Walker's "budget repair" bill

[HeavensEast]

Well, I just read an overview of it.
Both my roommates and a friend from the equestrian team (who wants to get into Education, so I guess I can understand that) are supporting a "Vote No" cause on Facebook. I would really like to ask if they've actually read it, but I have only read an overview myself.
What are the effects? What will restricting the unions do to help with the budget cuts? I'm so clueless when it comes to this stuff. :huh:
http://wispolitics.com/index.iml?Article=226535
http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/115726754.html
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41524292/ns/local_news-milwaukee_wi/

[Tiz]

"“It’s fair to ask public employees to make a pension payment of just over 5%, which is about the national average, and a premium payment of 12%, which is about half of the national average,” said Governor Walker. "

No, Governor Walker, it isn't fair to ask public employees to pay half what the private sector pays for their health benefits. They should pay their fair share, which would be strictly in line with what the private sector pays. Actually, they should pay for all of it, like small business owners do. Employer provided insurance and pension payments are a BENEFIT, not a right.

Public employees need to understand that the Golden Goose is gone. No mas. We're broke, and utter and complete self interest is going out of style.

[HeavensEast]

"“It’s fair to ask public employees to make a pension payment of just over 5%, which is about the national average, and a premium payment of 12%, which is about half of the national average,” said Governor Walker. "

No, Governor Walker, it isn't fair to ask public employees to pay half what the private sector pays for their health benefits. They should pay their fair share, which would be strictly in line with what the private sector pays. Actually, they should pay for all of it, like small business owners do. Employer provided insurance and pension payments are a BENEFIT, not a right.

Public employees need to understand that the Golden Goose is gone. No mas. We're broke, and utter and complete self interest is going out of style.So you think he's being too fair?

[Remali]

There have been rallies all over the state. People are royally pissed. Most people I have talked to all agree that Walker is a compete moron, and his statement about his willingness to mobilize the National Guard sure didn't help any...

[HeavensEast]

There have been rallies all over the state. People are royally pissed. Most people I have talked to all agree that Walker is a compete moron, and his statement about his willingness to mobilize the National Guard sure didn't help any...Well, I'm not sure in what context he used the National Guard statement, but it probably wasn't necessary.
Besides that, why are people pissed? Why is he a moron?
I know this has an effect on the UW system, that may be why I'm hearing about it on FB through people who are students.

[Remali]

A lot of what I am hearing is people are mad about losing their bargaining rights.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/11/scott-walker-unions-wisconsin-national-guard_n_822225.html?ref=fb&src=sp

[JackieB]

Actually, they should pay for all of it, like small business owners do. Employer provided insurance and pension payments are a BENEFIT, not a right.

Public employees need to understand that the Golden Goose is gone. No mas. We're broke, and utter and complete self interest is going out of style.

Tiz is right about this, HE. Providing healthcare benefits and a large (like enough to live off of) pension in retirement is just not something the government or business can afford to do anymore. It's insidious because at the time these agreements are being made, the costs aren't known and understood. Public employees will say "We don't earn that much...", but they aren't factoring in the $2 million or so per worker that has to be given to them during their retirement years.

The best thing that your generation can do about this, in my opinion, is try to get the playing field leveled for all workers, public and private. If we are all required to pay for our healthcare and save for our retirements, we'll be more or less equally motivated to address problems associated with those areas.

As it is now, workers who receive those benefits fight mightily (understandably) to keep them for themselves, which means they resist reform measures. Then there are those of us who pay for all of this ourselves (my wife and I are self-employed) who are not interested in paying taxes to provide something for others that we have no possibility of receiving ourselves.

I didn't read the articles, but wanted to comment in suppor of what Tiz said.

[Tiz]

Doesn't it make your head spin to see people flipping out about being asked to pay 12% of their health insurance premiums, Jackie? Or, as with New Jersey's teacher's union 1%?

Unbelievable.

[grandmadeb]

I think what gets people upset is that he is trying to balance his budget on the backs of state workers. The same thing is happening in NY and while I understand that the state needs to cut back, it needs to cut back everywhere but targeting state employees is the EASIEST thing to do and gets lots of support and is not political suicide. Are there some things afforded to some state workers that need to be addressed?... You betcha. Is there a lot of waste in the state government? You betcha. But the politicians would actually have to look for it and admit it is there and that they have done nothing but let it go on. Our former gov. Mr. Patterson, wanted to cut state worker salaries and right after he put it out there he gave his own staff very generous raises. Can you take the man seriously? And Mr. Cuomo will never be able to clean up the mess his father left behind.
Everyone, including the government, needs to live within its means and some hard choices will have to be made and most of all, people have to stop relying on the government, local, state, and federal, for everything in their lives.
As a side note my hubby will be retiring from a state job and his pension will be less that $20,000 a year so the rank and file are not bringing down fat pensions!

[natisha]

The State has to work within a budget. They can't borrow from other Countries or print money like the feds do.The State is overdrawn from the last fiscal year & something has to give.
Worker compensation is the largest part of the budget.
Before Walker was elected he said he was going to do this. People knew this, they voted him in so he's doing exactly what he said he would do. This is no surprise.
He gave them choices... pay cut, job cuts & hire private companies to do the work, unpaid leave days or help pay their own way. They refused all, so he made the choice for them. The only other choice was higher taxes & we are already quite high.

He's also offering tax relief to companies who move here. Illinois raised their taxes by like 60%. Companies are leaving there. If they come here all the better for us.
If he doesn't do something like this many people will be layed off, some for good.
I have a pay freeze & you don't hear me whining, I'm happy to be working (well, not really, next time I'm gonna marry better).

Remember when Walker fired all the cleaners from the Milwaukee County Court House?They were warned. That place was a filthy mess, so he hired a private firm that now keeps it spotless for way less money.

I'm glad he's doing what he said he would do. Wisconsin has been a tax joke for far too long.

[HeavensEast]

My Chemistry professor was complaining about this in class this morning. "I don't like to bring politics into class discussion, but let me just tell you a little story.." He explained how he moved here 9 years ago from Tennessee and took a 25% pay cut because of our school systems. I agree, there are probably exponentially better than Tennessee. However, he moved from a research job to a teaching position. Not the same thing. Plus, a lot more benefits.
He also tied into it what we are learning currently about: Chemical equilibrium.
He said since Walker is messing with the equilibrium of the system, the public workforce is striking back to shift the equilbrium back into place. Or something of that sort.
However, I don't believe there was equilibrium in the first place. That's why the debt is so high.

[Remali]

I've been watching the issue on TV and listening on local radio..... a lot of the problem stems from WI being one of the lowest paid states, and people are not happy that they cannot at least talk about this with the governor..... they want to at least have a say and they are not being offered that. But I do agree that it isn't fair for some people to get free healthcare, or almost-free, while the rest of us schmucks try to muddle along. I can sort of see both sides.

[HeavensEast]

I've been watching the issue on TV and listening on local radio..... a lot of the problem stems from WI being one of the lowest paid states, and people are not happy that they cannot at least talk about this with the governor..... they want to at least have a say and they are not being offered that. But I do agree that it isn't fair for some people to get free healthcare, or almost-free, while the rest of us schmucks try to muddle along. I can sort of see both sides.
Lowest paid as far as public workers?

[Remali]

They were saying as far as teachers' pay. And, no doubt in general.

From what I've been reading and hearing, I think one thing that really upset people was Walkers attitude and the way he went about it, the threat about putting the National Guard on alert, he said that quite early on, was really not necessary and more of a slap in the face.
Of course since that statement was first issued he has sort of changed his "story" about the whole National Guard thing.....

[Remali]

Quote: "While other states have proposed bills curtailing labor rights, Wisconsin's measure is the most aggressive anti-union move to solve budget problems. It would end most collective bargaining for state, county and local workers, except for police, firefighters and the state patrol."



http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/thousands-protest-anti-union-840444.html

[JackieB]

However, I don't believe there was equilibrium in the first place. That's why the debt is so high.

Definitely smarter than your prof. on that one!

[natisha]

They were saying as far as teachers' pay. And, no doubt in general.

From what I've been reading and hearing, I think one thing that really upset people was Walkers attitude and the way he went about it, the threat about putting the National Guard on alert, he said that quite early on, was really not necessary and more of a slap in the face.
Of course since that statement was first issued he has sort of changed his "story" about the whole National Guard thing.....He had about 300 protesters outside his family home though they knew he was in Madison. His little kids were home though.

[natisha]

Quote: "While other states have proposed bills curtailing labor rights, Wisconsin's measure is the most aggressive anti-union move to solve budget problems. It would end most collective bargaining for state, county and local workers, except for police, firefighters and the state patrol."



http://www.ajc.com/news/nation-world/thousands-protest-anti-union-840444.htmlThey can still bargain for wages. The state workers are all Union, it's not about Union, it's about being broke & needing to do something about it. He would do the same if they weren't Union.

[natisha]

There have been rallies all over the state. People are royally pissed. Most people I have talked to all agree that Walker is a compete moron, and his statement about his willingness to mobilize the National Guard sure didn't help any...Well, budget minded people voted that 'moron' in. All knew what was about to come down. If most people were against it he wouldn't be where he is now.
That's not the only cut planned.

HE ask your prof. what he would do to balance the budget?

[Remali]

Natisha, where did you hear that they would still be able to negotiate wages? From what I have read and heard, negotiating wages would not be an option.

I'm not saying I disagree or agree with Walker (altho I don't car for the man).... I can see both sides. I have no idea about the people who were at his home protesting, so I'm not sure what you mean there?

[natisha]

Natisha, where did you hear that they would still be able to negotiate wages? From what I have read and heard, negotiating wages would not be an option.

I'm not saying I disagree or agree with Walker (altho I don't car for the man).... I can see both sides. I have no idea about the people who were at his home protesting, so I'm not sure what you mean there?
The state’s civil service system, among the strongest in the country, would remain in place. State and local employees could continue to bargain for base pay, they would not be able to bargain over other compensation measures
That was in the first article HE posted

Scare tactics-regarding the home protests.

[Remali]

Also found this....

http://www.bargainingforbenefits.com/?p=65

I was thinking about the cap on wages. So, OK, that makes sense now, thanks!

I agree, not a good idea to go to someone's private residence and start protesting there.

[Tiz]

Well, budget minded people voted that 'moron' in. All knew what was about to come down. If most people were against it he wouldn't be where he is now.
That's not the only cut planned.

HE ask your prof. what he would do to balance the budget?

Natisha, you know better! Don't sucker into that question because the answer is always "Tax the rich! They need to pay their fair share!".

What liberals, and our current government, don't seem to grasp is that there is a finite amount of money in the private sector's hands. It isn't a bottomless pit. And what public employees need to grasp is that it is absurd that the taxpayers who pay their generous wages and benefits make less than they do! I don't want to hear anyone from the public sector talking about fairness.

[Remali]

Quote: "And what public employees need to grasp is that it is absurd that the taxpayers who pay their generous wages and benefits make less than they do!"

Yup.

[natisha]

Ok I read the article you posted. Why should that send shivers down anyone's spine? That is how the private sector works. You don't get a job then tell your boss how many vacation or sick days you demand. Don't like what's offered, bye. And most people can be fired from their jobs. If you don't perform as expected why should an employer keep you, even if that employer is the State, which is you & me by the way.
Most people contribute to their own retirement.
Many people took huge pay cuts just to keep a job. Look at Harley for example.
I don't wish hardship on anyone but everyone has been hit recently & had to make tough choices.
Everyone is always talking about fair this, fair that. Now is the time to make it fair.

What about the teachers planning a strike day in protest? They'll get paid for that day. The kids will miss a day of school. "What about the children?" We hear that all the time-:rolleyes:
We are out of money, we're taxed out.

[Remali]

Yes, I agree..... like I said before, I see both sides of it. But, I do think they have had it so good for so long that now they are not willing to tighten their belts like the rest of us have had to. Well, it's time for reality I guess. Teachers called in sick today apparently.

I think what really got to most people was the initial threat of the National Guard being called in. That was the "shiver down the spine".

It's on the News here, Walker was in my town yesterday. Sounds like there may be a few changes made to the budget plan, so, we'll see.

[natisha]

Natisha, you know better! Don't sucker into that question because the answer is always "Tax the rich! They need to pay their fair share!".

What liberals, and our current government, don't seem to grasp is that there is a finite amount of money in the private sector's hands. It isn't a bottomless pit. And what public employees need to grasp is that it is absurd that the taxpayers who pay their generous wages and benefits make less than they do! I don't want to hear anyone from the public sector talking about fairness.Poor people don't have employees. What we need is for the so called rich to say "screw it, I quit." They then live off their $$ :rolleyes:, maybe get a smaller mansion:rolleyes: sit back & watch the then for sure unemployed squirm.
People with money have it because they don't live beyond their means. I don't mean just rich folks either.Why is that such a hard concept for most to understand?
Every dollar spent by the Gov. is a dollar taken from someone else.

