changes are coming

[magayle]

just sharing....

> I think you will find this article interesting, especially the last part about 19 facts that will deindustrialize America.
>

> Definitely something to think about.

> There is nothing political about this email. It simply points out very probable changes that are in our future.

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>
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> CHANGES ARE COMING ----

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> 1. The Post Office. Get ready to imagine a world without the post office. They are so deeply in financial trouble that there is probably no way to sustain it long term. Email, Fed Ex, and UPS have just about wiped out the minimum revenue needed to keep the post office alive. Most of your mail every day is junk mail and bills.

>
> 2. The Check. Britain is already laying the groundwork to do away with checks by 2018. It costs the financial system billions of dollars a year to process checks. Plastic cards and online transactions will lead to the eventual demise of the check. This plays right into the death of the post office. If you never paid your bills by mail and never received them by mail, the post office would absolutely go out of business.

>
> 3. The Newspaper. The younger generation simply doesn't read the newspaper. They certainly don't subscribe to a daily delivered print edition. That may go the way of the milkman and the laundry man. As for reading the paper online, get ready to pay for it. The rise in mobile Internet devices and e-readers has caused all the newspaper and magazine publishers to form an alliance. They have met with Apple, Amazon, and the major cell phone companies to develop a model for paid subscription services.

>
> 4. The Book. You say you will never give up the physical book that you hold in your hand and turn the literal pages. I said the same thing about downloading music fromiTunes. I wanted my hard copy CD. But I quickly changed my mind when I discovered that I could get albums for half the price without ever leaving home to get the latest music. The same thing will happen with books. You can browse a bookstore online and even read a preview chapter before you buy. And the price is less than half that of a real book. And think of the convenience! Once you start flicking your fingers on the screen instead of the book, you find that you are lost in the story, can't wait to see what happens next, and you forget that you're holding a gadget instead of a book.

>
> 5. The Land Line Telephone. Unless you have a large family and make a lot of local calls, you don't need it anymore. Most people keep it simply because they've always had it. But you are paying double charges for that extra service. All the cell phone companies will let you call customers using the same cell provider for no charge against your minutes
>

>
> 6. Music. This is one of the saddest parts of the change story. The music industry is dying a slow death. Not just because of illegal downloading. It's the lack of innovative new music being given a chance to get to the people who would like to hear it. Greed and corruption is the problem. The record labels and the radio conglomerates are simply self-destructing. Over 40% of the music purchased today is "catalog items," meaning traditional music that the public is familiar with. Older established artists. This is also true on the live concert circuit. To explore this fascinating and disturbing topic further, check out the book, "Appetite for Self-Destruction" by Steve Knopper, and the video documentary, "Before the Music Dies."
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> 7. Television. Revenues to the networks are down dramatically. Not just because of the economy. People are watching TV and movies streamed from their computers. And they're playing games and doing lots of other things that take up the time that used to be spent watching TV. Prime time shows have degenerated down to lower than the lowest common denominator. Cable rates are skyrocketing and commercials run about every 4 minutes and 30 seconds. I say good riddance to most of it. It's time for the cable companies to be put out of our misery. Let the people choose what they want to watch online and through Netflix.
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> 8. The "Things" That You Own. Many of the very possessions that we used to own are still in our lives, but we may not actually own them in the future. They may simply reside in "the cloud." Today your computer has a hard drive and you store your pictures, music, movies, and documents. Your software is on a CD or DVD, and you can always re-install it if need be. But all of that is changing. Apple, Microsoft, and Google are all finishing up their latest "cloud services." That means that when you turn on a computer, the Internet will be built into the operating system. So, Windows, Google, and the Mac OS will be tied straight into the Internet. If you click an icon, it will open something in the Internet cloud. If you save something, it will be saved to the cloud. And you may pay a monthly subscription fee to the cloud
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> provider.
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> In this virtual world, you can access your music or your books, or your whatever from any laptop or handheld device. That's the good news. But, will you actually own any of this "stuff" or will it all be able to disappear at any moment in a big "Poof?" Will most of the things in our lives be disposable and whimsical? It makes you want to run to the closet and pull out that photo album, grab a book from the shelf, or open up a CD case and pull out the insert.
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> 9. Privacy. If there ever was a concept that we can look back on nostalgically, it would be privacy. That's gone. It's been gone for a long time anyway. There are cameras on the street, in most of the buildings, and even built into your computer and cell phone. But you can be sure that 24/7, "They" know who you are and where you are, right down to the GPS coordinates, and the Google Street View. If you buy something, your habit is put into a zillion profiles, and your ads will change to reflect those habits. And "They" will try to get you to buy something else. Again and again.
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> All we will have that can't be changed are Memories.
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> 19 Facts About The Deindustrialization Of America That Will Blow Your Mind - see below
>
> The United States is rapidly becoming the very first "post-industrial" nation on the globe. All great economic empires eventually become fat and lazy and squander the great wealth that their forefathers have left them, but the pace at which America is accomplishing this is absolutely amazing. It was America that was at the forefront of the industrial revolution. It was America that showed the world how to mass produce everything from automobiles to televisions to airplanes. It was the great American manufacturing base that crushed Germany and Japan
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> in World War II.
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> But now we are witnessing the deindustrialization of America. Tens of thousands of factories have left the United States in the past decade alone. Millions upon millions of manufacturing jobs have been lost in the same time period. The United States has become a nation that consumes everything in sight and yet produces increasingly little. Do you know what our biggest export is today? Waste paper. Yes, trash is the number one thing that we ship out to the rest of the world as we voraciously blow our money on whatever the rest of the world wants to sell to us. The United States has become bloated and spoiled and our economy is now just a shadow of what it once was. Once upon a time America could literally out produce the rest of the world combined. Today that is no longer true, but Americans sure do consume more than anyone else in the world. If the
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> deindustrialization of America continues at this current pace, what possible kind of a future are we going to be leaving to our children?
>
> Any great nation throughout history has been great at making things. So if the United States continues to allow its manufacturing base to erode at a staggering pace how in the world can the U.S. continue to consider itself to be a great nation? We have created the biggest debt bubble in the history of the world in an effort to maintain a very high standard of living, but the current state of affairs is not anywhere close to sustainable. Every single month America goes into more debt and every single month America gets poorer.
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> So what happens when the debt bubble pops?
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> The deindustrialization of the United States should be a top concern for every man, woman and child in the country. But sadly, most Americans do not have any idea what is going on around
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> them.
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> For people like that, take this article and print it out and hand it to them. Perhaps what they will read below will shock them badly enough to awaken them from their slumber.
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>
> The following are 19 facts about the deindustrialization of America that will blow your mind....
>
> #1 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories since 2001. About 75 percent of those factories employed over 500 people when they were still in operation.
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> #2 Dell Inc., one of America's largest manufacturers of computers, has announced plans to dramatically expand its operations in China with an investment of over $100 billion over the next decade.
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> #3 Dell has announced that it will be closing its last large U.S. manufacturing facility in Winston-Salem, North Carolina in November. Approximately 900 jobs will be lost.
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> #4 In 2008, 1.2 billion cell phones were sold worldwide. So how many of them were manufactured inside the United States? Zero.
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> #5 According to a new study
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> conducted by the Economic Policy Institute, if the U.S. trade deficit with China continues to increase at its current rate, the U.S. economy will lose over half a million jobs this year alone.
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> #6 As of the end of July, the U.S. trade deficit with China had risen 18 percent compared to the same time period a year ago.
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> #7 The United States has lost a total of about 5.5 million manufacturing jobs since October 2000.
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> #8 According to Tax Notes, between 1999 and 2008 employment at the foreign affiliates of U.S. parent companies increased an astounding 30 percent to 10.1 million. During that exact same time period, U.S. employment at American multinational corporations declined 8 percent to 21.1 million.
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> #9 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of U.S. economic output. In 2008, it represented 11.5 percent.
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> #10 Ford Motor Company recently announced the closure of a factory that produces the Ford Ranger in St.
>
> Paul, Minnesota. Approximately 750 good paying middle class jobs are going to be lost because making Ford Rangers in Minnesota does not fit in with Ford's new "global" manufacturing strategy.
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> #11 As of the end of 2009, less than 12 million Americans worked in manufacturing. The last time less than 12 million Americans were employed in manufacturing was in 1941.
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> #12 In the United States today, consumption accounts for 70 percent of GDP. Of this 70 percent, over half is spent on services.
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> #13 The United States has lost a whopping 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.
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> #14 In 2001, the United States ranked fourth in the world in per capita broadband Internet use. Today it ranks 15th.
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> #15 Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.
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> #16 Printed circuit boards are used in tens of thousands of different products. Asia now
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> produces 84 percent of them worldwide.
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> #17 The United States spends approximately $3.90 on Chinese goods for every $1 that the Chinese spend on goods from the United States.
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> #18 One prominent economist is projecting that the Chinese economy will be three times larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2040.
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> #19 The U.S. Census Bureau says that 43.6 million Americans are now living in poverty and according to them that is the highest number of poor Americans in the 51 years that records have been kept.
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> So how many tens of thousands more factories do we need to lose before we do something about it?
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> How many millions more Americans are going to become unemployed before we all admit that we have a very, very serious problem on our hands?
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> How many more trillions of dollars are going to leave the country before we realize that we are losing wealth at a pace that is killing our economy?
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> How many once great
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> manufacturing cities are going to become rotting war zones like Detroit before we understand that we are committing national economic suicide?
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> The deindustrialization of America is a national crisis. It needs to be treated like one.
>

