Legal vs Illegal or Right vs Wrong?

[natisha]

The Westboro Baptist Church holds protests at the funerals of fallen soldiers. While they may have a legal right to do so I think it is wrong. They don't do this only for gay soldiers but any soldier. What kind of a Church does such things?

Westboro Baptist Protests Three Owensboro Churches


Members of the Westboro Baptist Church protested at three Owensboro churches on Sunday. The group is known for staging demonstrations at military funerals.

Members of the controversial church began their protests Sunday morning at Owensboro Christian Church. It is one of the group's first demonstrations since the Supreme Court ruled last week their protests were protected by the first amendment.

Margie Phelps, attorney for the Westboro Church, spoke out about that decision on FOX News Sunday.

FOX News anchor Chris Wallace asked, "Is the ruling by the Supreme Court this week God's will?"

Phelps said, "Of course it was, or it wouldn't have happened. He holds the hearts of the team in his hand. He put us out on the battlefield. He told us to go out and tell the nation that your soldiers are dying for your sins and you've got to stop sinning if you want that mayhem to end. He would not have done that and then left us to the devices of mankind, unable to complete that good work. So, of course, it's his good will. And we're very thankful and we praise his name for it."

The Topeka, Kansas based church claims the death of soldiers are God's punishment for America's acceptance of homosexuality.

"They teach nothing but hate and they use religion for all the wrong reasons," said Harley Bowlin.

Harley Bowlin was one of several people to show up and counter protest against the Westboro Baptist Church. While he doesn't agree with the group's message the counter protesters do support the Supreme Court's decision.

Bowlin says, "I think its a really good thing that they're upholding the rights that we have, but I also think that some of their signs are very offensive and there should be limits on it,."

"They do have every right to protest, but we also have every right to protest against them," said Waylon Burch, a counter-protester.

Not everyone agreed with the court's decision.

"We can't even say the Lord's name or the prayer in school for kids, yet we let these people get away with stuff like this. It doesn't make sense," said Wallace Smith, a member of Owensboro Christian Church.

The next stop for Westboro Baptist was Blessed Mother Catholic Church. Shortly after arriving, the group started shouting at the church and referencing the young man who committed suicide in the church's parking lot last month.

A protester shouted, "That trauma that you brought to that young man..you enable that every day!!

Police were on hand to keep the crowd under control and to make sure no fights broke out. Sydney Simpson, a counter protester, says she didn't come for a fight.

"I'm out here trying to spread as much love as they're spreading hate, because love is way more important than hate," said Simpson.

Soon the protest moved to Bellevue Baptist Church where things got a little more intense. The protesters began singing popular songs by Lady Gaga and Katy Perry but changing the words to reflect their message. The counter protesters responded by singing the National Anthem.

The group eventually ended their protest, packed up their signs and headed to Louisville for their next demonstration.

The protests did not affect services at any of the churches.

Police say they were prepared for the protesters and had plenty of officers at each church in case things got out of hand.

[natisha]

Supreme Court upholds Westboro church's military funeral protests




More on this Story


Story | Westboro protest ruling has military families, advocates feeling betrayed (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2011/03/02/109733/military-families-advocates-feel.html)
Story | Westboro Baptist's funeral protests put free speech to test (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2010/10/01/101475/churchs-military-funeral-protests.html)
Story | Kagan's conflicts will keep her from ruling on many cases (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2010/10/01/101482/kagan-wont-help-supreme-court.html)
Story | On first day, Kagan fills chamber with queries, comments (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2010/10/04/101574/on-first-day-kagan-fills-chamber.html)
Story | Snyder v. Phelps will be First Amendment test for Supreme Court (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2010/10/06/101653/snyder-v-phelps-will-be-first.html)
Story | Westboro's funeral protest clearly troubles Supreme Court (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2010/10/06/101689/supreme-court-divided-about-protecting.html)
Story | Westboro's attorney: In court, not just another protester (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2010/10/06/101701/westboro-attorney-unflappable.html)
Story | If Kagan joins court, she's likely to compromise, soothe tensions (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2010/05/10/93846/if-kagan-joins-court-shes-likely.html)
Story | Conservative group doesn't sway Scalia in ballot signature case (http://www.baywindfarm.com/2010/04/28/93054/supreme-court-skeptical-on-hiding.html)
PDF | Westboro Baptist Church (http://media.mcclatchydc.com/smedia/2011/03/02/15/Westboro.source.prod_affiliate.91.pdf)
On the Web | More McClatchy stories from around the nation (http://www.mcclatchydc.com/nation)