Every time I go to work & see support staff sitting around, watching the clock, waiting to leave. Try that day in, day out at a private sector job & see how long you last.

[natisha]

Yes, I agree..... like I said before, I see both sides of it. But, I do think they have had it so good for so long that now they are not willing to tighten their belts like the rest of us have had to. Well, it's time for reality I guess. Teachers called in sick today apparently.

I think what really got to most people was the initial threat of the National Guard being called in. That was the "shiver down the spine".

It's on the News here, Walker was in my town yesterday. Sounds like there may be a few changes made to the budget plan, so, we'll see.The National Guard threat was to stop riots & vandals, also to do some of the work the workers weren't doing. They weren't planning to gun down people.

[Remali]

Yes, I do know that. But when they first issued the Natl. Guard statement, there had not been any protests yet. Also, it was not mentioned until days later that the Natl Guard was intended for the prison workers, just in case. So, in the beginning, that statement was very misleading and really riled more than a few.

[natisha]

Walker was Milwaukee County Supervisor-need I say more?

Vicki McKenna, a conservative radio talk show host, had threats that her dogs would be killed. Just pointing out how crazy some people can get.

[Tiz]

Then the people who got riled up need to stop and think. The Guard is there to help keep things peaceful. They aren't planning on a coup, I'm sure.

[Remali]

That hasn't been reported here on our News, sad people have to resort to threats of harm. Did they find out who made the threat? For sure the teachers, etc. are pretty riled about it all, makes no sense tho to threaten a radio host, it's not like she has anything to do with Walker's budget plan.

National Guard hasn't been called out yet Tiz. At least as far as I know, I just had the local News on, no mention of that. They did mention some changes are being made to Walker's budget now.

ETA: This was discussed on TV tonight.... Not really a crisis? Hmmmm.....

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html?nstrack=sid:321943

[grandmadeb]

Then the people who got riled up need to stop and think. The Guard is there to help keep things peaceful. They aren't planning on a coup, I'm sure.

Well, maybe they are just having a flashback to the performance of the National
Guard and Kent State. It didn't stay peaceful there.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

About right.

[Tiz]

Well, maybe they are just having a flashback to the performance of the National
Guard and Kent State. It didn't stay peaceful there.

Kent State happened 40 years ago. Nothing like it happened before 1970, and nothing like it has happened since. I don't think The National Guard should not be used, as needed, as a result of that incident.

[HeavensEast]

Well, I had something typed up and accidentally deleted it. :doh:
Basically, I think certain groups of people are being ridiculous. Comparing Walker to Hitler and Mubarak is just totally off base.
There is a sign all around campus today:
Emergency All-Campus Meeting
Noon Thurs., Feb 17
at the CLOCK TOWER
Campus response to the assault on the university community

All members of the campus community urged to attend

Instructors: Please announce to your students and please consider ending classes early or beginning classes late to encourage your students to attend.

I didn't go. I had Biology lab at 1:10 and was preparing for the lab.

If people were really concerned about education, they wouldn't have cancelled class or ended it early. I would have been pissed if it were one of my classes. My parents are paying a lot of money for my education.
Plus, all the teachers that called in sick today. Are you really concerned about education or are you just upset that you have to make sacrifices? Plus, the money they are paying towards their pension is going to be theirs eventually.
Natisha and I were talking and she had a good analogy. "It's like when you tell a young boy, 'Son, we're having trouble paying the mortgage, so we need to cut back. No more video games for a while.' and he has a fit."
I personally know a high school teacher that wasn't able to be fired because of a union. She was horrible. I took Spanish for four years and I could have learned that amount of Spanish in probably 2 weeks of class here at college. Parents complained, students complained, but she had been there 20+ years and was protected by the union.

[HeavensEast]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/17/teachers-march-wisconsin-capitol-senate-moves-curtail-union-rights/

[JackieB]

This will be a good experience for you to observe and comment on, HE. I'm sure that you will hold various leadership positions during your career, so this is time will be helpful.

I don't really know the details (although it is rapidly becoming a major national story, too), but my mind is clear on defined benefit pensions. They have to go. All of them. Public and private (if any of those still exist). I'm not trying to pick on government employees, but these plans are so unsustainable that they will bring any city, state, or federal government to financial ruin.

[Remali]

MSNBC will be live in Madison tonight, I think it was the Ed Show that will be there. It was all over CNN today.

[natisha]

It's not all about having to pay for some of their own bennies.
The Unions are mad because it also states in the Bill that one is not obligated to join the Union or pay dues.
Now, if you want the job you have to pay union dues, which are automatically taken from your pay checks. You don't have to be in the union but you still have to pay.

Under the new Bill you don't have to pay or join but if you want to you have to actually write a check for the dues. (Kind of like if we all had to write checks for our payroll taxes taxes, we would really know what we were paying.) The unions know there would be a huge decrease in incoming funds.

Also it states that every 1-2 years (I forgot which) there is to be a secret ballot vote to continue the Union or not. The unions know that many find it irritating that their union dues are spent in ways they may not agree with, like campaigning.

Some States don't even have unions at all.
What is going on in Wisconsin is a perfect example of what happens when a Government tries to make a balanced budget & people think what they have been getting has become a right.

[natisha]

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/02/17/teachers-march-wisconsin-capitol-senate-moves-curtail-union-rights/Let them stay on that bus.
Here's an idea. It seems pretty easy to switch parties. Can't one of the Republicans just turn into a Democrat?

[natisha]

MSNBC will be live in Madison tonight, I think it was the Ed Show that will be there. It was all over CNN today.I saw a few street interviews with protesters. When asked what he was protesting one young man said, "To stop some dude from doing something."

[Remali]

It's getting ugly now, it's on the News.... Confrontations between protestors.

One person (shown on TV) commented why the teachers couldn't protest on the weekends, it's been days now that the schools have been shut down all over the state. I agree, it's getting ridiculous now. Too many kids are missing school because of this.

[Tiz]

When you consider the results our public school system delivers, I'm going to say it's been a while since these people have been about education.

[Remali]

I read something that made me wonder... Do public (state) employees get social security when they retire?

[natisha]

It's getting ugly now, it's on the News.... Confrontations between protestors.

One person (shown on TV) commented why the teachers couldn't protest on the weekends, it's been days now that the schools have been shut down all over the state. I agree, it's getting ridiculous now. Too many kids are missing school because of this.Get a crowd angry over reasons they are not sure of & they will find something to act out on. That's why they flip cars. Most of the protesters were bussed in.
Is this really even about most teachers? Don't local taxes pay for area schools?
Where are the other State workers?
This have nothing to do about teaching or the quality of education. We'll see how much those kids protesting protest when their school year is extended to make up for lost days.
If any private industry person had a boycott like this they would be fired. Oh, yeah, that's in the bill too. No more protected jobs for bad workers.

[natisha]

I read something that made me wonder... Do public (state) employees get social security when they retire?I guess it depends


How State And Local Government Employees Are Covered By Social Security And Medicare

SSA Publication No. 05-10051, June 2007, [View .pdf (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/10051.pdf)] http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/gifs/pdficon-small.gif (http://www.adobe.com/products/acrobat/readstep2_allversions.html) [Audio.mp3 (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/audio/10051/10051.mp3)] http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/image/spkr.jpg Do you work for an agency of a state or local government? Unlike workers in the private sector, not all state and local employees are covered by Social Security. Some are covered only by their public retirement pension program; some are covered by both public pensions and Social Security; and some are covered by Social Security only.

When it began, the Social Security program did not include any of these employees. Over the years, the law has changed. Most employees have Social Security protection because their states and the Social Security Administration entered into special agreements called “Section 218 agreements.” Others are covered by a federal law passed in July 1991 when Social Security was extended to state and local employees who were not covered by an agreement and were not members of their agency’s public pension system.

Except for workers specifically excluded by law, employees hired after March 31, 1986, also have Medicare ­protection. States may also obtain Medicare coverage for workers not covered for Social Security who have been continuously employed by the same state or local governmental employer since before April 1, 1986.

Those workers covered for Social Security under a Section 218 agreement are automatically covered for Medicare.

State and local government ­employees who are covered by Social Security and Medicare pay into these programs and have the same rights

[Remali]

Aha, thanks Natisha. I have heard that the pensions are 3 or 4 times more than what they'd get in social security benefits.

True. If I walked out on a job like these teachers and etc. are doing, I would be fired. I don't think they know how good they've had it, it's time for them to experience the real world like some of the rest of us. I would love to have their wages! When this all started I could understand that they'd want some things changed and perhaps some bargaining rights.... but now, especially in the last two days, it has gone way beyond anything reasonable. I would bet there are quite a few out of work teachers who would love to take their places.

The other state workers? You mean the government officials who were not at the capital in Madison today? Most were in Illinois.

[HeavensEast]

I saw some firefighters and police at the protests. However, they aren't affected as far as I know.

[natisha]

I saw some firefighters and police at the protests. However, they aren't affected as far as I know.Probably just getting action from a teacher-Oh no!!! Did I say that?

Again are FF & local cops paid by the State? I don't think so. State Patrol, yes?

[HeavensEast]

Probably just getting action from a teacher-Oh no!!! Did I say that?

Again are FF & local cops paid by the State? I don't think so. State Patrol, yes?
You're asking the wrong person. I couldn't tell you.

[HeavensEast]

http://www.uwlax.edu/statebudgetupdates/

[Tiz]

Governor Walker, here's an idea.

YouTube - Ronald Reagan-Remarks on the Air Traffic Controllers Strike (August 3, 1981)

It should be pretty easy to replace those teachers who are acting like animals, and the ridiculous Democrats who are hiding out. Do it!

[Remali]

It is on MSNBC now, the Ed Show. They're pretty much on the side of the protestors.
I try to see both sides of this, I think there is some good about this budget plan, and some not-so-good too.... it's such a mess....

ETA: It sounds like there are a few other things that Walker has proposed that people are not happy about, they just mentioned the elderly and Medicaid.....

[natisha]

It is on MSNBC now, the Ed Show. They're pretty much on the side of the protestors.
I try to see both sides of this, I think there is some good about this budget plan, and some not-so-good too.... it's such a mess....

ETA: It sounds like there are a few other things that Walker has proposed that people are not happy about, they just mentioned the elderly and Medicaid.....What did they mention? Any facts?

[HeavensEast]

Email from our chancellor:

Dear students and colleagues:

In the days since Governor Scott Walker released his Budget Repair Bill proposal we have witnessed an extraordinary outpouring of protest in Madison, La Crosse and throughout Wisconsin. While I must remain neutral on the topic of collective bargaining, I am grateful there is nothing preventing me from saying that I strongly support our fundamental American rights to free speech and assembly. And I commend those of you who've participated in the marches and rallies for expressing your views so civilly. As you know, the national and international news media are covering these events extensively and we can be proud that the world is being shown that democracy and citizen engagement are thriving here in our state.

Governor Walker maintains that it is preferable to solve our state's budget deficit by cutting state employee benefits rather than through raising taxes. While we can debate the wisdom of this strategy, one thing is indisputable to me; namely, that state employees like the approximately 1,000 people who work here at UW-L are in no way the cause of that deficit. Were our economy to be in better condition we would not even be having the present conversation. But our state is not taking in enough money to meet its spending commitments and, regrettably, current policies can not be sustained. This is a highly frustrating situation, because our UW-L faculty and staff are doing an outstanding job and it is painful to see them being singled out to solve a situation that they did not create. I often tell colleagues throughout the country that UW-L is a great university because it has such talented and dedicated staff, faculty and students; therefore, I think our employees deserve a raise in their compensation, rather than a cut. And when our state economy recovers I fully expect to see such an increase occur.

For now, though, I hope we'll all continue to exercise our fundamental rights to free speech and assembly appropriately. In particular, I'd like to remind everyone—faculty and students alike—how important it is to continue meeting the classroom obligations that are at the core of our mission. Because UW-L students pay more in tuition than the state provides in assistance to our University it is unfair to them to cancel classes in the hopes of expressing opposition to Governor Walker's plan. Likewise, even though it is commendable that so many of our students support their teachers, if students stage a "walk out" on classes they should not be excused from their responsibility to complete the assignments and coursework they missed. As always, when students miss classes they need to make arrangements with their professors; and UW-L professors have the right to determine that attending a political rally is not an acceptable reason for missing a class. Stated plainly, the demonstrations held so far at UW-L and Madison have been conducted in an appropriate manner, and many of us would be very disappointed to see that change. I hope you'll agree with me about this.

I hope you'll also agree that you can say what you will about Governor Walker, but there is no denying that he is a seasoned legislator and politician. Therefore, he is well aware that the manner in which he is handling the current situation will not be forgotten when the citizens of Wisconsin have the opportunity to consider reelecting him in 2014. Likewise, the manner in which we conduct ourselves also will be remembered by future generations of students, faculty and staff who contemplate joining our UW-L community.Thank you for your patience and civility during a very challenging and historic time.

