Having HUGE problems with my two (buddy sour to the extreme)

[Whitedresswind]

Hey everyone, I said I would give you an update with the horses when I get pictures, but I figured that I would go ahead, and just ask some stuff along with the update. Well things have been really rough with Ickabod. Well the good news is, is that Ickabod and Berma get along really well. They are both healthy and happy, and are doing great. Now the bad news...:huh:

Ok, so I really have been wanting to ride, but every time I try something pops up. The first issue is that Ickabod has really bad buddy sourness. He won't leave her side for a minute, and when we lead Berma, Ickabod is right there trailing her. Now, yes, I have tried leading Ickabod further behind Berma, but he ripped the rope out of my hands, and galloped back to her. So we figured, we could try riding Berma inside the fence with Ickabod, well, Ickabod still followed, and it annoyed Berma, so she like pins her ears, and gets really kicky, and irritable. So, then we tried riding Ickabod and Berma at the same time. I was on Ickabod and my sister on Berma inside the fence. Well, when Berma was trotting Ickabod began bucking, and lets just say, it ended with me being out cold on the ground, and Ickabod back at Bermas side. So then I started lunging Ickabod, he bucks, and kicks, and pulls back and all the bad things a horse can really do on the lunge line, lol, but I somehow I stood firm (not to say he didn't pull me around) but everytime I lunge him he does the same things. So lunging wasn't really helping anything. So then we took Berma outside the fence, and led her around a little. Of course Ickabod went spalastic and was galloping, and rearing and bucking around the field. I was really worried he would jump the fence, he was nieghing, and breathing really hard. And Berma wasn't even that far away from him. He just went crazy. So I don't know how I am suppose to help him with his buddy sourness if he does that, because Im not letting him go splastic like that again, because I know sooner or later he will jump the fence.
Through all this Berma is really nonchaulant, she just is sorta like "whatever" she dosn't mind being away from him, and his craziness does not put her into a tizzy. Her problem though is that its nearly impossible to bridle her, if she sees the bridle in your hands. (I am going to change bits soon, because I think thats what it is) and also when unbridling her, today she lifted her head waaaay up and pulled back witha little rear, why does she do this? I know you have to be careful when unbridling so as not to hit their teeth, but the bit wasn't even coming out of her mouth yet.
Well, thats how its been going, I havn't been riding since Ickabod bucked me off, and its mainly because there is no way to ride Berma with Ickabod acting like this. Any tips or advice would be great, I try to keep cool, but it gets a little frustrating. Thanks everyone

[WashingtonBay]

Hi WhiteDress... The only way to solve it is either to separate them permanently, ie. separate runs where they may see each other but can't get to each other, or successful and frequent separations so they learn they won't die when separated. The second carries the risks you're already aware of. He may jump the fence and he may pull out of your hands or throw you. (were you really out cold? Did you go to the doctor? yikes!) And everytime they get away from you, they get worse. Every time you can talk them down, they get a little better.

I'm afraid you need what you've always needed, a lot of hands-on help and training with these horses. It's a lot to take on out there by yourself, and the hard knocks can be really dangerous. I would recommend getting back in touch with the trainer you were working with. Weekly lessons. Your place, your horses. I think you just have to.

Another more 'practical' solution is to work them together, but focus on the very basics. Tie one to an unbreakable tree while you work the other horse very nearby, in a nice, quiet mannerly fashion, then switch them. Work slowly on them working a little farther apart without losing their composure. This is not a one day fix or a one week fix... it's every day for a month or more. Baby steps. Remember the business-like approach to them we've talked about before.

[Whitedresswind]

Yes, I understand, thanks WB. Fortunately if I need help I have several people to go to, but unfortunately, they can't really do much to help. I still have a few lessons left with the trainer, but that was mostly just for lessons, not actaul training. Its like Ickabod has a never ending supply of energy, and he is not on any grains or supplements at the moment. Berma is very calm, so that is good, basically my answer is as the solution to many things is, alot of hard work, and caution. thanks again.

[Blue]

Aw, I'm sorry, I wish I could help you.

Might I suggest using a hackamore on Berma?

[cloedoll]

I won't comment on the buddy sourness because I think WashingtonBay and a few other give much more thorough advice and I just can't compete with 'em. ;) With the head tossing after taking the bit out of her mouth, it could be a few things. Has she had her teeth floated lately? I wouldn't go by what the previous owners said, have a dentist out to check. If her previous owners ripped it out of her mouth, she could be anticipating that - just continue to take your time removing/putting on the bridle/bit and she will overcome it. Let her know she is a good girl whenever the bridle is on and taken off. You could maybe try a hackamore with her as well. I'm glad Berma behaves herself! :)

[42many]

I ditto WB for the buddy sour issue.

