Muffins Hoof Issue! Abscess, Founder?

[IrisGreen]

Ok, I am concerned about Muffins front hooves. He's not lame or limping at all and doesn't seem to be in pain. But, his hooves are warm in the front, and I think there might be a spot on the front of one that is soft right under the coronary band that might end up blowing out an abscess.

I have never dealt with this before so I am just guessing. I compared the heat from his front to the heat from his back and the front is warmer but I have never really paid attention to how warm they are normally so I could just be imagining it.

His hooves are dirty and his hair is long so after he is done eating I'm going to go out there and shave up his hair and wash this hooves good so I can take some pictures and see better what might be going on.

His hooves are flaring out so I am also worried about founder though hes not limping. His hooves always start to flare before he needs a trim.

He is 6 weeks 3 days into his last trim and due anytime. We keep him scheduled between 6-8 weeks.

I will get some pictures as soon as I can. I think I will have to go down and get a rubber wash mat to keep him of the mud for clean pictures. Plus, I will need it if he does blow an abscess as a clean area to work on.

[IrisGreen]

I'm headed to TSC right now to pick up a few mats, vet wrap and some other supply's I might need. Once I get back I will work on cleaning him up and getting some pictures.

I know :worthless: .

I will get some good ones once I get back. Thankx for your help in advance :) My Farrier is putting on a clinic today so I won't be able to get him out here tell tomorrow at the soonest. Yes, I will call him and have him take a look tomorrow.

[lovesfortune]

Sounds like you are on top of things! Definitely let us know when you get pictures and how Muffin is doing when you get back.

[WashingtonBay]

Abscesses are incredibly painful. Imagine swelling inside a closed capsule that can't expand. They're usually incredibly lame if that's what's going on.

Any reason why he would founder? He's on a dry lot with a fairly consistent diet isn't he? And again, he'd be lame.

Curious to see what you're seeing.

[alittleoffkey]

Abcesses are very painful, very, very painful. I imagine they're kinda like slamming your finger in the door and having that blood pool under your nail - OUCH! Until you poke a hole in your nail to let out the pressure (or an abcess blows) it's an amazing amount of pain - and you certainly don't stand on your fingernails.

Legacy's feet are generally different temperatures, mainly because he likes to stand facing the sun, so it hits the front of his front hooves. His front feet - 9 times out of ten - are warmer than his backs. Daisy has striped hooves and her more-black feet are normally much warmer than her more-white feet.

Just trying to offer some alternative explanations. :) I hope he is alright, I'm awaiting the pics as well. :)

[Vacker Hast]

I'm at my home awaiting the pic's along with everybody else. I just came back from Erin's yesterday afternoon after being out there for three days and two nights so I'll see what Erin finds when she cleans Muffin's hooves before driving back out there.

Muffin is strong on his feet so I'm hoping it's not an abcess and I agree with everybody on that issue that it would be painful and would show it. Also, as ALOK said the sun could be making the front a lot warmer so I'm waiting along with you guys.

It's great having this forum to communicate and, also, post pic's to help try to identify a potential problem!!! Erin does a great job on keeping me informed without the panic .... well, I take that back lol maybe this is the only time without the panic. Hopefully, if anything, Muffin is just a bit swollen from all that playing with his new ball.

Sincerely, Stacy

[IrisGreen]

Thankx everyone :) Well, I got back from TSC. Didn't realize how heavy those stall mats are!!! I managed to drag one in to his pen with a back and forth action, of course telling Muffin to back because he wanted to help me lift the mat:p

I shaved one hoof, the one I felt the soft spot on and here is what I found.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves002.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves001.jpg


A slit! It's not open, I pressed on it and it doesnt seem to hurt him. He just stood there munching on his cubes. It's on his coranary band and soft to the touch but not ozzing or anything. It's just dry but the flys go after the crack. That's right at his hair line so I wonder if it's just packed up dirt with a crack in it or a real crack? It's soft around it but doesnt hurt Muffin to press on it.

I shaved the other hoof after I took these pictures. I'm using a little tiny clipper so I needed to charge it again. Muffin has thick hair around his hooves. Now that I have both fronts shaved I can wash his hooves and get all the dry mud and dirt off to see what that really is.

Chris is on his way home and should be here any second so he can hold Muffin while I wash and brush his hooves clean.

[PatriotsDreamer]

It looks to me like he just clipped his hoof on something... probably romping around playing( if its indeed not dirt) the band is always softer than the rest of the hoof so that may be what your feeling.

