The future of HealthCare(if you're a king)

[natisha]

Saudi King takes up the entire VIP wing at New York hospital (http://www.baywindfarm.com/p/pagesix/saudi_king_takes_york_the_entire_EypM45miPSYGs0Hd9 0LfVO)

Last Updated: 1:30 AM, November 30, 2010
Posted: 1:19 AM, November 30, 2010
Comments: 64 (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#comments_block)
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Saudi Arabia's King Abdullah is causing his own diplomatic drama at New York Presbyterian Hospital/Weill Cornell Medical Center, where the 86 year-old monarch has commandeered an entire wing as he recovers from back surgery on the VIP floor.
King Abdullah -- who repeatedly exhorted the US to "cut the head off the snake" by launching military strikes to destroy Iran's nuclear program, according to leaked diplomatic cables -- has forced other patients out by block-booking the hospital's top treatment and recovery rooms.
A family member of one patient told us, "The king has taken the entire luxury treatment wing and booked out all the rooms, even though they are empty and he doesn't need them, to protect his privacy.
Saudi King Abdullah bin Abdul Aziz


"Patients are grumbling that they have been moved out to other areas of the hospital, and that despite there being a number of unused VIP treatment rooms, they can't be moved into them because they are all reserved for the king of Saudi Arabia."
The king underwent surgery for a blood clot and a slipped disc last week. Witnesses told us his security army is a visible presence both outside and inside the hospital.
One law enforcement source told us that Abdullah -- who was visited in Saudi Arabia by four Cornell doctors who advised him he had to have the surgery in New York -- is a generous donor to the hospital and visited a month prior to his surgery.
Abdullah arrived in town on Monday of last week with an enormous entourage. He chartered three flights to JFK, arrived with a massive security team and a film crew, and left the airport in a convoy of 40 vehicles, including 20 for luggage alone.
The Saudi embassy in Washington, DC, didn't return calls seeking comment. A spokeswoman for the hospital said, "I can confirm he is still a patient here," but declined to comment further.



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[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Good for him. He can afford it, and the hospital probably needs the boost.

But the days of people flying to the U.S. for the best possible care are about over. It's Americans with money that will be flying elsewhere to get the treatments they need.

[FredRock]

I say good for the hospital. It's not often someone can afford to take up the VIP wing and not have to hassle with insurance to get the money. They'll also get a good amount of donations in he future if he feels the care was good. People can bicker all they want, but money talks.

Our healthcare system is awful- 35th in the world, and there is already a steady practice of the rich getting surgeries outside of the US for better care at a lower cost.

[natisha]

I say good for the hospital. It's not often someone can afford to take up the VIP wing and not have to hassle with insurance to get the money. They'll also get a good amount of donations in he future if he feels the care was good. People can bicker all they want, but money talks.

Our healthcare system is awful- 35th in the world, and there is already a steady practice of the rich getting surgeries outside of the US for better care at a lower cost.I don't doubt the better cost but I do question the better care. I've talked to many nurses from other places, quite scary.

[JackieB]

But the days of people flying to the U.S. for the best possible care are about over.

The sky is falling!!! The sky is falling!!!! :p:p

[FredRock]

I don't doubt the better cost but I do question the better care. I've talked to many nurses from other places, quite scary.

True. My source didn't specify anything for surgeries performed or where the surgeries took place. They simply said it was out of the US. I'd be interested to see what country is most popular and for what surgery.

[cowgirlup@idaho]

I didn't know hospitals had VIP rooms :huh:

[gabhainn]

I don't doubt the better cost but I do question the better care. I've talked to many nurses from other places, quite scary.
yeah i work with a nurse from England and one from Canada (2 of the places they are trying to model the new healthcare system on) and they both talk about how atrocious the care is in those countries, like having to wait for 4 months to get your gall bladder out, or dying of peritonitis because your appendix burst while you were on a waiting list for surgery, and dont even talk about France, where the dr will leave a surgery patient under anesthesia to go to lunch and have 2 or 3 glasses of wine to wash it down. I have worked in the healthcare field for 20 years, all over the world at that, and I wonder sometimes who does these polls and what their criteria is. The big difference i think is that quite often American patients feel entitled and if they dont get everything they want the way they want they throw a fit. While in Europe and elsewhere patient rights are very differently defined..........Kevin

