USDA found to be poisoning birds

[magayle]

http://www.naturalnews.com/031076_USDA_bird_deaths.html

and video news
http://naturalnews.tv/v.asp?v=191572F79E8B2C64705B4AB182AF54F9

[mare]

The bird control by the USDA is seperate from the "mysterious" die-offs of recent weeks that happened around the globe.

There are reasons to eliminate the access of birds to feed that include protecting the safety of foods. Just covering the feed of the Nebraska farmer would bring other problems. The bacteria in bird feces would not be good if ingested by cattle.

The article and sources seemed to hint at "government conspiracy" to me.

I don't have a problem with reducing bird flocks when they threaten the health of other birds, people, animals, and plants.

[FlapJack]

There are reasons to eliminate the access of birds to feed that include protecting the safety of foods. Just covering the feed of the Nebraska farmer would bring other problems.
What problems would come from covering the feed (and why are they worse than mass killings of wildlife)?

[mare]

What problems would come from covering the feed (and why are they worse than mass killings of wildlife)?

There are different strains of bacteria. Different strains of mold. The mold that might grow in uncovered feed would be different than the mold that would grow in covered feed because of different moisture content, different temperature, and different drying times. Some is harmless. Some is not.

The USDA is charged with attempting to keep food safe for humans and pets. They would have to make this call.

You can research the illnesses that harm people and other mammals when bird populations become too dense. You can find data on the harm to various species of birds when they become to dense for their habitat.

[FlapJack]

I don't really understand how covering the feed in some manner suddenly creates harmful mold that wouldn't be present if it were uncovered? It's just protecting the feed, it seems like a good idea regardless of whether or not these birds are being a problem.

How can putting DRC 1339 into the environment be the the best option? They could have landed/died in waterways or been eaten by other animals.
I also don't see it as a long-term solution, become won't they be back at some point? Do we just keep killing? I believe hawks and owls are natural predators to starlings, maybe they could be encouraged by the farmers. I recognize it would not solve the problem but it could be a step in the right direction. Immediately resorting to killing the animals is a lazy and inhumane way to go about it. Death from poisoning is not a quick death (as demonstrated by the birds flying so far before dying).
If the absolute only option available is to regularly hold mass killings of wildlife then I think we're doing something wrong!
I'm also curious as to whether or not the USDA is currently or plans to regularly respond to poison requests this way.
I guess when it involves cattle/feedlots, normal standards of humanity are tossed out the window.

Just my :2cents: I guess.

[JackieB]

I also would suggest that we need to look a lot harder at options other than the mass killing of these birds.

But even if a person could care less about the birds, the The federal government's track record of assuring us that chemicals it releases into the environment are perfectly safe is not very good.

[DashMyBoy!]

I know of a dairy farmer that lost close to half his cows one spring because of toxins that seeped into his feed from bird crap after a rainy spring. It was an ugly,ugly way for his cows to die. :(

With feed .... some feed needs to be covered because it ferments and is treated to slow the natural decaying process. ( In the winter time, go lay on top of corn silage. It's hot.) When it is opened to oxygen, you'll find that you'll still loose 6" or so of top/sides layer to rot. Other feeds need to be exposed to air to dry or they mold and rot. Hay is a great example. Was it baled -need to be dry form? Or chopped into haylage and stored in a silo -wet form. Different forms for different usages. Different storage, different problems. You can feed haylage to a cow but not to a horse. hay can keep a horse alive but is not much more than bulk or filler to a dairy cow.

The problem with birds and farms is that the stick piled feed makes it way to easy for the birds to eat. There is little or no natural selection of the fittest in finding or fighting for food. Most species eat many times their weight a day in feed. This costly problem is bad enough ( don't think of five or fifty birds or even five hundred ...think thousands) but the damage from their droppings! It's a health hazard to humans,stock, even your pets! I get the heebie jeebies thinking about the cooties in bird crap.

Anyway, the flocks become massive and need to be culled. Farmers DO use owls, hawks and whatnot, but there is too much land to cover and thousands of hungry birds simply veer around birds of prey and keep munching.

Many of these species -the English sparrow for instance - are not even indigenous to our land! They came over with the English.