[JackieB]

Buster did something that looked almost exactly like that earlier this year. I guessed that he must have swung his foot forward and slammed the hoof into something with a bit of an edge on it. I first noticed it up near the top, just a little bit below where Muffin's is located. It never seemed to cause him any trouble and eventually (over a period of 8 months or so) traveled all the way down until it got to the end and went away.

His hoof sure looks flared there at the quarters. A good farrier should be able to work that away over time with proper trimming. If you took some shots from the bottom, HF and WF would probably be willing to give you some advice. They've really helped me in the past and Buster's feet are looking great now.

[IrisGreen]

Thanks Patriots and JackieB. Chris just got home and is cooling off for a bit (it's 85+ out side today!) then we are going to go out there and put the other mat down, clean his hooves and take some pictures from all angles and under.

His hooves flare some when it comes time to get trimmed but this time it is much worse. That's why I was thinking fonder possibly because they sure flared much worse this time. When I get the front view shots you will see why I am worried. Because they are really flared all the way around.

I want to get some really good pics of his hooves so we can compare them to pics after my farrier comes out and trims him next. I really like my farrier I just hope he is doing a good job and I know you guys/gals will let me know what you think with out knowing the guy personally.

[IrisGreen]

Ok, We went out there as Muffin was playing with his cone running around having a blast :innocent:. Picked out his feet, washed and brushed them off and took some pictures. All while trying to stay on the little rubber mat and not step in the dirt. Chris held Muffin but that didn't make it any easyer... I forgot that Muffin thinks Chris is a big push over and was trying to play with him the whole time....grrrr.

So, we got it done and before I got the pictures of the bottom of his feet Muffin was pushing Chris a little too much for my liking. Nothing major just fidgeting when Chris told him to stand or eating the rope, trying to eat his shirt and just being a goof and not listening to Chris. Which puts me in danger being under him working with his feet. So I had to have Chris get on to him and make him back up and listen. This took more of me getting on to Chris then Chris getting on to Muffin. :nono: They were both looking at me in attention by the time all was said and done!! hahahah Chris made Muffin back and demanded it as I was giving him step by step instructions and making him get harder on Muffin. But, he got it done and Muffin started listening to him like he should. uugggg it's hard when Chris is such a push over and Muffin knows it too. That's a whole nother thread topic. Thank goodness Muffin is such a good horse because Chris barely pulls on his halter and that's his idea of being firm with Muffin and demanding he back :huh:. I think Muffin did it just because I was getting more stern with Chris and Muffin picked up on that and did what Chris was asking. lol

Anyways, by the time I got the pictures of the bottom of his feet he had stepped back in the dirt so the pics arnt that great but after getting on to my Husband and Muffin for both goofing off I figured this would have to do. lol

The red/brown is the outer layer of his hoof flaking off. The farrier doesn't rasp the outside of his hoof, he just leaves that layer there to help hold in moisture due to my hard dry ground. If I brushed it harder it would just peel off.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves006.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves007.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves008.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves013.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves018.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves016.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves015.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves014.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves009.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves011.jpg

[lovesfortune]

Looking forward to what the experts say. :)

[WashingtonBay]

Looking forward to what the experts say. :)

Me too... I'm not one of those, but I do see bruising and suspect perhaps he paws and bangs at the fence or gate? - perhaps at feeding time, perhaps when he's bored? I don't think it's uncommon to see some bruising in white feet, and some flaring, particularly on drafts that are barefoot. There's a lot of horse on top of them. Don't know if the horn quality can be improved or if it's just a matter of managing the feet he's got. The farriers may have a sense of that.

[IrisGreen]

Yeah, Me too. I have been wondering about his frog and how my farrier doesnt cut out that cleft that goes to his heel? Does that need to be opened up or cleaned up?

[IrisGreen]

Just read your post WB. I don't think it's brusing except that one red spot on his left hoof. The rest you can peel off like it's just the outer layer that the farrier didn't rasp off. I peeled some off while brushing his hooves but I didn't brush it all off. It's like a film.

He's been playing with his ball so that could explain the bruse and the cut on his corinary band I guess.

I really don't like his left front and how it's flaring so bad....

[Miracle Whip]

I don't know if Patti Stiller is still on this forum but she told me the back of the frog DOES needs to be cleaned up. That type of frog looks like mine do after a couple months of snow and ice...the frog should not be that crummy looking in your dry climate. Unless, for some reason the farrier thought the frogs would dry out too much if he did trim them, which seems a bit weird to me given their current condition. His frogs should be touching the ground. I don't think they are so that is why the hoof is flaring so much?

