feather pulling, and cannibalism; better feather condition; decreased mortality; and a lower level of flock fearfulness and nervousness leading to less chronic stress. The welfare disadvantages are more applicable to the individual birds whose beaks are trimmed, while the welfare advantages are more relevant to the interactive flock.""

Depending on the amount of beak taken off it might hurt and it might not. In Falconry it is VERY common to have to trim a hawk or falcons beak because they will overgrow. If I remember correctly this is sometimes needed on birds like parakeets and parrots. When done correctly it will not hurt the animal at all. During a beak removal for chickens it may not hurt at all or it may cause a temporary pain. It is done while they are chicks and can be compared to castrating a lamb or horse. It WILL hurt, but it is overall better for the animal. (I can think of a human similarity also -- Wisdom teeth. It hurts like hell but to keep them from hurting later on it is best to remove them.)

Note I'm not a chicken expert, and I might be utterly wrong in what I've read and learned. But I do believe causing a little pain to prevent a lot is acceptable at times.

[WashingtonBay]

I feel like if the majority of the people living separate from farm-life now knew what really happened to their food, they'd stop buying it or look elsewhere. If you asked people I bet many would describe farms more like they used to be - the idyllic, picturesque farm with green fields dotted with cows. That's so far from the reality of factory farming and a lot of people just don't know it.

They may know but try not to think about it... because it's sure easy to keep buying the easiest and cheapest option. It's a complex world, full of issues and causes and ideals we can spend our time worrying about. Given that we have to earn livings and raise our families or whatever it is we choose to do with our day, eventually we have to pick and choose our battles. While some very good people spend their energy working on creating a more idealic life for farm animals, others depend on cheap food to keep people, who usually are in no position to create their own farm, fed.

[FlapJack]

Rie

I don't know where you quoted from, but that's what I mean. Since the nerves from the beak connect to nerves in the face and brain of chicks, they do often suffer chronic pain from debeaking. They put the birds in incredibly stressful situations and then when the bird starts acting out - they remove the bird's ability to do so instead of fixing the problem. Fixing the problem would mean allowing birds the space and compassion to act how they naturally would.

I believe debeaking chicks has been banned in Finland, Sweden, Norway, and that the UK will follow in 2011.

[JackieB]

I wish there was a simple way to live well and deal only with those you trust and buy from people you truly want to support.

Well, it's important enough to me that I'm willing to accept that it won't necessarily be simple. We've found eggs at $4 a dozen that we are comfortable buying, I like soy milk just as much as regular milk anyway, I've got a friend who is raising chickens that I can buy when they mature, and I catch my own fish. If I wanted more meat, I could go back to hunting like I did when I was a kid.

[Pinky]

I read a story about an Englishman many years ago, probably during the Carter era gas crisis, that used chicken poop to run his automobile. Methane gas? Can't remember the details, but this stuff is useful, and the technology isn't complicated.

Top Gear (link to video (http://www.livevideo.com/video/dudewheresmycar/35C19DA711984DAF8E0B77A674F5E540/top-gear-methane-powered-car.aspx)) made a car to run on methane. Fifth Gear (video link) have done a chip fat Merc vs an Apple powered Jag.

I honestly thought that the US Government made sense than ours. It doesn't look like it though ;). You're all mad to tolerate it!

[JackieB]

They may know but try not to think about it... because it's sure easy to keep buying the easiest and cheapest option. It's a complex world, full of issues and causes and ideals we can spend our time worrying about. Given that we have to earn livings and raise our families or whatever it is we choose to do with our day, eventually we have to pick and choose our battles. While some very good people spend their energy working on creating a more idealic life for farm animals, others depend on cheap food to keep people, who usually are in no position to create their own farm, fed.

That is really what it comes down to. I know you aren't putting a value judgment on that, just stating the facts. When people say "In a perfect world..." in support of an issue, what they are really saying is "That's not as important to me as maintaining status quo."

Providing turkey at 70 cents/lb and eggs for 90 cents/dozen is just more important than the quality of life of the animals. It's pretty much that simple. But not for me. Not anymore, anyway. I'm either going to be satisfied that the animal that provided whatever I'm consuming had a good quality of life, or I'm not buying it. Others will pick different battles.