Some places hire local kids to shoot the birds. I find this a very dangerous thing. Others have cages that lure the birds into a feast .... but like a crab pot they can't fly out. A tarp is thrown over the huge cage and a truck's exhaust pipe is backed up to it. The birds are gassed. Then there is poison bait. I am anti poison .....but it seems the quickest solution for mass culling in this case. If anyone has a better, gentler solution I have no doubt the farmers of America would listen.
If there is a better way, I am sure every farmer would LOVE to hear it. No farmer wants to trade in the chirrup of bird song for silence .... but how do you find balance? All the farmers I know have a planted conservation area for wildlife. They understand the need for balance in nature.

[mare]

If anyone has a better, gentler solution I have no doubt the farmers of America would listen.

If there is a better way, I am sure every farmer would LOVE to hear it. No farmer wants to trade in the chirrup of bird song for silence .... but how do you find balance? All the farmers I know have a planted conservation area for wildlife. They understand the need for balance in nature.

Thanks, DMB. And, I couldn't agree more.

[offgridgirl]

The federal government's track record of assuring us that chemicals it releases into the environment are perfectly safe is not very good.

Hell ya!! Boy and how do they mess things up!:innocent:
I am very thank-full for the many predatory birds that we have here. They do limit the small birds as well as ducks and chickens!:eek:

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I would be careful before taking anything very seriously from that website. A quick scan through, and it's pretty obvious that there is a whole lot of nonsense published there.

[magayle]

how 'bout feeding cows what they were meant to eat? better yet, stop eating cows...i'm sick of all the problems caused by factory farming and industrialized agriculture

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

how 'bout feeding cows what they were meant to eat? better yet, stop eating cows...i'm sick of all the problems caused by factory farming and industrialized agriculture

yah. that whole "modern science" thing is such a waste. We should go back to a more medieval level of understanding when bloodletting was the thing to do.

Stop eating cows? Why? They're made of perfectly good food.

If God wanted us not to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. :-)

[mare]

how 'bout feeding cows what they were meant to eat? better yet, stop eating cows...i'm sick of all the problems caused by factory farming and industrialized agriculture

We could do things the way they are done on the African savannah or in Mongolia.

Then we could get rid of pesky things like reduced infant mortality and at least help get the average life span back down to a reasonable range.

We do a lot of things right in the U.S. There is room for improvement.

It is too convenient to say industrialized agriculture is evil and all bad and the cause of unnecessary deaths. Not every package of beef in the store came from a cow that was fed chicken dropping or bone meal. In real life that is the rare exception.

[magayle]

well, here's another good idea for poisoning everything...posted today....soon the poisoning of our horses hay will have even more deadly consequences:(

http://www.naturalnews.com/031139_GE_alfalfa_deregulation.html

[WashingtonBay]

I think making up scary words like "genetic pollution" is unscientific.

Sorry, I am just not on the bandwagon, magayle. There's nothing poison or deadly about using science and technology to grow better crops. One person's genetic pollution is another person's selective breeding.

[magayle]

gotta love those crows

YouTube - Crow and Kitten are Friends

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

gotta love those crows



That is just one of the cutest things I've ever seen.

[pocomoonskyeyes]

I believe hawks and owls are natural predators to starlings, maybe they could be encouraged by the farmers.
Well would you believe that ALL Starlings come from just 300 that were released into NYC (Central Park) over a hundred years ago(1800's I believe IIRC), when predatory bird (AKA Raptors) populations were larger than today? I have seen more than 300 Starlings in my pasture alone at one time. Plus there were others in nearby pastures and in trees roosting. Altogether there must have been close to a thousand or more. Starlings are also more competitive than some of our Native bird species(for food and nesting) and are causing THEIR populations to diminish. Just another introduced species that shouldn't be here in the first place IMO.

[mare]

Just another introduced species that shouldn't be here in the first place IMO.

Just like kudzu, carp, Russion Olive trees, etc.

[Remali]

yah. that whole "modern science" thing is such a waste. We should go back to a more medieval level of understanding when bloodletting was the thing to do.

Stop eating cows? Why? They're made of perfectly good food.

If God wanted us not to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. :-)

Do you even KNOW what kind of slop that some farm animals, like cows, are fed?

[Tiz]

Stop eating cows? Why? They're made of perfectly good food.

If God wanted us not to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. :-)

Haha! Good one.:)

[FlapJack]

If God wanted us not to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. :-)

I don't think God has much of a place in factory farming, if you want to get biblical about it. Seeing as before sin we didn't eat meat (and people are made of 'meat' too), you'd have to figure God originally intended for people to be vegetarian.
However if you're just quoting Homer Simpson and aren't serious about the religious aspect of it then feel free to disregard :).