Sincerely,

Joe

[Remali]

They did mention quite a few facts..... they were saying that there is no budget problem, that this is totally a political move on the part of Gov. Walker to get rid of Unions. They mentioned a few other things, one thing that I especially wish I could remember (about people who had backed the Republicans), I wonder if there is a video of that show online somewhere.... it was very interesting some of the things that they said and they backed it up, etc.

But, well, I guess we'll see. I also have been hearing that one major issue is how quickly this is being pushed by Walker, the protesters think it is just moving too fast and they want more time for discussions.

[natisha]

They did mention quite a few facts..... they were saying that there is no budget problem, that this is totally a political move on the part of Gov. Walker to get rid of Unions. They mentioned a few other things, one thing that I especially wish I could remember (about people who had backed the Republicans), I wonder if there is a video of that show online somewhere.... it was very interesting some of the things that they said and they backed it up, etc.

But, well, I guess we'll see. I also have been hearing that one major issue is how quickly this is being pushed by Walker, the protesters think it is just moving too fast and they want more time for discussions.No budget problem? There is $3.8 billion that is due by June when the new fiscal year comes around. States have to work within their means. Doyle side stepped this by using Obama(;)) stimulus to cover his over draw. The spending continued, now here we are.
These are the numbers they will have to pay towards their benefits
pension .02% to 5.8%
health care 4-6% to 12.6%, no co-pay, full coverage
Less than 1/2 of what the average worker pays
This will save us $300 million over the next couple of years.
There are approximately 300,000 state employed workers.
This is not about killing Unions, but the Unions know that if given a choice many people would choose not to participate. There are now laws on the books that employers must follow which protects workers. These laws weren't in place when the Unions started up. Do we really even need Unions now? Politicians sure do, unions are big contributors.
This is about balancing the budget without raising taxes or eliminating jobs.
A group called BarackObama.com is organizing many of the protesters. The DNC is backing them too. They have a right to protest but maybe they should have done it before Walker was elected. None of what he is doing is a surprise.

Oh & how is trashing bathrooms helpful to the protesters cause?

[Remali]

Yeah, I know....I have seen that too. So, who is right? I have to say they had some interesting facts last night on MSNBC (they were live in Madison) they interviewed a few people.... but I am now trying to figure out who it telling the truth.... One side says one thing, the other says something else.... I am sort of in the middle... I agree with some, disagree with other.... on both sides. :huh:

they said the budget was much worse a few years ago.....

Who is trashing the bathrooms? Where was this? I know they reported that there had been false reports of things like that.... but, if this really did happen, shame on them. I haven't heard anything about any organization backing them, most protesters are just regular folks like you and me and not backed by anyone. Where did you hear that? Just curious.... I like to get as much info as I can, to form an opinion one way or another.

Also, it is false that people are being bussed in. They are not being bussed in. There has been a lot of false reporting, especially from Fox Network. I think it was also Fox News that reported that Obama was behind the Madison protests, this has been reported now as false. There is a lot of false reporting out there unfortunately.... Sometimes you get more accurate reporting from the local radio and TV stations.

ETA: Not sure if this is true or not, but I just heard that the Tea Party is going to be bussed in to Madison tomorrow.

[natisha]

Yeah, I know....I have seen that too. So, who is right? I have to say they had some interesting facts last night on MSNBC (they were live in Madison) they interviewed a few people.... but I am now trying to figure out who it telling the truth.... One side says one thing, the other says something else.... I am sort of in the middle... I agree with some, disagree with other.... on both sides. :huh:

they said the budget was much worse a few years ago.....

Who is trashing the bathrooms? Where was this? I know they reported that there had been false reports of things like that.... but, if this really did happen, shame on them. I haven't heard anything about any organization backing them, most protesters are just regular folks like you and me and not backed by anyone. Where did you hear that? Just curious.... I like to get as much info as I can, to form an opinion one way or another.

Also, it is false that people are being bussed in. They are not being bussed in. There has been a lot of false reporting, especially from Fox Network. I think it was also Fox News that reported that Obama was behind the Madison protests, this has been reported now as false. There is a lot of false reporting out there unfortunately.... Sometimes you get more accurate reporting from the local radio and TV stations.

ETA: Not sure if this is true or not, but I just heard that the Tea Party is going to be bussed in to Madison tomorrow.
DNC playing role in Wisconsin protests
Ben Smith - Politico
The Democratic National Committee's Organizing for America arm -- the remnant of the 2008 Obama campaign -- is playing an active role in organizing protests against Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker's attempt to strip most public employees of collective bargaining rights.
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showal l (http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/DNC_playing_role_in_Wisconsin_protests.html?showal l)

Remali~Not sure if this is true or not, but I just heard that the Tea Party is going to be bussed in to Madison tomorrow.
N~well I guess they have as much right to show support as the protesters have to protest. If there is any trouble wanna bet who starts it?

[Remali]

It's hard to say who is correct and who isn't.... I guess we will find out in time.

Eh, I don't know about Ben Smith, he has weaved some previous false stories before....

I've been listening more to local news out of Madison itself, not saying they are correct all the time either, but I think hearing it from people who are there makes for more of an interesting take on it.

[HeavensEast]

Is there anything in the bill about tuition costs?
I overslept this morning, but my friend told me our chemistry professor was claiming the bill calls for a 26% increase in tuition costs.
By the way, I did go to class, just 20 minutes late. :o
Apparently I didn't miss much, chemistry wise.

[natisha]

I don't think there is a right or wrong in the big picture. Walker ran a campaign vowing to balance the budget & not raise taxes & he said what he would do. He's doing that. The majority voted him in for those reasons. I think some people are just shocked that a politician is doing as promised.

Facts: The average WI teacher's pay & benefits = $89,500-that's for 9 months of work. They can also work on their off months.
The average WI worker's wage & benefits is $61,00-that's for 12 months of work.

[natisha]

Is there anything in the bill about tuition costs?
I overslept this morning, but my friend told me our chemistry professor was claiming the bill calls for a 26% increase in tuition costs.
By the way, I did go to class, just 20 minutes late. :o
Apparently I didn't miss much, chemistry wise.I'll check but I believe the costs are determined by the institutions.

[Remali]

I haven't seen those figures.... I read that the average pay for teachers was more like $40,000 to $52,000.

Not sure about tuition, I haven't heard that. I heard something about the Special Olympics being cut out tho.
Again, who knows for sure.... there is so much info flying around out there now.

[natisha]

Is there anything in the bill about tuition costs?
I overslept this morning, but my friend told me our chemistry professor was claiming the bill calls for a 26% increase in tuition costs.
By the way, I did go to class, just 20 minutes late. :o
Apparently I didn't miss much, chemistry wise.

Costs/Tuition

Current 2010-11 tuition frozen at 2006-07 rates. (http://www.baywindfarm.com/news/tuition/)
Academic tuition is set by the University of Wisconsin Board of Regents. Student fees are recommended by each local campus, reviewed by the Chancellor and approved by the Board of Regents. University of Wisconsin Colleges tuition and fees are the lowest in the University of Wisconsin System.

N~ It seems to me that the Board can raise costs to cover the amount the teachers will have to pay for their own benefits, so the take home pay will be the same. So basically it seems like the schools are saying, "If you make us pay more we'll charge more?" That is not Walkers doing. It's all about the children:rolleyes:

[natisha]

I haven't seen those figures.... I read that the average pay for teachers was more like $40,000 to $52,000.

Not sure about tuition, I haven't heard that. I heard something about the Special Olympics being cut out tho.
Again, who knows for sure.... there is so much info flying around out there now.Yes, that's the pay but you have to add in the costs of benefits.
I once had a job that paid $30/hr with benefits, without benefits the wage was $48/hr.
Those benefits add up.

[natisha]

Funding
Special Olympics receives funding in support of the movement from individuals, corporations, foundations,
government and restricted grants. The vast majority of funding received is from individuals through the
Special Olympics direct mail program.

[Remali]

There are other aspects of Walker's bill that are pretty concerning..... apparently Badgercare and Medicare will be slashed. Not a good thing to have happen for many people.

Lots of talk today about the Koch brothers....

http://current.com/news/93004847_wi-gov-scott-walker-funded-by-the-koch-bros.htm?xid=RSSfeed

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/wisconsin-scott-walker-koch-brothers

[natisha]

http://walker.wi.gov/journal_media_detail.asp?prid=5622&locid=177

[Remali]

Well, it seems that Walker went back on his campaign promise, when he was elected he said he would negotiate with the people. I don't see him doing that now.

I don't think things would have gotten quite so bad if Walker would have at least come out more often and talked to people.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

From what I've been able to glean, there's nothing left to negotiate with. The options are simple: either the unions agree have all their members pay a little more for benefits, and give up collective bargaining for certain job types --or-- some thousands of state employees will have to be let go. That's the choices. There's no more money.

The concessions that the Governor has asked for seem awfully mild and reasonable to me. The trough is empty and the pigs need to back away.

[Remali]

Well that's the problem.... there has been a lot of talk these days that there actually is NOT a budget crisis and the reasons behind this bill are more about getting rid of unions.... it's been all over our local news here.

I agree that the public employees do need to start paying in more toward pensions and health insurance. But there are other factors and issues that need to be addressed, like some bargaining rights.

[WashingtonBay]

Most states don't have the 'option' of running a deficit. They must balance the budget.


And really, if I were to make a list of people who do NOT need a union, at the very top of the list would be state workers. It's not a sweat shop, it's not a dangerous job in a coal mine. In fact.... state jobs, supported by taxpayer dollars with benefits that usually rival or exceed those in the private sector, have none of the limited legitimate 'needs' for an employee union.

This behavior.... protesting minor cuts in benefits, during an economy when everyone else is facing many of the same cutbacks, is spoiled brat behavior and I'd fire them.

There's a lot of people who would love to have those jobs.

[JackieB]

This behavior.... protesting minor cuts in benefits, during an economy when everyone else is facing many of the same cutbacks, is spoiled brat behavior and I'd fire them.


I don't identify with the state employees on the budget issues - for sure! The average worker in the private sector pays 30% toward his/her benefits, people like me pay 100%, and state employees pay 5%-6%. And their rate of pay isn't really lower than what others earn, either.

But a conservative commentator on the news tonight made a good point when he said that the governor erred in wrapping up the collective bargaining issue with this as well. That way, the workers can say "This isn't about money..." And until the issue of collective bargaining comes off the table, it won't be. But then watch out. :)

[JackieB]

Well that's the problem.... there has been a lot of talk these days that there actually is NOT a budget crisis and the reasons behind this bill are more about getting rid of unions.... it's been all over our local news here.

I agree that the public employees do need to start paying in more toward pensions and health insurance. But there are other factors and issues that need to be addressed, like some bargaining rights.

That's really what's confusing things. There are two issues here and it would be much better if there was just one.

[Remali]

Exactly. There is just so much more to it than pensions and health insurance. It's NOT all about cuts in benefits.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Well that's the problem.... there has been a lot of talk these days that there actually is NOT a budget crisis and the reasons behind this bill are more about getting rid of unions.... it's been all over our local news here.

I'm sure the unions would like for people to believe that there's plenty of other-people's-money to give them whatever they want.

I agree that the public employees do need to start paying in more toward pensions and health insurance. But there are other factors and issues that need to be addressed, like some bargaining rights.

I don't happen to think that government employees should be unionized. They should not be in an adversarial relationship with the taxpayers that provide the money.

Frankly... I don't really understand why anyone would voluntarily join a union. I want my pay to be between me and my employer. I'll negotiate my own contract, based on the value that I can bring to the table. Why would I voluntarily limit my income and benefits to whatever lowest-common-denominator deal somebody else gets? It's baffling to me why anybody would settle for that.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...]This behavior.... protesting minor cuts in benefits, during an economy when everyone else is facing many of the same cutbacks, is spoiled brat behavior and I'd fire them. [...]

Roger that. They expect everybody else to cut back but them. Funny how when recessions come... the one segment that never has to ever really make do with less is the government sector. They never actually get less. They just get smaller increases than they wanted.

Anybody remember PATCO? Time for a little of that... and give some teachers that really want to teach the chance at those jobs.

[Remali]

Well, again.... if you watched some of the News from my area.... you would know that this is not entirely about cutbacks..... it is about so much more than that.

[twofingers]

the average teacher in Wisconsin makes 89,000.00 a year plus benefits. for that they are expected to work 6 hours a day 285 days a year. the average worker in Wisconsin makes 53,000.00 a year. for that they are expected to work 8 hours a day 322 days a year contribute 30 t0 50 % of to their health care, plus various percentages toward their retirements and pay the salaries and benefits of the teachers and other govt workers. you know the people who pay nothing for their own health care and retirements and contribute nothing to the GMP. In the neighborhood I live in (on my block) all but two of us work for the state or federal govrt. wanna guess who has the biggest houses and most toys? just saying. :innocent:

[Tiz]

Anybody remember PATCO? Time for a little of that... and give some teachers that really want to teach the chance at those jobs.

