Deworming opinions

[sgttibbs521]

Hello! I was wondering what is your guys' opinion on worming your horse(s). How often, what you use, etc....The barn manager always use to take care of buying the wormer and now I'm getting it myself. I was just looking for some other opinions! Thanks!

[Arrow]

I just moved to a place yesterday where I have to take care of it instead of the BM, so I await responses myself...

[sgttibbs521]

There are a few different opinions out there like to rotate wormers and not to rotate wormers, which to use, and all that stuff, which can be kind of confusing...

[WashingtonBay]

I have a lot of conflicted ideas about it and I've been doing it for years!

I used to just rotate them around and hopefully catch everything eventually, but I was never really sure. I'd never seen any evidence that they ever had anything to begin with!

So I've started taking in fecal samples to the vets a few times a year to have them look. Then I at least know what to worm for next and it's not JUST a game of pin the tail on the donkey.

Ryle will hopefully come by with an informative post too.

[zoel_222]

This is how I deworm my horses:

January- Pyrantel Pamoate
March- Ivermectin w/Praziquantel
May- Ivermectin
July- Pyrantel Pamoate
September- Ivermectin
November- Moxidectin w/Praziquantel

[sgttibbs521]

my friend has been worming her horses for 6 yrs now and she uses ivermectin and hasn't rotated or nothing and hasn't had worms, but then there's the barn manager (a quite overcontrolling person!) who swears on rotating...i don't know what to really do...

[sgttibbs521]

This is how I deworm my horses:

January- Pyrantel Pamoate
March- Ivermectin w/Praziquantel
May- Ivermectin
July- Pyrantel Pamoate
September- Ivermectin
November- Moxidectin w/Praziquantel


thanks! i've seen schedules like that before and makes sense!

[westmanfarrier]

There is a lot of info out there. Here are a couple of links from the AAEP (American Assn. of Equine Practitioners) i.e. equine vet organization.

http://www.aaep.org/health_articles_view.php?id=125
http://www.anslab.iastate.edu/Class/AnS216/Health%20Hints.htm - scroll down past vaccinations to deworming info.

[zoel_222]

thanks! i've seen schedules like that before and makes sense!

You want to go by your area and what worms are there during what times of the year. The best way to start is to give a fecal sample to your vet so you can figure out just exactly what you're up against. Then you could probably alter this schedule to fit your horse's needs.

[sgttibbs521]

thanks for all the info!

[Ryle]

Here's a link to my long-winded post about deworming:)
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=783&highlight=deworming
(Can we make this thread sticky? Deworming questions are some of the most common on any horse forum.)

The problem with the deworming program listed in the posts above is it doesn't take into account the egg reappearance periods for the drugs used and if you are going to just deworm regularly you need to because your goal should be to cut down the parasite load on your pasture so that you can eventually cut way back on how often you deworm. If you have a heavy burden of parasite ova on your pastures, if you deworm based upon egg reappearance times for 1 year (and you are focusing mainly on strongyles because you have adult horses), the next year you should have drastically reduced the parasite burden on the pasture by minimizing how many new parasite ova make it onto the pasture in your horse's manure. This will allow you to go to deworming based upon fecal egg counts so that you only use chemicals as necessary. This is very important because resistance is such a HUGE issue and we only have so many drugs available--when the parasites are resistant to those we are going to have to go looking for new ones which may or may not be found quickly and will lead to substantial cost for deworming.

We should all really be looking at assessing our horse's situation and making an informed decision on when to deworm and how often based upon KNOWING what his parasite load is like.

[John Boy]

Contact your vet when you hit Wisconsin soil.
Summer make sure you have a Bot dewormer , they include that now.
----------
Also depends on if you have one horse in pasture or several .

[Buckpoco]

I use daily wormer (CW) and then worm with zimectrin gold in March and November. I had a fecal count done on one horse and he was good. There's so much info out there now saying that these don't work...so far we're doing OK.

[Ryle]

Just make sure you are doing your fecal egg counts long enough AFTER your paste dewormings so that you are actually getting a reading on how well the daily product is working rather than how well the paste is working. You would want to wait 10+ weeks after using the Zimectrin before pulling a fecal.

[Remali]

I like to worm every other month, and I avoid Quest. Also, I like to have ALL the horses wormed at the same time, if possible. I've never done a fecal, but there are those that do.....I've never had any troubles.

[BalooEyes]

My BO doesn't rotate and just uses Ivermectin. She hasn't had a problem at all yet. I am currently in the midst of PowerPacking Baloo, as the BO thinks he may have a tapeworm that is causing so many issues with his weight gain, and is showing signs that my previous rescue did when he was overly wormy. Argh to new horses and the issues they come with...

[Ryle]

My BO doesn't rotate and just uses Ivermectin. She hasn't had a problem at all yet. I am currently in the midst of PowerPacking Baloo, as the BO thinks he may have a tapeworm that is causing so many issues with his weight gain, and is showing signs that my previous rescue did when he was overly wormy. Argh to new horses and the issues they come with...