[WashingtonBay]

Lots of interesting fodder for discussion here :)

Changes - yes. Most are happening already. We write very few checks, send very little US Mail, have no landline phone, and rarely read the newspaper. All dinosaurs of old technology.



RE de industrialization... Agree - Big problem! We need to stop abusing those "evil" corporations who used to make things and employ people in this country. Remember them? Unions and un-navigable federal, state and local regulations intended to punish and tax, not protect, all make it a lot smarter to just move overseas.

[magayle]

the closest 'right way to live' for me is amish....
just think for a moment how life would be living by their standards....
just think for a moment....what if we lived by a law/rule that there could be only one income producing person in a household?
in my lifetime (58 years), i feel that when women went to work the mess started....unreal housing costs from basing everything on 2 incomes.....kids being raised by strangers and needing drugs for mental illness....healthy diets replaced by fast junk food.....roads overcrowded with double workforce....the list in my mind goes on and on....and from this news prediction it appears to me that natural consequences are appearing from doing all the wrong things for so long...the universe will fix itself and IT IS

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I disagree with much of that.

[Remali]

I agree the U.S. spends way too much on Chinese goods.

No way could I live the way the Amish live....absolutely NO way. :eek: Altho I do agree about too many kids being raised by strangers not being a good thing.

[WashingtonBay]

Uh yeah - While I do have a romantic luddite side who admires and is a bit jealous of the Amish... You simply lost me with your next sentence about a law telling families who can and can't work.

Too much income in this country is not what killed industry. We aren't buying less, we're buying more. Trouble is deeper than that.

[Gliderider]

I so could live like the Amish. I tell my family all the time I was born in the wrong time.

As far as cell phones. They suck here where I live. I don't even own one now my husband has one that is provided by his job and both kids have one but they do not work at are house at all. Plus many places around town here they don't work. Hubby gets so mad at his for dropping calls he most likely one of these days will throw it out a moving car window. So we have to have a land line for are home phone.

[WashingtonBay]

I think wireless coverage will only improve... Satellite and wireless are just so much more efficient than stringing wires everywhere.

Cell coverage was only mediocre at our old place. But it's real strong at the new place and we just decided we didn't need a landline. Even doing without the fax line for my work, we instead subscribe to a service that sends them in emails.


While I disagree with the author up there that "music" is ending.... the way we purchase it certainly will. So too for movies and other programming. Much more will become on demand any time, so the need to buy physical discs to own movies or music will be a thing of the past.