[mare]

I Seeing as before sin we didn't eat meat (and people are made of 'meat' too), you'd have to figure God originally intended for people to be vegetarian.

Not at all sure where you got that idea. Please enlighten.

Remali - Do you "even have any idea" how diet is set, delivered and tracked at feed yards?

[mare]

Here's an article written by Ryan Andrews after his visit to a large Colorado feedlot. If you're into nutrition, you might be familar with him.

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/cattle-feedlot-visit

[FlapJack]

Not at all sure where you got that idea. Please enlighten.
I'm not going to pretend to know God's will, but I do think it's written fairly clearly in Genesis, "Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Both animals and people were given plant foods for a diet. Before sin, no animal was killed for any human purpose. Seeing as God said that what He created before sin "was good", I think that would mean He wanted it that way. In Isaiah 11:6–9 there's a prophecy of a more peaceful world where cattle will eat with bears and infants will wander around with snakes and there will be no harm. The ideal world involves no killing (as it was in Eden before sin).

So that's where I get that idea.

[mare]

Okee dokee. I know where the first reference if from. Genesis 1:29 and 30. But I don't see that anything changed with the wording God used (Genesis 3: 18-19). Not a biggie. Just had never heard that as a reason for vegetarianism.

[magayle]

Here's an article written by Ryan Andrews after his visit to a large Colorado feedlot. If you're into nutrition, you might be familar with him.

http://www.precisionnutrition.com/cattle-feedlot-visit

good article but i still believe a plant based diet for humans is the way to go.....for health and environmental reasons....if all the land used for animal consumption was used for healthy grain based human diets, i doubt there would be world hunger....also less disease and illness but since the ultimate problem is over population..... whatever

[magayle]

I'm not going to pretend to know God's will, but I do think it's written fairly clearly in Genesis, "Then God said, “I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food." Both animals and people were given plant foods for a diet. Before sin, no animal was killed for any human purpose. Seeing as God said that what He created before sin "was good", I think that would mean He wanted it that way. In Isaiah 11:6–9 there's a prophecy of a more peaceful world where cattle will eat with bears and infants will wander around with snakes and there will be no harm. The ideal world involves no killing (as it was in Eden before sin).

So that's where I get that idea.

good post.....i strongly believe that the hunter/gather way of life was the 'original plan' too....until we address the over population problem everything just gets worse....God/Creator didn't create the medical system we now have either....swaping body parts, drugs, implants.....what's so great about a longer life expectancy?

[WashingtonBay]

...what's so great about a longer life expectancy?

Well, for starters, I like it here. :coffee:

[natisha]

No matter how long we live we'll be dead a lot longer, so I say stick with what we know for as long as we can.

[magayle]

live in the moment and be grateful for it all....next time around the life lessons will be easier....hope we're a couple of horses livin' with HE, natisha:cowboy:

[Gem's Mom]

Remali- the fact that those animals (cows, pigs) can eat that slop that we can't and transform it into meat that we can eat is what makes them so cool! I'd have to look around again to find where I got the part in quotes, but this is what I've been saying for years: this is why I love cows: "conversion of indigestible plant material and human food by-products into high-quality milk and meat protein provides
an invaluable source of human nutrients"

And if you took all the land that is in animal production now and put it into plant production you would have less food. A pound of meat has more nutrients and can more completely feed more people than a pound of grain. So it makes sense to feed the grain/plants to the animals and then we consume the more nutrient rich meat. Or at least it makes sense to me.

[WashingtonBay]

Remali- the fact that those animals (cows, pigs) can eat that slop that we can't and transform it into meat that we can eat is what makes them so cool!

Reminds me of a comedian, I think... talking about health food and vegetables... said something like "That's not food... that's what you feed to food to make food" :D

[Remali]

Remali- the fact that those animals (cows, pigs) can eat that slop that we can't and transform it into meat that we can eat is what makes them so cool! I'd have to look around again to find where I got the part in quotes, but this is what I've been saying for years: this is why I love cows: "conversion of indigestible plant material and human food by-products into high-quality milk and meat protein provides
an invaluable source of human nutrients"

And if you took all the land that is in animal production now and put it into plant production you would have less food. A pound of meat has more nutrients and can more completely feed more people than a pound of grain. So it makes sense to feed the grain/plants to the animals and then we consume the more nutrient rich meat. Or at least it makes sense to me.