Houston????

Yes, white hooves "bruise" and the bruising comes in all colors, which is ok, but I don't like the reddish hue either. I don't get that color with Whip and he is totally white except for his ears.
Does not seem like he has much of a hoof "wall" - my horse years ago had feet like that, spread out, and required shoes to go on gravel.

Just my thoughts.

[WashingtonBay]

Yes, white hooves "bruise"

So, probably, do dark hooves, you just can't see it like you can on white ones.

[Miracle Whip]

Its a bit shocking when you have never had a white hooved horse before. Remember, I am a diehard dark hoof fan, but Bob's horse is all white. Whip's hooves do have different colors, pink, or orange, and according to my farrier its perfectly normal. I don't even know for sure if it is a bruise or just the way his hooves are.

[WashingtonBay]

Just read your post WB. I don't think it's brusing except that one red spot on his left hoof. The rest you can peel off like it's just the outer layer that the farrier didn't rasp off. I peeled some off while brushing his hooves but I didn't brush it all off. It's like a film.

No - I'm not calling the brown flaky layer bruising. I know what that is. I was talking about the spot on the left hoof, and perhaps a little bit of the same thing happening in the inside quarter of the right one.

[IrisGreen]

His frogs do hit the ground that's why theres wet mud on them in that picture he stepped off the mat onto the dirt and picked up some mud.

I really don't like the cleft being grown over on his frogs because I think they should be opened so there easy to clean and don't harbor bacteria. But, I don't know if there is logic to letting them grow over or if my farrier just doesnt know to open them up?

Muffin got thrush the last time the farrier was out so he had to dig out deeper next to his frog then he normaly would to get the thrush exposed. I kept treating him and theres no sign of it anymore. But, that's why the sides are so deeply cut out around his frog when they normaly arnt that deep.

[gaited07]

I also see bruising, flaring,and cracking. The frog needs to be cleaned up more, he just needs a better trim job with more balance.
How long has it been since his last trim?

[gaited07]

Mircle Whip,
You wasn't talking about WB not having a horse with white hooves was you?
This picture is one of WB's and I see white hooves, don't you?

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=732

[WashingtonBay]

I love that picture.... sassy thing.

Yes, the pony is white all the way around, and Bay is two white, two dark. I've never seen a difference between them in hardness, and neither has any farrier I've asked.

I think you can see bruising in white hooves easier, so people think they bruise more.

[IrisGreen]

That is a great picture! I thought naughty pony!! lol :)

Muffin is 6 weeks and 4 days in to his last trim. He is on a schedual for trims 6-8 weeks depending on how they need it.

I think we figured out what the slit is from. He steps on his own front feet when he crosses over sometimes while being lazy. You can see he did it to his left front and theres dirt on it after I just washed it off. If you ask him to move over a little he will step on his own foot instead of crossing it over sometimes.

So, We have the slit thing figured out, now I guess I just need to talk to my farrier and have him clean up the frogs?

I will go out there today and get some more pictures and clean up the back feet and get some pics of those too. I will call the farrier and see when he can come out soon since it's not an emergency that he has to come today. I will let you all know and get some after pictures.

[westmanfarrier]

Your heels are pretty run forward for 6 weeks. The bars are folding outward and are quite long to go along with it. This is probably causing the bruising at the quarters, where the stress is being transferred to with the long heels. The bruising you are seeing is happening at the hairline, and has grown down. Look at the hump in the hairline that is in line with the bruising.

Can't give much more, as balance is hard to tell from these pictures, they are at an oblique angle.

[westmanfarrier]

Oh, the little crack looks like a small abscess has erupted at the hairline. Normal. Lots of these little guys don't hurt the horse at all.

At the cellular level, there is no difference between light and dark feet except pigment.

[IrisGreen]

Thank you Westman :) My farrier did say that Muffins heels grow really fast.. well, his whole hoof grows really fast.

Just as background incase you don't know. Muffin is half draft a little over 15 hands and 2 1/2 years old never been shod.

I am interested to hear what you think after the farrier trims him. I'm going to get more pictures today of his hooves so I will try to get better pictures of all 4 feet. I'm heading over to read your thread about taking hoof pictures :)

[Joey A]

I agree with Shane about the overgrown heel and bars. This guy is on the verge of getting ugly. When you see big flares on the side of the foot, but not in the dorsal wall you are pretty much guaranteed to find under run heels. The next step in the distortion process is the toe starts getting pulled forward and the sole stretches and thins out.