[JackieB]

yeah i work with a nurse from England and one from Canada (2 of the places they are trying to model the new healthcare system on) and they both talk about how atrocious the care is in those countries, like having to wait for 4 months to get your gall bladder out, or dying of peritonitis because your appendix burst while you were on a waiting list for surgery,

I don't doubt that those stories are true. But whenever I ask people from those countries directly, I just don't hear those types of stories. Or at least not any more commonly than we would hear such horror stories here in the US.

We've done this one the forum before. Start a thread asking our forumers from Canada, the UK, or the Republic of Ireland about their experiences and those of their family members. They come back saying it's really not bad. Or at least they have in the past when we asked.

[natisha]

I don't doubt that those stories are true. But whenever I ask people from those countries directly, I just don't hear those types of stories. Or at least not any more commonly than we would hear such horror stories here in the US.

We've done this one the forum before. Start a thread asking our forumers from Canada, the UK, or the Republic of Ireland about their experiences and those of their family members. They come back saying it's really not bad. Or at least they have in the past when we asked.They may not say it's bad but they also can't compare their care there to the care here if they never were treated here. People get used to things & accept what they are familiar with. Most hospitals here have private rooms, private bathrooms, available diagnostics, OR rooms at the ready-that kind of stuff.

At the VA where I work there is one unit that still has 2-4 patients per room. A curtain divides the beds. You can hear & smell everything that goes on. The bathroom is down the hall, most can't get to it so use a bedpan, which then some lucky nurse gets to carry down the hall. Not much rest when your roommate screams all night or is on a bowel prep.

Now bad facilities aren't the worst things & the above scene isn't the norm in most hospitals but I do feel sorry for the guys who have to use budget Gov. run hospitals.
When you add in new or bad doctors it is not a place I would want to be.

[JackieB]

They may not say it's bad but they also can't compare their care there to the care here if they never were treated here. People get used to things & accept what they are familiar with.

Canadians and Brits just don't know how bad their healthcare really is? The seems a little surprising to me. Old Soviet Union countries, I would agree. But I wouldn't think that would be the case with our friends up north and across the pond.

The thing that I think is a little over the top is this notion that there is no alternative to becoming one great big VA hospital system with no more insurance companies. Like Americans are really going to allow that to happen. It's the same way of thinking that should have us without private ownership of guns by now. I've been listening to that "Don't kid yourself. This is just the first step...." argument for 30 years. And 20 years from now, it will still be the same - gun control is just weeks away, and private gun ownership will be as common as ever.

[cowgirlup@idaho]

They may not say it's bad but they also can't compare their care there to the care here if they never were treated here. People get used to things & accept what they are familiar with.

This is exactly what I think and can be generalized to almost any situation, you don't know what you don't experience.

I had a friend who was in an injury car wreck in Canada years ago. Canada stopped treatement at $50,000 after her wait to get corrective surgury. It was a spinal injury. She was very unhappy with everything about the experience. Her mantra was don't go to Canada and get injured.

[natisha]

Without insurance companies we will be a big VA hospital. I never thought of that, thanks for making me more worried:)

I'm no expert & as RD isn't around I'm on my own here, but I will try to explain the differences as I see them, between the possibilites of Gov. taking over Health Care & controlling guns.
Please excuse my simplistic view.

The right to keep & bear arms is protected by the Second Amendment to the Constitution. The wording can't be messed with too much. It's pretty cut & dried.

There is no such wording regarding who controls health care. The Gov. is free to make up the rules as they go along. Our only defense is the will of the people, which I see ignored many times. Then we are expected to give it a chance, see how it works out? Is there any going back if it turns out sucky?

[JackieB]

The right to keep & bear arms is protected by the Second Amendment to the Constitution. The wording can't be messed with too much. It's pretty cut & dried.

Well, you'd think this would be the case. It's what I've always tried to say to so many people who looked me in the eye, mustered up their most serous and dire tone of voice, and said "Don't kid yourself, this is just the first step..."

