What exactly.....

[rocknK]

does the President-elect mean by "national security force"?

[WashingtonBay]

I don't know Rockn... can you give us a quote or a link or a clue? :)

[vicklynn]

I don't know Rockn... can you give us a quote or a link or a clue? :)

I was thinking the same thing.

[rocknK]

All I heard was a quick radio news bit about establishing a civilian national security force, whatever that means?? I figured somebody else had to have heard it also. Maybe my tinfoil hat is pulled down too tight!

[WashingtonBoy]

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," he said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."

http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/il/articles/obama_outlines_plan_for_national_service.html

[vicklynn]

Now that makes sence, he wants to take our guns, and have a civilian national security force.
Ill be my own security force thank you.

[WashingtonBoy]

So what exactly would this "civilian security force" do that that FBI, DEA, BATF, U.S. Marshals, TSA, postal inspectors, park rangers, Secret Service, state bureaus of investigation, state police, local police, sheriffs and constables, among others, aren't already doing?

This is part of the reason gun sales are skyrocketing.

[WashingtonBay]

Hm.... I'm not taking the paranoid angle yet, I'm just trying to figure out what he intends for these kids to do. "We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," he said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."

He said he would make federal assistance conditional on school districts establishing service programs and set the goal of 50 hours of service a year for middle and high school students.

For college students, Obama would set the goal at 100 hours of service a year and create a $4,000 annual tax credit for college students that would be tied to that level of service.

So he wants to give responsibility for national security to student volunteers serving 50-100 hours a year, and he's apparently going to 'pay' them to the tune of $40 a hour. Not a bad gig if you can get it.

Line the borders with teenagers and Vista volunteers.

Got it. :popcorn:

[rocknK]

see if this works...www.newsmax.com/insidecover/obama_security_force/2008/11/10/149787.html

[JackieB]

I just did a bit of research and took it to mean more people volunteering and working in the community.

As you know, by the time someone gets in serious trouble with the police or commits a crime that is investigated by the FBI, etc., rehabilitation efforts can be rather ineffective. Better to reach that person much earlier.

There is a great program that's an example of what I think Obama meant. It's run by a talented musician in Chicago I know. Her name is Alice Peacock and she performed a benefit concert for our humane society once. The program is called Rock for Reading. http://www.rockforreading.org/

One in three Chicagoans are functionally illiterate according to a government statistic posted on her website. The vast majority of these residents undoubtedly live in neighborhoods where children are at-risk of getting in trouble with the law in addition to the fact that they can't read. So, Alice's foundation works to get in these neighborhoods and work with kids to learn to read and enjoy reading.

Now some would certainly maintain that it isn't their fault that these kids can't read. It's the job of parents and schools to address and government doesn't have a role. Perhaps, but it does become our problem when these kids grow up and become chronically unemployed, commit crimes, and so on.

I think this is what Obama meant.

[Equine_Woman]

I took it to mean our police forces. They are civilians. Could also mean things like JackieB said. Or heck at the Houston Airport there is a group of trail riders who monitor the area around the airport for suspicious activity. And have a nice trail ride in the mean time. Maybe he means implementing stuff like that.

[WashingtonBoy]

But what does volunteering and working in the community have to do with achieving "national security objectives"? What are these objectives? Is teaching a child to read a national security objective? And why would this security force have to be just as powerful as the military?

[rocknK]

"We cannot continue to rely only on our military to achieve the national security objectives that we've set. We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded". Doesn't sound like teaching the 3R's to inner city kids to me.

[Equine_Woman]

I looked up the quote. Found an article that had more of it in it. . .

Obama promised to increase AmeriCorps slots from 75,000 to 250,000 and pledged to double the size of the Peace Corps by 2011.


Presumptive Republican nominee Sen. John McCain of Arizona also supports an expansion of both programs and has stressed public service, including in the military, during campaign appearances.
Obama repeated his pledge to boost the size of the active military. But he also said the nation's future and safety depends on more than just additional soldiers.