I marked your photo to show what I would assume is all excess heel. (assume because you never know until you remove the bar and clean out the dead sole.)

Bars laid over like this can cause all sorts of issues, most notably being corns and heel abcesses. (which both can cause heat in the foot)

I'd trim the heels back to the widest point of the frog, or at the most down to the sole. (whichever comes first) Ideally there is a little (1/8"-3/16") of heel sticking out beyond the sole in the heels.

The little exposed sole showing through the dirt in the toe is your guideline for managing the toe. IMO, Id file a rocker in this toe to just a touch behind the exposed portion. (the black arrow)

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=420&pictureid=4715

With a big boy like this one, I would not be surprised to see some damage in the heels once those bars are removed.

[IrisGreen]

Thank you so much Walkin Fool. I didn't' get a chance to get pics yesterday but I will definitely get some nice ones today. Muffin was running around playing and bucking yesterday. He isn't lame so I am thankful for that. I will get some better clean pics of his feet today.

Can you explain heel damage? Well, I guess it might be easier if I just get some better pictures first.

[HoustonFarrier]

Pretty much what the others said. there's no reason your horses feet can't look like these.....

http://inlinethumb36.webshots.com/36451/2114889920053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

Steve

[gaited07]

Now this is why I like following the hoof sections! You farrier guys/gals are sooooooooooooo informative!

[westmanfarrier]

Beautiful feet Steve. I have actually had someone ask me why their draft's feet look like those, and why the hooves don't 'feather out' (flare) like the others she had seen and could I get them to do that. :huh:

[IrisGreen]

Muffins hooves do look a lot better after a trim and seem to not look flared but at about 6 weeks is when they start to flare. His feet grow really fast, even the farrier comments on that and his heels. Last time the farrier said he had to take a lot off the heel because his grow out much faster. Is there a reason his heels grow out faster then the toe?

I have gone through 3 to 4 different farriers before I found my current one. The others were either scared of drafts, didn't know how to trim them, trimmed him like a light horse and made him badly pigeon toed or just plane were not good and dug out his hooves too much and or slipped and cut a big chunk of bleeding frog out.

So, after all that my current farrier had to trim him so he wasn't standing pigeon toed (he's not pigeon toed, the guy trimmed him that way), then let his frog and sole grow out from them taking way too much like they where trimming a light horse for shoes.

It's been about a year with my current farrier and this last trim I think the trim wasn't that good and made his hooves flare early. But, other then that I think he has been doing a good job.. I just don't have the knowledge to know if he really is other then Muffin not being lame, running around and not being pigeon toed.

This is why I want to get good pics before he comes out so you can see how he trims and if it's a good trim or not.

Thank you to everyone that has responded the this thread. You all are great and I am so thankful that we have such a wide range of knowledgeable people on this forum to learn from :)

It's my Birthday today so I can "do what I want" :) and get the Hubby out there to help me ;). So, we can get some good pics before we go to dinner tonight. I just need help moving the stall mats to a flater spot, there heavy and awkward.

[HoustonFarrier]

Each horse is an individual...some feet flare more than others...due to conformation, weight, age, genetics, use, etc. here is an aged belgian...he was shod for most of his life, ntil about 5 years ago. He's got really nice feet, but they have more "flare" than hawks feet do.....
http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/42809/2776931990053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

Now, here's crappy farrier work.......

Before...

http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/40901/2016112510053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

After......
http://inlinethumb08.webshots.com/35783/2076882290053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

Before.......
http://inlinethumb39.webshots.com/42278/2756801400053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

After.......(more works needs to be done, just not all at once...)
http://inlinethumb50.webshots.com/41393/2671740170053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

Steve

[IrisGreen]

Each horse is an individual...some feet flare more than others...due to conformation, weight, age, genetics, use, etc. here is an aged belgian...he was shod for most of his life, ntil about 5 years ago. He's got really nice feet, but they have more "flare" than hawks feet do.....
http://inlinethumb58.webshots.com/42809/2776931990053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

Now, here's crappy farrier work.......

Before...

http://inlinethumb06.webshots.com/40901/2016112510053248425S425x425Q85.jpg


Muffins feet look like the belgians feet after a trim in your first pic. That's pretty close to the angle of flare..I think..