It's not going to get sucky, Natisha. It's just not. But let's put a little something more substantive on this, shall we? I tried this with RD and his assertion that the insurance companies would all be gone, but I don't think he took me up on it.

We'll be in contact with each other for a long time to come. I'll bet you $100 that the healthcare system will look about the same in the US 20 years from now as it does today. By "about the same", I mean the world's best cancer institutes, top trauma centers in all big cities, the wealthiest of people from all around the world flying here for treatment, and so on. Or make it $500 if you prefer. I'm going to win, so pick your amount.

I'm not trying to be arrogant here. We just aren't going to let the world's best healthcare system go down the tubes. This is true whether the Dems, Republicans, or some third party prevails. The system is too valuable to us and there is too much infrastructure with strong forces vested in protecting it.

So, do we have a bet? December 1, 2030? I'll be able to use the money.

[natisha]

Well, you'd think this would be the case. It's what I've always tried to say to so many people who looked me in the eye, mustered up their most serous and dire tone of voice, and said "Don't kid yourself, this is just the first step..."

It's not going to get sucky, Natisha. It's just not. But let's put a little something more substantive on this, shall we? I tried this with RD and his assertion that the insurance companies would all be gone, but I don't think he took me up on it.

We'll be in contact with each other for a long time to come. I'll bet you $100 that the healthcare system will look about the same in the US 20 years from now as it does today. By "about the same", I mean the world's best cancer institutes, top trauma centers in all big cities, the wealthiest of people from all around the world flying here for treatment, and so on. Or make it $500 if you prefer. I'm going to win, so pick your amount.

I'm not trying to be arrogant here. We just aren't going to let the world's best healthcare system go down the tubes. This is true whether the Dems, Republicans, or some third party prevails. The system is too valuable to us and there is too much infrastructure with strong forces vested in protecting it.

So, do we have a bet? December 1, 2030? I'll be able to use the money.Ok it's a bet. I'll have them bury me with the money so you may have to dig me up to get it.

[JackieB]

Ok it's a bet. I'll have them bury me with the money so you may have to dig me up to get it.

OK, you're on.

HE, Dakota, you're both certain to be in contact with Natisha 20 years from now. Write down the date of 12/1/2030. Natisha is going to owe me $100.

[natisha]

OK, you're on.

HE, Dakota, you're both certain to be in contact with Natisha 20 years from now. Write down the date of 12/1/2030. Natisha is going to owe me $100.If you win the bet it will only be because people like me are who are trying to prevent disaster were successful. I will gladly pay you the $100 or change the bet to $500 if it will sway you to our cause of NO Government run health care.

[cowgirlup@idaho]

HE, Dakota, you're both certain to be in contact with Natisha 20 years from now. Write down the date of 12/1/2030. Natisha is going to owe me $100.

Isn't this between just you and Natisha?

[natisha]

Isn't this between just you and Natisha?He needs witnesses as the $$ will probably have to come out of my estate, which will be worth $0.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I agree, Jackie... in 20 years things will probably be fine. We should be recovering nicely from the revolution by then.

[cowgirlup@idaho]

He needs witnesses as the $$ will probably have to come out of my estate, which will be worth $0.

;)

[HeavensEast]

He needs witnesses as the $$ will probably have to come out of my estate, which will be worth $0.Shut up, we are going to be having a blast together in 20 years. I'll be a veterinarian and you'll be.. just as awesome as ever! I wanna be like you when I grow up!! ;):)

[JackieB]

Isn't this between just you and Natisha?

Yes, but I need witnesses. :p

[gabhainn]

We've done this one the forum before. Start a thread asking our forumers from Canada, the UK, or the Republic of Ireland about their experiences and those of their family members. They come back saying it's really not bad. Or at least they have in the past when we asked.
to be fair, most of those members are teenagers, and be honest how much did you know about your healthcare when you were a teen. The fact is if you dont know any better, it seems normal. But you get almost anybody from over there to experience healthcare here and they will gladly point out the differences. If this werent the case why are so many practitioners coming here? Im not talking about 3rd world countries either, there has been a huge influx, in my experience, in recent years of nurses from England, Canada, Germany, and the scandinavian countries. All related to the poor healthcare they are required to give, because its what the government mandates.....Kevin

[JackieB]

I agree, Jackie... in 20 years things will probably be fine. We should be recovering nicely from the revolution by then.