"It also depends on the teacher in East L.A., or the nurse in Appalachia, the after-school worker in New Orleans, the Peace Corps volunteer in Africa, the Foreign Service officer in Indonesia," he said.
Obama had first outlined many of the proposals he talked about Wednesday during appearances in Iowa last December.


"We cannot continue to rely only on our military in order to achieve the national security objectives that we've set," he said Wednesday. "We've got to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well funded."


He said he would make federal assistance conditional on school districts establishing service programs and set the goal of 50 hours of service a year for middle and high school students.


For college students, Obama would set the goal at 100 hours of service a year and create a $4,000 annual tax credit for college students that would be tied to that level of service.


Obama said he realizes there will be skeptics, but stressed that greater public service will make the nation safer.


"Our destiny as Americans is tied up with one another," he said. "If we are less respected in the world, then you will be less safe."


http://bulletin.aarp.org/states/il/articles/obama_outlines_plan_for_national_service.html

[JackieB]

The article that Equine_Woman posted sheds some light on what I was trying to say after watching Obama speak in that video.

[WashingtonBay]

I have no trouble with trying to inspire and increase community volunteerism and participation.

I'm just trying to figure out how that becomes something of national security impact worthy or funding that would match that of the military.

[Hobo]

http://volokh.com/archives/archive_2008_07_13-2008_07_19.shtml#1216449447


If Obama is talking about funding his civilian national security corps at the same level as the military, he would need at least an additional $500 billion.

Even though Peace Corps volunteers are poorly paid under the existing program, the agency’s annual budget is still about $43,000 per Peace Corps volunteer, not a trivial amount. If pay for Peace Corps volunteers and funding for their programs were raised to military levels, the per capita cost of the program would probably increase several fold. If one raised funding for Obama’s civilian corps only to the same level as the military spending on personnel only ($70,000 per member), we would require at least $150 billion in additional annual funding.

These staggeringly huge numbers are driven in part by the large numbers of students in AmeriCorps, 1.3 million of them. If the students were paid only $4,000 each, rather than $70,000 in personnel costs, and the student program is assumed to be otherwise completely free to administer, and the rest of AmeriCorps cost $100,000 per member, then the budget increase needed would be about $100 billion.

Also, is Obama going to expand the GI Bill to cover the 2-3 million people in Obama’s civilian national security force? If they deserve the same power, strength, and funding as the military, why not?

So – if Obama means what he says – his civilian national security corps would cost at least another $100 billion a year, and perhaps as much as $500 billion a year. With total federal income taxes of $935 billion in 2005, Obama's proposal would mean using up to half of all federal income tax revenues just to fund his promise “to have a civilian national security force that's just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded” as the military.

3. Last, given the dangers and the sacrifices that our fighting men and women are making every day in Iraq and Afghanistan, is it really fair to suggest that AmeriCorps and similar programs should be “just as powerful, just as strong, just as well-funded” as the military?

Times have certainly changed. I hesitate to think what the American public would have thought of a politician during World War II who suggested that those donating their time to tutoring, visiting the sick, or leading blackout drills on neighborhood watches on the homefront should be “just as well funded” as those serving in the military. My grandfather, who was too old to serve in WW II and led such neighborhood drills, was a man whom I admired more than anyone else I knew while I was growing up. I’m certain that my grandfather would have thought Obama’s suggestion to be strangely lacking in proportion and simple common sense.

[WashingtonBay]

Times have certainly changed. I hesitate to think what the American public would have thought of a politician during World War II who suggested that those donating their time to tutoring, visiting the sick, or leading blackout drills on neighborhood watches on the homefront should be “just as well funded” as those serving in the military. My grandfather, who was too old to serve in WW II and led such neighborhood drills, was a man whom I admired more than anyone else I knew while I was growing up. I’m certain that my grandfather would have thought Obama’s suggestion to be strangely lacking in proportion and simple common sense.

