Crystal's confo critique

[Petra]

I know this is the third time I'm asking about her conformation. But I would really appreciate if someone would take the time.
The first two times I asked she was still too young.
She is 3 and a half years old now. She is a TB. And even though she is still growing, I'm hoping I could get a detailed critique on her. I don't care if you are negative...you can even feel free to be mean. It really makes no difference. I just want to know, since I am not capable to critique a horse.
I don't expect a horse I bought for $75 to be anything exeptional. Either way I love her and I enjoy riding her. She is all I ever want or need from a horse. :)

She is not perfectly squared but hopefully you can see what you need to see.
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8903&stc=1&d=1285794538
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8904&stc=1&d=1285794564
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8905&stc=1&d=1285794630
Thank you! ;)

[Fork]

She reminds me of my last mare. :) I'm not a serious expert on conformation, but this is what I see.

From the feet up, I see long upright pasterns. Her front legs look nice and straight, possibly a smidge over at the knee. She stands a little under herself in the hind. It could be because she's not perfectly squared. Her tail is low set and her back is long but it's not uncommon for Thoroughbreds to have these traits. Her topline is lacking in muscle development but that will come with age and proper conditioning. She has a lovely shoulder angle. Her face looks soft, quiet and sweet.

Overall, an excellent for $75 -- Nothing to be ashamed of. Chances are that she won't grow out of her long pasterns. Take extra care not to put strain on her legs by jumping/pushing her too early as this could give way to calcium deposits.

:)

[Petra]

Thank you Fork. :)
Sorry, I do not understand the terminology well. What does over at the knee means and what effects does it have on horse's movement?
Standing under herself I understand, but again I don't know how does it affect the horse. Care to explain?
Thanks on the advice on not pushing her too much. :)

[Tiz]

Petra,
You can't really critique a horse's conformation off of a picture that isn't set up properly. Bad pictures can make nice horses look funky. You can probably find instructions on the web on how to stand her for photos, and I know you can look at professional conformation shots for examples.

I hope you'll get one of your men to help you, and take some new pics. I'd really like to see her at her best.

[Tiz]

I took a bunch confo photos last fall, and this is the only one that has the front end right, out of all of them. The hind end isn't right because the leg closest to the camera isn't straight from the hock to the ankle.
When the legs aren't right it affects how the the other angles, like shoulder and hip, look. My pictures all have the front feet too far under, which makes the shoulder look straighter than it really is, for example.

[Petra]

Thanks Tiz!
Well to be honest I wasn't taking Crystal's pictures for conformation critique purposes. These are just some pictures I took few days ago while I was taking pics of the new mare.
I was reading Cheval's thread about confo and that's why decided to ask again. :)
I'll go out there and try to take some better ones. Crystal doesn't really like either of my men. I'll have to manage by myself. :)

[cheval]

First I want to say - price doesn't have much to do with quality I don't think. You can have a $75 horse that is just exceptional or a $10,000 horse that's as smart as a cornflake. One of the best horses I ever had was my 4-H horse and he was a $500 quarter horse/morgan in the midst of thousand dollar purebreds and ribboned right up with them.

Also it would be handy to have photos from the front and back to get a whole picture.

Starting from the head:

Good eye and nostril size, good size to the head, well shaped jaw. She looks like she has a short neck which isn't necessarily bad but may be harder to flex at the poll. It looks like she has a sloping shoulder which means the withers are set behind the elbow and presents an oblique angle. This should provide a nice comfortable ride on her.

She's got high withers which can prove difficult for saddle fitting. It's really important to make sure there's good padding, fit and the saddle doesn't slip so there's no pain - which can lead to a whole set of problems. She's got a long back which can cause sway back problems down the road and it can be more difficult to develop muscle strength.

She's got a low set tail which is more of an aesthetic issue than a performance issue. She's got a nice shaped barrel. She looks like she has sickle hocks ed in the first picture, but that could be just a bad stance. It'd be nice to see pictures with her squared up better. Sickle hocks means the hind leg slants forward. But with only the one picture - not sure if that's what it is or just a bad angle. If it is sickle hock, it can cause more stress on the hocks.

It looks like she has long pasterns. This can be good or bad. Bad because it can affect speed sports but good because it can provide with a comfortable ride. But, it does put a lot of tension on the leg which can cause other problems.