For the bridling issue, I would try to do some work with her on the halter first for dropping her head down. I'm tired, so hopefully this will make sense - I would put the halter on her and then love on her standing still some. After she relaxes (could be just a minute or two), I would put my hand up right between her ears and gently put pressure on, gradually increasing until she responds. The instant she responds by going down AT ALL (even just a little bob), stop pressure and take your hand away. Repeat several times, every time you interact with her, with the end goal (after many many times if needed - take it at her pace!) being a light pressure drops her head pretty far down very calmly.

Then, take that same strategy and incorporate it into your bridling and especially taking the bridle off (as that seems to be where your main problem is?). So, for instance, you finish your ride and get off then go to remove the bridle. Unbuckle the straps on the bridle and then pause (maybe love on her) until she is relaxed. Put light pressure on her head, causing her to drop it, then very smoothly without fuss slide the bridle off over her ears, making sure (as you know!) to be careful not to bang on her teeth. It is much easier to avoid doing stuff like that when you are both relaxed and not in battle mode.

[Buckpoco]

We have the same problem right now with one walker. He's just three and is way too attached to our 6 year old walker. The six year old is fine but not the three year old. What I'm doing right now is making the six year old disappear in front of the house (my hubby holds him) and when my three year old gets upset I round pen him. I don't let up until he decides that it's really nice being with me and doesn't pay to act up. However, he is lazy and won't kill himself in the pen. If he just went indefinitely and could hurt himself I'd find another method. After about five minutes he stays with me and doesn't look for his friend. I know this is just the beginning, but it's a start.:rolleyes:

[Cheesmnky]

When dealing with buddy sour problems, it reminds me of an article I read about dogs with separation anxiety problems. Take them out for longer and longer periods of time apart from each other. Starting with a few minutes, to a few more, few more, and do something nice with him. Maybe let him graze, etc. DON'T take him back if he's being a brat- that will reinforce that "I act big and scary and she'll let me go back to Berma" And well.. it will happen over and ove rbecause he'll learn that's how it's done.

YOU are the alpha herd leader. I had a horse once that every time I went to get him, I'd have to push him around(make his feet move) to remind him that from that point on, I was in charge. Round penning is great too until they relax enough to chew and show you that they are giving in to you being in charge.

Eh... either way it's no fun. I feel for you- I think we've all dealt with this at one point or another.

Good luck!

[Miracle Whip]

Tie the horse to a tree out of sight of his buddy. Repeat daily.

[Harleys Owner]

EVERY DAY for awhile, saddle the horse and leave him tied up safely for 5-8 hours. Once the horse has learned to stand quietly then start riding.

[Buckpoco]

When you say to "tie him safely", I assume you mean without a breakaway halter? If he gets upset and breaks the halter, then he's learning that he can pull and get away, right? So we don't want him to be able to break the halter...

[WashingtonBay]

I agree with both of you (MW and HO) that it's a good tactic... but one with some risks of it getting out of hand. If the horse is a real problem I'm a little nervous about her trying that by herself - without some good help in how to tie safely and keep it from becoming a wreck, so I suggested she tie one horse in sight first while she worked the other one, to try to ease her way into that.

She's a teenager without a whole lot of experience.

[Harleys Owner]

Buckpoco...right:) Tie safely. Short, above the head, to something solid, with something solid that won't break.

WB: From everything WDW has told us, I think her getting help is not an option. She is going to have to deal with it on her own. The best way IMO is tying the horse. As long as she understands "safely" and she's had enough advise on that issue, and as long as she understands to not try to run in and rescue the horse if it throws a fit.

Don't do anything else till the horse stands quietly no matter where the other horse is.

[Country Girl 43]

I have to agree with WB on this one. I had/have the same issues with my horses whenever Ladybird leaves the other two behind....oh my gosh, their world comes to an end! But constant ground work with Dallas has paid off. He still gets alittle high strung if Ladybird leaves, but is not the lunatic he used to be. My Dreamer on the other hand still goes crazy. I have to stall her up. But this is mostly because I haven't been able to work with her lately.

Take your time....it won't happen over night. It took several months of constant work. Most of all be careful!

[WashingtonBay]

Buckpoco...right:) Tie safely. Short, above the head, to something solid, with something solid that won't break.

WB: From everything WDW has told us, I think her getting help is not an option. She is going to have to deal with it on her own. The best way IMO is tying the horse. As long as she understands "safely" and she's had enough advise on that issue, and as long as she understands to not try to run in and rescue the horse if it throws a fit.

Don't do anything else till the horse stands quietly no matter where the other horse is.

I just want to make sure we've covered that base (the underlined part) thoroughly before we recommend this, and I'm not sure she has been instructed on that.