[WashingtonBay]

I'd like to think there's a balance that could be workable, of all those sometimes-competing ideals, JB. Generally, I think the closer to home you find your food, the better off everyone would be. I bet it wouldn't be all that hard for any of us to go in with a buddy or two on some cows we could treat to nice pasture life for a summer and then kill ourselves... (or have it processed by a local butcher) but it takes more work than a trip to the grocery store does. Still, I'd like to do it. For what it would give us, for what it would teach me.

I'd rather do that, and support good methods, than I would boycott them all to spite the factory farms. Boycotting animal products entirely, as an individual, does not promote the better practices we'd all like to see, either.

[JackieB]

Boycotting animal products entirely, as an individual, does not promote the better practices we'd all like to see, either.

Well, it creates demand for the $4/dozen eggs we buy, the person who is raising chickens and planning to sell me a few, etc. I'm willing to pay at least twice as much for the same products (milk, eggs, meat) as other consumers, and in some cases as much as four or five times as much. I've been thinking of a "heritage turkey", which sell for up to $10/lb.

[WashingtonBay]

But that's not a boycott... that's not being vegan. That's supporting those who you want to support by buying their products, not the factory farm ones. It's exactly what I'm saying... rather than saying you'll not use animal products, instead try to support those who you think are doing better. There's much that we depend on, as horsemen, that depends on the health of the wider local farm community. Our farm and feed supplies, our veterinarians, our hay suppliers, the saddle repair shop. All things in our own community that we would miss if we decided to boycott animal products entirely and who benefit from us choosing to buy locally.

[Tiz]

Quote:
Originally Posted by WashingtonBay http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/images/styles/beige/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?p=341398#post341398)
Boycotting animal products entirely, as an individual, does not promote the better practices we'd all like to see, either.

"Well, it creates demand for the $4/dozen eggs we buy, the person who is raising chickens and planning to sell me a few, etc. I'm willing to pay at least twice as much for the same products (milk, eggs, meat) as other consumers, and in some cases as much as four or five times as much. I've been thinking of a "heritage turkey", which sell for up to $10/lb."
__________________


And when you, and others like you, lose reasoning power over an issue to the point of being willing to pay $200 for a Thanksgiving turkey, or $4 for a dozen eggs, you ensure the existence of factory farms that produce cheaper food.

"Here, JackieB", says Farmer Ben,"that will be $2 for the dozen eggs, plus $2 for your ideals, $4 total. Thank you for making it possible to make a living off of ten chickens!"

It actually sounds like the more you pay, the better you feel about it.

[JackieB]

But that's not a boycott... that's not being vegan. That's supporting those who you want to support by buying their products, not the factory farm ones. It's exactly what I'm saying...

Right. Sorry I wasn't clear in my initial post. I probably shouldn't have used the word vegan since it is a lifestyle that declines to use any animal products, regardless of how the animals live/lived. It's all a "quality of life" issue for me. I'm not at all opposed to eating meat.

[JackieB]

And when you, and others like you, lose reasoning power over an issue to the point of being willing to pay $200 for a Thanksgiving turkey, or $4 for a dozen eggs, you ensure the existence of factory farms that produce cheaper food.

"Here, JackieB", says Farmer Ben,"that will be $2 for the dozen eggs, plus $2 for your ideals, $4 total. Thank you for making it possible to make a living off of ten chickens!"

It actually sounds like the more you pay, the better you feel about it.

Come on, Tiz. There's nothing the least bit unreasonable in these types of purchases. It's not my ideals I'm happy to pay the extra for, it's the quality of life of the animal.

What ensures the existence of factory farms is that most people don't care about animal welfare. Consumers don't want to see or know about these issues, but as long as food it cheap, that's all that's important.

[natisha]

How does one really know what exactly they are getting? Couldn't the farmer throw a few unloved eggs in with the loved ones?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I take it from a somewhat different perspective. Whatever cruelty is done to animals by the hand of man is, in the big picture, simply trivial in comparison to the cruelty visited on animals by animals in nature. In the whole of nature pretty much all prey species (and even some predators) live desperate lives punctuated by daily terrors, constant threats from predators, possible starvation and thirst, and ultimately are destined to die at the will of another, and the method will rarely be quick. If they're lucky they'll be fully dead before they start being eaten. Life on this planet is hard, cruel and often short-- and it's not man's doing. We cannot end cruelty, nor even meaningfully impact it, and we certainly shouldn't even if we could.