Well I'm not sure where you heard that....but it is a well-known fact that that slop is not good for anyone.... cows or humans who eat cows. I think you should do a little more research. Maybe being here in dairy cow country we hear more about it more often, I have friends (and had family) who had cows.... beef and dairy. Feeding cows slop that they were not meant to eat isn't a good thing.

[WashingtonBay]

I think you should do a little more research. Remali... I don't mean to answer for her... but I think Gem's mom worked at a dairy farm.

Just sayin' is all.... :)

[Remali]

That's OK, my dad grew up on one and that farm was in the family until just a few years ago. We all have friends and family that are in, or were in farming/beef cows/dairy cows. You can all eat your tainted meat if you want to. lol. ;)

[WashingtonBay]

Was just sayin'... don't assume her opinion is 'unresearched', like she's never been in a dairy ;) Maybe you would've wanted to correct your post.

Or direct it at me. I have no idea what's in the daily diet of your average dairy cow. But then, I don't know what goes into the average vegetarian turkey either :)

[Remali]

I guess we all have differing opinions of what cows should eat. :)

[WashingtonBay]

I have no opinion yet, on what a dairy cow does, or should eat. No one here has actually said ;)

[HeavensEast]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_typical_beef_cattle_diet
From wikipedia:
Nutrition plays an important role in keeping cattle healthy (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Healthy) and strong.[20] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-19) Implementing an adequate nutrition program can also improve milk production and reproductive performance. Nutrient (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Nutrient) requirements may not be the same depending on the animal's age and stage of production.
Forages, which refer especially to hay (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Hay) or straw (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Straw), are the most common type of feed used. Cereal grains (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Cereal_grain), as the main contributors of starch to diets, are important in meeting the energy (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Energy) needs of dairy cattle. Barley is one example of grain that is extensively used around the world. Barley is grown in temperate to sub-artic climates (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Climates), and it is transported to those areas lacking the necessary amounts of grain. Although variations may occur, in general, barley is an excellent source of balanced amounts of protein (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Protein), energy (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Energy), and fiber (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Fiber).[21] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-20)
Ensuring adequate body fat (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Body_fat) reserves is essential for cattle to produce milk and also to keep reproductive efficiency. However, if cattle get excessively fat or too thin, they run the risk of developing metabolic problems.[22] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-21) Scientists (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Scientists) have found that a variety of fat supplements can benefit conception rates of lactating dairy cows. Some of these different fats include oleic acids (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Oleic_acids), found in canola oil (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Canola_oil), animal tallow, and yellow grease; palmitic acid found in granular fats and dry fats; and linolenic acids which are found in cottonseed (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Cottonseed), safflower (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Safflower), sunflower (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Sunflower), and soybean (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Soybean).[23] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-22) It is also important to note that proper levels of fat also improve cattle longevity.
Using by-products (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/By-products) is one way of reducing the normally high feed costs. However, lack of knowledge of their nutritional and economic value limits their use. Although the reduction of costs may be significant, they have to be used carefully because animal may have negative reactions to radical changes in feeds, for Eg. fog fever (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Fog_fever). Such a change must then be made slowly and with the proper follow up.[24] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-23)

I am having trouble finding anything that's not from Wikipedia.. or things from universities about what they should eat.

[natisha]

If eating cows products is bad due to what the cows eat, why don't the cows die from what they eat?

[natisha]