Without front/back shots there's no way to see other things like chest and more on the legs.

Overall, I think she looks good. She seems well balanced with minor issues. I don't think she's over the knee - I think it's just a bad picture, but better pictures would help figure that out.

If you need help with the terms this is a good site. I often use it when I give critiques because it's very detailed.

http://extension.unh.edu/4H/4HLearnM/Ch4.pdf

[WashingtonBay]

Ah - we're on the spot now! But - I would agree that these pics aren't really descriptive, let alone flattering. Can you take some more? Try to stand her, as Tiz said, with at least the legs closest to the camera straight up and down... on a level surface, and looking alert and interested. Simply waking her up and engaging her attention changes her balance and posture.

Make it easy to assess her better and we will. :)

[cheval]

Those pictures are a lot better than you usually get when people ask for critiques Which are usually with the horse's head down and eating, awkward angles. So it's definitely a good start picture-wise.

[Tiz]

Also, the legs on the off side should be under the horse a little, so all of them show separately.

[cheval]

This website will give you all the good stuff you need to know about taking the pictures.

http://equisearch.com/horses_care/health/anatomy/conformation_clinic_photo_120808/

[Fork]

Thank you Fork. :)
Sorry, I do not understand the terminology well. What does over at the knee means and what effects does it have on horse's movement?
Standing under herself I understand, but again I don't know how does it affect the horse. Care to explain?
Thanks on the advice on not pushing her too much. :)As others said, the pictures weren't the best to critique on but I felt like giving it a shot. :p

I think I got confused with the shadows in the background.

http://www.triplecrown.com.au/getfile/cd440738-767b-4227-9b5f-796fbbd08516/Knees-toba.aspx

What I see is a slight bow behind your horse's front legs. It's absolutely not a big issue. It could cause minor landing issues for the horse when jumping if it was severe (which it's not). It's hard to know without proper pictures.

Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that her standing under herself means that there's extra stress on the hocks. I don't know if your horse is truly camped under because she's using different leg positions in every picture, and it's hard to tell with the shadows.

ETA: cheval beat me to it. :p It does put extra stress on the hocks.

[Equine_Woman]

I'm with everyone else, they aren't horrid but I don't want to critique based on these photos. I don't feel they are an honest representation of your girl! So while I could tell you what I see based on them it's likely the wrong info! And I don't like being wrong! ;)

[natisha]

She does not have sickle hocks

http://horses-arizona.com/pages/articles/legset/g0284304.gif
Figure 4A. Correct skeletal structure.
Figure 4B. Correct leg set.
Figure 4C. Sickle-hocked or too much set.
Figure 4D. Post-legged or too straight, "coon-footed."
Figure 4E. Camped under or stands under.
Figure 4F. Defects of this magnitude should not be propagated.

[cheval]

Yeah, I said I wasn't sure if it was that or just weird picture. In the picture - sickle hocks aren't always 'that' exaggerated.

[Fork]

Yeah, I said I wasn't sure if it was that or just weird picture. In the picture - sickle hocks aren't always 'that' exaggerated.Hard to tell from the pictures. I don't see a bow, but I do see an odd angle.

[WP~Paint]

I don't know much on critiques, but she is gorgeous and for $75 bucks, I think you got one heck of a deal!

[Petra]

Thank you everyone. I really appreciate your responces. This is the best critique on her I got. Even people I know that seen her in person always told me she looks good, but no explanation on anything. I'm not a person that gets upset over silly stuff, so I'm not sure why were they always so careful.
As I said before. None of the flaws matter, because she is a trail horse. But I do learn from this a lot. Thank you again!
I went to take more pictures. Sorry, I didn't take one from the front. I have some from the back.
She is not on the strait ground so she looks like she is toed out on one picture, on the next one she stood that leg straight, but lifted the other. So I'll post both.
I can take a front picture tomorrow.
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8908&stc=1&d=1285811158
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8909&stc=1&d=1285811226
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8910&stc=1&d=1285811256

[Fork]

Much better pictures! This shows that your mare is not sickle hocked. Your horse is still camped out but less so than before. She may have slightly more difficulty pushing herself over jumps and getting engaged in the hind end in.