And the music industry will lose in it's attempt to hold on to a dinosaur product delivery system. They may go down screaming, but they will lose. Music will not disappear, but the market structure for it will. To the benefit of new music, artists will no longer need to be blessed by big record companies to make it big. All they need is a viral youtube video.

[Kara]

My grandfather got a jacket from a family member it's a air force jacket. The tag said MADE IN CHINA..

I laughed because that's sad

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

My comments in BLACK. Original text in RED. Was too long, so I've edited [...] out some of the original text to shorten it some.


> CHANGES ARE COMING ----

Well, sure...
>
> 1. The Post Office. [...].


FedEx and UPS are prohibited by law from competing with the US Mail for first class mail. UPS has been around for decades getting along with the USPS, and even FedEx didn't really compete on the package business, but rather they provided a different product entirely: rapid shipment at a very high premium price. Overnight shipment was unthinkable before FedEx proved it could work. The USPS doesn't need to make a profit. They'll be around for a long time, as long as there's a need for first class mail, and a buyer for third class mail. E-mail has cut into mail volume some, but it has probably cut into telephone call volume more. E-mail messages compete more directly with phone calls than letters, I think.

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> 2. The Check. Britain is already [...].

Some checking will remain, but sure... they're just not as useful as they used to be. Nothing lost there. A better, faster and more secure way has replaced them.

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> 3. The Newspaper. [...].

The News "Paper" will still exist, and it'll be mainly supported by advertising just as always. It'll simply be online. Again, no loss there. Better, faster, and less wasteful of resources.

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> 4. The Book. [...].

The difference now is that anyone can self-publish a hardbound, paper book. No reliance on only big publishing houses to get published.

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> 5. The Land Line Telephone. Unless you have a large family and make a lot of local calls, you don't need it anymore. [...]>

More to the point... telephone will finally become a flat-rate product. One monthly charge for unlimited access.
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> 6. Music. This is one of the saddest parts of the change story. The music industry is dying a slow death. Not just because of illegal downloading. [...]>


The Music industry is doing fine. It's the recording industry that is suffering. Good riddance, IMHO. The recording industry is suddenly finding itself to be irrelevant. Nobody needs them to become a star anymore. Anybody with an Internet connection can self-publish their own music. I don't see a problem with that. To hell with the RIAA-- may they go the way of buggy-whips.
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> 7. Television. Revenues to the networks are down dramatically. Not just because of the economy. People are watching TV and movies streamed from their computers. [...] Let the people choose what they want to watch online and through Netflix.
>
They said the same thing about the VCR. Forty years ago. There were only three or four channels then. Now there's hundreds of channels and more programming than ever.
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> 8. The "Things" That You Own. Many of the very possessions that we used to own are still in our lives, but we may not actually own them in the future. They may simply reside in "the cloud." [...] If you save something, it will be saved to the cloud. And you may pay a monthly subscription fee to the cloud
>
> provider.
[...]>
>
"The Cloud" is just the most recent fad. They said once that Application Service Providers would replace software, and "they" were wrong then too.
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>
> 9. Privacy. If there ever was a concept that we can look back on nostalgically, it would be privacy. That's gone. [...].
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>
Anybody can still be as private as they choose to be. I'm just not going to worry about "the man" following me around. I'm pretty sure "the man" has better things to do.
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>
> All we will have that can't be changed are Memories.
>
>
Actually... I'd stay tuned on that... :)
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>
>
> 19 Facts About The Deindustrialization Of America That Will Blow Your Mind - see below
>
> The United States is rapidly becoming the very first "post-industrial" nation on the globe. [...]It was America that showed the world how to mass produce everything from automobiles to televisions to airplanes. It was the great American manufacturing base that crushed Germany and Japan
>
> in World War II.

Hardly. The U.S. is still the largest manufacturer in the world, and by a great margin. That some other third-world countries are ~finally~ beginning to industrialize themselves shouldn't be alarming or surprising. It's actually a good thing.
>
> But now we are witnessing the deindustrialization of America. [no, we're not] Tens of thousands of factories have left the United States in the past decade alone. Millions upon millions of manufacturing jobs have been lost in the same time period. [Mostly to automation] The United States has become a nation that consumes everything in sight and yet produces increasingly little [not true]. Do you know what our biggest export is today? Waste paper. [no, it's not] Yes, trash is the number one thing that we ship out to the rest of the world as we voraciously blow our money on whatever the rest of the world wants to sell to us. The United States has become bloated and spoiled and our economy is now just a shadow of what it once was.[Not true] Once upon a time America could literally out produce the rest of the world combined. [Should we make sure they all still stay poor? How? And under what moral construct is that just?]. Today that is no longer true, but Americans sure do consume more than anyone else in the world. If the
>
> deindustrialization of America continues at this current pace, what possible kind of a future are we going to be leaving to our children?


Future's so bright... I gotta wear shades... but this "deindustrialization" just just a meaningless buzzword.

>
> Any great nation throughout history has been great at making things. [...] but the current state of affairs is not anywhere close to sustainable. Every single month America goes into more debt and every single month America gets poorer.
>
Conflating federal debt with standard of living is a non-sequitur.

> So what happens when the debt bubble pops?

Maybe democrats will finally be outed for the liars they are. Bring it on. I've got plenty of ammo.
>
> The deindustrialization of the United States should be a top concern for every man, woman and child in the country. But sadly, most Americans do not have any idea what is going on around[...]>

Or just bludgeon them with a bunch of unrelated and panic-mongering semi-factoids:
>
> The following are 19 facts about the deindustrialization of America that will blow your mind....
>
> #1 The United States has lost approximately 42,400 factories since 2001. About 75 percent of those factories employed over 500 people when they were still in operation.
>
A useless and probably invented statistic that says nothing.

> #2 Dell Inc., one of America's largest manufacturers of computers, has announced plans to dramatically expand its operations in China with an investment of over $100 billion over the next decade.

The 100-billion is just a dreamed-up scary-sounding number. Dell is building factories in China-- to sell those computers in China. Seems like a sensible way to do it. Dell is also closing it's call centers in India and bringing all those call centers back to Texas. I guess that wasn't important enough to mention.
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> #3 Dell has announced that it will be closing its last large U.S. manufacturing facility in Winston-Salem, North Carolina in November. Approximately 900 jobs will be lost.
>
So? If we don't offer a regulatory and labor environment that permits businesses to succeed we shouldn't be surprised that they run elsewhere. Good for them.