All this wailing and hand-wringing and you've thought all along that this is a temporary problem?! I've always said that if there are fundamental flaws that we have a system of checks and balances that tends to be able to correct them. But that didn't seem to go very far when it was coming from me.

[natisha]

If I have a toothache it's a temporary problem only if I get it fixed.
I would rather avoid the toothache in the first place if at all possible.

[JackieB]

If I have a toothache it's a temporary problem only if I get it fixed.
I would rather avoid the toothache in the first place if at all possible.

Right. But you will recall that I haven't agreed that this is necessarily a toothache. I think the intentions are good, there are many good parts of the plan, and time will tell how it pans out overall. But I'm sure you can understand my surprise because it always seemed to me that RD was coming from a perspective of - "This is it. Healthcare is destroyed. It will all be one big VA Hospital before long. It's over." We sure aren't going to go from that back to the envy of the world in healthcare in 20 years.

I'm betting that we won't see many changes in the care, only in how we decide to pay for it all (including both private and public funding). That's why I'm positive that I'll be collecting my $100.

[natisha]

Right. But you will recall that I haven't agreed that this is necessarily a toothache. I think the intentions are good, there are many good parts of the plan, and time will tell how it pans out overall. But I'm sure you can understand my surprise because it always seemed to me that RD was coming from a perspective of - "This is it. Healthcare is destroyed. It will all be one big VA Hospital before long. It's over." We sure aren't going to go from that back to the envy of the world in healthcare in 20 years.

I'm betting that we won't see many changes in the care, only in how we decide to pay for it all (including both private and public funding). That's why I'm positive that I'll be collecting my $100.If insurance companies don't make a profit why would they stay in business? Or hospitals for that matter? Why become a doctor if you can't afford a big lake home?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

All this wailing and hand-wringing and you've thought all along that this is a temporary problem?! I've always said that if there are fundamental flaws that we have a system of checks and balances that tends to be able to correct them. But that didn't seem to go very far when it was coming from me.

Temporary if you think that revolution is the best way to solve the problem.

I'm still holding out a little hope that people will finally see through the liberal lies, allow congress to kill obamacare before the venom begins to act... and adopt some sound free-market reforms of health finance. If that happens, then yes indeed in 20 years healthcare will be better than ever and affordable for everyone.

If obamacare isn't repealed and the libs are able to turn healthcare into the socialist utopian project they dream of... then yes, I'll take your bet. Though, we'll have to make it more like $1000 or more for it to still be a meaningful amount of money by then. $100 won't buy a Big Mac in 20 years if the libs keep running things.

If that happens, quality health care will only be available to the very rich and much of it will be overseas. Medicine here in the U.S. will be as innovative as the DMV and as compassionate as the IRS. Few doctors will speak english as a first language. Hospitals will be run-down, depressing, hopeless places. But by god they'll be expensive! And proudly so! The liberals will brag about how much they're spending per patient and demand that we spend more-- sort of like they do now for pupils in inner-city schools. With similar results.

Your faith in bureaucrats to graciously give you everything you want, is very strong. My faith in bureaucrats is not quite so strong. When I go to the DMV I don't see a model for the practice of medicine.

Obamacare has already driven up the cost of our company plan by 50% for next year. Was that what they said it would do? Is that supposed to be helpful? Of course not. They lied. The first of many.

[FredRock]

But by god they'll be expensive! And proudly so! The liberals will brag about how much they're spending per patient and demand that we spend more-- sort of like they do now for pupils in inner-city schools. With similar results.


This is one thing that I have never been able to understand in my short time working with people in public service positions. The public wants to see high numbers of cases for police officers, high number of convictions for prosecutors, and anything else that is high.

What they don't understand, is you actually want low numbers for preventative things. Ideally we should be paying nothing for healthcare, because we are not sick. We should have few animal abuse cases and crimes, or as few as possible, because the police and humane society is there to prevent such instances. Yet the public sees low numbers and think nothing is being done.