Excellent.

Inspiring community participation by paying them to volunteer, is not volunteerism.... it's just more government jobs.

[rocknK]

50 hrs a year for middle & high school students...........Ever hear of the HitlerYouth. Actually might not be a half bad idea. Maybe they could start with making them clean up their rooms! Sorry, I'm bad. I'll go add a little more tin-foil to my hat.

[Tatesgram]

I'm a little confused. When the minutemen volunteered to watch our borders for illegals, drug smugglers and human cargo runners, they were vilified. Jim Gilchrist was called a froth-mouthed racist agitator.

I've always thought with our porous borders that homeland security was kind of a joke.

[JackieB]

I think the distrust of Obama is so great on the part of those who were vehemently opposed to his election that it's for them to give him much benefit of the doubt. For example, Equine_Woman and I are imagining peaceful, service initiatives and rocknK is imagining HitlerYouth. I suppose I can understand. If Cheney had been elected or become president for any reason, I would have had an extremely hard time trusting his intentions.

[rocknK]

I actually know an old timer who was a HitlerYouth. He said it started off kinda like the Boy Scouts & ended up shooting at American soldiers after they crossed the Rhine. I hope history doesn't repeat itself in this case.

[JackieB]

I actually know an old timer who was a HitlerYouth. He said it started off kinda like the Boy Scouts & ended up shooting at American soldiers after they crossed the Rhine. I hope history doesn't repeat itself in this case.


Me, too. I'll definitely keep that in mind if I have to cross the Rhine River. Head down once I get to the other side. Very important safety tip.

[rocknK]

Isn't there a big river near you someplace called the Mississippi!:p When you see the tanks rolling by you'll know you're in trouble! Need more tinfoil, need more tinfoil.....;)

[HoustonFarrier]

I think the distrust of Obama is so great on the part of those who were vehemently opposed to his election

Personally, my distrust from him is NOT a personal thing...it's a matter of experience and his SPOKEN WORD. When I hear a politician say "...spread the wealth..." in a conversation about taxes, I KNOW what they mean.....higher taxes for everyone.

His association with Bill Ayers IS a personal thing for me....because.....I had a guy here in Texas that I met, and was friends with for several years....until I found out he was a registered sex offender (child molester). I STOPPED all contact with him after I found out who he was.

Time will tell........

Steve

[Equine_Woman]

I think the distrust of Obama is so great on the part of those who were vehemently opposed to his election that it's for them to give him much benefit of the doubt. For example, Equine_Woman and I are imagining peaceful, service initiatives and rocknK is imagining HitlerYouth. I suppose I can understand. If Cheney had been elected or become president for any reason, I would have had an extremely hard time trusting his intentions.

Now there's a statement I can get behind. He tried to shut Bell Helicopter down when I was growing up. That gave me a very bad taste in my mouth for our Vice President.

In my opinion everyone needs to stop running so far to the extreme. Obama is not the Anti-Christ, he's not going to turn into Hitler, and he's not going to take all your guns. And if he is ya'll can laugh at me and say "I told you so." But right now some of it just seems to me to be a fear of change.

[HoustonFarrier]

He tried to shut Bell Helicopter down when I was growing up. That gave me a very bad taste in my mouth for our Vice Presiden

Not quite....in fact, a flat out lie. What Dick Cheney did was try to stop funding for the V-22 Osprey, which was a joint Bell/Boeing venture (fiasco). It was originally projected to cost 2.5B...but over the years, it escalated to 30B in just 2 years. He was overruled by Congress.

Steve

[Equine_Woman]

You're right Steve. That is what he did. And for those of us who's families worked there it was quite an ordeal. My apologies for overstating. But I don't supposed assuming Obama is going to turn us all into Hitleryouth is stretching at all. . .

[JackieB]

Fortunately, Cheney was spot on with his projections that the War in Iraq would come in under its total estimated budget of $50bn and that we would be "greeted as liberators". So, we more than made up for any money we lost developing the Osprey.