> #4 In 2008, 1.2 billion cell phones were sold worldwide. So how many of them were manufactured inside the United States? Zero.

Not exactly true. Many of the key parts and chips are made in the U.S. But so what? If other countries can make them better ~and~ cheaper, then the smart play is to let them.
>
> #5 According to a new study
>
> conducted by the Economic Policy Institute, if the U.S. trade deficit with China continues to increase at its current rate, the U.S. economy will lose over half a million jobs this year alone.

Nonsense. If we're losing jobs it's our own dumb fault. Time to stop scape-goating them "furriners".
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> #6 As of the end of July, the U.S. trade deficit with China had risen 18 percent compared to the same time period a year ago.
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Not buying it. What year? Not this year.

> #7 The United States has lost a total of about 5.5 million manufacturing jobs since October 2000.

Simply not true. There were many millions more jobs (6M+, I think) in 2008 than there were in 2000.
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> #8 According to Tax Notes, between 1999 and 2008 employment at the foreign affiliates of U.S. parent companies increased an astounding 30 percent to 10.1 million. During that exact same time period, U.S. employment at American multinational corporations declined 8 percent to 21.1 million.

Not true. Just made up.
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> #9 In 1959, manufacturing represented 28 percent of U.S. economic output. In 2008, it represented 11.5 percent.

I don't accept the numbers, but even so... so what? So we have a much more widely diversified economy after fifty years of staggering and unprecedented economic growth-- and growth in standard of living that has been the envy of the entire world? Big deal?
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> #10 Ford Motor Company recently announced the closure of a factory that produces the Ford Ranger in St.
>
> Paul, Minnesota. Approximately 750 good paying middle class jobs are going to be lost because making Ford Rangers in Minnesota does not fit in with Ford's new "global" manufacturing strategy.

Talk to your union bosses about that. I won't shed a tear.
>
> #11 As of the end of 2009, less than 12 million Americans worked in manufacturing. The last time less than 12 million Americans were employed in manufacturing was in 1941.

You do realize that these days, your precious "manufacturing job" also means that it is a no-skill low-wage job, right? In the forties, it used to take dozens of skilled welders to make, say, an automobile chassis. Now the same job is done by robots that do the job better and more efficiently. There's just one guy down there shooting grease into the robot arms. Any minimum wage schmuck can to that.
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> #12 In the United States today, consumption accounts for 70 percent of GDP. Of this 70 percent, over half is spent on services.

High-skill, high wage services like engineering and sciences. What's the point?
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> #13 The United States has lost a whopping 32 percent of its manufacturing jobs since the year 2000.

Again... not a meaningful stat. Out of context and unsupportable.
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> #14 In 2001, the United States ranked fourth in the world in per capita broadband Internet use. Today it ranks 15th.

Are we supposed to keep the Internet all to ourselves? What exactly is this person saying? That we don't want any icky brown people on our nice whitebread Interwebs?

>
> #15 Manufacturing employment in the U.S. computer industry is actually lower in 2010 than it was in 1975.

Yes, by all means... lets keep all those no-skill, low-wage, low-education jobs right here in the good 'ol USA.
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> #16 Printed circuit boards are used in tens of thousands of different products. Asia now
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> produces 84 percent of them worldwide.

Good.

>
> #17 The United States spends approximately $3.90 on Chinese goods for every $1 that the Chinese spend on goods from the United States.

That's because they're dirt poor. Should we try to keep them that way? Or... [drumroll] would it be better for us in the long term for China to develop a prosperous middle class?
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> #18 One prominent economist is projecting that the Chinese economy will be three times larger than the U.S. economy by the year 2040.

Well, they've got SIX times our population. If they can't do that by then, they're still doing something very, very wrong.

>
> #19 The U.S. Census Bureau says that 43.6 million Americans are now living in poverty and according to them that is the highest number of poor Americans in the 51 years that records have been kept.

Nonsense. "Poverty" in America means only one plasma TV, only one car, only one house per family. When the greatest affliction on the "poor" in this country is ~obesity~, the rest of the world and their truly poor people would just laugh.

[...]
> How many more trillions of dollars are going to leave the country before we realize that we are losing wealth at a pace that is killing our economy?

And what're ya going to do about that? Build a wall around the country and shoot anybody that tries to get out? I hate to tell you, but it's been done and it didn't work that well then, either. As always... scratch a liberal... find, well... you know.

>
> How many once great
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> manufacturing cities are going to become rotting war zones like Detroit before we understand that we are committing national economic suicide?
>
> The deindustrialization of America is a national crisis. It needs to be treated like one.

Blah... blah... what a bunch of fearmongering. Probably written, I'm guessing by somebody connected to a labor union.

Detroit didn't become a "rotting war zone" because of China, or Mexico, or Canada. It got that way because that's what they wanted. The unions wanted to bring their industry to its knees and make them beg for mercy. The democrats helped them by heaping on crippling regulations and taxes that made business virtually impossible. They got greedy and they killed the golden goose.

[WashingtonBay]

Whew! Nicely countered, RD!

I do disagree that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with our increasing reliance on China. Not because they do it cheaper and better, but because they only do it cheaper. Many times (and counting) the products China is putting out are toxic or otherwise dangerous, and someone, many people probably, are failing to do the quality control assurance needed to make sure the products we buy are safe.

I do not think it is in our interest to reduce ourselves to a few massive factory producers (no matter where they are) who can, with a single mistake, poison our entire food supply with base ingredients we don't even know we're buying and therefore can't choose to avoid. And that's just the mistakes that will happen. Nevermind someone who actually wants to do harm.

In that, local was better. But I think that's long gone.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I think the quality-control problems you mentioned are part of the learning process, as the chinese (or anyone else for that matter) are learning how to participate in a world market, essentially for the first time. "Quality control" doesn't matter so much when the whole economy was dictated by the central communist party as the only actual consumer. Now... woah... suddenly consumers stop buying a product if it is contaminated or otherwise not what they wanted. That's new.