[Whitedresswind]

sorry, lol I forgot about this thread. Thanks for all the great advice guys! Yes, don't worry, I am an extremely cautious person, and I have been through enough "crazies" to know what horses can and will do. I actually put Ickabod in the paddock and gave him some hay and rode Berma in the field. Of course she was near, and in sight, but he didn't seem to mind. I always think out the situations to ensure I have a plan, I am very aware of the danger involved. Thanks again

[mandisue]

Well when we had Drummer here he was EXTREMELY buddy sour, never been alone his entire life, so I tied him with a rope halter/lead, and a reg halter and lead ( twice the effectiveness ) and electrified the fence. So if he did get loose he'd get shocked, and I gradually took Sui farther away from him.

[Harleys Owner]

I just want to make sure we've covered that base (the underlined part) thoroughly before we recommend this, and I'm not sure she has been instructed on that.

Ok, then let's go over "safely" again.

1. Tie short, 1 foot of slack

2. Use a halter and rope what will not break. I recommend a rope halter tied correctly, you can find that on the internet, with the rope tied into the halter, no clip.

3. Make sure what ever you tie too won't break. I recommend tying to a solid wall that has the tie ring secured to a post and bolted in very securely. If no wall is available a tree, or tie post works. A post needs to be sunk into the ground and cemented in with no possibility that it could be pulled out of the ground, and once again the tie ring needs to go all the way thru the post with a good bolt holding it. If a tree is used tie the rope so it can't slip down the tree, put is in a fork of the tree.

4. Tie the rope at least even with the withers, preferable above the head.

5. Make sure there is nothing behind/around the horse that he can get tangled in.

6. Do not rescue the horse if he is throwing a fit. He needs to learn fit throwing will not get him turned lose or that someone will come and be company for him.

Anything I missed?

[Harleys Owner]

sorry, lol I forgot about this thread. Thanks for all the great advice guys! Yes, don't worry, I am an extremely cautious person, and I have been through enough "crazies" to know what horses can and will do. I actually put Ickabod in the paddock and gave him some hay and rode Berma in the field. Of course she was near, and in sight, but he didn't seem to mind. I always think out the situations to ensure I have a plan, I am very aware of the danger involved. Thanks again

But how does Ickabod act when he is the one being rode while the other horse is loose?

There can be a difference.

IMO. When you ride Berma, Ickabod should be tied up somewhere. It's OK if he is tied where he can see you, but leaving him loose in a familiar place, is not a good test/exercise to teach him to get over the buddy problem.

[Whitedresswind]

Thanks HO, when Ickabod is being ridden and Berma is loose its fine, I don't ride Ickabod as often, but I will try to tie him, thanks again for the help, I will tell you how it works

[WashingtonBay]

Pretty good list Becky.... thanks! I've also reposted my thread on avoiding tie hazards originally posted last year, I hope to have good info posted on that too, for everyone who missed it the first time around. (Horsemanship 101 - Tying (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=613))

Whitedress - It sounds real good that you could put him in the paddock with some hay to keep him busy and that worked. I like to have one enclosure that is more secure than anything else that is a safe place the horses can be put when you're doing something like taking one away. Make sure that enclosure is safe. :)

It would be a good idea to separate them as often as daily for a few hours, perhaps feed them in separate paddocks on opposite sides of the barn if possible, so they get used to going in and out of each other's sight every day, and they learn they won't die, the horse always comes back, and it's routine and normal for one or the other to leave for awhile. That's good practice even when you don't have time to actually work them.

[Harleys Owner]

Of course Ickabod went spalastic and was galloping, and rearing and bucking around the field. I was really worried he would jump the fence, he was nieghing, and breathing really hard. And Berma wasn't even that far away from him. He just went crazy. So I don't know how I am suppose to help him with his buddy sourness if he does that, becau

Then what did all this mean?

[Whitedresswind]

This was when we took Berma OUT of the fence without him. we wern't riding, just leading her.

[Harleys Owner]

It would be a good idea to separate them as often as daily for a few hours, perhaps feed them in separate paddocks on opposite sides of the barn if possible, so they get used to going in and out of each other's sight every day, and they learn they won't die, the horse always comes back, and it's routine and normal for one or the other to leave for awhile. That's good practice even when you don't have time to actually work them.

I agree also, that the horses needed to be in separated as much as possible, permanently if possible.

[Harleys Owner]

This was when we took Berma OUT of the fence without him. we wern't riding, just leading her.

Well, don't you ever want to ride the horse OUT?
ETA: Rather then avoiding situations that cause problems, the problems need to be fixed if you want a well trained, safe horse.

[Suzi]

I agree with WB first suggestion abt seperating them. Unfortunatly it will be dramatic for Icabod. Consider picking up some calming paste to use when you seperate them. I don;t advoacate drugs for every problem, but if you are without back up help and your concerned he'll get hurt......... As for the bridling issue, be sure to have pain issues checked, Has anyone checked the teeth? Does she show any discomfort while the bit is in place ? It may be a habit shes picked up that will take time and gentleness to resolve.