First, unless your BO is having fecal egg counts run before and after deworming she can't know if there is any resistance to ivermectin developing. I would hope that she is basing her deworming program on some diagnostics and assessment of the overall management situation.

Second, if your BO is having you treat for tapeworms by using a powerpac that is a clue that he/she doesn't know as much about deworming as she should to be making deworming recommendations. Panacur Powerpac doesn't kill tapeworms in horses. And even with these outward "symptoms" that a previous horse showed when he was wormy, you simply can't assess parasite load without doing some diagnostic testing. Even with doing fecal egg counts, you are still just making an educated guess as to parasite load and that is with actually looking for proof of a parasite load.

The only two options for treatment of tapeworms in horses is either praziquantel (which is only sold in combination with ivermectin or moxidectin) or a double dose of pyrantel (Strongid).

[vicklynn]

What Ryle said. Sounds like your BO needs a class on worming.

[HoustonFarrier]

I am a big fan of Strongid Daily wormer, and then the vet tube worms/pastes them twice a year.

Steve

[BalooEyes]

Ah! This is what I hate about dewormers.... it always says something contradictory somewhere about them... I can read 10 places that it says that the double dose of Fenbenzadole kills tapes, then read ten more places that it doesn't.

Well, my BO does have them monitored yearly by the vet and has 4 rather large pastures she rotates them through throughout the year to keep poop to a minimum.

Better than the crazies at the last barn I was at... they insisted they only needed to worm during the summer because a horse just couldn't get worms over the winter...
yeah... sure, lady.

If worms (hypothetically no tapes) were the problem, how long after the powerpac would I expect to see weight gain? He gets 2 large scoops of Triple Crown Complete 2x a day, plus about 2-3 flakes of hay 2x a day, so he is getting a good aount of quality feed. and he's a friggin QH!

[Ryle]

Ah! This is what I hate about dewormers.... it always says something contradictory somewhere about them... I can read 10 places that it says that the double dose of Fenbenzadole kills tapes, then read ten more places that it doesn't.



Where are you reading this, because it is most certainly not on the label for the product nor in the studies where it's efficacy against GI parasites was established. You may be reading from sites for a different species because Fenbendazole will treat tapeworms in CATTLE, but not in horses.

Well, my BO does have them monitored yearly by the vet and has 4 rather large pastures she rotates them through throughout the year to keep poop to a minimum.

The question then becomes, at what point after deworming is your BO collecting fecal samples for the vet to test? If too soon after deworming they won't tell you if the parasite load in that horse is normally high or if the horse is not picking up many parasites from the pasture, just that the last deworming drug used was effective at removing the adult parasites. Timing of testing fecal samples is very important to actually give you GOOD information.

Also, unless she is leaving horses off of a pasture for several months, rotating isn't doing that much to help with parasite contamination in the pastures. It takes MONTHS for infective larva to die at moderate temperatures and they and eggs can overwinter. Even in really hot weather (I'm talking 100+ temps and low humidity) you need to leave a horse off a pasture for at least a month after harrowing to allow the strongyle larva to die off quite a bit.

Better than the crazies at the last barn I was at... they insisted they only needed to worm during the summer because a horse just couldn't get worms over the winter...
yeah... sure, lady.

If you are in very cold country---lots of snow and cold temperatures--then it's very likely that you don't need to deworm during the winter. Strongyle eggs don't develope into infective larva at really cold temperature (like below 40 degrees) and they also use grass as a means up infecting your horse--the larva climb up blades of grass to be eaten, tapeworms require grass mites for transmission---no grass, no grass mites. Those are the common problem parasites for adult horses and they aren't a big concern in really cold temps so many vets in the far nothern US recommend deworming after the first hard freeze with ivermectin or moxidectin plus praziquantel and then not deworming again until spring.


If worms (hypothetically no tapes) were the problem, how long after the powerpac would I expect to see weight gain? He gets 2 large scoops of Triple Crown Complete 2x a day, plus about 2-3 flakes of hay 2x a day, so he is getting a good aount of quality feed. and he's a friggin QH!

How old is this horse? How much does each scoop of feed weigh? How much do the flakes of hay weigh? What kind of hay is it? Have his teeth been checked?

[BalooEyes]

Thanks or all the info, Cindy. It helps to have someone more knowledgeable about this stuff help me sort through it.


How old is this horse? How much does each scoop of feed weigh? How much do the flakes of hay weigh? What kind of hay is it? Have his teeth been checked?

Baloo is 13, the scoops are each about 3 pounds. The hay is an orchard grass/timothy mix and the size of the flakes vary, but I would say each flake is maybe 3-4 lbs. His teeth were done this June and the vet did say he had a lot of sharps that he had to file down. Next spring he will be getting an actual dentist, but the vet was all I could get out this summer because of it just being him needing done.