In the second pic..um.. isn't the hoof suposted to go on top of the shoe? Did they use too small of a shoe for the hoof or did the hoof flare past the shoe or what? I'm not a farrier and that still looks really bad to me...Plus, I don't deal with shoes but that looks aweful for the horse to walk on. Like walking on a big rock under it's sole?

[TLC97]

Steve- I LOVE those pictures you showed. The last one is classic of the "dinner plate" look that some morans think look better on drafts. When my dad judged he would bury those horses and explain the "no hoof, no horse" concept.
Iris- I think if you horse is flaring that bad at 6 weeks and you say Muffin's feet grow fast than maybe you need to be on a shorter than 6-8 week rotation. I would also heavily discuss the flaring and balancing with your farrier. If you have one you like I would hope they are open to suggestions.

[HoustonFarrier]

Did they use too small of a shoe for the hoof or did the hoof flare past the shoe or what?

Poorly prepared the hoof, shoe was too small, owner did not get it reset on a timely manner.....however......the hoof below was 8 weeks old in for a reset...... and I was cussing the farrier for the tight shoes :p

http://inlinethumb12.webshots.com/13067/2011183690053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

this one shows a nice BIG frog on a draft who lives in shoes(which some will tell you cannot be done...)
http://inlinethumb04.webshots.com/40579/2225593250053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

Steve

[IrisGreen]

Ok, Went out and took more pics. I found thrush along the edge of one hoof! Now that I cleaned them out really good and hosed them out... They look really bad to me!!

Muffin was soo good and just stood there eating his cubes while I did his feet. After I took the pictures I put thrush medication gel all over the underside of all his feet!!!

The clay dirt out here is really hard to get out of his hooves and even with the power sprayer on the end of the hose it didn't get it all off, plus me brushing and scratching at it.

Anyways, I am uploading the pics. I thought I did a better job of cleaning them but I guess there was still some stuck on there even after he was standing in a pool a water on the mat!!

I will post as soon as the pics are done...Theres like 20 of them!!

[WashingtonBay]

Standing by for pictures....

[IrisGreen]

It will take another 5-10 mins or so... Now I'm worried!!! :rant: I can't wait to see how they compare to when his is trimmed!!! ...ohh waiting waiting waiting for the pics to load....:(

[rums_mom]

Poor Muffin!

[IrisGreen]

OK, I will start with the fronts and put each hoof in it's own post so please hold off on posting tell I am done.

Front Right:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves025.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves026.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves027.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves028.jpg

[IrisGreen]

Front Left:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves032.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves033.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves036.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves035.jpg

[IrisGreen]

Back:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves020.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves021.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves023.jpg

Back Left:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves037.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves038.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves039.jpg

[IrisGreen]

Back Right:

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves040.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves041.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves042.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves043.jpg

[IrisGreen]

If you want an area cleaned out better just let me know what hoof. I tryed, I really did with the power sprayer and picking. It's just hard to get the clay off the sole, it's almost water risistant and wont scrap off. I need two hands to really scrub and I'm not used to holding his hoof between my legs so I won't try it on a wet mat.

I'm hoping they just look this bad because there grown out...plus the farrier had to take more on the sides of the frog last time due to thrush. I thought I got it all but there were a few spots of it still on the sides betwen the hoof wall and sole. Not good.

My Farrier is going to be out this week sometime. So, let me know if I need to tell him anything. I'm going to tell him to clean up the cleft in the frog but other then that I will just take some pics of the trim.

[WashingtonBay]

I still can't believe you are dealing with thrush, in the desert.
If so, it's certainly not caused by too much wet, that's for sure.

The pictures, between the being wet now (which I understand because I do the same thing to really get a good luck at mine) and the lumpy, overgrown frogs, make them not look like any foot I've ever seen. It's hard to see what's really going on. I look forward to fresh pictures of the newly trimmed foot.

[westmanfarrier]

Don't 'TELL' your farrier anything you hear here. We sure cannot do as thorough an assessment by pictures than your farrier can in person. You are paying him for his skill and knowledge. If you no longer trust his opinion, maybe it is time to change.

You can, however, voice your concerns. My guess is when your horse is moving you can see the heel hit very clearly in almost a two part movement with heel hitting, then toe slapping down. Horses should land heel first, but it should be barely discernible. Point this out.