[Tiz]

And how do police/any government agency/the humane society "prevent" such things?

[Tiz]

I've never thought of REVOLUTION as a check, or a balance, Jackie. I think of it more as a REVOLUTION.

–noun 1. an overthrow or repudiation and the thorough replacement of an established government or political system by the people governed.

[FredRock]

And how do police/any government agency/the humane society "prevent" such things?

Advocacy and getting people to be proactive. For example, teach people to prevent burglaries by making their property less of a target, making people aware of what constitutes animal abuse so that problem can be intervened before it gets worse. The punishments for misdemeanors and violations need to be well known. Police officers in uniform around a community also offers increased presence of a capable guardian. Basically, they prevent the crimes by getting people to be aware of what makes them a victim, and reduce their ease of victimization. People looking to committ crimes that are planned will weigh the risks and benefits. If the risks outweigh the benefits, they will pass. Plain and simple. This doesn't pertain to crimes of passion, and rape. Rape is a whole different story.

The idea of advocacy and prevention also came from my supervisor at the SPCA where I interned. He's the lead investigator and a retired Sheriff. He was making spreadsheets of the numbers of different cases that they dealt with over the month, and mentioned that the numbers were up. I asked if that was good, and it led to the discussion of prevention. He basically said that the higher numbers were good for funding, but ultimately questioned whether they were good for the field, because part of being an offcer is advocating and trying to prevent crime in the first place. I'd never heard that perspective before, it was very educational.

[Tiz]

Do you have police officers, or other advocacy groups, go door to door with teaching materials? Do you keep an eye out for pets, then approach the pet owner with printed material on what constitutes animal abuse?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...]We should have few animal abuse cases and crimes, or as few as possible, because the police and humane society is there to prevent such instances.[...].

I was with ya right up to there. Police are not preventative. They're reactive. They can only do something after a crime is committed (and rightfully so). If this were true then the most heavily-policed districts (in terms of visible police presence) should be the least crime-ridden... and it just doesn't pencil out that way.

[JackieB]

I've never thought of REVOLUTION as a check, or a balance, Jackie. I think of it more as a REVOLUTION.


I agree. I'm talking about how Congress works to enact/modify laws. Not a revolution.

[JackieB]

Your faith in bureaucrats to graciously give you everything you want, is very strong.


No, it's not. I just happen to think that this particular plan has a lot more benefits to it than drawbacks.

And you have to keep in mind RD that I don't see this as a government takeover of healthcare at all. It's a fundamental difference in how we see this thing and at the heart of the whole argument.

If healthcare wasn't already dispensed as an entitlement to every single person in the US, here legally or not, I wouldn't be looking at it this way. It's not supposed to be an entitlement, but it certainly is handled that way. So we need to come up with a better way to pay for it all.

If Republicans or others have a better plan, I'm all ears. Seriously. Keep in mind that I pay 100% of my own premiums for a high deductible policy with no prescription coverage and I'm glad to do so. I'm not looking for a handout. And I'm not planning to go without insurance either because I don't want to risk bankruptcy if I am sick or injured and I also don't want to be a burden to society in that case.

I walk the walk here. You should be willing to admit that. But the costs are so hard to contain. I sure can't afford to pay a lot more.

So you say that this is a horrible plan that will actually end up costing us all a lot more. Fine. Bring on the good one. I'm not opposed to that one single bit.

[JackieB]

By the way, there is absolutely no path to addressing our budget and health insurance problems that doesn't also take on Medicare. We spend over $460 billion a year on Medicare and the boomers are getting ready to add tremendously to that.

But no politicians on either side of the aisle are willing to take that one on yet. They'll keep kicking it down the road to get re-elected by "Protecing your Medicare!" until it's an unmanageable crisis and we have no alternative but to deal with it.

[Tiz]

Medicare is a major contributor to our rising health care costs. I want Congress to address that problem by eliminating it. Not suddenly, but over a few years time.

The grand SS, Medicare, Welfare experiment has been a failure. Time to face it.