Think of Japan after the war. They started manufacturing stuff... and were ridiculed world-wide for shoddy quality. I remember grandpa complaining about those "damned Jap nails" he got from the hardware store that would bend so easy they were about useless. Well... that poor quality didn't last long. Japanese companies learned that they have to produce a quality product if they want to sell it. Pretty soon, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan were kicking Detroit's butt at their own game. They were producing a ~better~ car for less money than Detroit could.

Competition though, has been good for the auto industry. U.S. automakers are making a far, far superior product today because of it. Free markets are good.

[Tiz]

Not your best work, RD.

That's BS! So is that! Not true! Probably not true! So what! Glad it's gone!

I do appreciate the time you spent though. Entertaining, as always.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Not your best work, RD.

That's BS! So is that! Not true! Probably not true! So what! Glad it's gone!

I do appreciate the time you spent though. Entertaining, as always.

Hey... Jeez... it took long enough as it was... :)

Sometimes when BS is blatant enough I'm not sure a source link is even necessary. I did, however, look up some export numbers at the Dept of Commerce just to be sure.

[WashingtonBay]

Tough crowd. ;)

[Tiz]

I also don't agree with your definition of manufacturing jobs as low wage, low education jobs, so who needs them. The wages are typically living wage jobs, and the education required may not rely on academia, but on practical, on site education. I would challenge you, or any college graduate, to walk into a plant, or a mill, or a factory, and go right to work with what you learned in school.

[magayle]

I also don't agree with your definition of manufacturing jobs as low wage, low education jobs, so who needs them. The wages are typically living wage jobs, and the education required may not rely on academia, but on practical, on site education. I would challenge you, or any college graduate, to walk into a plant, or a mill, or a factory, and go right to work with what you learned in school.

:clap:

[lacyloo]

Change- blah blah blah. ;)

[Remali]

Quote: "Maybe democrats will finally be outed for the liars they are. Bring it on. I've got plenty of ammo."

This is so ridiculous I won't even dignify that with a comment.... You know what the real problem is with this country? Statements and thinking like that.... until this country and the people learn to work TOGETHER nothing is ever going to be accomplished.

Also, quite a few manufacturing jobs are actually NOT low pay (I don't consider $20-something an hour low pay), show me anyone who could walk in to a manufacturing job and actually be able to do the work.

[WashingtonBay]

On your last.... Yes and no. It's true, running a factory includes the full range of skilled and less-skilled jobs. Some of each.

Part of the reason for the demise of manufacturing though, are unions who demanded that relatively unskilled jobs should pay $20 an hour. Wages have become inflated in union-dominated industries, to the point where it's not affordable.

[FredRock]

I have to disagree with the book thing. They're not cheaper. When you factor in the cost of the device, like my Nook, it doesn't matter if the book costs only 90 cents- its always going to be more expenxive because of the cost of the device. Not to mention that book companies put reserves on the books, not allowing these companies to sell them at too low of a cost. For the most part nookbooks are just as expensive as the hard copies, plus the price of the device. I got it simply because of the ease of access, traveling, and automatic bookmarks.

It'll catch on with the younger generations, sure, but the majority of "bookies," the ones who go to book stores regularly and read a book every week or so will stick with their hard copies. Believe me, I've received several rants on the subject.

[Remali]

No unions around here, but quite a few of the manufacturing jobs in this area pay quite well. There are several though that have more automation now, resulting in the need for less workers.

As for books..... there will always be a need for books.... people like me who love their books and bookstores. You'll never see me with a Kindle.....ever.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...]

This is so ridiculous I won't even dignify that with a comment.... You know what the real problem is with this country? Statements and thinking like that.... until this country and the people learn to work TOGETHER nothing is ever going to be accomplished.

Also, quite a few manufacturing jobs are actually NOT low pay (I don't consider $20-something an hour low pay), show me anyone who could walk in to a manufacturing job and actually be able to do the work.

Work together for what? Why should I want to work "together" with those that only want to take what I've worked a lifetime for? Sorry, but I'm not going to help them steal from me or anyone else.

Of course there are good jobs still in manufacturing. Lots of them. In many factories, however, they are producing more now with far fewer people than it took, say, back in the 1940's or 50's. Automation has eliminated many of the repetitive labor-intensive jobs that were once there. There's nothing inherently wrong with this, either. It takes people to build the robots, too.

[Remali]

Who is stealing what, and from whom?

I think if both democrats and republicans spent less time with accusations, and more time discussing how to solve the issues.... things would go more smoothly and things would get accomplished.

[Tiz]

http://video.foxnews.com/v/4484514/number-crunching-pelosi/

Democrats lie, Remali.

[Remali]

Guess what Tiz..... Republicans lie too. It's called politics. ;)

[Tiz]

I haven't seen lying from the Republican side that measures up to Mrs. Pelosi's blatant and baldfaced talent. Don't you ever get tired of your party assuming you're so stupid that you might believe them?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Who is stealing what, and from whom?

I think if both democrats and republicans spent less time with accusations, and more time discussing how to solve the issues.... things would go more smoothly and things would get accomplished.

I don't want government "solving" issues at all. They need to do less, not more. Repeal laws, not write more. Take less. Waste less. Talk less.

[Cat]

Changes can be good. What can look like a horrible outlook can actually be an opportunity for the future. It can only be an opportunity if we stop wallowing in the pity and blame game and do what our ancestors were good at - be innovative.

I'm surprised, but I actually agree with Ragnar on most of his points.

One thing I do want to add on this point:

#10 Ford Motor Company recently announced the closure of a factory that produces the Ford Ranger in St. Paul, Minnesota. Approximately 750 good paying middle class jobs are going to be lost because making Ford Rangers in Minnesota does not fit in with Ford's new "global" manufacturing strategy.