You didn't see the Reagan You Tube I posted a few pages back?

[Remali]

twofingers, not sure where you got those statistics, but they are not accurate. Teachers here in Wisconsin do not make $89,000 a year.

[natisha]

twofingers, not sure where you got those statistics, but they are not accurate. Teachers here in Wisconsin do not make $89,000 a year.

Wisconsin Teacher Salaries in Context

By Dan Collins (http://powip.com/author/admin/) on February 19th, 2011
On average, including benefits, Wisconsin teachers earn about $78k per year. I’m going to leave aside the “for nine months work” part of this, because I think it’s been hammered enough. The average household income in Wisconsin is about $52k per year (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/55000.html). So, teachers earn about 1.5 times the average household income in Wisconsin when you factor in the benefits, and many of those households are two-income households.
Leaving the issue of benefits out of the equation, teacher salaries in and of themselves average about what the average Wisconsin family earns (http://www.teacher-world.com/statespages/Wisconsin.html), even though many of those have more than one wage earner. A two-teacher family employed in Wisconsin public schools (and it’s not uncommon), is pulling in double what the average Wisconsin family does, and about treble if you include the benefits disparity.

[Remali]

Someone better let my friends and cousins who are teachers know that then. Also, the links and what I have read don't do not give those figures you mentioned above.... so, which source is correct I wonder.... seems there are varying reports out there on wages.

[natisha]

Someone better let my friends and cousins who are teachers know that then. Also, the links and what I have read don't do not give those figures you mentioned above.... so, which source is correct I wonder.... seems there are varying reports out there on wages.Teacher starting pay is crummy but it goes up nicely. Then again you have to have a Master's Degree & that's not too cheap. I think the real value is in the benefits, job security, lots of time off. No way could I be a teacher. I couldn't deal with the parents.
This isn't about what they make, it's about finding cuts to the budget.
What choice do we have? Do we want to be like CA & get rid of thousands of jobs & still be broke? No one here is losing their job.

[Remali]

I agree it is not about what they make (so not sure why all the links about pay...lol). There is a lot more to this budget bill, a LOT more. It will be interesting to see what happens, that's for sure. So many stories and reports out there right now, and all of them conflict....

If you have been listening and watching the News out of Madison, the protesters have pretty much agreed to the cuts in their pension and healthcare, it's basically about bargaining rights is what they are saying now.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_621358c6-3be9-11e0-a6e8-001cc4c03286.html

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/education/campus_connection/article_b74c2f70-3bb7-11e0-8a9b-001cc4c002e0.html

[natisha]

What is happening now is a good example of why Walker wants to get rid of the bargaining for benefits, plus the cost of course.
I don't think he will budge.

[natisha]

Jesse Jackson:rolleyes:

[Remali]

A government for the people by the people.... seems to be missing from Walker's thought process....

[Tiz]

The people just elected him, Remali. And, as the campaign was essentially an extended job interview, the people knew what they were getting.

Obama's Organizing for America is there, and Trumka, AFL-CIO, all screaming about the rich not paying their fair share. Does anyone think class warfare works anymore?

[Tiz]

Just saw a teacher in Wisconsin screaming into a TV camera that "This is for the kids! They won't have weekends off! They won't have 8 hour work days! This is for the K I D S!!!!!"

Well...

Kids, if you want weekends off, and 8 hour days, find a job that offers those things, OK? There, all fixed.

[Remali]

Well, time will tell.... Gov. Walker already killed hundreds of jobs when he axed high-speed rail, WI lost out on the money from that. High-speed trains would not only improve transportation but reinvigorate manufacturing and put people back to work in jobs that pay well. Did you know Walker did not even graduate college?

[Tiz]

Governor Walker wanted the federal transportation money to go to fixing bridges and roads. Obama wanted it for high speed rail between Madison and Milwaukie, at an initial estimated cost of $800 million dollars, or $10,171,646.00 per mile.

For every $1 Wisconsin public employees pay into their own retirement, the state pays $57. $58 total contribution. Just heard this on Huckabee's show, and did not research myself.

[Remali]

Well, now that money went to another state, and Wisconsin got nothing. Thanks Gov. Walker.

Isn't Huckabee on Fox? That was the channel that was reported as having the false information. I had posted a link about that.

[Tiz]

I didn't see your link. Do you have examples of Fox News falsehoods?

The federal government is beyond broke too, so good for Governor Walker for not contributing to the federal fiscal mess.

[Remali]

It was on the News here (local, well from Madison) about Fox News. I can try to find the link...

[gabhainn]

The federal government is beyond broke too, so good for Governor Walker for not contributing to the federal fiscal mess.
Amen, if more Governors had followed Jindahl and Perry's lead and quit living off the Fed tit maybe something could be done about the fed budget......Kevin

[Tiz]

I'm not going to wade through an article. If you're repeating a story about Fox News being untruthful then it's up to you to provide the examples.

[Tiz]

Amen, if more Governors had followed Jindahl and Perry's lead and quit living off the Fed tit maybe something could be done about the fed budget......Kevin

Jindahl. Perry, the new Republican Governor of Florida Scott, Walker. Kasich of Ohio not far behind, I'm sure.

No fed tit. It's good.

[Remali]

Well, you can find it online if you want to or not.... we have a lot of it on our news here obviously, seeing as I'm here in Wisconsin. Already provided the link to it earlier....

[Tiz]

Your gossip, your burden of proof, Remali.

[Remali]

Not gossip Tiz, it was on the News and online. Are you too lazy to look it up? lol. ;)

[twofingers]

A government for the people by the people.... seems to be missing from Walker's thought process....

the people who are missing the process are those whining now. Walker campaigned on cutting the budget and bringing fiscal responsibility to the government sector. he was elected by the people to do just that and now those who lost the election are abrogating their responsibilities. the dems by running away the teachers by not teaching. today of course there many more in the "square" because those who support the governor were working during the wee. the teachers did of course not lose any money by not doing their jobs. And the dems who ran away to another state are of course charging the taxpayers for their debauchery.

[natisha]

Not getting the train was the main reason I voted for Walker. If trains made money & people wanted to ride them then wouldn't a private business do it, run it etc. Nobody is going to pay a $30 fare to ride to work, then cab or bus fare to get from the station to their work place & repeat to get home again.
It wasn't going to be a high speed train & it was deisel.
Then you have to take into consideration all the private property that would have to be taken for the train, decreased property values along the whole line. It costs way too much to maintain-all for maybe a few hundred jobs?
We have a train from Milwaukee to Chicago already. Each fare is heavily subsidized by the State. Even trains in Chicago & New York lose money & they are actually used.
I can get to Madison from SE WI in an hour. I don't have to drive to a station & wait for a train, plan my trip around a train schedule or sit with strangers. I can drive cheaper, quicker, come & go when I want, make stops, alter my route if I need to.
Trains are expensive future bike trails.

[Tiz]

$30 fare, and the government(taxpayers)would have been subsidizing how much on top of that?

[Tiz]

Speaking of budget repair, Minnesota is trying to enact a huge state income tax increase, the highest in the nation, to over 14%, on incomes over $500K. It will be interesting to see how many people in that tax bracket don't move to South Dakota, Minnesota's neighbor, which has zero state income tax. Heck, sounds like a good reason to head for warmer temperatures too.

Tale of two solutions. We'll see which one pays the best.

[Remali]

The train wasn't going to be down there in the Milwaukee area.... it was coming up this way, thru La Crosse or Eau Claire. Funny, the passenger train that exists thru Tomah is still running and is used quite a lot, most rails-to-trails are not on the passenger train route, but on the freight route. We have no train up here in this area, so it was needed. And that would have created a lot of jobs. If a ticket was $30, that would have saved me (and many others) a ton of money, because I sure can't drive to Tomah for that.

Natisha, I'm not sure what train debate you are talking about.... but what I am referring to WAS indeed high-speed rail, we were all real excited up here in Eau Claire about it, we weren't sure if it was coming thru here or La Crosse..... read for yourself...

http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2009/11/19/connections-2030-rail-routes-spur-competition-between-la-crosse-eau-claire/

http://www.wqow.com/Global/story.asp?S=11989141

http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_2ca39e1c-330c-11df-a248-001cc4c002e0.html

[Tiz]

[/URL]

http://www.wqow.com/Global/story.asp?S=11989141 (http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2009/11/19/connections-2030-rail-routes-spur-competition-between-la-crosse-eau-claire/)

[URL="http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_2ca39e1c-330c-11df-a248-001cc4c002e0.html"]

As your link mentions, Wisconsin was to receive $810 million dollars for a route between Madison and Milwaukee. Some of that money was to "study" a route to the Twin Cities from Madison.

[Remali]

Well, they were not calling it a "study" on our local News, it was going to go thru LaCrosse no doubt. And I was not referring to the Milwaukee link in my post What does it matter Tiz, why so nit-picky? Honestly, you'd would argue with a fence post. Not sure why you like to put down every thing I say and rip on the links. This really isn't worth discussing any more.... it's become childish.

[Tiz]

Brother...

[natisha]

High-speed rail subsidies are a bad investment

5:00 am February 15, 2011, by Kyle Wingfield
I mentioned high-speed rail in my post last week (http://blogs.ajc.com/kyle-wingfield/2011/02/09/here-in-georgia-too-much-carolina-in-our-minds/) about the Charlottephobia infecting some people in metro Atlanta. Anyone who wants to know whether metro Atlanta, and Georgia, should fret over “losing” the high-speed rail race absolutely must read this column (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/13/AR2011021302203.html) by the Washington Post’s Robert Samuelson (links in the quoted sections are original throughout):
Vice President Biden, an avowed friend of good government, is giving it a bad name. With great fanfare, he went to Philadelphia last week to announce that the Obama administration proposes spending $53 billion over six years (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2011/02/08/ST2011020806998.html) to construct a “national high-speed rail system.” Translation: The administration would pay states $53 billion to build rail networks that would then lose money — lots — thereby aggravating the budget squeezes of the states or federal government, depending on which covered the deficits.
There’s something wildly irresponsible about the national government undermining states’ already poor long-term budget prospects by plying them with grants that provide short-term jobs. Worse, the rail proposal casts doubt on the administration’s commitment to reducing huge budget deficits. … How can it subdue deficits if it keeps proposing big spending programs?
High-speed rail would definitely be big. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood has estimated (http://www.houstontomorrow.org/livability/story/lahood-imagines-500-billion-in-high-speed-rail/) the administration’s ultimate goal — bringing high-speed rail to 80 percent of the population — could cost $500 billion over 25 years. For this stupendous sum, there would be scant public benefits. Precisely the opposite. Rail subsidies would threaten funding for more pressing public needs: schools, police, defense.
Samuelson then recounts the long, sad history of Amtrak, including higher fares relative to other modes of transportation and an inability, because its passenger load is so small as to be irrelevant (one-tenth of 1 percent of all passenger miles in the country, according to Samuelson), to reduce traffic congestion or improve the environment. And all of this comes at an exorbitant level of subsidy — $35 billion for Amtrak since 1970, the vast majority of which likely benefits upper-income travelers on the East Coast (http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/inq-phillydeals/Philly_38_minutes_to_Manhattan_60_minutes_to_DC.ht ml) — compared to other types of transportation:
In 2004, the Transportation Department evaluated federal transportation subsidies from 1990 to 2002. It found passenger rail service had the highest subsidy (http://www.bts.gov/programs/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/) ($186.35 per thousand passenger-miles) followed by mass transit (http://www.bts.gov/programs/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation/html/federal_subsidies_to_passenger_transportation.html ) ($118.26 per thousand miles). By contrast, drivers received no net subsidy; their fuel taxes more than covered federal spending. Subsidies for airline passengers were about $5 per thousand miles traveled. (All figures are in inflation-adjusted year 2000 dollars.)
High-speed rail would transform Amtrak’s small drain into a much larger drain. Once built, high-speed-rail systems would face a dilemma. To recoup initial capital costs — construction and train purchases — ticket prices would have to be set so high that few people would choose rail. But lower prices, even with favorable passenger loads, might not cover costs. Government would be stuck with huge subsidies. Even without recovering capital costs, high-speed-rail systems would probably run in the red. Most mass-transit systems, despite high ridership, routinely have deficits.
But for me, the kicker is this observation:
The reasons passenger rail service doesn’t work in America are well-known: Interstate highways shorten many trip times; suburbanization has fragmented destination points; air travel is quicker and more flexible for long distances (if fewer people fly from Denver to Los Angeles and more go to Houston, flight schedules simply adjust). [emphasis added]
This isn’t just about the difficulty of prying Americans out of their cars and off airplanes; it’s about the wisdom of doing so. In no other facet of American life are people demanding less flexibility and adaptability. Why would that be different for transportation?
Rail only begins to make sense for traveling over long distances. And, for the vast majority of 21st-century America, it doesn’t make any sense to spend billions of dollars we don’t have to build an inflexible, hugely subsidized, slower, publicly operated transportation option (rail) to compete with a highly flexible, less subsidized, faster, privately run transportation option already in widespread use (air travel).
– By Kyle Wingfield

[natisha]

The train wasn't going to be down there in the Milwaukee area.... it was coming up this way, thru La Crosse or Eau Claire. Funny, the passenger train that exists thru Tomah is still running and is used quite a lot, most rails-to-trails are not on the passenger train route, but on the freight route. We have no train up here in this area, so it was needed. And that would have created a lot of jobs. If a ticket was $30, that would have saved me (and many others) a ton of money, because I sure can't drive to Tomah for that.