ETA: In the third picture, your mare's hind end is very base wide and a little cow hocked.

[cheval]

I agree with Fork. Something still looks weird with that front leg though. I can't tell if she was moving to take a step forward and thats why. It doesn't look as straight as the right.

[Petra]

Thanks Fork and Cheval.
I know not confo shots, but it shows her leg.
Hope this helps.

[Fork]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v420/trappedmemory/crystal2.jpg

http://www.horseinfo.com/images/baswba01.JPG

I've never drawn lines before, but this is what I see.

Hmmmm... I do see something odd with the front leg. Is she standing under herself in the front as well?

[Petra]

http://www.horseinfo.com/images/baswba01.JPG

I've never drawn lines before, but this is what I see.

Hmmmm... I do see something odd with the front leg. Is she standing under herself in the front as well?

Ok, thanks. Now what does it mean?

[Fork]

Ok, thanks. Now what does it mean?It means that she places more weight on the inside of her hoof wall, and more strain on her pastern. This could lead to soundness issues. Some websites suggest that it can lead to ringbone or sidebone. I think that corrective shoeing or trimming might help with this, but you'd have to chat with some of the farriers on the forum.

I'd like to see more pictures to get a really good evaluation. :)

[Petra]

OK, I'll take some more tomorrow. Thank you!

[WashingtonBay]

As I said before. None of the flaws matter, because she is a trail horse. But I do learn from this a lot. Thank you again!

Flaws certainly can matter, even in trail horses, if they are serious, or if you do long or hard trails one day. And I'll also say, she's not just a trail horse. You also enjoy galloping her across your neighboring fields as fast as she wants to go sometimes... Something most "trail horses" don't do. So she gets some hard athletic work. And that's probably when she's most likely to have some kind of acute injury. It's not like she's a light duty horse. Those gallops, no matter how occasional, require just as much athleticism and strength as one who does it all the time.
Just sayin' is all. :)

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8908&stc=1&d=1285811158

First off, can you tell how much better her whole appearance and posture is improved in this shot, over the others where she was dozing with her head down? Her interested appearance and pose puts her a little more 'forward' in her posture and improves her total topline, showing that, unlike the earlier pics, that showed her neck appearing to be tied in very low, with a huge shark-fin of a TB wither sticking up, this pic shows a nice gentle curve of a topline from the poll to the back. She does not have a long neck, it's on the short side... but it's tied in reasonably nicely.

I'm going to draw some lines on this pic and post again in a minute.

[Petra]

Oh WB I didn't mean it that way. I meant it that we do not show or compete.
Of course if I learned that her conformation could create problems for her, I wouldn't let her run.
So far she has not been lame or sore even after running.
The only time I got her really tired was when we walked through mud for a quite while. I didn't realize it's so hard on her. The next day she didn't feel like going faster than a walk. She did enjoy swimming though and the water made her feel much better too.

Looking forward to your picture with lines! :)
Thank you!

[WashingtonBay]

OK - I'm not going to comment on any apparent twisting or turning, because it's too hard to really see that in photographs of this type, for me. Yes, she may be standing toed-out in all the pics, or under or over herself, but given the tendency of many horses to stand like dorks unless very carefully set up, it's just too hard to say. I'll say, for example, that my Bay stands like a complete dork, particularly in the back, most of the time. He'll stand with his hocks knocking together, feet splayed out to the side, much of the time, when he's just lounging around. But I've done a lot of looking at him, and his legs are straight, he's just pretty loosely connected at the hip, so his legs are real flexible in what direction they can rotate around to, and so, he'd have been a pain in the neck to show well at halter, though there's nothing really wrong with his conformation in the back. It makes a great deal of difference, if they're turned or twisted, where the turn is... if it's in the hip, no big deal... if it's in the hock or in the lower joints, then those joints will be under more stress, every step. That's where they'll get arthritic wear and tear.

At any rate, I'm not commenting yet, on whether she has any straightness issues, I'll leave that to others who think they see things to comment about... I'm only commenting on what I think I can see about her balance and structure.

OK - on to horse:

I'm going to draw lines showing the relative placement of the major skeleton. It's good and important to picture how these joints move, bear weight and function together. They are a series of levers and joints. To help picture how they function, particularly the upper bones that are harder to see inside the horse's body, I'll show a couple of other horses in motion, with the lines drawn:

First... a skeleton horse, so you can see the bones inside...