Yes, they may be closing a plant in Minnesota. I'm sorry for those people, but pick-ups aren't selling like they used to. People want the new small SUVs or if they have a truck its a large working farm truck or other pulling purpose. Large SUVs and pick-ups just to drive are falling to the wayside do to rising gas costs. What they forget to mention in this little tidbit of information is that yes, 750 jobs were lost over a line that just doesn't have the sales to support it, but 1800 jobs were also created. Here in Kentucky they are adding 1800 jobs for the Escape - a vehicle that is selling.

And why KY? Well they offered a tax incentive to get the work here and also Ford would then be closer to a lot of their Tier 1 and tier 2 suppliers that are also concentrated in this area. While the auto market did crash, there are positive signs that its finally coming back. Since those 750 folks are losing their jobs - should we not only complain about jobs in China, but also complain about jobs moving states?

[Cat]

I don't want government "solving" issues at all. They need to do less, not more. Repeal laws, not write more. Take less. Waste less. Talk less.

I'm missing the facebook "like" button right now.


However - Tiz - all politicians lie. Both republicans and dems. I see it on both sides. One side calling the other a lier is like the pot calling the kettle black. There is a reason I am an independent.

[gabhainn]

what I find humorous about the original article is how it keeps coming back to manufacturing jobs why? Unions, thats why, and its no secret that the Dems are in the Union pockets. Why, I wonder, doesnt it mention the number of farms and ranches that disappear daily? Because farmers and ranchers rarely support the democratic party. That and the fact that the dems really, really really want an estate tax and that destroys more farms and ranches than the economy......kevin

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...]

However - Tiz - all politicians lie. Both republicans and dems.[...]

I don't agree. Liberals lie as a necessity of daily life. Sure, some conservative has probably lied, but I don't recall one offhand. That sounds like a flip comment, I suppose... but I honestly do perceive that republicans value truth and honesty much, much more.

Sure, liberals tend to ~think~ "everybody does it" but that's only to justify themselves. The truth is, "everybody" ~doesn't~ do it. There's plenty of honest politicians out there, but precious few are on the left.

Liberals can't be honest, because they can't admit their actual end game: total power. "Everything that is not forbidden is mandatory". They want everyone to be utterly dependent on goverment for every little facet of life. All wealth flows to the state, and all subsistence flows from the state. And they are the state. It's all about power for them. Everything is regulated, taxed, redestributed according to whomever the Party perfers at the moment.

Why do they want absolute control over the practice medicine? Power. Why do they want an estate tax? Confiscation. They'd set the estate tax at 100% if they could (of course, the Kennedys and other "good liberals" and "party members" would be exempt) Obama has already said that he doesn't think anybody should be able to make more than $250,000 a year. Well... isn't that special. Funny... he didn't give up all his book sales to the IRS. Imagine that.

[WashingtonBay]

I'm not going to argue with him, trying to get in some TV time, but in case anyone wondered... "you're full of it" is a perfectly acceptable response to something like that. ^ :)

[Tiz]

Yes, Cat, but don't you think when you see Nancy say something so blatantly false, it would be appropriate to acknowledge it in some form? Gasp, laugh out loud, make fun of her, be disgusted, whatever? Just ignoring her, and blandly saying it's politics and everyone lies? That kind of dodge never worked for me growing up. I always got a "Two wrongs don't make a right."

[WashingtonBay]

Cat's right on this. To think only one side has liars and power mongers and sleazeballs is just really convenient myopia.

Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

They're not evil, they're just wrong. :)

I'll pull a JackieB here, since he's not been around today, and say both sides are trying to do what they think is best, it's just they disagree on what best is.

Yes, the left does want more government wealth, power and control. But not because they just want the power, because they think at their root, people are incapable of serving themselves and NEED government to make things fair. It's an overprotective mommy complex, not a lie. They look at the human condition, and see only the tragedies and failures. Conservatives look at this country and see individual opportunities and successes.

Reality contains both :)

Eh - I said I wasn't going to argue it... :p

[Cat]

Very well put WB.

I wish it was clear cut. I wish it was X group always lies and are the bad guys and Y group always tells the truth and are the good guys. But life is just not that easy. Yes, sometimes certain politicians seem to blatantly flaunt what they are doing - but it happens all around. It just depends on who/what is the flavor of the week as to who gets the attention.

Tiz- I'm sorry you think my response is a dodge, but when you toss up a response like "dems lie" when someone suggests things would work if the two groups worked together and try to act like it never stinks on your side - well there is the dodge. Excellent mature response. :rolleyes:

Ragnar - I think I will go with WBs initial response. Your full of it. I do like how you include the word perceive. Yes - that may be how you perceive the republicans and dems. Doesn't mean its the unbiased reality.

[WashingtonBay]

RD is composing a response... I think I'll sign off now so I don't have to respond to it :D


Good night everyone! :popcorn: I'm hitting the couch for some TV.

[Cat]

Night WB.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...] both sides are trying to do what they think is best, it's just they disagree on what best is.
[...]


I'd really like to believe that. I understand why it's a popular point of view. Nobody wants to believe that that really, really bad people exist and some of them are in charge.

Liberals cannot ~honestly~ believe that theirs is merely a "disagreement" about what's better. Some may be fooled into thinking that, but after a century or two of failed attempts at various expressions of socialism or communism... there really isn't much room left, on the left, for an intellectually honest person to argue that a centrally-planned totalitarian government is in ~any~ way really beneficial to it's people. They uniformly become cruel and despotic. Ours is no exception.

...and before anybody jumps on me for using the word "totalitarian"... think again. If you think that's not what liberals are all about, try this today:

-- Go into a bar in Seattle and merely light a cigarette.
-- Ride a bicycle without a helmet on.
-- Take your seatbelt off.
-- Wish somebody "Merry Christmas" at the office.
-- Take your pocketknife to the airport.
-- (if you're on medicare) Try to pay your doctor with money.
-- Have your 7yr old daughter open a lemonade stand without a business license.
-- Buy a rifle for a 10 year old.
-- Buy a switchblade knife.
-- Build a tool shed in your own back yard without permission from the county.
-- Buy a happy meal in San Francisco.
-- Wear a cross with your business attire.
-- Put your 30-06 in your pickup's window gun rack so you can go hunting after school.
-- ...and on and on and on...