[HoustonFarrier]

You're right Steve.
Yep :)

But I don't supposed assuming Obama is going to turn us all into Hitleryouth is stretching at all. . .
I didn't say that, nor did I agree with it.

Steve

[JackieB]

Sorry, Steve. I guess that was a bit snarky on my part. But I didn't think it was necessary to say that what E_W said was a "flat out lie". A mistaken statement that she accepted when you corrected her, but not a lie.

I know you didn't mean anything personal toward E_W by it, but I'm all the way up here in Michigan, so I can be mouthy without having to worry about the fact that you were a world weightlifing champion as long as we don't ever meet in person. :)

[Equine_Woman]

I didn't say that, nor did I agree with it.

Steve

And I'm glad for that.

[HoustonFarrier]

Fortunately, Cheney was spot on with his projections that the War in Iraq would come in under its total estimated budget of $50bn and that we would be "greeted as liberators". So, we more than made up for any money we lost developing the Osprey.

On Meet the Press, when asked about war finance projections, Tim Russert floated 100B past Cheney, and he stated he could not know. He did speculate about oil revenues that Iraq would be able to produce, and perhaps pay back for their liberation, but stated it was speculation. He DID say we would be greeted as liberators..and we HAVE been by most.....but you won't hear that. I'm sure most of the liberal left has forgotten the silent storm of the purple fingers in Iraq.

As I've said before...Iraq was the right war at the wrong time. I think if we had gone into Afghanistan and routed them good, and removed Bin Laden, it would have sent a very strong message to Iraq.

I've often wondered what we did to Libyia and Kadafi, to get them to turn around so fast.

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

what E_W said was a "flat out lie". A mistaken statement that she accepted when you corrected her, but not a lie.
I took it as something she was re-gurgetating from a liberal source, not as personal experience....I didn't mean for it to come out as HER specifically lying (which I didn't even consider as possible.....it just sounded like liberal hogwash :)) Had she been more specific, I would have been "kinder and gentler" :innocent: Most sincere apologies :innocent:

FWIW - I think Cheney was spot on with the Osprey. It's a bad program, frought with over-budgets, engineering bugs and flat out fraud. While it's tough to lose jobs in this manner...it's better in the long run for the country.

Steve

[JackieB]

I understand, Steve. As I mentioned in my next post, it was a bit snarky on my part.

I will say that I have come to one conclusion though, and I doubt my mind will ever change on it. I don't believe that the war was about oil (primarily) or getting back at Saddam for Bush Sr., or any of that. At least not as the main reason. But what I do believe that history will record is a systematic, even if not fully intentional, practice of the part of the Administration to embrace facts that pointed toward war and diminish those that argued against. I can't accept that it was as objective as we would have hoped.

[JackieB]

FWIW - I think Cheney was spot on with the Osprey. It's a bad program, frought with over-budgets, engineering bugs and flat out fraud. While it's tough to lose jobs in this manner...it's better in the long run for the country.

Steve

Isn't it finally performing well now? I thought we got the bugs worked out. It's a cool aircraft. Too bad it was fraught with problems and then that whole deal with falsifying records. Of course, the loss of life is the greatest. I know that at least a few of them crashed while full of troops.

[HoustonFarrier]

world weightlifing champion as long as we don't ever meet in person. :)
Powerlifting.....not weightlifting. Weightlifting is what they do in the Olympics. It comprises 2 events, the Snatch and the Clean and Jerk. Powerlifting consists of 3 events.....Squat, Benchpress and Deadlift.

Get it right ! :p LOL

Steve

[Equine_Woman]

I took it as something she was re-gurgetating from a liberal source, not as personal experience....I didn't mean for it to come out as HER specifically lying (which I didn't even consider as possible.....it just sounded like liberal hogwash :)) Had she been more specific, I would have been "kinder and gentler" :innocent: Most sincere apologies :innocent:

FWIW - I think Cheney was spot on with the Osprey. It's a bad program, frought with over-budgets, engineering bugs and flat out fraud. While it's tough to lose jobs in this manner...it's better in the long run for the country.