I think we can also take some solace that among the entirety of the animal kingdom it is mankind alone that routinely and broadly makes the effort to show kindness to animals. We care for animals when nature would not. Of course we shouldn't inflict suffering frivolously and by and large, we really don't. At the end though, we are still a predator species and we will cause pain in animals. This doesn't make it automatically wrong, and it certainly isn't unnatural.

[Tiz]

"There's nothing the least bit unreasonable in these types of purchases."

Gasp!!!!!! Yes, those prices are ridiculous, and because they are, more people will stay in the supermarket, buying factory farmed food. See the unintended consequences.

I am weary of greed, and when a farmer charges double or triple or, in the case of your turkey, over ten times for a product that they spend less money on, it bugs me to heck. Get your grass fed beef here! All natural! $10 a pound, and we didn't spend a dime on grain! Yeah, baby! Come on you, Jackie.

[Rie]

+1 for Ragnar

[Tiz]

Yes, RD the Barbarian, all you say is truth. But...

[natisha]

"There's nothing the least bit unreasonable in these types of purchases."

Gasp!!!!!! Yes, those prices are ridiculous, and because they are, more people will stay in the supermarket, buying factory farmed food. See the unintended consequences.

I am weary of greed, and when a farmer charges double or triple or, in the case of your turkey, over ten times for a product that they spend less money on, it bugs me to heck. Get your grass fed beef here! All natural! $10 a pound, and we didn't spend a dime on grain! Yeah, baby! Come on you, Jackie.I have to agree, they do seem to charge more for doing less.

[JackieB]

I think we can also take some solace that among the entirety of the animal kingdom it is mankind alone that routinely and broadly makes the effort to show kindness to animals. We care for animals when nature would not. Of course we shouldn't inflict suffering frivolously and by and large, we really don't.

Your points are mostly well-taken. Nature can be very harsh, although I would say "indifferent" is probabably a better word than "cruel". I'm sure that distinction doesn't matter to the prey animal, though. I reservie "cruel" for humans because it generally represents a choice. The animals feeding themselves in the wild are just doing it the only way they can, really.

I guess I would just finish your last sentence by saying that "...by an large, we could, and should, be doing a lot, lot better." That's just my own value judgment on the situation, and I'll just feel better if I follow my own path in that regard. I'm sure we all have similar issues.

[JackieB]

How does one really know what exactly they are getting? Couldn't the farmer throw a few unloved eggs in with the loved ones?

With the girl who sells the eggs as a 4-H project, I don't worry about it. They are all different sizes, she's got pictures of her chickens on the poster at the store, etc. But with the ones in the grocery store that are certified cage-free, I have to trust them, and I do think about that a bit.

[peace_baby]

Looks like I'm a little late to the party here (like that's anything new). :rolleyes:

I just wanted to add that there is a difference between vegan and vegetarian for those who didn't know.

Vegetarians don't eat meat. Vegans go a little farther than just not eating meat. They don't consume any animal products (ie. dairy, eggs, etc.).

Here's a link if that helps. http://www.vegetarianvegan.com/Vegan_Vs_Vegetarian.html

That is all. :)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...]
Vegetarians don't eat meat. Vegans go a little farther than just not eating meat. They don't consume any animal products (ie. dairy, eggs, etc.).
[...]

Oh yeah... I'm fully aware:
veg·e·tar·i·an

 /ˌvɛdʒhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngɪˈtɛərhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngihttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngən/ [vej-i-tair-ee-uhhttp://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.pngn]
–noun 1. Pre-Columbian Cherokee Indian word meaning "lousy hunter".

See Vegan, Cherokee for "can't even milk a damned cow, see if the little twit can pull some berries off that bush over there".

[WashingtonBay]

<----does not accept any blame or responsibility for the above comments ;)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

LOL... Well... *I* thought it was funny, anyway. :)

[JackieB]

LOL... Well... *I* thought it was funny, anyway. :)

It was. :p

[Tiz]

Well, good to know the goat is blameless.:p

Twit doesn't sound like an Indian word, RD.

[BlaiseGlaze]

Lots of good points here. I can't watch the video, I know it will make me sick. Some years ago I watched a clip (while surfing) about how they kill dogs and cats in Korea. It was weeks and weeks until I stopped being upset and feeling nauseous...so, I won't watch the video.
I didn't know that about the ARA...money, of course...how could I be so dumb.
I for one have tried to be vegan and can't, period. My body needs meat. So...I'm just glad that we have, as stated above, made some strides in showing more compassion towards animals.
Same exact thing here.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...]
Twit doesn't sound like an Indian word, RD.