And then... think back to about 1965 or even 75... None of those things would've even batted a single eye. In fact... if you could go back in time to 1965 and tell people that all these things will be ILLEGAL in 2010, most people would probably have laughed.

Imagine what will be illegal in 2020, or 2030...

-- Driving alone, without a permission slip from the carpool authority.
-- Eating a steak (contraband red meat)
-- Eating bacon (non-halal foods outlawed).
-- Owning a car, without permission from the state transit authority.
-- Setting your thermostat to higher than 65 degrees.
-- Owning an incandescent light bulb.
-- Owning a gun.
-- Owning a knife. Of any kind.
-- Expressing an anti-government opinion.
-- Expressing an anti-muslim opinion. (Whoops... nevermind this one's already happened.
-- yadda yadda yadda...

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

RD is composing a response... I think I'll sign off now so I don't have to respond to it :D


Good night everyone! :popcorn: I'm hitting the couch for some TV.

[snicker] Not fair! You know me too well! :)

[natisha]

What strikes me most about people who lie is their refusal to admit it afterwards even when faced with the facts. The Pelosi clip is a prime example.

RD may have stepped into the deep end of the pool but he treads water pretty well. Maybe, just maybe, if he toned down the strict labeling his broader view points could be seen. I do find his passion strangely compelling-in a moth to a flame kind of way.

JackieB is on a trip out of town. I hope his head doesn't explode when he gets back.

[Tiz]

Quote: "Maybe democrats will finally be outed for the liars they are. Bring it on. I've got plenty of ammo."

This is so ridiculous I won't even dignify that with a comment.... You know what the real problem is with this country? Statements and thinking like that.... until this country and the people learn to work TOGETHER nothing is ever going to be accomplished.

Also, quite a few manufacturing jobs are actually NOT low pay (I don't consider $20-something an hour low pay), show me anyone who could walk in to a manufacturing job and actually be able to do the work.

A reminder, Cat, of the origins of my post. I provided an example of why RD's sentence is not "so ridiculous" and neither you, nor Remali, acknowledged it, at all. You both just changed the subject. :rolleyes:

[Tiz]

...and say both sides are trying to do what they think is best, it's just they disagree on what best is.

Yes, the left does want more government wealth, power and control. But not because they just want the power, because they think at their root, people are incapable of serving themselves and NEED government to make things fair. It's an overprotective mommy complex, not a lie.




I couldn't disagree more.

[Cat]

A reminder, Cat, of the origins of my post. I provided an example of why RD's sentence is not "so ridiculous" and neither you, nor Remali, acknowledged it, at all. You both just changed the subject. :rolleyes:

Didn't realize I had to acknowledge anything. :rolleyes: I didn't see anything in the clip you provided that was any more of a lie than what I have perceived coming from some republicans in the past. So I stated my opinion - both sides lie. It doesn't make it right, but its happens. I didn't change the subject, didn't deny that dems lie - just expanded the original statement to fit my opinion.

However, the fact that there are people on here trying to act like a certain group of politicians are saints and don't lie is quite laughable. :hysterical:

[WashingtonBoy]

An apology from the management...

We would like to apologize for the way in which politicians are represented on this forum. It was never our intention to imply that politicians are weak-kneed, political time-servers who are concerned more with their personal vendettas and private power struggles than the problems of government, nor to suggest at any point that they sacrifice their credibility by denying free debate on vital matters in the mistaken impression that party unity comes before the well-being of the people they supposedly represent nor to imply at any stage that they are squabbling little toadies without an ounce of concern for the vital social problems of today. Nor indeed do we intend that readers should consider them as crabby ulcerous little self-seeking vermin with furry legs and an excessive addiction to alcohol and certain explicit sexual practices which some people might find offensive.

We are sorry if this impression has come across.

:innocent:

[Cat]

I'd really like to believe that. I understand why it's a popular point of view. Nobody wants to believe that that really, really bad people exist and some of them are in charge. Oh they do exist and they are in charge - but on both sides!

Liberals cannot ~honestly~ believe that theirs is merely a "disagreement" about what's better. Some may be fooled into thinking that, but after a century or two of failed attempts at various expressions of socialism or communism... there really isn't much room left, on the left, for an intellectually honest person to argue that a centrally-planned totalitarian government is in ~any~ way really beneficial to it's people. They uniformly become cruel and despotic. Ours is no exception.

...and before anybody jumps on me for using the word "totalitarian"... think again. If you think that's not what liberals are all about, try this today:

-- Go into a bar in Seattle and merely light a cigarette.
-- Ride a bicycle without a helmet on. Where? Not a rule around here - motorcycles don't even require them.
-- Take your seatbelt off. Really? Seatbelt laws fall at the state level and even states who are predominantly republican have them. Not sure how this can be blamed on the dems.
-- Wish somebody "Merry Christmas" at the office. I really haven't seen this problem either here or when I went home to visit my family in MI. The news says its happening, but I haven't seen it.
-- Take your pocketknife to the airport. Um...might want to look as to when the heavy airport restrictions came into play...let me give you a little hint...it wasn't a dem in office!
-- (if you're on medicare) Try to pay your doctor with money. ?
-- Have your 7yr old daughter open a lemonade stand without a business license. Curious - was there an incident that included this?
-- Buy a rifle for a 10 year old. Friend just did. Bought her 9 year old & 11 year old one. No problems.
-- Buy a switchblade knife. The switchblade act was enacted under a republican.
-- Build a tool shed in your own back yard without permission from the county.
-- Buy a happy meal in San Francisco. No - I don't agree with what they did here, but there are happy meals that fall within the requirements set - 600 calories and fruit/veggies included.
-- Wear a cross with your business attire.
-- Put your 30-06 in your pickup's window gun rack so you can go hunting after school.
-- ...and on and on and on...

And then... think back to about 1965 or even 75... None of those things would've even batted a single eye. In fact... if you could go back in time to 1965 and tell people that all these things will be ILLEGAL in 2010, most people would probably have laughed.

Imagine what will be illegal in 2020, or 2030...