By Michael Doyle | McClatchy Newspapers

WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court on Wednesday upheld the right of Westboro Baptist Church to protest at military funerals with its virulent anti-gay message, which has provoked outrage across the country and along the political spectrum.
In a free-speech ruling that challenges popular opinion and could reopen debate, the court ruled that the First Amendment protects even deliberately obnoxious funeral protests such as the church's infamous "God hates fags" message.
"Given that Westboro's speech was at a public place on a matter of public concern, that speech is entitled to special protection under the First Amendment," Chief Justice John Roberts Jr. wrote for the majority.
The court's 8-1 decision in Snyder v. Phelps shields the Topeka, Kan.-based Westboro church from being sued for intentional infliction of emotional distress despite speech that Roberts called "hurtful." The ruling didn't reverse the myriad funeral-protest restrictions that states have imposed, and it still permits governments to reasonably regulate the time, place and manner of public speech.
Still, Westboro attorney and church member Margie J. Phelps said Wednesday that the ruling would embolden challenges to funeral protest restrictions. Incited by the church's picketing, more than 40 states — including Kansas, California, Florida, Georgia, Kentucky, North Carolina, Texas and Washington — have enacted such laws.
Kansas, for instance, prohibits any "public demonstration" within 150 feet of the entrance to a funeral service, while Florida prohibits disturbing military funerals specifically.
"All of those are ill-designed and completely unconstitutional," Phelps said in a telephone interview. "There's going to be all sorts of appealing."
After first taking time to "thank God and praise his reign," Phelps said she wasn't surprised by the court's decision, although she voiced particular satisfaction in the strength of Roberts' majority opinion.
Few elected officials would have been likely to reach the same opinion.
Forty-two senators, including the respective leaders of the Democrats and Republicans, as well as the attorneys general in 48 states, had urged the court to oppose the church. The politically potent American Legion and Veterans of Foreign War likewise had sought to crimp the protests, with VFW National Commander Richard L. Eubank saying Wednesday that he was "greatly disappointed" with the ruling.
"Westboro's funeral picketing is certainly hurtful and its contribution to public discourse may be negligible," Roberts acknowledged in his 15-page majority opinion. "But ... speech cannot be restricted simply because it is upsetting or arouses contempt."
Justice Samuel Alito dissented, saying free speech shouldn't be "a license for the vicious verbal assault that occurred in this case."

In 2007, a Pennsylvania jury had slapped Westboro with a $10.9 million judgment for its demonstration at the March 2006 funeral of Marine Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder. Snyder died March 3, 2006, in Iraq's Anbar province.
The church members didn't know Snyder or his father, Albert, but seven of them traveled from Kansas to Maryland to demonstrate. They stood outside the Roman Catholic church where the services were held, holding signs with messages such as "Thank God for Dead Soldiers," "God Hates Fags" and "You're Going to Hell." One sign depicted two men engaged in anal intercourse.
Albert Snyder didn't see the signs until a television news account later that night. He also found a church-penned "epic" on the Internet that denounced his son. During the subsequent trial, he testified tearfully that Westboro's protest signs had tortured him and "tarnished the memory of my son's last hour on earth."
Snyder and his attorneys decried the ruling Wednesday afternoon, with attorney Craig Trebilcock saying that "states and even Congress" should get busy enacting legislation to protect military funerals.
We'll "Such laws may lessen the harm these people from Kansas inflict on those who simply want to bury their children with dignity," Trebilcock said.
Westboro Baptist Church members, who largely belong to the extended Phelps family, maintain that the 9/11 terrorist attacks and what followed reflect God's wrath on the United States. They also believe that God led the nation into wars as further punishment, and that the soldiers are dying because of America's sins.
Although the church's protest targeted a funeral, the scene of a family's private grief, the court noted that the church's picket signs "plainly (related) to broad issues of interest to society at large." The picketing itself was conducted under police supervision 1,000 feet away from the church.
"Westboro believes that America is flawed," Roberts wrote. "Many Americans might feel the same about Westboro ... (but) we cannot react to (Snyder's) pain by punishing the speaker."
David Rocah, a staff attorney with the Maryland office of the American Civil Liberties Union, predicted that the opinion would have little bearing on state laws. Instead, he said, the ruling's importance is in protecting provocative and unpopular speakers from lawsuits based on alleged infliction of emotional distress.



Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2011/03/02/109692/supreme-court-upholds-churchs.html#ixzz1G0Db4QJH

[vicklynn]

I think messing with any funeral is wrong. Soldiers, civilians, and even criminals. Why?
While the funeral is to honor the death of the person, the funeral is also for the family members, and they have a right to morn.
Be pissed elsewhere.

[mare]

The Supreme Court was right in its' decision. While I may hate what the Westboro bunch says, I am thankful I live in a country where they can say it.