[HoustonFarrier]

It *appears* to me that the farrier is not taking any of the exfoliated sole off, as well as he's not removing the excess bars. Current thinking is the bars should be a passive support item, NOT a primary support. The heels are WAAAAAAAAY to long, run-forward. Take a look at the heels here....keeping im mind a shoe went on, but the bars are trimmed, the heels are down where they need to be, the exfoliated sole is gone. Frog is big, wide (not cleaned up completely in the picture though:p)

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/10669/2206040810053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

The frogs on your horse are severly atrophied from the heels being so high for so long. Unless the farrier gets it right, your on course for a 'navicular' horse in a few years. Now, if I'm wrong, and this horse is growing this much, then you need to get him down to 2 weeks trims:cool:

The impacted bars are the source of the bruising and flaring. Hoof wall has nowhere to go but OUT when the bars are primary loading.......

Steve

[westmanfarrier]

I still can't believe you are dealing with thrush, in the desert.
If so, it's certainly not caused by too much wet, that's for sure.

The pictures, between the being wet now (which I understand because I do the same thing to really get a good luck at mine) and the overgrown frogs, make them not look like any foot I've ever seen. It's hard to see what's really going on. I look forward to fresh pictures of the newly trimmed foot.

Thrush is not caused by wet. It is caused by fungus, which is present everywhere. Thrush is anaerobic, does not live with oxygen. Wet conditions lend more to these conditions. As she said many times, it is hard to pick out that hard clay, anaerobic conditions. I've seen thrush in just about every climate I have worked in. The particular strains of fungi differ, but the result is similar.

[westmanfarrier]

It *appears* to me that the farrier is not taking any of the exfoliated sole off, as well as he's not removing the excess bars. Current thinking is the bars should be a passive support item, NOT a primary support. The heels are WAAAAAAAAY to long, run-forward. Take a look at the heels here....keeping im mind a shoe went on, but the bars are trimmed, the heels are down where they need to be, the exfoliated sole is gone. Frog is big, wide (not cleaned up completely in the picture though:p)

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/10669/2206040810053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

The frogs on your horse are severly atrophied from the heels being so high for so long. Unless the farrier gets it right, your on course for a 'navicular' horse in a few years. Now, if I'm wrong, and this horse is growing this much, then you need to get him down to 2 weeks trims:cool:

The impacted bars are the source of the bruising and flaring. Hoof wall has nowhere to go but OUT when the bars are primary loading.......

Steve

Definitely agree with Steve. Heels too long, which is why they will hit the ground way ahead of when the horse wants them too.

Get the heels back to where they belong, and you will reactivate the frog and it will come around in a hurry.

[WashingtonBay]

I am understanding that, as I go... westman! I just associate fungus with wet, being up here, because that's when I get it. (I've never had it on a horse ;))

So even though it's 'dry', the clay is holding out the oxygen and providing the anaerobic environment, much as they say living in a wet environment does.

[westmanfarrier]

I am understanding that, as I go... westman! I just associate fungus with wet, being up here, because that's when I get it. (I've never had it on a horse ;))

So even though it's 'dry', the clay is holding out the oxygen and providing the anaerobic environment, much as they say living in a wet environment does.

I know WB. Pretty frustrating isn't it. Our northwest fungal problems are pretty bad, mushy feet sure don't help.

One thing I have found is that the presence of feces and urine contribute to the problem much more than wet. Some of the worst fungus I have seen was in horses boarded in beautiful facilities, where they stand in their own output all day.

[westmanfarrier]

http://inlinethumb46.webshots.com/10669/2206040810053248425S425x425Q85.jpg

Check out the white line around the toe of this hoof that Steve posted earlier. The little black lines look fungal. Steve could confirm if I am correct.

Even in sunny Houston.

[Joey A]

I'm with Steve. I think you'd pee your pants if you watched me trim your horse. That ridge around the frog would probably al come out in one piece with the bars.

About the heels growing faster than the toe, there's a few possible reasons.

-He wears the toe faster than the heels making it look that way. (most likely)

-Neurological reaction to pain in the flexor tendons / muslces, or heels. (second place)

-He's club footed. The "ridge" around the frog is a common indicator of being club footed, however I don't think that's very likely he's got club feet.

The thrush is probably a secondary problem to the heels being too long, I think that if you trim the heels down and use some Jim Rickens (a sole hardener) on the frog a time or two and you won't have any more problems with thrush. Excess length on the heels will reduce circulation and all your hoof growth is effected, especially in the frog. If the frog grows fast, thrush can't keep up and the frog sloughs off before thrush can get a foot hold. (pun intended) (over simplified answer)

[IrisGreen]

Thankx everyone for your input!! I sure appreciate it!!