[Ryle]

Do you have any current pictures of this guy? Does he have any history of medical problems?

[BalooEyes]

These are the latest photos I have of him, no older than a month ago. His weight has been fairly stable since the pictures, maybe lost a bit since then. Of course when I bought him this summer I was told he had no history of problems... but who knows, some people will say anything to sell a horse. You can't see so much in the photos, but he is ribby.

He's not severely underweight or anything, but he could definitely use more weight. He has filled out muscle-wise, but hasn't been able to gain that fat layer he needs, and with winter coming up (or here now, I guess. It snowed today!) its really really worrying me. He comes into a stall at night, is always grained inside his stall so he gets all his food, has a medium weight blanket, is happy with his herd (he's the head "stallion", lol) and is regularly exercised on trails and some ring work.

Our next step if the worming doesn't work, I was going to have some bloodwork or a scope for ulcers done to see if something else is wrong. He is touchy around his stomach and girth area, but the last rescue I had that was really wormy was too, so I'm hoping the cause if that is worms, not something else. The last guy's touchiness went away after the vet tube wormed him.

[BalooEyes]

Oh, also, if it is tapes, and the fenbenzadole 2x dose doesn't do tapes in horses, how soon would it be safe to use the pyrantel pamoate?

[Ryle]

You could dose in just a few days with the pyrantel. However, I would wait at least 4 weeks and give the GI tract some time to recover after the panacur. But tapeworms don't generally cause weight issues---the concern with tapes is that they have been implicated in certain types of colic because they congregate in a narrowing in the intestines.

[FlitterBug]

Balooeyes, I could be wrong, but from looking at the pictures of your horse, I think you are dealing with more of a conditioning issue than a weight issue. I don't think he is carrying himself properly, which is why he is not developing in certain areas and over developing in other areas. Sometimes, these horses can appear to be hard keepers because their topline never fills out properly, I find this is often due to posture rather than nutrition. Like I said, I could be wrong, can be hard to tell from pics, just food for thought.

[Mica&Me]

The big discussion regarding daily wormers vs paste wormers made the rounds of our stable last spring. I board Mica with 8 other horses. We use the same Vet to save on fees and have work done over a few days if not all in the same day and split the farm call.

We did get a list of which paste wormers to use in which months for our area of the State from him. Now all the horses are rotated on the same wormers during the same months. We have him do worm checks on the horses during the same months also. The hope being that with all the horses on the same paste and being checked worms won't get a foothold.

Just a thought.

[Ryle]

That is one way of approaching parasite control in boarding situations. The plan being that if you are using dewormers at appropriate intervals (at the end of the egg reappearance period for the last dewormer used) that you are minimizing egg shedding into the pasture. And if all of the horses are on a good schedule (whether it's the same month or just that they are deworming based upon the egg reappearance period of the last drug used) then you are minimizing egg shedding into the pasture by all the horses on it and so helping to decrease the risk of reinfection. This sort of program has been used on several breeding farms and has proven effective at reducing the parasite load on pastures so that in a year's time they could go to just deworming based upon fecal egg counts. That should be the goal of this sort of deworming program rather than just continuing to steadily deworm very regularly---again, the more often the parasites are exposed to the drugs the faster they can build resistance to them so we need to focus on cutting back on the overall number of dewormings.

[BalooEyes]

Balooeyes, I could be wrong, but from looking at the pictures of your horse, I think you are dealing with more of a conditioning issue than a weight issue. I don't think he is carrying himself properly, which is why he is not developing in certain areas and over developing in other areas. Sometimes, these horses can appear to be hard keepers because their topline never fills out properly, I find this is often due to posture rather than nutrition. Like I said, I could be wrong, can be hard to tell from pics, just food for thought.

Thanks for the thoughts. Yes, he can be terribly unmotivated, but my trainer and I are really working on him, and out on the trails he really perks up and comes around nicely. In the ring he's all drudgery and tries to revert to his evil WP ways.

He has actually built up an amazing (comparatively) amount of muscle along his topline and in his hindquarters since I brought him to my trainers, but unfortunately the fat hasn't come with it. He's quite ribby, ribby enough to have to attribute it to weight, and not that he's lacking in muscle tone. I had originally brushed it off to conditioning, but then it seemed to get worse, and then came the touchiness, and I just got deja-vu of Jasper when I had first got him. Baloo is getting so much feed (high-fat feed, too) and hay (he was just upped to 3 large flakes at night) that I would expect to see some fat on him.

Anyway, his 5-day course is done so I'm just praying that was the problem. If not, I may get the vet out (the chiro, also a vet, expressed some concern last time he was out) our lessons will continue and hopefully something will right itself.

[offgridgirl]

Good thread!! I've just noticed that I've got lavea in the manure. I will dose again with ivermectrin as it has been 6 weeks....hopefully that will be it til spring....

[Ryle]

The larva of GI parasites aren't visible with the naked eye.