Phelps is a disbarred lawyer and cult leader, IMO. The followers help support themselves and him by provoking attacks on themselves and then suing. Wyoming and Arizona have laws the prevent funeral protesters (and what other group beside Westboro does that) have to stay 100 yards from anything connected to the funeral. That's a football field length. Pretty funny.

[Tiz]

The Constitution is bedrock, even when it protects people we disagree with.

[natisha]

The Constitution is bedrock, even when it protects people we disagree with.Yes, I agree it should be legal to do but I think it is also morally wrong.
It makes me wonder what causes those people to have such hate & lack of empathy for others while claiming to be a Church? How can someone be convinced of such a thing? How do you find so many people of like sick minds?

[WashingtonBay]

I'm really surprised they haven't been shot at yet. Or at least pummeled badly by one of the counter-groups that usually show up to block them.

[WashingtonBay]

Yes, I agree it should be legal to do but I think it is also morally wrong.
It makes me wonder what causes those people to have such hate & lack of empathy for others while claiming to be a Church? How can someone be convinced of such a thing? How do you find so many people of like sick minds?

There's not many. I think the Phelps family is the 'bulk' of the Westboro congregation. I saw even their attorney is a "Phelps".

[gaited07]

I think messing with any funeral is wrong. Soldiers, civilians, and even criminals. Why?
While the funeral is to honor the death of the person, the funeral is also for the family members, and they have a right to morn.
Be pissed elsewhere.

I'm with you vicklynn except I don't believe these idiots need to protest against any of our military staff who put their lives on hold and jeopardy in order to protect us and those damn idiots who are making life yet more difficult for the surviving family.
If they want to "protest" to make a point, take it to the whitehouse and camp out there.

[natisha]

There's not many. I think the Phelps family is the 'bulk' of the Westboro congregation. I saw even their attorney is a "Phelps".So they breed their own.
I didn't know about the counter groups.

[miatapony]

im sorry but if they are ever at someone i know they will need close friends.. any funeral is someones family and not a spectical.. but if it right or wrong it is wrong.....

[outriding01]

I was involved in a counter protest against the WBC once. They're absolutely insane. But I too appreciate that I live in a country that can so solidly protect the rights of all. I just wonder about the rights of the deceased's family and friends to mourn in peace....

[Tatesgram]

So what is the difference in what they do and hate speech?

According to Wikipedia:
Hate speech is, outside the law, any communication that disparages a person or a group on the basis of some characteristic such as race or sexual orientation.

And:

Legal aspects in the United States and elsewhere

In the United States (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/United_States), government is broadly forbidden by the First Amendment (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution) to the Constitution (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/United_States_Constitution) from restricting speech. Jurists (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/Jurist) generally understand this to mean that the government cannot regulate the content of speech, but that it can sanction the harmful effects of speech through laws against slander (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/Slander) and libel (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/Libel).
Indeed, the term "hate speech" and its surrounding discussion (whether and to what extent speech should should be regulated) is something restricted to American legal discourse. For example, the German constitution (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/Grundgesetz) is subtly more restrictive, guaranteeing 'freedom of voicing ones opinion' and elsewhere restricts its misuse against the public peace. The German Criminal Code (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/Criminal_Code) specifically forbids inciting hatred against ethnic groups.
Since such laws often apply only to the victimization (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/Victimization) of specific individuals, some argue that hate speech must be regulated to protect members of groups. Others argue that hate speech limits the free development of political discourse and ought to be regulated, but by voluntaristic (http://www.baywindfarm.com/definition/Volunteer) communities and not by the state. Still others claim that it is not possible to legislate a boundary between legitimate controversial speech and hate speech in such a way which is just to those with controversial political or social views.

More information here:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Hate_speech

I think there is a fine line here and the court could have gone either way.

We just had our bi-yearly "harassment" meeting. You can be sued for behavior that offends others, even if there was no offense intended, or by creating a hostile environment. What could be more hostile than what these wackjobs are doing?

And though I defend our freedom of speech, I do believe that states have the right to limit access to these weirdos at funerals if only by distance.

My son and some of his friends went to a funeral to be counter protesters, but the Westboro bunch never showed.

[Buckpoco]

I saw one of their people on TV...very hateful people, and nothing Christlike and loving in them...ugh.

[Remali]

From what I've seen of them on TV they don't behave like Christians, more like a wack-job cult. I'm kind of surprised more hasn't been done about them, at the very least making them stay a certain distance away from military funerals (a long distance away).

[natisha]

I'm wondering if they need a right to assemble permit or something like that?

[WashingtonBay]

They usually get them.