Natisha, I'm not sure what train debate you are talking about.... but what I am referring to WAS indeed high-speed rail, we were all real excited up here in Eau Claire about it, we weren't sure if it was coming thru here or La Crosse..... read for yourself...

http://dailyreporter.com/blog/2009/11/19/connections-2030-rail-routes-spur-competition-between-la-crosse-eau-claire/

http://www.wqow.com/Global/story.asp?S=11989141

http://lacrossetribune.com/news/local/article_2ca39e1c-330c-11df-a248-001cc4c002e0.html
. How fast will the high speed trains go through my town?
The rail line is being engineered for a maximum speed of 110 mph. However, there will be many areas where such speeds will not be possible, especially in congested areas, near station stops, etc. Built up areas will receive security fencing and landscaping as appropriate for public safety and to minimize the rail line's intrusion to the community. The average speed is anticipated to be 85-87 mph. Current passenger service in the corridor has a top speed of 79 mph, and an average speed of 46-48 mph.
10. Why won't the trains go faster, like in Europe?
Careful modeling of ridership and costs has indicated that 110 mph service is the most cost effective at this time. Sustaining operating speeds in the 125 to 135 mph range and above would require electrification of the corridor. The models show that higher speeds do not increase ridership sufficiently to justify the higher costs within our 25 year planning horizon. However, the system is being designed to allow for higher speeds in the future as conditions change

Remali, the train was proposed to run from Milwaukee to Madison then possibly head up your way.They have speed limits through much of the route. A big problem was getting communities to agree to having stops there. It would also have to go through cities around Waukesha (mid way between Mil & Mad.)with very high property values & much new construction,
I have a friend who is all for the train but doesn't want to see it or hear it in her neighborhood. She has a $1.5 million home & wants to keep it that way. So some people want the train but they want it in someone else's back yard, not theirs.

[natisha]

$30 fare, and the government(taxpayers)would have been subsidizing how much on top of that?
Amtrak gets about $40 per rider in subsidies. I'm not sure how much a fare is from Milwaukee to Chicago, the most used route in this area

Ok, checked. A ticket is $22, one way. That's to a downtown Chicago Station, then you need a cab to get to where you're going.

[natisha]

Day 4 for a teacher walkout. There are Drs. giving excuses at the protest site. I don't think that is very ethical. Nice message for our youths too.:rolleyes: Good way to teach lying & cheating to get what you want.

[WashingtonBay]

Fraud is a firing offense. Whether they are real doctors or not.

[natisha]

Fraud is a firing offense. Whether they are real doctors or not.Then there should be 4 districts in WI with a lot of openings for teachers.
The Dems say they will stay away as long as needed. Walker says go ahead.
He plans on holding a press conference soon.

[JackieB]

The Dems say they will stay away as long as needed.

That's just wrong. If he's operating within the Constitution of the State of Wisconsin, they must cast their votes. Or resign from the legislature. That is an acceptable option if one is so morally conflicted by an aspect of his/her job.

But staying away is completely unacceptable. I wouldn't defend that for one minute and I support the right to collective bargaining if the teachers want it.

[natisha]

That's just wrong. If he's operating within the Constitution of the State of Wisconsin, they must cast their votes. Or resign from the legislature. That is an acceptable option if one is so morally conflicted by an aspect of his/her job.
That would be like me getting a job at an abortion clinic then refusing to go to work because I didn't like what went on & still expected to get paid.
They should go to work, cast their vote against it, then boot Walker out at the next election & repeal it. But...seeing as how the majority of people who elected Walker knew what he planned & voted him in...well.

If they don't come back soon there is going to be a recall on their seats. They'll come back.

[Tiz]

How anyone could support what the Democrats are doing is beyond me. Walker supporter or not, government should not be held up by a power stunt like that. I hope recall efforts are being organized today.

I predict that Walker won't get the boot. But the next time Wisconsin voters go to the polls, they'll be sure to consider how many seats it takes to reach a quorum, and will vote accordingly. One more Democrat seat goes Republican, this stunt would be impossible.

[natisha]

How anyone could support what the Democrats are doing is beyond me. Walker supporter or not, government should not be held up by a power stunt like that. I hope recall efforts are being organized today.

I predict that Walker won't get the boot. But the next time Wisconsin voters go to the polls, they'll be sure to consider how many seats it takes to reach a quorum, and will vote accordingly. One more Democrat seat goes Republican, this stunt would be impossible.What's a quorum?

[gabhainn]

What's a quorum?
the minmal number required to hold a vote........Kevin

[Tiz]

Which is 20 in the Wisconsin state house. 19 Republicans now, 14 Democrats for now.

[JackieB]

They should go to work, cast their vote against it, then boot Walker out at the next election & repeal it.

Or resign. That's honorable if someone is unable to participate for conscientious reasons. But there is no justification for walking out.

[natisha]

The latest, if they don't come back & vote on this, besides possibly being recalled there will be 1500 layoffs, followed by 6000 later.
In the meantime Walker is going all over things that don't need a quorum (my new word) vote.

[Tiz]

I just saw one of Wisconsin's Republicans on Fox. He's worrying about the nastiness and potential for violence of the protest. He's starting to wobble. I didn't see his name, Natisha, but he needs you, and your friends, emails and phone calls. He was on Fox and Friends this morning, so you can find out who he is on the Fox News website.

[Arrow]

I have no idea about whether or not this will turn out to be true, but it's spreading like wildfire right now:

A newspaper editor posed as one of the Kochs, and Walker says some interesting things--write-up here with link to tapes, I guess it's all over youtube, too--

http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0211/Walker_pranked.html?showall

And as for the budget shortfall that Walker talks about--the unions aren't the problem--

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/ezra-klein/2011/02/unions_arent_to_blame_for_wisc.html


an excerpt--

Update: I've been persuaded that the surplus-to-deficit picture is more complicated that I initially understood. The budget report is working with two time periods simultaneously: 2010-2011, and then 2011-13. The $130 million deficit now projected for 2011 isn't the fault of the tax breaks passed during Walker's special session, though his special session created about $120 million in deficit spending between 2011 and 2013 -- and perhaps more than that, if his policies are extended. That is to say, the deficit spending he created in his special session is about equal to the deficit Wisconsin faces this year, but it's not technically correct to say that Walker created 2011's deficit. Rather, he added $120 million to the 2011-2013 deficits, and perhaps more in the years after that.

It's a good article--reform is needed, clearly, but Walker is going for so much more--

[Remali]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/21/AR2011022103778.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

[natisha]

Walker didn't say anything new. Well ,maybe the baseball bat thing but I doubt he'd be able to take on thousands with it. Walker went along with what the other guy said first, both in a joking manner.
On the other hand, if a friend called me I would know their voice right away & they would have my cell phone number, not have to try to get through on a public line. Maybe Walker did think it was Koch, a contributor, so he talked to the guy but to me it doesn't sound like he's in too tight with him.

[Tiz]

The author of the Washington Post article is Ezra Klein. He's the left wing commentator who contributes to Keith Olbermann's show, Rachel Maddow's show, and MSNBC , in general.

He may be best known for creating Journolist, a group of "journalists" who colluded on how best to help certain causes, and the Obama administration, with their writings. For instance, you may have noticed that nearly everyone, and everything conservative, is now being labeled racist? That's one example of their efforts.

In other words, Ezra Klein is an unethical ideologue, and can't be considered a fair, or truthful, source for information.

[natisha]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2011/02/21/AR2011022103778.html?hpid=opinionsbox1Unions have been a reliable source of political support for the Democratic Party, including campaign contributions

Ok, so, say I don't want my money to go to a party I don't care for, why should I have no choice? Also shouldn't Union dues be paid to support Union activities, not politics?

[Tiz]

I just saw Richard Trumka, AFL-CIO president, say he is in touch with the White House daily, and is there in person 2 or 3 times a week.

Did you know that 6 Cabinet members did not have any contact with the President in the first two years of the administration? Six out of fifteen, no contact, whatsoever.

Union boss, yes. Cabinet members, no.

[Tiz]

I just saw one of Wisconsin's Republicans on Fox. He's worrying about the nastiness and potential for violence of the protest. He's starting to wobble. I didn't see his name, Natisha, but he needs you, and your friends, emails and phone calls. He was on Fox and Friends this morning, so you can find out who he is on the Fox News website.

Turns out he isn't "getting" wobbly. He wants the collective bargaining aspect of this bill to expire in two years, so that it can be rehashed later. His wife, interestingly, is a Superintendent of Schools in Wisconsin.

[Remali]

This budget bill not only affects public employees, but people in the private sector as well. Our Wisconsin Badgercare is also under fire, and this budget bill will leave many people without health insurance in Wisconsin.
The director of Human Services in one county here was just on TV stating that if this happens he is worried about the thousands of people who are on Badgercare in his county, and the AODA and mental health patients that rely on this insurance so much, as well as many families and children.

[Arrow]

The author of the Washington Post article is Ezra Klein. He's the left wing commentator who contributes to Keith Olbermann's show, Rachel Maddow's show, and MSNBC , in general.

He may be best known for creating Journolist, a group of "journalists" who colluded on how best to help certain causes, and the Obama administration, with their writings. For instance, you may have noticed that nearly everyone, and everything conservative, is now being labeled racist? That's one example of their efforts.

In other words, Ezra Klein is an unethical ideologue, and can't be considered a fair, or truthful, source for information.

Snort--for God's sake, you flaming idiot. That's what half the world says about Fox News. You don't consider facts, you never consider facts--all you ever do, Tiz, is consider the source. One side only lies, the other side only tells the truth. You are a fool.

[Remali]

Anyone listen to the tape of Walker talking to someone who he thinks is David Koch......? Unreal. Walker talks about "ratcheting up" the layoffs, as if he is happy about it and that layoffs are a good thing. Walker even admits to considering planting "trouble makers" in the crowd of protesters. He has the nerve to even say "drop the bomb" on them....

ETA: It's posted on Youtube now.

[WashingtonBay]

Snort--for God's sake, you flaming idiot. That's what half the world says about Fox News. You don't consider facts, you never consider facts--all you ever do, Tiz, is consider the source. One side only lies, the other side only tells the truth. You are a fool.

Name calling right off the bat Arrow? We're unusually cheerful today aren't we? :p

The source is important. Not the only important thing, but good to "consider".

I didn't know this source from Adam... but knowing he's worked for Olbermann, along with the other claims, says something about the inherent bias in it. Doesn't necessarily make it invalid, but it darn sure should be considered.

Haven't had time to read it or listen.... Not that vital that I know what a liar got him to say...

[Tiz]

So, Governor Walker is owned by puppet masters, the Koch brothers. I would expect him to recognize his master's voice. Dang, I guess the doofus that taped Walker made Walker's case, instead of his own.

I wonder if the Koch brother he was impersonating will sue him?

Arrow, it's possible that half of the people in your world say Fox News is lying. However, your propensity for the left wing echo chamber tends to minimize the importance of that number.

[mare]

Holy smokes, Arrow. Come on down out of the rafters, lady! For one thing, it's the internet. For another, your opinion can count as much as anyones. The only thing we don't get to do is WIN. We just share thoughts and links. Really it doesn't matter what you call whomever, but it does make me sigh and roll my eyes, kind of denegrates your input, too (though I still read it). Same as when anyone loses it on the 'net.

The sort of thing happening in Wisconsin seems to be where lots of states, fed agencies and companies are going.

I really don't get why the officials want to push the "no bargaining" type thing. Except for long-term greed. I say that because with the finances of states the way they are, the unions could kick and scream for bigger and better benefits and higher wages until they croak, but there is NO MONEY! Can't give what you don't have.

[Remali]

That's the thing mare, it's not about money, it's about busting the unions.

[mare]

That's the thing mare, it's not about money, it's about busting the unions.

I think it is about the money. Union wages and benefits go down = less money for union wages and investments. Government/companies get unions eliminated = lowered costs and more profit long term.

As usual, though, I think both sides are wrong. The unions won't make concessions - not significant ones, and they are greedy. The companies/gov't agencies are greedy.

[Remali]

Well, it's all about politics really, bust the unions and you bring the Democrats down....

[WashingtonBay]

It's about being frugal.

No one thinks it's greedy to say "don't pay $500 for that saddle, you can get it for $475 over here."