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8916&stc=1&d=1285862497

and how I am representing them with lines... This is a friend's horse she used to have, a Quarter Horse named 'Rusty'. These are line drawings I did a long time ago, for a different thread, talking about something else. They're just for example here.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8917&stc=1&d=1285862497

And I'll say from a balance standpoint, even though he's built, like many QHs, a bit downhill, he has a strong hind that is well balanced compared to his front. What I'm noting is that he's reasonably symmetrical. The length of bone from his hip to his rump is about the same length and angle as his shoulder. The length and angle from his rump to his stifle is about the same length and angle as from his chest to his elbow. Those two comparisons affect his overall balance, strength, and reach in his stride. I'll probably come back and compare this to Crystal, when I get to her.

First though, I'll continue with some more examples and why they matter, because I think you're interested in that. For you, it's not about which horse would win a halter class, it's about how those bones help or hinder them.... here you go: :)

Here is Rusty in a rather extreme 'motion'. You can see how those major bones move, and cause the rest of the leg to move, much like springs and levers. The upper bones, and how they are angled and muscled, are the major power motor for the horse. That's where all the muscles are. They are what drives the horse. The power in a horse's hind end, is in his ability to compress and flex those joints, and then use his muscling to push off with them.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8918&stc=1&d=1285862760

Here is Bay in a couple of different poses. Now... He's an Arab, not exactly made for jumping but you can see that he has a reasonably strong hind end that is able to coil and push off over a jump, and how they flex and drive the legs in a trot.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8919&stc=1&d=1285862942

And finally, my friend's palomino in a canter, showing these joints in action. You can see here, how the rear end joint flexing there to accept the weight, will then be the power stroke to push off again for the next stride.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8920&stc=1&d=1285863056

Her horse has a nice, powerful rear end.

And I'm maxed out for attachments now, before I even get to your horse ;)

With that introduction, I'll do Crystal's lines in the next post. :)

[Petra]

WB I love your explanation! Thank you!!! I think I'm going to save this to my computer so I can come back to it. I love it! Very informative! :)
I'm looking forward to Crystal's critique!
I'm going outside now. Crystal needs a trim. I'll take more pictures of her from the front and back after I'm done.
I've been told she will stand much nicer with her hooves trimmed.

[WashingtonBay]

Now.... Crystal:

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8921&stc=1&d=1285864479

Starting at the top:

(A) Shoulder is long, but reasonably well angled.
(B) The length of this bone affects directly her length of stride in the front, and how high she can lift her shoulder. The longer the bone, the better. Hers is somewhat short, but maybe not unreasonably short for her breed and type. An Arab with real high 'action' would be much longer at (B), for example. Hopefully you could see here, how, if her bone were longer at (B) It would raise the base of her chest where her neck connects, as well as the height and angle of her shoulder.
(C) Not much to say here, except given that she's standing with this foot forward of center, I wouldn't make much of the angle here.
(D) Good length of Cannon bone, not too long, not too short. I will say though, that Crystal does not have good thickness of bone. Her legs are rather small and dainty for her size. This is common in some lines of TB. It also may be the cause of some of the catastrophic injuries on the track. There's just not enough leg there for the extreme stresses put on them. TBs with good bone, go on to make good jumpers and eventers. I'm not sure Crystal would have held up for that. For a reasonable comparison, check out Happy Horselover's recent conformation post of her TB. He's got more bone and structure in his lower leg than I think Crystal has.
(E) Looooong pasterns. If any horse is only as strong as her weakest link, this is hers. Look and imagine, the stresses on that fetlock joint and bone and remember, there's no muscle there. It's just bone, tendon, and connective ligaments. That's a long lever to pull on with a tendon, and would be where I'd expect to see her fatigue first, walking in mud, as you say, working in sand, and even, running. If she places a foot wrong at speed, or if she trips and must catch her self, this is where she'd be vulnerable to strain.

Now lets move to her rear end.