-- Driving alone, without a permission slip from the carpool authority.
-- Eating a steak (contraband red meat)
-- Eating bacon (non-halal foods outlawed).
-- Owning a car, without permission from the state transit authority.
-- Setting your thermostat to higher than 65 degrees.
-- Owning an incandescent light bulb.
-- Owning a gun.
-- Owning a knife. Of any kind.
-- Expressing an anti-government opinion.
-- Expressing an anti-muslim opinion. (Whoops... nevermind this one's already happened.
-- yadda yadda yadda...




Yes, these are concerns, but I don't think they were only brought on by liberals.

[Cat]

An apology from the management...

We would like to apologize for the way in which politicians are represented on this forum. It was never our intention to imply that politicians are weak-kneed, political time-servers who are concerned more with their personal vendettas and private power struggles than the problems of government, nor to suggest at any point that they sacrifice their credibility by denying free debate on vital matters in the mistaken impression that party unity comes before the well-being of the people they supposedly represent nor to imply at any stage that they are squabbling little toadies without an ounce of concern for the vital social problems of today. Nor indeed do we intend that readers should consider them as crabby ulcerous little self-seeking vermin with furry legs and an excessive addiction to alcohol and certain explicit sexual practices which some people might find offensive.

We are sorry if this impression has come across.

:innocent:

:hysterical: With that I have to sign off for now. Jury duty calls me away.

[magayle]

see....the amish don't bother with all the political BS....could have had a nice peaceful day visiting friends, cooking healthy food, playin' with the kids, tending the animals, sewing up a comfy quilt.....:)

[WashingtonBay]

Yes, these are concerns, but I don't think they were only brought on by liberals.

I will agree... with the clarification that they may have been brought on by liberal thinking, which doesn't only come from declared liberals :)

I think it's a mistake to fall into the trap of defending people, or parties, instead of principles. Because people will always fall short. Parties will always compromise. Stay focused on the principle, not the personality, and we don't end up finding ourselves hypocrites, defending behavior or decisions we wouldn't like if they came from the other side.

It's not a ball team, where we cheer the guy in the red jersey no matter which way he's running the ball. It's government, where we have to live with what these people do. Watch them all closely, no matter which jersey they're wearing.

[Remali]

Very good point magayle! :)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I will agree... with the clarification that they may have been brought on by liberal thinking, which doesn't only come from declared liberals :)

I think it's a mistake to fall into the trap of defending people, or parties, instead of principles. Because people will always fall short. Parties will always compromise. Stay focused on the principle, not the personality, and we don't end up finding ourselves hypocrites, defending behavior or decisions we wouldn't like if they came from the other side.

It's not a ball team, where we cheer the guy in the red jersey no matter which way he's running the ball. It's government, where we have to live with what these people do. Watch them all closely, no matter which jersey they're wearing.

Yes... absolutely. It's liberalism that's the problem, and the Republican party has been unfortunately polluted with many of them. Republicans have an annoying tendency toward spinelessness when it comes to dealing with the democrats. They think it's OK to compromise. Well, some things just aren't up for compromise. You don't "negotiate" about how much feces is acceptable in your ice cream. When good compromises with evil, evil wins.

[Cat]

Yes... absolutely. It's liberalism that's the problem, and the Republican party has been unfortunately polluted with many of them. Republicans have an annoying tendency toward spinelessness when it comes to dealing with the democrats. They think it's OK to compromise. Well, some things just aren't up for compromise. You don't "negotiate" about how much feces is acceptable in your ice cream. When good compromises with evil, evil wins.

Liberalism is the problem? Classic liberalism is the foundation of this country. Our constitution is based on classic liberal idealism. Its what drove the revolution and got us where we are today. However - things like the world wars and great depression changed what it encompassed and the fundamental beliefs had a shift in this "modern" liberalism. I don't think liberalism itself the evil here, but rather how some have ran with it.

[Tiz]

I didn't see anything in the clip you provided that was any more of a lie than what I have perceived coming from some republicans in the past.



Haha! I was just going to have a laugh over this, and then move on, but then I realized maybe you don't know what Nancy is lying about.

Since 2006, when she took the Speaker's position, our country has been encumbered with an ADDITIONAL 5 TRILLION DOLLARS in DEBT. Spending is directed by the House of Representatives, so that's Nancy's responsibility. The pay go reference in the clip is a hoot too.

Our founders were Libertarian, not liberals. In fact, I suspect there is much spinning going on in the graves of our ancestors at being associated with what that word has come to mean in politics.

[Cat]

Haha! I was just going to have a laugh over this, and then move on, but then I realized maybe you don't know what Nancy is lying about.

Since 2006, when she took the Speaker's position, our country has been encumbered with an ADDITIONAL 5 TRILLION DOLLARS in DEBT. Spending is directed by the House of Representatives, so that's Nancy's responsibility. The pay go reference in the clip is a hoot too.

Our founders were Libertarian, not liberals. In fact, I suspect there is much spinning going on in the graves of our ancestors at being associated with what that word has come to mean in politics.

Yes - the debt is all Nancy's fault. Wonderful - we can blame it on one person and be done. Love how life and politics is so simple. Best we just move on.

No - our founders were classic liberals. They term libertarian did not come until later - really didn't start being used in that context until about the 1950s.

[Tiz]

"Yes - the debt is all Nancy's fault. Wonderful - we can blame it on one person and be done. Love how life and politics is so simple. Best we just move on."


Absolutely, because the part of the conversation that involves you and me, Cat, keeps moving away from anything I said, or thought to say.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Liberalism is the problem? Classic liberalism is the foundation of this country. Our constitution is based on classic liberal idealism. Its what drove the revolution and got us where we are today. However - things like the world wars and great depression changed what it encompassed and the fundamental beliefs had a shift in this "modern" liberalism. I don't think liberalism itself the evil here, but rather how some have ran with it.

More or less true... but I'd add that classical liberalism was what conservatism is today. Liberalism has reformed itself to be indistinguishable from "progressivism" or said more plainly: Marxist socialism. Liberals don't like being called Marxists, but when you get right down to it there isn't much difference. It's all about class warfare anymore, for them.