leg wraps, sport boots...

[Gem's Mom]

I'm trying to figure out what kind of leg wraps, sport boots or whatever will help my mare Glory. We got her over the summer from a polo barn for free. She was injured in the pasture over the winter and can't play anymore. Her left fetlock has very limited range of motion. The vet who treated her said she'd be fine for trail riding. With the limited rom in that joint she has a funny gait. She also puts more stress on her good front leg. Her gait felt more normal when I tried a pair of old macs on her, the padding probably helped a lot. I'd like to help support her good leg too. My only experience with boots has been for brushing/interference so I'm not sure what kind would be best for adding support. Any ideas?

[HeartofSteel]

These are supposedly really good, I have never tried them myself but a lot of people I know have and love them
http://www.westernlegacysales.com/iconoclast_equine_orthopedic.php

[luv2show]

For support, I would definitely go with Sport Medicine Boots.

http://www.profchoice.com/htmldocs/prd/protgear/index0.html
(you can also find a sizing chart on this site!)

They are pricey, so maybe try looking on ebay or something like that, or wait until they go on-sale in stores! Good luck :)

[PatriotsDreamer]

Hey sara, just so you know full protection boots actually weaken the leg more, yes it provides support to the leg, but the tendons and ligaments are used less due to the support which weakens them and will make her more prone to reinjuring that leg or her other ones I would only use splints/ bell boots on her if shes clipping, otherwise i would NOT boot her legs

[TLC97]

I have to disagree with Patriots. After psycho horse had his surgery of DDFT (deep digital flexor tendon) 3 seperate vets told me to make sure he had boots on or wraps when he was trailering or being ridden for support.

It can be a matter of preference in boots vs. wraps. For me it depends on what I am doing and the temperature out and the conditions I will be riding in.

[mare]

Overall, I agree with PatriotsDreamer. Boots and wraps are overused to the detriment of horses.

TLC97 - Your horse had a very unusual occurance. If his surgery didn't go great, then he probably does need boots and/or wraps. But it's just one example of when boots or wraps are truly necessary.

Re: Glory - her injured fetlock is probably super-duper stable :) secondary to adhesions from the injury. The problem on that side will be possible soreness when she stretches it beyond the length of the scarring (not necessarily a bad thing, but will cause soreness). So looking at her compensating and the additional stress on the other forefoot: Less can still be more. I personally would prefer to wrap with a polo wrap because it conforms better to the leg and the fibers expand and contract with the movement of the leg.

A boot, even a well padded one does not provide the same stretch and support.

The challenge becomes wrapping well with a polo for what will benefit each leg. There are some awful examples on youtube. It would be great if you could go back to the polo barn where you got her and a groom there worked with you on it. Ooops, maybe you're really familiar with wrapping, too, sorry.

[zoel_222]

I agree with mare

[offgridgirl]

Hey I just got some supportive split boots for my old man! They are called Equine Classic I only use them when I am doing serious workouts. If I'm going for hour or so I don't use them. Here's a link! I like them cuz them conform to the leg with four velcro bands and have an extra protective piece at the rear for the fetlock.

http://www.equibrand.com/en/_hs/ProductList.aspx?C=Equine&PC=301&PSC=3001

[Gem's Mom]

I wasn't planning on putting anything on her "bad" leg for support (perhaps something to cover it up to look better?), looking for something to add support to the good leg that's working harder. I don't remember how to polo wrap but I can probably get help with that pretty easy. When I was doing it every day I was good at it lol, just gotta remember how! I guess for simplicity sake though I'd prefer something that I could just velcro on. But if I can't find that I'll do the wrapping. So now I need red polo wraps lol

Thanks for all the insight :-)

[HeartofSteel]

Victory Canter has polo wraps on final sale right now and for a set of 4 there $7.95 for pony or $9.95 for horse, they have some good colors left :) I ordered me a pair of Lavender ones

[mare]

Victory Canter has polo wraps on final sale right now and for a set of 4 there $7.95 for pony or $9.95 for horse, they have some good colors left :) I ordered me a pair of Lavender ones

That's a great price!

Off to go shopping.

[ellie_x]

defiently go for sport medication boots :)
iv used them before and there really good!