I'm going to post the pic again so I can see it, typing, without having to scroll up :)

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8921&stc=1&d=1285864479

Her bone at F is much shorter than her shoulder. Can you see that? Think back, or look back again, at the example horses above, and their rear ends. She's not symmetrical front to back, she doesn't match. Ideally, I think we'd like to see more length in the rear than in the front. So which one is off? Can you have a horse with a strong rear end who has an even stronger front end? Sure... you see this a lot in drafts. But in her case it's her rear end that is undersized, she has a weaker than ideal rear end. She'd have probably not done real well on the track. She'd probably not make a real strong jumper, if you wanted her to jump the big jumps. Would she probably still out-jump and out-run my Arab Bay? Probably :) She's just not going to hold up in the company of other TBs. Compare, again, to Happy Horselover's TB. I think he has a nice strong rear motor. And it's important, for her. She jumps him.

Other angles from her stifle down are good in the back. Probably also is long in the rear pasterns as in the front, but given that she's stronger in the front and will probably use her front more than the rear... she's probably still more vulnerable to strain under normal circumstances in the front. Put it this way... she's going to tend to drive the most from the front end. If she had a real power house motor in the back, that would put more strain on the back-end structures than she probably will the way you ride and use her. If you were to try to get her to achieve the high level of rear end collection and impulsion a dressage horse would need, for example, she might be limited. But I'm not guessing you'll do that.

Hope it all makes sense. :) Ask if it doesn't.... anyone else... comment if you agree... or not! :)

[WashingtonBay]

Here's just another comparison, not of conformation as a whole, because they're completely different breed and type, but to compare pastern length and angle. Bay also has reasonably long pasterns, though not as long as Crystal's.

Here he is standing....

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8922&stc=1&d=1285868025

... and under stress in the trot:

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=8923&stc=1&d=1285868025

You can see how much stress that joint goes through. They absorb a lot of the concussion on landing. Horses with a lot of length and angle there are a pleasure to ride... this, along with a lot of angle in the shoulder, provides a lot of the shock absorber of the horse in motion, and nicely angled pasterns provide an softer ride in the saddle. They provide the spring. You could compare to a horse with real short, upright pasterns. They're like a jackhammer to ride.

In other words, those angles really help make a good pleasure horse to ride. They absorb the shock. But in absorbing the shock of movement, they also suffer the wear and strain of that movement in their soft tissues.

It's not that the short pasterned horse is better, they're not. They have to absorb the shock somewhere, they they often will suffer the wear and tear in the bone itself. Where they don't often pull and strain tendons, they suffer too much impact in the bone which can show up in the form of ringbone, sidebone, and other hard structure wear and tear.

[Petra]

Wow WB you have done such good job explainig everything. Thank you so much!
It's much easier to see and understand everything when you draw the lines.
Well, now I understand why she is so much smoother ride than our other horses. :)
I took Raven to ride in a friend's pasture yesterday. I don't think I could sit her trot and canter bareback like I do on Crystal.

[WashingtonBay]

Sorry I didn't do it before... It takes a long time to write and draw it all out (longer if I didn't have all those examples drawn already), and often when I'm clicking around on the forum, I don't think I have the time. I probably usually do :D You just have to make me ;)

[Fork]

Wow, WB. I'm fascinated in your conformation critique even though it isn't my horse. Does this mean that ideally, you want to have a symmetrical front and hind? This thread has helped me too.

I'm going to go and draw some lines. :)

[WashingtonBay]

Close to symmetrical in size and angle looks the most balanced to the eye, and ideally, with equal or more total length of bone in the rear, than in the front. That'd be a strong power horse, for both running or jumping... anything athletic.

The tricky part in drawing the lines is correctly placing the point of the chest, and the point of the rear. They're hidden inside a well-fed horse, and you have to look for clues in the muscling, and sometimes, see them in motion, to correctly place them. Very difficult to find the point of the rump on Bay's standing picture above, for example. But you can tell where and how long that bone is in his trotting picture under it.

on edit:
Lots of people assess the angle of the shoulder and the hip. But to me, they don't really mean a thing without the next joint and bone down... Their length and angle. Put the two together, and you've got the front and rear wheel drive of the horse. It's how those bones and joints move and relate to each other that are how the horse gets his power and motion.

