View Full Version : Why I Bear Arms
3equines
10-18-2010, 07:57 AM
This could have been prevented with a .38 or .44
http://www.peninsuladailynews.com/article/20101018/NEWS/310189996/goat-examined-as-part-of-investigation-of-goring
The man was a prominent citizen in the medical community.
The goat has a history of aggressive behavior towards people.
It is now legal to carry firearms in the National Parks if you have a concealed weapons permit.
I would rather be in jail ,alive, with a lawsuit than dead on a mountain.
WashingtonBay
10-18-2010, 08:01 AM
I read that yesterday... The thing none of the articles pointed out is that this is probably the height of the rut, isn't it?
I think it may be a combination of that, and too-tame park goat behavior. That would have given him the history.
The rest of us, outside the park, could probably not catch one if we wanted to. Pretty unusual circumstance.
3equines
10-18-2010, 08:05 AM
Yep, I would suspect the rut is on... and I think that there needs to be more education efforts on behalf of the Park Service about animal behavior during rut season, at least post something on the trailheads during the fall.
GrungeEquestrian
10-18-2010, 08:39 AM
Yep, I would suspect the rut is on... and I think that there needs to be more education efforts on behalf of the Park Service about animal behavior during rut season, at least post something on the trailheads during the fall.
I think that's very good proposal. I know even out here in Illinois there has been horror stories involving serious injury with bucks during rut season.
WashingtonBay
10-18-2010, 08:47 AM
The other issue that might get brought up in all this is.... Mountain goats, though well established now on the Peninsula, are not native. They were introduced and planted in the Olympics in the early 1900s for the expressed purpose of hunting. They were brought in to attract big game hunters and promote the area as a destination for hunters and outfitters. They are not native.
Two factions have opinions when they consider that, and the two groups; purist environmentalists and big game hunters, come as close as they ever come to agreement on a solution. There should be a hunt to control the population (or eliminate it according to the enviros). Of course, allowing a hunt inside National Parks for any reason is a really hard sell... No matter how much it's needed to control both the behavior of park animals, and their numbers.
JackieB
10-18-2010, 09:19 AM
That's really shocking. I could certainly understand a goat being dangerous, but I would not have worried too much about my ability to back away from it until it stopped coming toward me. What a tragedy.
Buckpoco
10-18-2010, 09:56 AM
I was amazed at many of the comments that went with the article 3E posted....much compassion for the goat, none for the human...what's wrong with this thinking?
3equines
10-18-2010, 10:32 AM
In my book, we are still the top of the food chain and the ones given the power to make decisions regarding the fate of aggressive animals, AND agressive humans, who take the lives of others. Not only was a human life lost here, it was the life of a man who contributed to the community generously with his knowledge, skills, and money.
I was raised under the doorstep of Olympic National Park and remember the helicopter roundups and controversy surrounding the Goats in the 1980's and 90's. They have done considerable damage to the alpine ecosystem and contributed to massive erosion above the timberline. Over the past two decades they hove become very habituated to people and their population is soaring. Yet the Park Service turns a blind eye to the reported incidents and quietly closes the door on the topic.
I agree with WB, a controlled hunt would be a win-win situation. People would pay huge amounts of money for a tag to hunt goats in the National Park. I'm not kidding you, there are elk tags going at $5,000 apiece in units that are controlled hunt only. The Park could reap the rewards on all sides, but would also have to stand in the line of fire from the very same fuzzy environmentalist/animal rights hunters who want a pristine wilderness - which the goats are not a part of, biologically speaking.
Apparently this goat was identified as "aggressive" some time ago, and the powers that be were "monitoring" it.
More muddled thinking, is all. If the goat was a problem in that setting, euth it. Simple.
JackieB
10-18-2010, 11:45 AM
More muddled thinking, is all. If the goat was a problem in that setting, euth it. Simple.
Well I'm sure they weren't thinking that it was going to potentially kill someone! An aggressive bear is an easy, albeit unfortunate, decision. An agressive goat probably did (at the time) deserve more leeway. I'm sure they will euthanize any in the future, but I wouldn't fault the government for not putting this one down previously.
JackieB
10-18-2010, 11:50 AM
...much compassion for the goat, none for the human...
Sure there is compassion for the man who lost his life. Go back and read the comments. I can post them for you if you're having a hard time digging them out of the list.
natisha
10-18-2010, 12:42 PM
It's a shame that someone goes for a hike & ends up dead but I'm not sure how anyone could have known exactly which goats were trouble, maybe they all are at different times.
I don't know much about Mt Goat behavior but if they are anything like regular goats a water gun would stop them, maybe not during an actual attack but perhaps from them following. How big are those goats?
I don't think a person could outrun a determined goat. I know I couldn't & I have the dent in my thigh to prove it.
This is a goat, J.http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMAT6680Fa09/Yoon/Final%20Project%20-%20Goat/goat_1.jpg
This is a Mountain goat, which can weigh up to 300 pounds. Yes, I think an "aggressive" one should have been taken seriously from the beginning.http://www.scottandmichelle.net/scott/myshots/images/mountaingoat.jpg
natisha
10-18-2010, 12:57 PM
300# ??!! Forget a water gun, I want a real one.