I'm glad to see that, more times than not, counter-groups show up and stand in front, blocking the view of these people. The "angels" are amusing, with big wings that block the offensive signs.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2011/03/04/PH2011030406337.jpg


And of course, The "Hell's Angels" and other biker groups often show up as well.

It's those guys I'm surprised haven't pummeled the twerps. I've never heard of an incident, if there's been one.

[natisha]

They usually get them.


I'm glad to see that, more times than not, counter-groups show up and stand in front, blocking the view of these people. The "angels" are amusing, with big wings that block the offensive signs.

http://media3.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/photo/2011/03/04/PH2011030406337.jpg


And of course, The "Hell's Angels" and other biker groups often show up as well.

It's those guys I'm surprised haven't pummeled the twerps. I've never heard of an incident, if there's been one.Awesome:)

[Vegashorselady]

Legally, they have the right to protest, but morally, I find the manner in which they chose to do it reprehensible. Who do they think they are to judge others like that, God?

Personally, I'm glad that none of the counter protesters have resorted to violence, it would be a shame to see them sink to that level, it is amazing it hasn't happened yet though.

[natisha]

Legally, they have the right to protest, but morally, I find the manner in which they chose to do it reprehensible. Who do they think they are to judge others like that, God?

Personally, I'm glad that none of the counter protesters have resorted to violence, it would be a shame to see them sink to that level, it is amazing it hasn't happened yet though.Apparently they believe they are messengers of God, or use Him as an excuse to be rotten

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I've been aware of these vile parasites for years. The WBC is pretty much just the Phelps family, plus of few of their parasite friends. They've made a good living by filing lawsuits against people that they have provoked into assaulting them. It's sorta the family business.

It should also be pointed out that the Phelps bunch are not affiliated with any recognized Christian church or denomination, and they are most certainly not aligned with the right wing. They are committed leftists. Fred Phelps used to work on Al Gore's campaign staff (I forget what capacity) years ago when he was a Congressman.

I think the better answer is to simply remove any penalties for aggravated assault for anyone that is provoked by these clowns. Sure, they should have the freedom to say what they want. The family of a fallen soldier should also have the freedom to beat the stupid out of them. With clubs.

The bikers that show up at funerals to block the Phelps parasites are called the "Patriot Guard Riders" and there are thousands of them around the country. They go to funerals when requested by the families and use their bikes to block the Phelps from access to the area near the funeral. These guys and gals are heroes, IMHO. http://www.patriotguard.org/

Someday, I'm sure the Phelps' will mess with the wrong guy.

[Vegashorselady]

Yes, apparently, they missed all the parts in the bible about forgiveness, compassion and loving thy brother.

It's very sad that grieving families are being harassed in this way.

[vicklynn]

I'm with you vicklynn except I don't believe these idiots need to protest against any of our military staff who put their lives on hold and jeopardy in order to protect us and those damn idiots who are making life yet more difficult for the surviving family.
If they want to "protest" to make a point, take it to the whitehouse and camp out there.
Yup, thats being pissed elsewhere.

[Buckpoco]

Amen to the bikers!

[gabhainn]

there has been one attempt by wbc here, it was in Pasadena, a refinery town. It didnt go so well for the Phelpsers. It never got out of control, never got violent and only Fred's followers got loud. But when 4000 yes, 4000 refinery workers in pickups, jeeps, and on harley's mobilized, they basically shut down traffic in Pasadena well out from the funeral home. WBC just couldnt get through...Kevin

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Awesome.

But I still think that someday they're going to mess with the wrong guy. Or... the wrong guy's family.

I'll be clear here, for the FBI dudes reading my posts, that I don't in any way condone violence.

But someday.... there will be a funeral for many Phelps' at the same time. That's just how this stuff happens.

It will be important that this funeral is attended by thousands of people that have all recently consumed a lot of water. and/or beer. Lots. Wherever makes for very full bladders.

The Phelps family plot will serve a useful purpose long after they are gone. Somebody should engrave on their stone: "You gotta go somewhere"....

[gabhainn]

But I still think that someday they're going to mess with the wrong guy. Or... the wrong guy's family. "....
I agree, and to be wholly honest I am suprised that it hasnt happened yet.....Kevin

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I agree, and to be wholly honest I am suprised that it hasnt happened yet.....Kevin

I can't wait. They're going to need a french drain around that family plot to keep the ground from getting spongy.

[natisha]

I can't wait. They're going to need a french drain around that family plot to keep the ground from getting spongy.I'll video the event.

[Tiz]

There isn't a thing that could be done to them on earth that will match what they will endure in eternity. I'll leave them to that.

And now that their ambition is known, they aren't worth even a second of additional thought. They no longer exist.