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_a_typical_beef_cattle_diet
From wikipedia:
Nutrition plays an important role in keeping cattle healthy (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Healthy) and strong.[20] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-19) Implementing an adequate nutrition program can also improve milk production and reproductive performance. Nutrient (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Nutrient) requirements may not be the same depending on the animal's age and stage of production.
Forages, which refer especially to hay (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Hay) or straw (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Straw), are the most common type of feed used. Cereal grains (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Cereal_grain), as the main contributors of starch to diets, are important in meeting the energy (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Energy) needs of dairy cattle. Barley is one example of grain that is extensively used around the world. Barley is grown in temperate to sub-artic climates (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Climates), and it is transported to those areas lacking the necessary amounts of grain. Although variations may occur, in general, barley is an excellent source of balanced amounts of protein (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Protein), energy (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Energy), and fiber (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Fiber).[21] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-20)
Ensuring adequate body fat (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Body_fat) reserves is essential for cattle to produce milk and also to keep reproductive efficiency. However, if cattle get excessively fat or too thin, they run the risk of developing metabolic problems.[22] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-21) Scientists (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Scientists) have found that a variety of fat supplements can benefit conception rates of lactating dairy cows. Some of these different fats include oleic acids (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Oleic_acids), found in canola oil (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Canola_oil), animal tallow, and yellow grease; palmitic acid found in granular fats and dry fats; and linolenic acids which are found in cottonseed (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Cottonseed), safflower (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Safflower), sunflower (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Sunflower), and soybean (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Soybean).[23] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-22) It is also important to note that proper levels of fat also improve cattle longevity.
Using by-products (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/By-products) is one way of reducing the normally high feed costs. However, lack of knowledge of their nutritional and economic value limits their use. Although the reduction of costs may be significant, they have to be used carefully because animal may have negative reactions to radical changes in feeds, for Eg. fog fever (http://www.baywindfarm.com/wiki/Fog_fever). Such a change must then be made slowly and with the proper follow up.[24] (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/#cite_note-23)

I am having trouble finding anything that's not from Wikipedia.. or things from universities about what they should eat.Maybe they should eat vegetarian people?

I'm just kidding!!!!!

[Gem's Mom]

lol natisha, you're bad

The dairy cows were fed a combo of hay, corn silage (corn chopped ears stalk and all, stored in a covered concrete silo), and vitamins, minerals that got mixed in. I wasn't in on the how much of what decisions. Maybe some other stuff in that mix too, none of it seemed bad or even sloppy.

I'm just sayin, can you eat that combo and be healthy? No but a cow can and be productive! I know you can also feed them combos distillers grain and other by products like the smushy tomato extras from making ketchup. They can take all kinds of left overs that we can't or won't eat and turn it into milk and meat. WOW cows are awesome :-)

[mare]

HE - Search for "Nutrient Requirements for Dairy Cattle" and "Nutrient Requirements for Beef Cattle." Lots of academic papers. Lots of vet and trade journal articles.

I agree, GM, cows are awesome.

[Gem's Mom]

I miss my cows :-( My friend still works at the diary and gives me updates. I loved the cows and the job but the owners... I've seen them out and about and we all purposely ignore each other, so mature I know lol

[Remali]

GM, that is a much better diet than some cows are getting, I wish more farms fed like yours.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm not going to pretend to know God's will, but I do think it's written fairly clearly in Genesis...

I don't agree that it's that clear at all. But like you said... I'm not going to pretend to know God's original intent in Eden. I just doubt that he gave lions different teeth "before" an "original sin" that they played no part in. But hey... let's not turn this into a biblical exegesis. I certainly wasn't there. Maybe someday I'll get to ask.<P>

But it is pretty clear that either as created and/or as evolved, mankind is possessed of the teeth and the metabolism for an omniverous diet. To pretend otherwise is to, well, pretend. People are free to be vegetarians if they wish. But it has no basis in nature, biology, or health. It's a personal choice by people that get sqeamish about "animals with faces" and the sight of blood. OK... fine. But stay off my back about it. <P>

Funny how it's a lot of the same people (granola, liberal, veggie) that viscerally hate and whine about the so-called "christian right" for some imagined tendency for "forcing religion down their throats"... who are first in front of the parade to force their religion down other people's throats. Somewhat more literally, I suppose, in the case of the veggies. :)

[gabhainn]

Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak. (http://www.quotesandpoem.com/quotes/showquotes/author/ted-nugent/108414).....Ted Nugent

[magayle]

tomorrow oprah has a good show on vegan diet and what's in our meat:)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Vegetarians are cool. All I eat are vegetarians - except for the occasional mountain lion steak. (http://www.quotesandpoem.com/quotes/showquotes/author/ted-nugent/108414).....Ted Nugent

LOL... Gotta love Ted. Thanks Ted!!

[Remali]

There have been a lot of articles on factory farming.... I was talking to a friend about it the other day, and he reminded me about a recent article about food safety.

Feeding corn and soybeans (and whatever else) to cattle, instead of grazing the ruminants on grass, as they were genetically designed to do, changes the pH in their digestive tracts, this creates an environment for E. coli to breed. And the new phenomenon of feeding "distillers grains" is making the risk even more serious.
Add to that rations spiked with hormones and antibiotics.....