See? That's how the Navajo code talkers were able to fool the Japanese all that time!

[Tiz]

Changing it up, eh? Those crafty natives.

[outriding01]

I wish I'd seen this thread sooner. A lot of this is very closely related to what my actual career goal is (considering if I ever actually make it out of school...)
I'd love to go to work for the state as a liaison between the Commissioner of Ag and small, sustainable farmers. Or a policy maker, or even start my own lobbyist firm.... However I can best get the job of making sustainable farming more feasible and economically sound for not only farmers, but consumers as well.
It's such a Catch 22. Because large farming corporations have the most pull over the USDA and other governing organizations, they tailor laws and policies to fit their practices. This makes it extremely difficult for smaller, sustainable farmers to produce any sort of product in an economically viable manner. Regulations regarding how and where animals must be slaughtered and how the meat is processed prohibit farmers from doing almost any of the work themselves. They are required in most cases to expend large amounts of money to have their animals shipped to sanctioned slaughter facilities with hordes of other animals and pay even more money to ensure their meat is kept separate from the rest and returned to them to be sold. The most economically feasible way to do this at the moment is for farmers to pool their resources and build their own slaughter facility, which is a huge risk because once it is built, it must be inspected and approved. The USDA isn't hugely fond of approving them because that means they have to provide a regular inspector for the facility, which even if it is meant for use by several large sustainable farms, is still bound to be tiny in comparison to a normal sized facility and not in regular, daily use. This is just one of many, many problems that irrational policies pose these farmers.

And don't even get me started on the issue of dairy and beef farms causing environmental pollution... It all comes down to what's being fed to the animals that is producing such harmful waste. If we would go back to dairy and beef that is fed solely grass and forage as they are meant to eat and not corn-based diets supplemented with antibiotics to mask the side effects, they animals would be much, much healthier and not produce waste so high in nitrogen that it's created a dead-zone in the Gulf of Mexico bigger than New Jersey.... But I digress. It takes a lot of time and energy to actually study the entire spectrum of effects large, corporate farming has had on our nation, but if you do, you realize that the task of trying to reverse these effects is quite daunting. It covers a huge range of governing bodies, organizations and people, from farming subsidy programs to GMO's and biological engineering firms to truck drivers. I'm attending the 2010 Farm to Fuel Summit starting this week in an effort to make some connections and get a foot in the door for an internship hopefully leading to a position where I can start to push for some changes.

I wrote a research paper highlighting some of the issues with processing for sustainable farmers if anyone is interested in reading it, or I can post it I suppose if there's enough interest. It's several years old now and I lost the final copy, so the one I have is missing a few references and not completely fleshed out, but has all the key points. It's about 7 pages in Word. I also wrote a literature review in April on the global effects of agricultural subsidies in developed countries that shares some key issues and is much more up to date, and IMO highly interesting and informative if you've never been introduced to the subject..... About 9 pages or so.....

[mare]

That Farm and Fuel Summit would be interesting. I'd be interested in your take on it.

Because of tax laws, though, many family farms and ranches have incorporated. So, they are often considered "large farm/ranch corporations," a term which seems to have a negative connotation attached.

There is a movement toward smaller processing/packing plants, usable by local producers. So far it seems to be in the northeast U.S. The target producer will have maybe 50-100 animals. Not functional for the average ranch in my area, but we've always had small hobbyists who just raise animals because they like the life and they have local outlets for their meat products.

Glad you are planning to get involved in ag.

[shiver]

I read about 3 pages of this and ran out of time.

But I support the idea of buying local. I friend of mines family has a free range farm. They raise chicken, goat and cows. They sell their wears at the local FARMERS MARKET! It is a great place to look for fresh everything.

They even have a slaughter house... I don't know if they would call it that... for the chickens on their farm and employ a FDA inspector. She once explained how they process the chickens. Very very interesting.

I will say that their milk, eggs and chicken is the best I have ever tasted!!!

That being said, their is NO WAY I could afford to buy organic. They sell the eggs for $4 a dozen, the milk for $10 a gallon, and the chicken for $10 a lbs. WOW to me only the rich can eat this way. JUST my 2 cents.

[WashingtonBay]

Outriding, we do have the ability to upload Word documents here, if you do want to share your paper... Upload it like any attachment, and if you are over the default size limit, let me know. We can tweek that.