It's about trying to get more for the taxpayer's money in a time when taxpayers have elected this guy to do just that. If I was in Wisconsin, I'd be pleased. But then I don't believe public employees should be union. At all.

[Remali]

It was just on the News here, WI isn't broke.... it is ALL about going after the Unions and bringing the Unions down. Not about the budget so much at all.

[WashingtonBay]

Depends on what the definition of broke is. I think the taxpayers feel broke, they think government is costing them too much... and they elected a guy who said he would make big cuts.

And if the goal is busting those unions... I wouldn't say it's a bad goal. :)

[natisha]

It was just on the News here, WI isn't broke.... it is ALL about going after the Unions and bringing the Unions down. Not about the budget so much at all.How is not having enough money to pay your bills not broke? How can spending more that you have not lead to broke?
There is a budget with a maximum. We are past the maximum.We have to stay within the budget & if we keep spending as we are we will be further in trouble.
I get local news here too, they seems not to care that we are in a hole.
If half the Union workers are Republicans, heck even if only 1/4 were, do you think it is fair that their money is spent on campaigns they may not believe in? As a tax payer I am the one indirectly paying for every penny spent on politicians through Unions. Let the politicians find their own money through donations & not just sit back knowing Unions are an endless ready made source.
Why do Unions, who are supposed to be there to help workers, give money to certain people & not others anyway? This is money that is a forced payment from the workers. They have no choice-pay or lose your job. Is that fair? If people liked the Unions so much why are Unions so afraid of losing money? People would still be happy to write checks every month wouldn't they?
If this Bill ends up killing Unions then perhaps they are meant to die.

[Remali]

There is a lot more to this bill..... lots of non-public employee people are going to be effected too.... in a bad way, as in losing health insurance. That hits a little too close to home for me. Also, funding for many other things on the chopping block.... It's a royal mess.

[gabhainn]

MY 2 cents is the unions have long since out lived their usefulness, I grew up on the gulf coast of Texas, about the only place in Tx that the unions have any kind of hold. I watched people pay the unions to is essence be unemployed. They would strike the non union mgmt would bring in strike breakers and union members would be unemployed and STILL paying union dues. As an adult I was a correctional officer for 8 yrs. I joined afscme, simply cuz I got a free jacket. after about 3 months of giving them money I needed a lawyer, something they are supposed to provide, they gave me a negotiated rate with their lawyer that cost me 1/2 again as much as one I could have hired on my own. That was the end of that, afscme is one of the groups in Wis screaming I agree with WB public employees shouldnt be union at all.....Kevin

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Whatever is bad for unions is good for the country. It's time for them to just be gone. They've been corrupting this country long enough. Public employees especially. They have no right to hold taxpayers hostage.

[mare]

Meh...

It's just the pendulum swinging from being in favor of one greedy group to another.

[natisha]

Hey Tiz, here's a fact for you. Some on the left are quick to go to name calling when they have nothing else or maybe you could just consider the source.

[Remali]

Meh...

It's just the pendulum swinging from being in favor of one greedy group to another.

Very true mare.

[Tiz]

Hey Tiz, here's a fact for you. Some on the left are quick to go to name calling when they have nothing else or maybe you could just consider the source.

Arrow has been directing that type of vitriol toward me since Horse.com days, Natisha. Don't worry about it, I do consider the source. Probably in the next paragraph she will be criticizing someone else's language by saying something like "After all, isn't a forum for debate? So why not debate, why fling mud if you don't agree..... whatever happened to civil discussion...."

:p

[natisha]

I think Walker should agree to the bargaining rights when they come back. Still leave in the Union dues option (that alone will kill the Unions over time) & no raises over cost of living. They already said they would pay for their portion of benefits.
Oh, & fire all the treachers who did a walk out past 3 days.

[Tiz]

I think it's important that he hold his position on collective bargaining being restricted. If he compromises now, the rest of the country's minority party will think it's OK for elected representatives to stop government the way they've done in Wisconsin.

Elections have consequences. If voters like the message of your opposition and vote you out, you aren't in control anymore. It's how our representative government is designed to work.

What's with all the red shirts on the protesters there?

[natisha]

I think it's important that he hold his position on collective bargaining being restricted. If he compromises now, the rest of the country's minority party will think it's OK for elected representatives to stop government the way they've done in Wisconsin.

Elections have consequences. If voters like the message of your opposition and vote you out, you aren't in control anymore. It's how our representative government is designed to work.

What's with all the red shirts on the protesters there?They've already done the same thing, in Ohio I think? Pink slips will be going out shortly if they don't come back.
I'd like for Walker to keep a strong stand but does collective bargaining have a pressing fiscal consequence? When is the current contract up?
No idea about the red shirts.

[Tiz]

Collective bargaining has a pressing fiscal consequence to counties and cities who can't balance their budgets because of the wages, and benefits, that have been bargained for the collective mass.

Governor Walker's bill doesn't eliminate collective bargaining, but restricts it to wages.

[WashingtonBay]

What's up with all these legislators hiding out in hotels somewhere? Now there's congresspeople from two states hiding. I'm a little fuzzy on why, but evidently now Indiana democrats are hiding out of state somewhere...

It's catching... coming to a Holiday Inn near you.




It's the most bizarre behavior I've heard of yet, in politics.

[Remali]

It's an epidemic. LOL. I agree it is different, but I have to say I agree with much of it.... like the saying goes, the times they are a-changin'.....

I just watched the local News from Madison.... how they voted on that bill last night was really nasty.... a 17 second vote?!!
People are now wondering if the Republicans may have violated rules by doing that....
It was crazy....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/atlantic/20110225/cm_atlantic/wisconsinassemblypassesantiunionbillinsecondslongv ote7127

[Remali]

So, Governor Walker is owned by puppet masters, the Koch brothers. I would expect him to recognize his master's voice. Dang, I guess the doofus that taped Walker made Walker's case, instead of his own.

I wonder if the Koch brother he was impersonating will sue him?


Actually, it is Walker that may need to start worrying, from the sounds of this....

http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/did-scott-walker-violate-ethics-laws-in-koch-call/

[WashingtonBay]

And that's nothing but hot air...

[natisha]

Yeah, it's weird. I did notice that most of the protesters are teachers, they have the cushiest package. I have heard of no other public worker walking off the job.

I work for the Fed Gov. We have a Union but it is not mandatory to join or pay dues & there is no collective bargaining. Very few people pay the dues. So where does Obama (;)) get off saying what the States want is wrong when his employees don't have those things?

[natisha]

It's an epidemic. LOL. I agree it is different, but I have to say I agree with much of it.... like the saying goes, the times they are a-changin'.....

I just watched the local News from Madison.... how they voted on that bill last night was really nasty.... a 17 second vote?!!
People are now wondering if the Republicans may have violated rules by doing that....
It was crazy....

http://news.yahoo.com/s/atlantic/20110225/cm_atlantic/wisconsinassemblypassesantiunionbillinsecondslongv ote7127Actually they spent 60 hours in debate & finally voted at 1am after the Bill was read 3 times. It now goes before the Senate who isn't there.

[Remali]

The actual vote itself was a mere few seconds long.... you can watch it all on TV, it was just on....

[natisha]

The actual vote itself was a mere few seconds long.... you can watch it all on TV, it was just on....So how long does it take to say yay or nay?

[Remali]

Here is the story.... the video of it all was just on the News...

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_f9a6db08-4121-11e0-9afd-001cc4c002e0.html

" The Assembly session stretched a record-breaking 61 hours but ended with a harried vote in which Democrats were given just seconds to cast their ballots, prompting cries of "Shame! Shame!" at their Republican colleagues."

[natisha]

Here is the story.... the video of it all was just on the News...

http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_f9a6db08-4121-11e0-9afd-001cc4c002e0.html

" The Assembly session stretched a record-breaking 61 hours but ended with a harried vote in which Democrats were given just seconds to cast their ballots, prompting cries of "Shame! Shame!" at their Republican colleagues."How much time did the Republicans have?

[Tiz]

"Cries of shame, shame"? Good grief, they were screaming and waving their arms, and having a fit. Ridiculous considering that they could have drawn out the vote for days and the result would have been the same.

I'm loving those Communist red shirts though. The union screamers that showed up in New Jersey were sporting the same color. I guess they're coming out of the closet, at long last.

[natisha]

I don't know why some didn't get to vote, maybe they were holding out or something but even if they had they wouldn't have had enough votes to change the outcome, 51 to 45 at best.

[natisha]

Do you think the Prez is looking for comfortable shoes?

[Tiz]

I hope so. Maybe he can organize Wisconsin's and Indiana's AWOL Democrats into a nice little bull horn screaming march in Rockford. Show us how real grown ups govern.

[natisha]

I hope so. Maybe he can organize Wisconsin's and Indiana's AWOL Democrats into a nice little bull horn screaming march in Rockford. Show us how real grown ups govern.
YouTube - 2007: Barack Obama promised to "walk on that picket line" if workers are denied the right to bargain

[Fjords <3]

Now this fits into this whole "repair bill" somewhere, but I'm not sure. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, but today we found out that 35 of the teachers in our school district are getting cut. Then someone said that if the bill passes, they won't get cut. I'm pissed because they're cutting the entire music program (band and choir), all the shop/tech ed classes, some math teachers, english teachers... some of just about everything. Next year is my senior year, and there's going to be next to no classes for me to take. I'm pretty confused about the whole deal is, but whatever way that it ends up being that our teachers DON'T get cut, I'm on that side I guess. And it's happening all over the state, apparently. My business teacher said something like they have to cut jobs to save something like 15 billion.

[natisha]

Now this fits into this whole "repair bill" somewhere, but I'm not sure. Personally, I don't care one way or the other, but today we found out that 35 of the teachers in our school district are getting cut. Then someone said that if the bill passes, they won't get cut. I'm pissed because they're cutting the entire music program (band and choir), all the shop/tech ed classes, some math teachers, english teachers... some of just about everything. Next year is my senior year, and there's going to be next to no classes for me to take. I'm pretty confused about the whole deal is, but whatever way that it ends up being that our teachers DON'T get cut, I'm on that side I guess. And it's happening all over the state, apparently. My business teacher said something like they have to cut jobs to save something like 15 billion.They wouldn't need to cut any jobs if the hiding Dems would come back & vote. I don't know how they know 35 teachers are getting cut when no notices were sent out-yet.

[Fjords <3]

I don't know the whole story, but apparently a bunch of teachers recieved notices that they were being laid off next year. Not all are in the high school, but there's at least 10 in the HS, and the others are being cut in the other schools in the district I guess.

[Tiz]

I'm pissed because they're cutting the entire music program (band and choir), all the shop/tech ed classes, some math teachers, english teachers... some of just about everything.

It's been my experience that it will always be popular classes, and extracurricular activities like sports, that go on the chopping block first. Kind of like threatening to cut police, fire, and programs for the poor, when the state budget needs reined in. It's extortion, and it has been working for decades. Hopefully, someone, somewhere, will grow a pair one day, and call them out on it. Meanwhile, be advised. Maybe you could ask the school board if that's really all they can find to save the money.

[Remali]

They wouldn't need to cut any jobs if the hiding Dems would come back & vote. I don't know how they know 35 teachers are getting cut when no notices were sent out-yet.

Not true, Walker promised job cuts anyway. Notices HAVE been sent out.

[natisha]

Not true, Walker promised job cuts anyway. Notices HAVE been sent out.As far as I know the job cuts he talked about before the election were aimed at nonproductive positions, assistant to the assistant's assistant kind of positions.
If he did send out notices it is because the Dems. didn't show for work.
In some cases the jobs are cut to help balance the books but in the end the jobs never go away. I forgot the exact details, sorry.

[Remali]

What about Medicaid too? If he cuts that, what will thousands of people do for health care?

[natisha]

What about Medicaid too? If he cuts that, what will thousands of people do for health care?I'm not sure where you got that he is cutting Medicaid? I know he said he was going to look into fraud cases. So if you're not here illegally, not faking a disability or conning anyone I don't think you have to worry.
He did say that if there is any money left over in specific areas the money would be shifted over to the General Fund. Maybe that's what people are thinking is 'taking money away?'
I'm having a hard time finding the exact Bill to read. All I can find are little snippets, which can be read different ways. Can you or someone else find a copy of the actual Bill?

[Remali]

I had the link to the bill..... I'll see if I can find it.

I sure hope Medicaid is not on the chopping block, but I read and heard that it is (on the local News).

[natisha]

I had the link to the bill..... I'll see if I can find it.

I sure hope Medicaid is not on the chopping block, but I read and heard that it is (on the local News).If your local news is like mine they are very slanted, it seems to put the scare in people.