Steve

No problems. However I must say I disagree with the V-22. It's an amazing peice of equipment, an engineering marvel, and the Marines seem pretty happy with it. In fact they seem to be it's biggest fans. My husband builds V-22s, My grandfather helped design them so I of course am a bit biased. You can't know the insides of the company from the outsides. Yes there were a lot of bad leadership at Bell over the years but I think the V-22 is a sound product now and I'm proud that my family has helped with it.

[vicklynn]

Powerlifting.....not weightlifting. Weightlifting is what they do in the Olympics. It comprises 2 events, the Snatch and the Clean and Jerk. Powerlifting consists of 3 events.....Squat, Benchpress and Deadlift.

Get it right ! :p LOL

Steve
Oh my, dont piss Steve off..lol Military AND Power Lifter. vick runs and hides.

[JackieB]

Well I'll be. Learn something new everyday. I didn't realize there was a difference. It's impressive, though. I have never been able to physically tolerate the terrible burning sensation from the lactic acid buildup. I lifted weights for about a year to condition to race motocros and it worked great. I was in awesome shape. But I just couldn't mentally keep it up for years. My hat's off to those of you who can. It's just too much pain for me.

[JackieB]

Oh my, dont piss Steve off..lol Military AND Power Lifter. vick runs and hides.

Oh don't worry. I'm not planning to meet him in person if I can help it. He'd tear a little liberal like me to shreds and probably beat up the teddy bear riding on my GoldWing as well. :)

[HoustonFarrier]

Isn't it finally performing well now?
It is...but not as it was expected. It does not hold up well under fire.....it's easy to bring down, and cannot auto-rotate as well as a REAL helicopter. It's turned out to be a real expensive bus. Most commanders will NOT fly it in daytime operations where it is likely to take ground fire.

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

Oh don't worry. I'm not planning to meet him in person if I can help it. He'd tear a little liberal like me to shreds and probably beat up the teddy bear riding on my GoldWing as well. :)
Nah...I'm harmless. Some of my best friends ride GoldWings :p

LOL

Steve

[Miracle Whip]

Well no one else ever suggested community service. The kids today are bored silly anyway. My nephew has already BEEN assigned community service by his parol officer. If they had done that a few years ago and made his parents do community service right along with Bradley maybe they would not be as alcoholic as they are now.

I think kids need productive things to do outside of school, but knowing the kids today, I would not want them to police the city either. If it was well done, like some type of military academy... sounds a little Un American, but it COULD work. Just for the record, I have been scooping poop all weekend and today also. More of us need to ditch the tinfoil hats and take care of our horses and let the President do his job, WHEN he gets into office.

[42many]

My nephew has already BEEN assigned community service by his parol officer.

An excellent reason why most kids should be required (by PARENTS, not govt) to get jobs in high-school and learn to support themselves (at least in their non-essentials) at an earlier age. "Kids" at 14/15 are fully capable of learning the discipline and hard-work necessary to start actually living - rather than sitting at home playing video games, hanging out with friends all day long, partying, or any of the myriad other things many get involved in. If nothing else, I agree that community service would have been a benefit for many teenagers that I have known (except it would likely have inspired distaste and dissatisfaction rather than the benefits of being able to buy nice stuff with your own hard-earned money).

[Hobo]

Sorry, It' not the kids fault, It's the parents fault. I have three nephews, One in high school one in middle school (older sisters kids) and one who's only 2 years old (younger sisters kid).

The two older kids are active in 4-H, played sports in school for years, in the band etc. They don't have time to get in trouble because mom and dad spend so much time with them and helping them and working with them.

My younger nephew just turned two years old the day before halloween and he has the largest vocabulary of any of the kids in his age range at day care. All because my sister works with him. Until the parents get back involved in their kids lives, you will continue to see gangs and illegal activities that no amount of community service will ever fix.