[Tiz]

There is such tremendous psi(pounds per square inch)force employed in a horse's movement, I doubt boots or wraps are capable of truly supporting anything. I think they are mostly for the horse's human. That said, I would choose the boots over the wraps. They have no opportunity for being applied incorrectly and may be supportive. Polos are for protection from hitting, getting stepped on, or getting whacked, not necessarily for supporting the leg.

I don't agree with PD or mare about support devices actually weakening tendons and ligaments. The physics just don't work for that.

I just bought a set of boots from Vegashorselady, Gem. If they don't fit my horses, you're welcome to them if you want them.

[mare]

Found this gem of a video. Defines protection vs. support, gives a short overview of anatomy of the lower leg.

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2010/09/leg-boots-for-sport-horses-protection.html

[FredRock]

I really like that video, mare.

I was about to post that there's really no support available from boots/polos before I watched the video. It's a human invention that support is possible, to sell owners/riders a product. With everything that can go wrong with boots and wraps, I tend to avoid them unless the activities involved have risks that are greater than the risks of boots.

I would opt out of boots or wraps. They can't offer support and unless she has a problem with overreach or clipping, there isn't much that they can do for her. If she seems better in the Old Macs I would keep using them and see how she goes.

[Country Girl 43]

Interesting thread....

I use the Legacy Sport boots on my horses for the barrel racing. HOWEVER.... Missy's legs have puffed up on me twice since we started using them on her. :huh: And as you know, she is lame right now. :(

I haven't watched the video yet, but I will when I have more time. It might change my way of thinking.

Anyone else have anymore info from vets about Sport Boots???

[Tiz]

I'm trying to hang in and watch this whole thing. Can someone tell me if it's a video of a lecture, or does it actually show the protective qualities of boots, or wraps?

[Gem's Mom]

Well I started it downloading... I'm gonna go out and feed while I'm waiting

[Tiz]

Well, I started skipping forward and saw the part that depicted a jug of something being dropped on a carrot, crushing it. I'll come back to this when I have time, but for the time being, the lecturer lost me when he said the carrot was comparative to tendon being subjected to a hit. I'll check back to be sure I heard him right, but if I did, that's ridiculous.

[FredRock]

Well, I started skipping forward and saw the part that depicted a jug of something being dropped on a carrot, crushing it. I'll come back to this when I have time, but for the time being, the lecturer lost me when he said the carrot was comparative to tendon being subjected to a hit. I'll check back to be sure I heard him right, but if I did, that's ridiculous.

He does eventually show you the results. I wish that I had his research in a paper or pdf format so I could see the tables better and get more details (particularily when it comes to concussion absorbtion). I'd also like to see the weight after taking on water and what materials each boot had or if they did list manufacturers.

His presentation is set up like ascientific research reort. The first part gives the background, then the problem, then what he's trying to find out. He then gives you how he's measuring these things. Finally he gives the results and implications. Since it's a speech, he finishes with a brief summary. There are also other variations because it's a speech and not a written report.

The carrot might have been overkill. I think they got a little smash-happy and decided to throw it in for showmanship. He would have been fine leaving the explanation at the apple-soda-bottle-brick ideas.

ETA: So it does give the protective and supportive capabilities, Tiz. He just takes his time to show it.

[Tiz]

Carrots don't resemble tendons, in any way.

[AUEquine]

Anyone else have anymore info from vets about Sport Boots???
Well I know Cash has some DJD issues in his right hind fetlock joint, as well as a fused bone chip. Every surgeon I work horse has advised me to always have support on him when working/riding. That would be 5 board certified equine surgeons.

Also as a human athlete who has had numerous injuries, support braces and wraps are essential for strenuous physical activity. Once you have an injury the joint/ligament/tendon is never going to be the same. So it does need some support.

[FredRock]

Carrots don't resemble tendons, in any way.

No, they don't.

If he used a synthetic tendon replica to demonstrate the machine, it would go over the crowd's head. The ordinary person never holds a tendon in their hands or even knows what it takes to break it. The carrot never appears again, even when they test the boots.

Like I said, I feel the carrot and twig were overkill. We really didn't need to see it and it doesn't hold much bearing on the rest of the study. I think it was added showmanship for the crowd.