[Petra]

Sorry I didn't do it before... It takes a long time to write and draw it all out (longer if I didn't have all those examples drawn already), and often when I'm clicking around on the forum, I don't think I have the time. I probably usually do :D You just have to make me ;)

No worries. I know you are pretty busy. It's not like it was something important to me to have her critiqued. I was just interested. I like to learn new stuff, especially when it has something to do with my horse. :)
I'm not experienced, so I don't see her for what she really is. :) Your explanation really helped. It's funny, because I don't even notice the changes in her. Only when I compare her pictures to last year's I notice how much she has changed.

[Pi and Tofu]

I like the lines, like the assessment.

Usually don't critique trail horses; really, what horse isn't right for that job?

"Well, she is a good looking horse, with a good tie-in, strong back, good angles. However, I don't think that she will do well at her job as a trail horse, simply because she is missing a leg. She is asymmetrical and just seems to look unbalanced to my trained eye. On a good note, she might be able to perform light trail riding because it appears that she does still have 3 legs, which show good length of bone and good hock and pastern angles. You will need to make sure that she is appropriately wrapped after exercise. The plus is that you will be able to get a great deal on second-hand wraps."

Better pictures will help to see what is really there. However, the lines emphasis a weak hind end. When she is cut into thirds, she won't be even. Like to see a flatter, more open hip angle. Wouldn't have picked her for a jumping career, doesn't look like she can really reach under, but can't see how it would hurt on a trail ride. Have seen horses with straight shoulders actually be very comfortable, but she has the angles that make you think comfortable gait, with the exception of the hind end, as you have previously stated. The steep shoulder angle and the long pasterns spell comfort, although a shorter pastern would help with that "weak link."

WB noted that she lacks bone, which is true, and she is sporting a little jewelry. Since she is being kept light and since you don't look heavy in the pictures, with the type of work that will be asked of her, do not think this will hurt. Since you noted that you like to gallop her in the field, probably should work on muscling her up with long trot work, so as to build up the stifle (which I disagree with WB as it looks a little weak) and loin. Good wither, short back, little short in the neck, could be finer in the throatlatch.

Definitely some nice features, looks like a nice riding horse.

[WashingtonBay]

Usually don't critique trail horses; really, what horse isn't right for that job? ... On a good note, she might be able to perform light trail riding because it appears that she does still have 3 legs, which show good length of bone and good hock and pastern angles. You will need to make sure that she is appropriately wrapped after exercise. The plus is that you will be able to get a great deal on second-hand wraps."

Smart A$$! :p


I disagree that any horse can trail ride, there's a lot of horses who either aren't nimble on tricky footing or can't carry a saddle and heavy rider all day. Being able to be out all day over a lot of miles requires a certain amount of strength and endurance.

I will agree though, that the bar of athletic ability may not be as high for trail as it is for say Grand Prix eventer. ;)

[Pi and Tofu]

I will concede that point to you, as was relating everything to myself. It is all about me, right?

So, as long as the horse doesn't lose a gasket mentally, they should be able to handle light Florida (no hills!) trail riding. Even the really goofy looking horses that look like they were put together by someone who was was eating more of the clay than sculpting with it, can handle a joe-average, not too heavy rider, for a couple of hours a week, without coming up completely lame, all feet up in the air, the next day.

Sooo, even if all you can find to say is "nice color!," it makes it hard to fault the horse for it's job. Now if they are doing competitive trail riding, 'nother thought.

Long way of saying that I prefer judging h/j types. Good analysis by the way, lines are helpful for the simple like myself.

[natisha]

Smart A$$! :p


I disagree that any horse can trail ride, there's a lot of horses who either aren't nimble on tricky footing or can't carry a saddle and heavy rider all day. Being able to be out all day over a lot of miles requires a certain amount of strength and endurance.

I will agree though, that the bar of athletic ability may not be as high for trail as it is for say Grand Prix eventer. ;)Don't forget the ever important mental attitude for a good trail horse. They often need to place their feet exactly where told, wait patiently while various things are going on, jump on questionable ground, be aware of their surrounds without being a Nervous Nellie, move off of & around the rider's leg & a whole list of other skills.
I know the discussion is conformation...just sayin'

[Pi and Tofu]

ace promazine - just saying...

[natisha]

ace promazine - just saying...:hysterical:

[Tiz]

Ah, horsemanship in the year 2010.