As for the Thrush, Muffin got it from the back of his pen being soaked with pee that wont dry and the clay mixture. I wasn't picking out his feet as often as I should have been and the pee with the clay made a perfect environment for thrush even though it was 100 degrees out side and the lot was dry as a bone besides the one area in the back. I had a dozer come and clear out that area but it still is not drying... I'm going to have to section it off so he can't go pee there anymore to give it a chance to dry out. That's his favorite spot to go and with this clay it doesn't have time to dry out before he soaks it again and goes walking through it.

As for my Farrier. I'm not going to tell him how to do his job, most don't like it when a newbie thinks she knows more then they do. :p I just want the cleft of the frog cleaned up and let him trim the way he always does. I will get pictures so you can tell me what you think when he is done. If I need to have a talk with him after that depending on what you say about his trim job, then I will or if we need to schedule more frequent trims, etc.

I do remember my farrier being shocked that Muffins heels grow so fast and he did comment on having to take off way more then he would normally have to in the same amount of time on another horse.

Could this be because Muffin is a growing boy? He's only 2 1/2 and keeps getting bigger and his hooves I'm sure are growing too or do some horses just grow out there heels much faster?

I will get pictures of the trim and then again 2 weeks after the trim so we can see if he does grow a heel fast. Hopefully we can tell from the pictures.

Thankx again everyone for all your help. I'm really interested to hear what you think after he gets his trim now that you have seen the before pics. I like my farrier and I do trust him but sometimes we over look things that others see so it's nice getting another opinion on his trim. My farrier has been doing hooves for years and he still goes to clinics to learn new things so he is open minded. If I had a legitimate concern then he would look in to it to make sure he was doing the right thing. So, I don't think I will have a problem talking to him if there is a concern about the way he trims Muffins hooves as long as it's legitimate and not just me thinking I know what I'm doing when I don't. lol That's where you all come in ;)

[IrisGreen]

I just read your post #55 Walkin. Thanks for that info. I probably would pee my pants!! lol

I think he wears his toe more then his heels. I'm guess. He recently got more active now that I put the ball in his pen to play with. He played with that for a few days tell him popped it!! Now he plays with his cone again and isn't lame or sore. He was bucking like a bronco yesterday having a blast showing off for the neighbors when they where unloading there truck. lol

Here is a video of him playing with his ball. It's the most recent video I have of him moving. This was less then a week ago:

YouTube - Second time with Horse Soccer Ball

[Miracle Whip]

One thing I wanted to say is you DO have the right to tell your farrier how you want your horse trimmed. I would not go so far as to say - "so and so on the website said this" but you could say, "I've done some research and this is the way I want him trimmed." Don't be afraid to make some decisions on your own. It does not sound to me as if this farrier is doing your horse any favors and it will only get worse. Why pay for a second trim in 2 weeks if you could fix it today??

[WashingtonBay]

I was just going to respond that I can see that wet back corner of his, when you mentioned it on the video. :)

[WashingtonBay]

You know... This is really funny. Just when I was typing that it looks like he'd mount the thing if it would just hold still, you said it on the video.

I think it here, it comes out there. ;)

[Joey A]

All horses wear more in the toe than the heels. If one is sore in the heels then they won't put as much weight on them and they will wear even less. (again and furthermore supporting my thoughts on brusies / corns in the heels)

[IrisGreen]

I was just going to respond that I can see that wet back corner of his, when you mentioned it on the video. :)


You know... This is really funny. Just when I was typing that it looks like he'd mount the thing if it would just hold still, you said it on the video.

I think it here, it comes out there. ;)


heehee :) Hey, I try to say it as I'm thinking it. lol I don't know how to put all the fancy music and stuff to videos, plus that takes time and I just don't care that much to put music to it. So, I have a narrate. lol Give the play by play action. lol

In that video Muffin was really on his hind end most of the time because he had ran into the ball on the fence a few times so he knew he had better be ready to stop fast if he ran in to something. lol

[lovesfortune]

Looking forward to pictures after his trim. I'm with WB... I've never seen hooves like his before. But I've never seen draft horses (let alone their feet) before either. :)

[cloedoll]

Whoa, I just read this entire thread, holy information! Hehe. I am no help, but I'm going to continue coming back to this thread to see updates. Muffin is so cute with that ball, makes me want to buy one for my horses, lol!