[Remali]

I also read about it too.... they are planning to cut Medicaid back by quite a lot.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/health_med_fit/vital_signs/article_979fd798-385c-11e0-b233-001cc4c03286.html

[Tiz]

I'm not sure where you got that he is cutting Medicaid? I know he said he was going to look into fraud cases. So if you're not here illegally, not faking a disability or conning anyone I don't think you have to worry.
He did say that if there is any money left over in specific areas the money would be shifted over to the General Fund. Maybe that's what people are thinking is 'taking money away?'
I'm having a hard time finding the exact Bill to read. All I can find are little snippets, which can be read different ways. Can you or someone else find a copy of the actual Bill?

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/11-1426_101.pdf

[mare]

Governments of all sizes don't have the money to keep up the programs they have funded for the last 40+ years. I understand that. People won't have the free medical through medicaid. Employees will lose their jobs. Roads won't be maintained at the levels we've gotten used to. Social security will not be there when I hoped it would. All my money gone to folks who got there first. The list goes on.

Nothing hard about seeing that. And nothing can change the facts. No money = no money.

[mare]

I hope every state and fiscal intermediary goes after fraud cases. I think fraudulant providers and beneficiaries have effectively bankrupted Medicare and Medicaid.

I think people who use the EDs of hospitals like their own convenient free clinics for runny noses and sore throats should be prosecuted as much as the podiatrist who was recently charged for removing 20 toenails from the same 3 toes!

[WashingtonBay]

I suspect all of the companies that advertise on TV "You don't have to do anything... we'll do all the paperwork for you!"

[natisha]

I hope every state and fiscal intermediary goes after fraud cases. I think fraudulant providers and beneficiaries have effectively bankrupted Medicare and Medicaid.

I think people who use the EDs of hospitals like their own convenient free clinics for runny noses and sore throats should be prosecuted as much as the podiatrist who was recently charged for removing 20 toenails from the same 3 toes!Man, those toenails grew back fast;)

[Remali]

It is pretty alarming the number of people who misuse a lot of the programs intended for low income people. It just makes it worse for the people who really need it, but apparently most agencies do not really do a thorough check on everyone.

[WashingtonBay]

but apparently most agencies do not really do a thorough check on everyone.

I agree waste and misuse is a big problem. But as someone who has worked in such an agency... how does an agency "check up" on anyone? Go home with them? Follow them around? Hire PI's? Sounds silly, I know, but agencies don't have a lot of choice but to take a client's word for it. They have no utility at their fingertips that can independently verify what a client says.

Which, to talk politics for a moment, is why charity is best when it's personal. Because people who know you, know the need, when it's needed, and you are less likely to cheat them. Those who know you most want you to actually succeed and will expect it of you. You will want to please them. The levels of assistance should be family first, friends, church, community. People don't mind helping, and feel good doing it when they know where it's going.

State and Federal programs will always be worse in their actual delivery. Unfortunately, few want to give to local neighbors and charity when they are already taxed for that purpose. Everyone's responsibility makes it no one's responsibility.

[natisha]

It is pretty alarming the number of people who misuse a lot of the programs intended for low income people. It just makes it worse for the people who really need it, but apparently most agencies do not really do a thorough check on everyone.That's for sure. I work with a lady who is a RN. She has a rental unit & when her son turned 18 he used the rental address & called for food stamps. Just one phone call got him the stamps. I asked her how he could do that & she said he's 18 with no job, he's got to eat. She didn't understand why she should be more responsible than the rest of us.
She also still gets a discount on her utilities from before she was a nurse. She said if no one checks up on it why should she volunteer to pay more? That's the kind of crap that brings programs down.

[Remali]

WB, all they have to do is have people fill out the form regarding their financial information, and back that up with recent paystubs and a bank statement, most agencies already require that. Apparently not all free medical clinics follow that closely enough tho. So, your agency does not require any of that information?

That's odd Natisha, that the woman can still get assistance like that..... in my county everyone has to update their financial information every few months or so, by sending in required paystubs, bank statements, etc.

[natisha]

I also read about it too.... they are planning to cut Medicaid back by quite a lot.

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/local/health_med_fit/vital_signs/article_979fd798-385c-11e0-b233-001cc4c03286.htmlThis part reminded me of the Czars. No big fuss about them changed anything.

"It undermines the constitutional balance of power between the executive and legislative branches by abrogating the law-writing function of the Legislature," Riemer notes.
Riemer argues the Medicaid provisions would establish dangerous legal precedent, asking "If this law allowing agency rules to trump statuatory language that's still on the books is valid" what would stop other agencies from doing the same?

[natisha]

WB, all they have to do is have people fill out the form regarding their financial information, and back that up with recent paystubs and a bank statement, most agencies already require that. Apparently not all free medical clinics follow that closely enough tho. So, your agency does not require any of that information?

That's odd Natisha, that the woman can still get assistance like that..... in my county everyone has to update their financial information every few months or so, by sending in required paystubs, bank statements, etc.Maybe she has by now but she was a RN way over a year when she showed me her electric bill.

[WashingtonBay]

WB, all they have to do is have people fill out the form regarding their financial information, and back that up with recent paystubs and a bank statement, most agencies already require that. Apparently not all free medical clinics follow that closely enough tho. So, your agency does not require any of that information?

Sure we asked for whatever they have. Those who are really poor and need help the most can't verify they're poor. Think about it for a minute. :) The homeless don't have filing cabinets. If they're not employed they don't have pay stubs. Checking accounts get overdrawn and are closed. So - your homeless client who has nothing really looks no different than the scammer who just doesn't bring records and says they don't have any.

[Remali]

True about the homeless, but what about the others who aren't homeless, they can be verified.

[natisha]

http://legis.wisconsin.gov/11-1426_101.pdfYou're the best 'fool' I know! ;) Thanks

[WashingtonBay]

True about the homeless, but what about the others who aren't homeless, they can be verified.

How, if they're not working, they still may not have a bank account. Those are luxuries.

So - yes, if they're working they can prove it (if they're organized enough to keep pay stubs and files, which isn't a life skill most of them have), but they'll probably just get less assistance then, they don't need it. If they say they aren't working or don't have anything, there is no paperwork that proves that.

You can't prove something in its absence.

[natisha]

How, if they're not working, they still may not have a bank account. Those are luxuries.

So - yes, if they're working they can prove it (if they're organized enough to keep pay stubs and files, which isn't a life skill most of them have), but they'll probably just get less assistance then, they don't need it. If they say they aren't working or don't have anything, there is no paperwork that proves that.

You can't prove something in its absence.Just wondering. How does a homeless person prove who they are? Do most have some sort of ID?

[WashingtonBay]

Just wondering. How does a homeless person prove who they are? Do most have some sort of ID?

Sometimes... if not a driver's license, hopefully a state ID. Usually expired.

There is an essay I've thought of writing, and someone's already put a lot of it in a book called "the high cost of being poor" that is eye-opening for those who have never been there, or worked in the field. It was eye opening for me, when I was new to it, having never given it much thought before working there.

One of the first things to go is the checking account. It will end up overdrawn, and that in itself begins a cycle of paying through the nose to get money. They have to cash their checks, be it paychecks or assistance checks, at those payday loan check cashing places (that's why there's a lot of them in bad neighborhoods) and they pay up to 20% sometimes to do that. Banks won't cash checks if you don't have an account. They don't have a choice.

[natisha]

Sometimes... if not a driver's license, hopefully a state ID. Usually expired.So if I said I was homeless what services would be available-in general? They don't hand out money do they?

[WashingtonBay]

You could apply for food stamps (the amount varies by local food cost here, about $250 a month for a single person) and perhaps General Assistance ($349 a month). It's slow to get through the process... you have to keep at it and keep showing up. The best defense against fraud is making it enough of a hassle that most with money won't bother for a few hundred bucks.

There's not a LOT out there for a single person. There's more for kids. If you had kids, then TANF. $440 a month for one, a little more for each additional.

I didn't work for the state, and I don't know exactly how rigorous their application process is. But I worked with the same clients, and I know they weren't exactly good at keeping records. It's one of the things we worked with them on. Applying for and keeping a file for them of their vital papers (ID cards, military records, birth certificates, ss cards) because you can't get a job without having the actual cards, and current. And the homeless don't have a secure place to keep them.

[Remali]

Around here Walmart will cash checks, but I don't know about other states. And, of course, getting to Walmart for homeless people can be a huge problem.

[natisha]

Around here Walmart will cash checks, but I don't know about other states. And, of course, getting to Walmart for homeless people can be a huge problem.If they are truly homeless where do they need a ride from?

They want to close the Capital at 5PM for cleaning but some won't leave.

[Remali]

A lot of homeless people stay at the shelters. Eau Claire has one, so I would imagine they'd be able to get a ride from there if possible.

[WashingtonBay]

A lot of homeless people stay at the shelters. Eau Claire has one, so I would imagine they'd be able to get a ride from there if possible.

Some of the time... they don't stay indefinitely at any one shelter, they move around. Shelters have rules, hours, requirements in order to stay. They can't be drunk or stoned and they have to get out early in the morning they can't just sleep. They 'hassle' ya and try to get you involve in programs and help. There's day shelters when the weather is too bad. Many have cars. Informal groups around here give out tents and sleeping bags. Most areas have other places, camps, tent cities, bridges, parking garages where there's no rules, no sermons, no lectures. Some will get paid and blow it on a motel, to clean up and sleep in a bed with privacy for a couple nights. Can't say I blame them. They have a routine they fall into... a group of friends and a route they take through the month.

People adapt. They learn what's out there. Even those working with them don't know what all the options are. Some are secret.

[Remali]

Some of the time... they don't stay indefinitely at any one shelter, they move around. Shelters have rules, hours, requirements in order to stay. They can't be drunk or stoned and they have to get out early in the morning they can't just sleep. They 'hassle' ya. There's day shelters when the weather is too bad. Many have cars. Informal groups around here give out tents and sleeping bags. Most areas have other places, camps, tent cities, bridges, parking garages. Some will get paid and blow it on a motel, to clean up and sleep in a bed with privacy for a couple nights. Can't say I blame them. They have a routine they fall into... a route and a group of friends they take through the month.

People adapt. They learn what's out there. Even those working with them don't know what all the options are.

Well, yes, of course. I wasn't indicating that they stay there 100% of the time. But the shelter here in Eau Claire lets them stay for quite some time, not all shelters are the same in every city or state.

[WashingtonBay]

I was editing that reply :o adding, re-wording it.

Shelters all vary. Some they can stay a week, some a month. Other types of shelter and transitional housing too... longer term, if they can get in it.

[Tiz]

Unions and antitrust laws.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704150604576166011983939364.html?m od=ITP_opinion_0

[Remali]

Apparently Walker wants all the kids to be as stupid as he is.... I heard some Repubs are even bailing out on him.

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/117192683.html

http://minnesota.cbslocal.com/2011/03/02/wis-schools-face-deep-cuts-under-walkers-budget/

[natisha]

Public schools have been sucking up huge amounts of money & turning out many kids who can't even read. I have friends that live in Milwaukee & have to use the MPS system. They don't want to, they would love to have school choice they can afford. Walker will allow money for charter schools. What is stupid about allowing kids who want to learn to go to a school where others want to learn too?
Maybe MPS will get better teachers in if they didn't have to live in Milwaukee? What is stupid about that?
Maybe his proposals will turn out kids who can do more than run a meth lab.
Again, this is no surprise. He ran on these issues.

To those surprised about what Walker is doing, stay tuned, there will be more, though nothing will be a surprise.

ETA: when most talk of cuts they mean, for example, they normally get an increase of say, 10% a year. When they only get a 5% increase they say they got a 5% cut.

[Tiz]

That's what Oregon does with it's budget too. Dishonest bastages.

Our public school system turns out a substandard product, to the tune of over $10,000 per student. So a classroom of 20 kids costs the taxpayers at least $200,000 each, and that does not include building repairs. Those are funded with separate taxes.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

They all do it that way, and it's utterly dishonest.

Time to dust off the old concept of "zero-base" budgeting.

[Remali]

They were talking on the News tonight about an area school that will no longer be able to have a nurse present at the school because of the budget cuts..... lots of these cuts are going to cause consequences, and not good ones either.

[natisha]

That's what Oregon does with it's budget too. Dishonest bastages.I think it's special wording to get people fired up. Bastages:p

How come no one is crying that I have to pay towards my health care & retirement? I'm a public employee too!! What about me??? Does Obama(;)) being my boss make the difference?

[Tiz]

You are being manipulated, Remali. Don't you think people are capable of saying no? If the nurse is what the manipulators propose to cut, then say no, find something else.

http://www.ereleases.com/prfuel/washington-monument-strategy/

My cut in earnings has had consequences too, and not good ones. Why should public employees be immune from consequences?

[natisha]

That's what Oregon does with it's budget too. Dishonest bastages.

Our public school system turns out a substandard product, to the tune of over $10,000 per student. So a classroom of 20 kids costs the taxpayers at least $200,000 each, and that does not include building repairs. Those are funded with separate taxes.They could go to a nice college for that. But it's all for the children.