ETA: I could have sworn that from the time we were on horse.com it was general consensus that boots and polos provided little, if any, support. That was what I remember from a few threads about SMBs and the like- they don't provide the support they claim.

[Gem's Mom]

omg, I'm 5 min into his lecture and I'm already bored to death. Not a good lecturer!

Anywho, can anyone summarize?

[miatapony]

I ride in ProChoice no matter what or how long i ride... all 4 too .. and that video is OMG boring... sorry i didnt make it through.

[mare]

The vet who presented on the video is campaigning to have boots tested as stringently as human products. He does not say all boots are bad, or, never use boots.

He challenges horse people to weight the benefit of Protection (some boots protect from concussive forces - some don't) vs. restriction (inhibiting the horses conformation from working for him), comfort (some rigid boots can cause superficial injury), weight (some boots are padded with material that absorbs water and will double the weight of the boot), and heat (tendon cells are sensitive to heat and boots the hold heat in can cause a breakdown, a weakening of the tendons causing lameness).

[Tiz]

The seminar was sponsored by http://trizoneboots.com/ and http://www.worldequestrianbrands.com/.

My veterinarian aquaintances, all in practice for 35 plus years, on the race track and in the H/J/Eventing world, recomend that when you consider the accuracy of any study, it's a good idea to "follow the money". Not to mean that anyone involved is lying, but their language can be left intentionally open to interpretation, and people will take away what they wanted to hear anyway. Makes sense to me.

[mare]

The seminar was sponsored by http://trizoneboots.com/ and http://www.worldequestrianbrands.com/.

My veterinarian aquaintances, all in practice for 35 plus years, on the race track and in the H/J/Eventing world, recomend that when you consider the accuracy of any study, it's a good idea to "follow the money". Not to mean that anyone involved is lying, but their language can be left intentionally open to interpretation, and people will take away what they wanted to hear anyway. Makes sense to me.

LOL. If he was stumping for a manufacturer is was a FAIL. He did not name any brands, only provided points to consider and why.

Your vets gave you good advice about "following the money." I'm approached every week by salesmen wanted me to endose this or that. I don't.

[Tiz]

I didn't get through the entire video, mare, but if he made the case for the use of support boots, and his research(his income producing job)was paid for by support boot manufacturers, it wasn't a fail. It paid his bills.

Miata, that sounds hot and uncomfortable.

[mare]

I didn't get through the entire video, mare, but if he made the case for the use of support boots, and his research(his income producing job)was paid for by support boot manufacturers, it wasn't a fail. It paid his bills.

Miata, that sounds hot and uncomfortable.

He said toward the end that 'at this time, there is not a boot available that provides support, only protection against penetrative and concussive forces' (paraphrasing pretty close).

He DID mention a team of researchers at Tufts University that is working to develop a system of boots that will support the structures most often injured in sport horses. He is not on the team, only interested in their work.

[Gem's Mom]

Soooooo basically boots and wraps won't do anything to support her leg, just to provide protection in case she bangs them on something? Is that the jist? If so, I may just end up with red smb type boots... that way I can cover up her ugly fetlock lol and not have people asking me what's wrong with her all the time.

[mare]

Soooooo basically boots and wraps won't do anything to support her leg, just to provide protection in case she bangs them on something? Is that the jist? If so, I may just end up with red smb type boots... that way I can cover up her ugly fetlock lol and not have people asking me what's wrong with her all the time.

It sounds like that is as good a reason as any!

I wish you the best with her. She's a lucky horse to have been found by you.

[Gem's Mom]

Just wait till I put more pics up of her.... she's FAT now lol I'll take the camera out tomorrow and get some new pics

oh and this is the "ugly" leg I'd be covering up
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_53YAnhL9yaw/TBu5NCqqjDI/AAAAAAAAGw8/lxCIbcxgqhQ/s512/CIMG3965.JPG

[AUEquine]

What exactly is the injury? That would be my main question. Depending on the exact nature of the injury would determine if boots are good option.

For Cash he has to have boots on his RH Fetlock. The heat is good for it, it keeps the blood flowing and the joint loose. It also provides pressure which prevents excessive swelling (he gets an ice wrap after running).
As a human with many injuries and arthritis, I have even wrapped a polo wrap around my knee when it was sore. And it did provide support and helped alot. I feel it was mostly from the pressure applied to the joint. Kept things from wiggling around too much.