[IrisGreen]

My Farrier came out today. I told him about the "forum" and how I was going to take pictures. He was fine with it and said go ahead. lol He didn't care that I was posting pictures. He even helped hold Muffin for me :)

Ok, So here is the Right Front Hoof

Before:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves025.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves026.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves028.jpg



After: Thrush was in that right side of the frog last time the Farrier came out that's why it's so cut away.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinTrim001.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinTrim003.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinTrim004.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinTrim005.jpg

Here is Back Right hoof

Before:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves023.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinHooves020.jpg

After:
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinTrim006.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/MuffinTrim007.jpg

We got to talking and I didn't get anymore pics while we were out there. I will have to get out there and get some more pics if you need. Just let me know what hoof and angle you want the picture.

Thankx

[HoustonFarrier]

Much better....I'd have rounded the edges more.

I guess I'd like to know WHY it was so long (bars, heels run forward, etc). Does the horse GROW that much in 6-7-8 weeks????(I kinda doubt it...but I have been wrong in the past) or did I miss something explaining the excessive growth?

Steve

[IrisGreen]

WoW Steve!! You posted fast. :) I was thinking it would be a while before someone noticed I updated the thread. lol

Muffin does grow that fast:p I'm not joking. I took those "before" pictures at 6 1/2 weeks in to his last trim, I had it marked on my calendar when his last trim was. My Farrier did tell me that Muffin grows really fast and he has to take off a lot.

[HoustonFarrier]

Muffin does grow that fast:p I'm not joking. I took those "before" pictures at 6 1/2 weeks in to his last trim.

Amazing....I've never seen one grow that much that fast ! You're lucky :) You might want to shorten the schecule a week or so then.

Steve

[IrisGreen]

Thank You Steve :) Yeah, My Farrier said that after you guys see that he does grow that fast you would want his schedule shortened. We talked about it and figured 6 weeks no later then 7 should be better for Muffin. Before we could hold off tell 8 weeks but he grows so fast now that we have gradually had to shorten it down to find the right schedule for him. We might have to shorten it to 5-6 weeks :eek:

It might have to do with him growing in general. He's 2 1/2 and he is going through some crazy growing spurts. His butt is up in the air again so he is going to get even taller. I need to go measure him...

[westmanfarrier]

I couldn't believe that was only 6 1/2 weeks growth myself. The trim looks good, sounds like you have good tact in talking with your farrier. I do have horses on my schedule that go 4-5 weeks, so it is not unheard of.

Sounds like you have a good plan.

Love the video by the way, what a character.

[IrisGreen]

Thank You, Shane :)

Yeah, My Farrier is a down to Earth kind of guy. If I said something that makes since he would conceder it or teach me why he feels it's not necessary. I guess he used to trim the Budweiser baby's years back, he just told me this when I told him that Steve has Clydesdale's and knows a lot about draft trims. I guess he trained with a guy named Pete Ramsay or something like that. He said if I ever have any questions about the way he trims my horse or if I feel he is doing something wrong we can call him up. lol He also said that not every horse can be trimmed "by the book" and thats when people get into trouble. Every horse is different, and there conditions and way of living has to be considered along with there conformation and hoof growth.

I always liked my Farrier from the day I met him. Even Muffin liked him and was relaxed around him. I could tell a big difference in the way that Muffin and him just seemed to understand each other and Muffin trusted him. Even after the Farrier before him slipped and cut a big chunk of bleeding frog out. Muffin still took to him the first time and let him work on that hoof.

He also is a trainer and I am planing on sending Muffin to him in the spring for under saddle training. He told me he already has a slot reserved for Muffin and I could tell he is really looking forward to working with him. Muffin is emotional and needs reassurance he is doing good, plus if he does get in trouble he pouts and it doesn't take much to let him know his boundary's. My Farrier knows Muffins personality and works with him well. I'm also going to take riding lessons soon to get me fine tuned on one of his trained reining horses.

Thankx for you comment about the Video :) I crack up when I watch it! Muffin looks like a little pony!!! I don't know why video and pictures of him make him look like a little pony?

Here is him just a few days ago testing to see if he would fit in the trailer. He did and we are going to slant load him just to take him to the vets. There is another tread debating if he should be taken in this trailer slant loaded or not. Anyways, here is the pic.

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/1stTrailer001.jpg
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b320/DesignersPet/1stTrailer005.jpg

Now, you can tell he's not a pony :)Plus, he's got a very willing to try personality :)