[natisha]

They were talking on the News tonight about an area school that will no longer be able to have a nurse present at the school because of the budget cuts..... lots of these cuts are going to cause consequences, and not good ones either.Not all schools have a nurse. I think it's a waste anyway. A school nurse isn't really allowed to do anything, not in the scope of practice. Can't even give an aspirin. They keep records of immunizations but any computer could do that. They call when a kid is sick, anyone could do that.
The only thing I can think of that a nurse may do better than someone else is clean up puke without gagging.

[Remali]

http://www.kxan.com/dpps/news/national/midwest/wis-schools-face-deep-cuts-under-govs-budget-nt11-jgr_3735269

Some teachers are using money out of their own pockets already. It's no wonder the United States falls so far behind some other countries when it comes to education.

[HeavensEast]

I've attended multiple different schools in multiple different states and none of them had a school nurse.

[natisha]

http://www.kxan.com/dpps/news/national/midwest/wis-schools-face-deep-cuts-under-govs-budget-nt11-jgr_3735269

Some teachers are using money out of their own pockets already. It's no wonder the United States falls so far behind some other countries when it comes to education.So if they are already spending their own money what will be so different? Why not blame Doyle? Should my taxes get raised so a kid can have paint? Why not let the parents buy the paint? I see kids with $100 shoes, the latest fashions, dyed hair, new cars- parents seem to be able to buy those things but I should have to buy their kids paint!?

A good education doesn't start with the school.
There are countries where females are not allowed to go to school at all. Others where only a certain class of people can be educated. Others where 8th grade is as far as you you go.
The US doesn't fall behind anyone in available education. It may fall behind in people wanting to be educated though. All the money & paint in the world won't change that.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

They were talking on the News tonight about an area school that will no longer be able to have a nurse present at the school because of the budget cuts..... lots of these cuts are going to cause consequences, and not good ones either.

Hey... it's their own doing. They made their bed, let them sleep in it.

So much of those Trillions (Trillions!!!!) of so-called "stimulus" dollars were funneled straight to state governments specifically to let them keep spending money like drunken sailors... Instead of taking the last few years to tighten belts, as they should have, they were allowed (nay, encouraged) to keep spending as much as they could, as fast as they could.

Now the well is dry. Even a drunken sailor has to eventually deal with the hangover, and that hangover has arrived.

There. Is. No. More. Money.

The trough is running dry. It's time for the pigs to go on a diet.

Wisconsin, in fact, just got through in the last couple of years of some more "screw the rich" tax increases. "Make the rich pay their fair share" and such... well... how's that working out, huh?

They play like it's all about the kids. Well... sorry... the kids will get the same crappy education no matter how much money the pigs get at the trough. Because, mostly... nobody actually cares about how much the kids learn. The kids certainly don't care. The parents don't care (oh, they say they do, but do they really? What most of them want is a daytime babysitter and free lunches) and of course as has been made obvious by the last few weeks of news, the teachers especially don't care. All they care about is how much power the union goons have.

[HeavensEast]

The US doesn't fall behind anyone in available education. It may fall behind in people wanting to be educated though. All the money & paint in the world won't change that.
I think she means like the quality of the education.

[natisha]

I think she means like the quality of the education.You went to a small hick school. You seem to have fared well. Ok, your spanish teacher aside. You could have taken backseat 101 (that was a fun class, by the way) but you didn't & are now on your way to being a doctor. You desired an education.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...]The US doesn't fall behind anyone in available education. It may fall behind in people wanting to be educated though. All the money & paint in the world won't change that.

Can I get an AMEN! from the congregation...

For any kid that wants to learn, and parents that want their kids to learn... the very finest education in the world is available to them. We talk and talk and talk about the responsibility of the schools to teach... but what about the responsibility of the students to learn? To put in some effort?

The Seattle school district, for example, is a classic example of everything that is wrong with inner city schools. What they have are schools full of kids that don't care, who go home to parents that don't care, and it's all managed by teachers that don't care. It is most certainly not about money. The per-pupil cost of Seattle schools is about 150% of the tuition of any of the better private schools in Washington.

They could close all the Seattle schools and send them all to private school and they would save money.

It just ain't about money.

[HeavensEast]

You went to a small hick school. You seem to have fared well. Ok, your spanish teacher aside. You could have taken backseat 101 (that was a fun class, by the way) but you didn't & are now on your way to being a doctor. You desired an education.I'm not trying to disagree.
I did fare well, but my school gets little credit for that. I didn't go there for elementary or middle school, anyways.

[natisha]

I'm not trying to disagree.
I did fare well, but my school gets little credit for that. I didn't go there for elementary or middle school, anyways.That's my point exactly. Desire to learn, under any circumstance. And your school didn't even have an olympic sized pool.
I used you as an example because I don't know anyone else.:p

[mare]

Projects across the country are being cut. Some that I used often and really liked, like 4-H and the county extension offices.

A rancher I know put it well. He said, "The cow has gone dry. It's time we give her a rest, and if we take good care of her we may get to breed back."

In other words: We can finally admit we (our various levels of government) overspend and stop now and deal with the consequences now, or we can continue to ignore what's happening until we collapse and are in such a weakened state we are conquered.

In cow terms, the weakened cow gets eaten alive by dogs, coyotes, wolves, or mountain lions. For our country, there are some who would love to predate us, and they would only be able to if we are in a weakened state.

[Tiz]

And your school didn't even have an olympic sized pool.
:p


And no computer at every desk? Oh dear.

I see so many stories of our schools being used to indoctrinate kids into a socialist mindset, if I had a kid, they wouldn't go to public schools.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/h-s-principal-promotes-dems-progressive-propaganda-film-contest/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/socialist-mantra-hidden-in-grade-school-chants/

[natisha]

And no computer at every desk? Oh dear.

I see so many stories of our schools being used to indoctrinate kids into a socialist mindset, if I had a kid, they wouldn't go to public schools.

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/h-s-principal-promotes-dems-progressive-propaganda-film-contest/

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/socialist-mantra-hidden-in-grade-school-chants/And wouldn't you be glad for financial help to be able to make that choice?
If they closed the Public schools, which will never happen but if, those teachers would be needed at the private schools so would still have jobs. Only the new jobs would have set standards for education that would be enforced. That would weed out the bad teachers. Not stupid at all.

HE tell me stories of how she has to do certain projects in college & she writes papers to please the teacher..for a grade. She doesn't like to do it but she must. So she is learning to BS. I agree she has to play the game because she has bigger goals in mind. This is one time when being honest would hurt her. She joined a College Republican group so she won't get sucked into something she doesn't believe in. I'm proud of her.

[cowgirlup@idaho]

My oldest is 30yrs :rolleyes: and there was never a nurse in the building when any child of mine was in school. My bachelors is in education, we were told in college that we would be spending our own money for extra classroom supplies (1980's) by our professors. When I entered into the school system all of this was true. So none of this is new, just not common knowledge. It became obvious to me that student interest and advancement was not #1 on a school district's list. PR means everything. Although I continued to work within various school districts, and still work inside public school classrooms (in a different capacity) I did not pursue a teaching career.

The teachers here in Idaho, at least in my community, are scared of losing their 'union' rights now too. Our state ed admin, whose name is "Luna" :rolleyes: , wants to cut 700 teaching positions and increase student/teacher ratio and give students a laptop to replace a teacher! That's how he thinks the budget should be cut. I am on Wisconsin's governors' side.

Unions were a good thing for the people when they started. Now they are just the new Mafia.

[Tiz]

They'll adjust to their new reality, just as private sector citizens do. In the meantime, I hope someone with less self interest, and more common sense will take Luna's job.

[natisha]

1 hour countdown for Dems to get back or warrants for arrest go out. Not sure the details on that one though. This is getting good.

[Tiz]

I wonder what they will be arrested for?

[Remali]

I've been out running errands all day, so I'm not up to date on the latest...... so had not heard of arrest warrants going out, what are the charges? Hmmm.... It sure is getting interesting, like you say....

As for the U.S. students lagging behind in education, I dunno, it has been something I keep hearing.... just one example (link below), but I've heard it repeatedly on the News and on the radio and etc.

http://articles.cnn.com/2009-08-25/us/students.science.math_1_math-and-science-fourth-and-eighth-graders-math-scores?_s=PM:US

[Tiz]

So, I guess that teachers having good wages, paid vacations galore, very generous and free retirement benefits, along with Cadillac health plans for next to nothing, didn't impact how students performed?

In a common sense world, results like that would indicate pink slips all around. In a public employee union world, students lag behind, all teachers keep their jobs, and whine about not getting more for what they do.

[Remali]

Heard on the News that they can't arrest senators, but I missed the last part of it.... not sure what the deal is right now on that one.... Amybe it has something to do with whether or not they are in WI.

I dunno Tiz, the teachers did agree to cuts and paying for their benefits.

[Tiz]

Around 5% of their retirement savings and 12% of their health insurance premiums. I'm self employed, and believe me, I have a way, way, way different perspective on those concessions than you do, Remali.

I heard Wisconsin's Lt. Governor give an example of the type of perks that have been collectively bargained for in your state. She said that a public employee could call in sick, get paid sick time, and go work in a different department, or area, and get paid there too, on the same day.

Expensive nonsense, and taxpayers are waking up to it.

[Tiz]

Contempt of Congress is the charge.

[Remali]

Thanks, OK, Contempt of Congress, I hadn't heard about that yet.... just had the local News on about a half hour ago, but they didn't mention it. I haven't paid much attention to the News today, I got home kinda late this afternoon.

There is so much out there being talked about over the budget cuts, it's getting difficult to sort thru all of it. :huh:

[natisha]

Around 5% of their retirement savings and 12% of their health insurance premiums. I'm self employed, and believe me, I have a way, way, way different perspective on those concessions than you do, Remali.

I heard Wisconsin's Lt. Governor give an example of the type of perks that have been collectively bargained for in your state. She said that a public employee could call in sick, get paid sick time, and go work in a different department, or area, and get paid there too, on the same day.

Expensive nonsense, and taxpayers are waking up to it.I'll give you a private sector example. I called in sick to my job at a hospital- I was really sick. Later that night I got a call that my live-in BF got hit by a deer while riding his motorcycle. I was his contact person. I went to the ER as one would & got a 3 day suspension for 'lying.' I wasn't at a protest rally causing $3 million in damages to the Capitol.

Oh, I found out why some are saying the State is not broke. We have money available in the form of raising taxes &/or getting more loans.

[natisha]

Heard on the News that they can't arrest senators, but I missed the last part of it.... not sure what the deal is right now on that one.... Amybe it has something to do with whether or not they are in WI.

I dunno Tiz, the teachers did agree to cuts and paying for their benefits.Right Remali, this is not just about that. It's Union power & money grabbing, our tax payer money.

[natisha]

Thanks, OK, Contempt of Congress, I hadn't heard about that yet.... just had the local News on about a half hour ago, but they didn't mention it. I haven't paid much attention to the News today, I got home kinda late this afternoon.

There is so much out there being talked about over the budget cuts, it's getting difficult to sort thru all of it. :huh:It's easy-cut budgets or cut jobs, many jobs. Cut jobs & there will be less money for services.

[Remali]

I heard some job layoff announcements may go out tomorrow. Bummer.

[natisha]

I heard some job layoff announcements may go out tomorrow. Bummer.Yes, but they had 3 weeks to avoid that happening. The 14 hold outs aren't losing their jobs or getting a pay cut. Did they really care about the people? I know teachers who didn't want to go along with this but most are afraid to speak up.

Those Unions should have to pay to fix the Capitol. Pigs.

[Remali]

From what I have heard those layoffs would have happened anyway.....

[natisha]

From what I have heard those layoffs would have happened anyway.....No, not if there had been the vote. There would have been enough to pay what was due in June so no lay offs would have been needed. That's what Walker said & so far he seems to be a man of his word.

Now the missing Dems. no longer get direct deposit for their checks & soon they will be charged $100/day for not showing up.

[Remali]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-brandzel/the-unbreakable-culture-of-occupied-capitol_b_829515.html

[natisha]

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/ben-brandzel/the-unbreakable-culture-of-occupied-capitol_b_829515.htmlOh my, there is so much crap in that article I don't know where to start!
Locked out, starved inside-really, they were only letting in the same number that left.
Respectful?- explain million in damages
Non-violent? - Police had to intervene when it was getting violent towards one of the Congressman trying to get in the building.
I'm to tired to go on except if Walker is afraid of anything it's the smells of the unwashed masses. Pigs.

Pink slips are going out, 1500 if the hide-outs don't come back. So even the teachers that don't agree with this or don't want to lose their jobs could be on the chopping block. The Dems are proving nothing except that Union pockets are more important anything else. Other States are following suit too.

[Tiz]

The Huffington Post?

Every time I saw the chaos in the Wisconsin capital building, I thought of the people who actually had jobs to do there. How they coped with all the yelling, noise makers and general disrespect of their space, I don't know.

http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/117340918.html