WashingtonBay
10-18-2010, 12:59 PM
How big are those goats?
From: Mountain Goats, Mountain Goat Pictures, Mountain Goat Facts - National Geographic (http://animals.nationalgeographic.com/animals/mammals/mountain-goat/)
Map
http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/graphic/map-mountain-goat-160-20124-cb1273159800.gif
Mountain Goat Range
Fast Facts
Type:Mammal
Diet:Herbivore
Average life span in the wild:9 to 12 years
Size:Height at shoulder, 3.5 ft (1 m)
Weight:100 to 300 lbs (45 to 136 kg)
Group name:Herd
Size relative to a 6-ft (2-m) man:
http://images.nationalgeographic.com/wpf/media-live/graphic/size-mountaingoat-160-2804_-cb1273159800.gif
I'm a little surprised they don't range bigger than that. I've seen them in captivity and they seemed bigger than that, though they may be all hair!
I'd have described them as being the size of my pony. 4-500 pounds.
http://www.eliteoutfitters.com/images/Scott-mountain-goat-1.jpg
natisha
10-18-2010, 01:18 PM
I think most things in captivity get bigger, better food.
Ragnar Danneskjold
10-18-2010, 05:36 PM
Having wild animals become habituated the presence of people is not going to end well for either the people or the animals. There should be a hunting season for the goats. Is it really true that there's no hunt at all for them? That's crazy.
They need to associate people with death, and fear people, just like cougar should fear dogs.
Ragnar Danneskjold
10-18-2010, 05:42 PM
It occurs to me too, that if Mr. Boardman had shot and killed the goat he'd be facing some serious fines and maybe jailtime. But- he'd be alive.
With no previous recorded attacks by mtn goats... He would have a sceptic game officer, I think.
WashingtonBay
10-18-2010, 05:52 PM
There's Mountain Goat hunting in WA.... just not inside the Olympic (or any) National Park. There are some areas in the Cascades where there is a Mtn Goat season. I googled around a little this morning to see if there was a hunt in any of the forest and private lands outside the park on the Peninsula and didn't exactly find any... Mountain Goat Permit Hunt Area Boundary Maps | Washington Department of Fish & Wildlife (http://www.wdfw.wa.gov/hunting/permits/hunt_info/goat_hunt_areas/)
Every time I see this thread, I expect to find a post by Michelle Obama.
WashingtonBay
10-18-2010, 07:23 PM
~chuckling~
(Keeps thinking the same thing! :innocent:)
Ragnar Danneskjold
10-18-2010, 09:12 PM
Her designer is the one that needs some kind of violent intervention.
JackieB
10-18-2010, 10:54 PM
Every time I see this thread, I expect to find a post by Michelle Obama.
Why her? I don't understand what you mean.
Jackie, you don't get NBC, CBS, ABC, MSNBC, or CNN way up there is Michigan?
Why her? Because of all the information about Mrs. Obama's sleeveless clothing, and her amazing, beyond compare "toned" arms, those outlets have provided over the last few years.
I mean, Rome is on fire, but at least they are "reporting" something vital to the country.
3equines
10-19-2010, 11:31 AM
:rolleyes: you know...... bare arms.......
3equines
10-19-2010, 11:33 AM
.....as opposed to this:
WashingtonBay
10-19-2010, 11:53 AM
Saw followup story today on national news - FoxNews...
Said when the park rangers arrived, they only could throw rocks at the goat to get it to leave.
WHY are National Park rangers not armed? Or have at their disposal ~something~ that could be used to fend off or tranquilize an aggressive animal? I mean... besides goats, there are cougar, bear, elk, other wildlife that might occasionally need to be managed, or even put out of their misery if injured.
Saw followup story today on national news - FoxNews...
Said when the park rangers arrived, they only could throw rocks at the goat to get it to leave.
WHY are National Park rangers not armed? Or have at their disposal ~something~ that could be used to fend off or tranquilize an aggressive animal? I mean... besides goats, there are cougar, bear, elk, other wildlife that might occasionally need to be managed, or even put out of their misery if injured.
I can imagine the outcry if a park ranger had harmed the goat. "They were here first!" No they weren't. "We encroached on his territory!" Not really. He was just a rutty old goat, often in a foul mood. And so much more.
WashingtonBay
10-19-2010, 04:47 PM
Well, they shot it later anyway... I'd imagine less outcry when the goat is still standing over the bleeding man, than later when he wasn't doin' nuthin.
Point is, they didn't seem well equipped for an animal emergency, and they should be.
Buckpoco
10-19-2010, 05:03 PM
Sure there is compassion for the man who lost his life. Go back and read the comments. I can post them for you if you're having a hard time digging them out of the list.
I'm sure there are some compassionate comments for the human...but too many who show no compassion for the man who died...compassion for humans is not at all apparant in their comments. All of us on here love animals...but an awful lot of people go overboard. A man lost his life...a tragedy.:(
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