I think kids need productive things to do outside of school, but knowing the kids today, I would not want them to police the city either. If it was well done, like some type of military academy... sounds a little Un American, but it COULD work. Just for the record, I have been scooping poop all weekend and today also. More of us need to ditch the tinfoil hats and take care of our horses and let the President do his job, WHEN he gets into office.

[missdixie]

I just did a bit of research and took it to mean more people volunteering and working in the community.

As you know, by the time someone gets in serious trouble with the police or commits a crime that is investigated by the FBI, etc., rehabilitation efforts can be rather ineffective. Better to reach that person much earlier.

There is a great program that's an example of what I think Obama meant. It's run by a talented musician in Chicago I know. Her name is Alice Peacock and she performed a benefit concert for our humane society once. The program is called Rock for Reading. http://www.rockforreading.org/

One in three Chicagoans are functionally illiterate according to a government statistic posted on her website. The vast majority of these residents undoubtedly live in neighborhoods where children are at-risk of getting in trouble with the law in addition to the fact that they can't read. So, Alice's foundation works to get in these neighborhoods and work with kids to learn to read and enjoy reading.

Now some would certainly maintain that it isn't their fault that these kids can't read. It's the job of parents and schools to address and government doesn't have a role. Perhaps, but it does become our problem when these kids grow up and become chronically unemployed, commit crimes, and so on.

I think this is what Obama meant.
Thanks JB, as usual, you took the words right out of my mouth. It is community service, benefiting the country and the kids. It's not the draft people. Paranoid much?

[missdixie]

Oh don't worry. I'm not planning to meet him in person if I can help it. He'd tear a little liberal like me to shreds and probably beat up the teddy bear riding on my GoldWing as well. :)
I got your back JB! Put up your dukes, Steve!:p

[JackieB]

I got your back JB! Put up your dukes, Steve!:p

I appreciate that very much, but if he comes for us, it's every forumer for him/herself. Just letting you know because I'd feel bad if I knocked you over while you were just trying to defend me from behind.

I'm just hoping he means what he says about being harmless. That guy is huge!:)

[HoustonFarrier]

That guy is huge!:)

Hey..I'm down UNDER 200 lbs now :p .. and I can only squat about 515lbs now (I'm doing 6 reps with 415) :cool:

Steve

[WashingtonBoy]

Here's Rahm Emanuel (Obama's Chief of Staff) talking about this plan, which he has been a big proponent of.

http://www.eyeblast.tv/public/video.aspx?v=e4qG6UIr8z

[JackieB]

Oh, I see. Now I remember them saying something about this. Mandatory service to the country for a period of time as is done in many some European countries and Israel.

[HoustonFarrier]

I've been saying ever since I went IN the Army, that it would be a good thing if it was mandatory. When I was stationed in Germany, American units all had "partner" German Army Units. We got to qualify on their weapons, they got to qualify on ours, we did joint field exercises, etc. Most of those guys (there were no women at that time in the German Army) were the "mandatory" service guys, and none of them complained.

It's a GREAT idea. Learn a job, build character, can't beat it.

Steve

[rocknK]

Would be alot more fair than a draft. Seems like the all volunteer services is working. Why fix something that isn't broke??

[JackieB]

Would be alot more fair than a draft. Seems like the all volunteer services is working. Why fix something that isn't broke??

I don't know that those required to serve should necessarily be trained to use weapons, drive tanks, and so on. I'm sure that plenty would ask for those kind of assignments anyway. But being required to serve your country makes sense to me. I think it might help many more fully appreciate what it means to be American.

[HoustonFarrier]

I don't know that those required to serve should necessarily be trained to use weapons, drive tanks, and so on

As our Drill Sergeants were so fond of reminding us......we are SOLDIERS first....

Besides....it's a BLAST getting to burn up 5000 rounds of .50cal ammo !!! LOL

Steve