It is a known fact that the salmonella and E. coli outbreaks are tied to fecal contamination of the food supply. What do the factory farms produce, mountains of manure, where hundreds or thousands of chickens or cattle are kept confined in one location.

Fecal contamination, and the intermingling of millions of unhealthy animals is one of the best-kept secrets in the livestock industry.

I am talking about large-scale factory farming here, obviously. I know where I won't be buying my meant or eggs from.

[Remali]

Thanks Magayle, I'll have to watch that show.

Quote:
"Funny how it's a lot of the same people (granola, liberal, veggie) that viscerally hate and whine about the so-called "christian right" for some imagined tendency for "forcing religion down their throats"... who are first in front of the parade to force their religion down other people's throats. Somewhat more literally, I suppose, in the case of the veggies."

Actually, you are quite wrong, I eat some meat, and quite a few of my friends do too, we're not vegetarians, we just want safe food. So, well, ponder this..... go back and read thru some of your political posts..... how are you any different? Some food for thought.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

....go back and read thru some of your political posts..... how are you any different? Some food for thought.

Huh? I guess i don't understand the question.

[FlapJack]

I don't agree that it's that clear at all. But like you said... I'm not going to pretend to know God's original intent in Eden. I just doubt that he gave lions different teeth "before" an "original sin" that they played no part in. But hey... let's not turn this into a biblical exegesis. I certainly wasn't there. Maybe someday I'll get to ask.<P>

But it is pretty clear that either as created and/or as evolved, mankind is possessed of the teeth and the metabolism for an omniverous diet. To pretend otherwise is to, well, pretend. People are free to be vegetarians if they wish. But it has no basis in nature, biology, or health. It's a personal choice by people that get sqeamish about "animals with faces" and the sight of blood. OK... fine. But stay off my back about it. <P>

Funny how it's a lot of the same people (granola, liberal, veggie) that viscerally hate and whine about the so-called "christian right" for some imagined tendency for "forcing religion down their throats"... who are first in front of the parade to force their religion down other people's throats. Somewhat more literally, I suppose, in the case of the veggies. :)

If you don't interpret it (that part of Genesis) the way I did, are you going to share how you interpret it or does the discussion end here?

I don't know what you're implying with the last part or if you're even directing it at me. I should think not since you don't know me and I have not shoved anything down your throat :)

[WashingtonBay]

It is a known fact that the salmonella and E. coli outbreaks are tied to fecal contamination of the food supply. What do the factory farms produce, mountains of manure, where hundreds or thousands of chickens or cattle are kept confined in one location.

Fecal contamination, and the intermingling of millions of unhealthy animals is one of the best-kept secrets in the livestock industry.


Actually, (I'm almost sure I'm right on this!) I don't think the issue is fecal contamination of the living cow to poop... be it mountain or mole hill. It comes from digestive system contents being spilled onto the meat through a slip of the knife during butchering.

That's not any less disgusting, but it's important to know where the risk is.... It's not so much a matter of the cleanliness of the feedlot, or how many animals are there, it's the skill with which they're butchered. It can happen with just one, or a million and one. And it's any cow, not just unhealthy ones.


I am talking about large-scale factory farming here, obviously. I know where I won't be buying my meant or eggs from.I am not a fan of large factory production of meat or any of our food. But the efficiency required of modern markets can't just be ignored. There are millions of people living in the city and suburbs, the majority of our nation now, who cannot raise their own cow, let alone their own wheat and corn and vegetables. Let alone have them ready to harvest at any whim any week of the year someone wants a steak or a fresh garden salad.

I would love for there to be local production and distribution, if only to compartmentalize any mistakes to a smaller area. Nationwide distribution makes us all vulnerable to a mistake made far away.

But come up with another system of efficiently feeding a country that lives far away from the nearest cow... Oh and it must be cheap and nicely wrapped and brought to the supermarket around the corner please.

Those of us rural enough to produce our own meat... or buy local, should. I don't think the cities can rely on that though. Not really. Feel free to think of something better for them.

[magayle]

speaking of food safety....it won't be long before growing your own food isn't an option
http://www.organicconsumers.org/articles/article_21293.cfm
there's more recent developments about this bill that you can google, if interested
while you're at this site check out all the other food safety news:)

[mare]

Aaargh! The Food Safety Bill should be called "The Control of the Food Supply Bill."

Been fighting it for a couple years, but fear-mongers get more funding because they can get more negative emotions pumping. I'm not giving up, though.