[Gem's Mom]

I'm not positive what the injury was. I need to grill the vet next time I see her. She's not my usual vet, she just comes out with the dentist in the spring. Anyways, she said the horse was found injured in the pasture. She was then put in a stall and had daily wound treatment and injections, all of which this vet did herself. Until she was healed up enough to go back out in the pasture. That's about all I got on the injury itself. The vet did say that it doesn't hurt her and she's fine for trails, maybe more. We'd just have to see how she does. I'm still getting used to her "normal" gimp so I can tell when we've over done it and she's too gimpy.

That's not swelling in her leg, its just that fat now. Her fetlock doesn't move much, when you lift her leg like to pick the foot you can only move her hoof forwards and back about 1-2 inches tops. If I stick a boot on that leg it'll just be on tight enough not to slide off, just to cover it up.

Here's a pic I found of normal fetlock movement. I haven't looked at her that close in a while but from memory I'd say Glory is stuck right around the 3 and 4a movements.
http://theorythursday.com/images/stride_phases.jpg

I know for sure she can't do the 1 or 2 or 5. So she lifts her shoulder up more to compensate for the non rolling of her foot, which makes her land harder on her good leg and kind of move at a gimp. And she lands pretty hard on that bad leg because the fetlock doesn't flex to absorb the shock.

You'll have to wait for the snow to go away for me to take some video.

[Tiz]

http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/ceh/docs/special/Pubs-SuspBrochure-bkm-sec.pdf

[TLC97]

Interesting article Tiz, some good points in it and well worth the read.

As I stated before and will again, 5 vets, UCDavis, Cornell, New England Equine and my local vet ALL told me that protective boots/wraps should be worn after almost any tendon injury. I did ask about proventive also (for what I was paying for $$$$$$ to get the consults I was going to ask tons of questions). All stated that it was good to use them as there were no studies to prove they were harmful, only polo wraps applied incorrectly, which anyone knows.

[Tiz]

I'm not positive what the injury was. I need to grill the vet next time I see her.

.


Oh, I posted the UCDavis information thinking it looked like a suspensory injury. It's great that you can find out exactly what it is from the vet that took care of her. I'll be curious about it.

Her feet look awful! What is going on there, do you know?

[mare]

Nice article, Tiz. Good graphics, too.

I didn't like the looks of her hooves either and wonder why they are like that, too.

[AUEquine]

Interesting article Tiz, some good points in it and well worth the read.

As I stated before and will again, 5 vets, UCDavis, Cornell, New England Equine and my local vet ALL told me that protective boots/wraps should be worn after almost any tendon injury. I did ask about proventive also (for what I was paying for $$$$$$ to get the consults I was going to ask tons of questions). All stated that it was good to use them as there were no studies to prove they were harmful, only polo wraps applied incorrectly, which anyone knows.

I agree! The only way they would harm or 'weaken' the leg is if they were worn 24/7.

[Gem's Mom]

Those are pics from after her being here just a few days. Her feet were just terrible. Now they'll be looking good as new after the next trim. That wavy, cracked, yucky hoof is almost all grown out. Her angles and stuff might be different now too, I haven't paid attention to how they have/haven't changed and right now they're hard to see in the snow.

She was in god awful condition when I got her. Her coat was all nasty, the whole top half of her had rain rot. Waaay too thin, just ICKY. I really wonder why they even bothered fixing her leg since they knew she wouldn't play polo again if they weren't going to keep her in somewhat decent shape? I mean what would they have done with a horse looking that shitty and not totally sound?

[Tiz]

I wonder what kind of diet she was eating, or drugs she was getting, to produce feet like that. Long term too, because the feet were weird top to bottom. Interesting.

This is kind of a mystery case to me. I'm surprised that a vet was involved with treating her because the injury looks like it didn't have much done with it.

[Gem's Mom]

I was just assuming it was pretty mangled by the time anyone noticed she was injured. So the vet was probably starting the treatment after her leg was already trying to heal on its own.

I'm not much for phone conversations and I won't see this vet until it warms up (teeth floating time) so I guess it'll just be a mystery till then lol