Major earthquake in Japan

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Reported as an 8.9 Magnitude quake, offshore of Honshu. A Tsunami was generated and massive damage is being reported all through Tokyo and other points around Honshu.

A Tsunami warning has been issued for the Pacific, including Hawaii.

---------------

This is really bad, folks... this was huge. Once the Tsunami passes Hawaii we'll know what Alaska and the west coast can expect. But an 8.9 is a catastrophic quake. The news in the morning for Tokyo and environs will be bad.

USGS info here: http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/recenteqsww/Maps/10/140_40.php

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Tsunami warning is widened now for the whole west coast of the U.S., CA, OR, WA, AK and BC.

[WashingtonBay]

Huh - had gone to bed early (just sleep-walking now). Wow... that's a big one. I guess I'll go turn on the TV and see what's happening.

[Tiz]

News is still sorting out. 5th largest quake in world history?

I haven't heard about the tsunami's progress yet.

[WashingtonBay]

Yeah - I watched for awhile in the night, and I'm just waking up now.... looks like they're still showing much the same footage. Showing a lot of ??? not much happening in Hawaii ?? and it's expected to hit here around 7:30? Some Aberdeen & coastal area schools closed, some running 2 hours late.

[miatapony]

OMG i have Friends still in Toyoko and Misawa and Yokota... please pass thoughts to them and thier famileis..

[grandmadeb]

According to the news, a nuclear power plant"s cooling system has failed and people living in that area are being evacuated. The quake and tsunami look like they both brought severe damage in Japan.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

According to the news, the tsunami was about 6 or 7 feet when it hit Hawaii. It's expected to hit OR/WA around 8:30am local time. I haven't seen any reports of damage from HI.

[WashingtonBay]

I think they're downplaying any effect on our coast... I don't think the wave left the beach in Hawaii.

Japan should be a story of great tests and hopefully some successes... I don't think anyone has spent as much engineering and money on earthquake-ready buildings as they have. Interesting results will be learned.

RD... I bet some on your co's staff are going to be itching to go over there?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Yah... I suppose we already have people in the air.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Reports now of a nuclear power plant in Japan that has lost coolant water service. Nearby residents told to evacuate the area. Yikes.

Some of the footage coming in from Japan is just heartstopping stuff.

[miatapony]

This is heart stoping ... i have heard from some of my friends but im still waiting on some...now the NPP are AH ... stressfull.

[WashingtonBay]

I really hope there are some documentaries done on how the really elaborate earthquake damping systems they've got, worked. I think it's really interesting.

[shewasmyshadow]

Wow. Amazing stuff. I am going to have to catch the news. I hope that all the work that went into the earthquake ready buildings was not in vain. I would love to see a documentary put together on it.

[offgridgirl]

Not much happen here on the west coast of Vancouver IS so far....the video is shocking. I was up late last night and caught it on the news....:eek:

[Tiz]

Horrifying video of the tsunami. Miata, I hope you've heard from your friends by now. I know people were urged to call their families here ASAP.

[Tiz]

It's daylight now, and the devastation may be worse than the Indonesian tsunami of a few years ago. Unbelievable video.:(

[Pinky]

Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant is reporting that levels inside one of the reactors is 1000 times its normal level due to a complete cooling system failure. Pressure inside the reactor is also 1.5 times normal levels. All residents (45,000 of them) within 10km have been evacuated, and they're thinking of releasing some of the built-up radioactive gas.

This is scary :(.

EDIT: And now, the Tokyo Electric Power Company has said the cooling systems of three reactors at a SECOND nuclear power plant, Fukushima-Daini, are malfunctioning, according to the Kyodo news agency. The plant is 11km (7 miles) to the south of Fukushima-Daiichi, where the cooling system one of its reactors is not working and pressure is rising.

[miatapony]

Horrifying video of the tsunami. Miata, I hope you've heard from your friends by now. I know people were urged to call their families here ASAP.


I have heard from one friend ....

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Fukushima-Daiichi nuclear plant [...].

I read somewhere today that these plants have a "last ditch" cooling option that they can use as a last resort. I don't know what that is, but I got the feeling that whatever it is must cause some damage to the reactor that's either expensive or impossible to fix.

[WashingtonBay]

This is remarkable footage.

Rather pointless commentary, but incomprehensible footage.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/03/11/nat.nhk.japan.sendai.tsunami.nhk

[natisha]

Unbelievably horrible.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

This is remarkable footage.

Rather pointless commentary, but incomprehensible footage.

http://www.cnn.com/video/?/video/world/2011/03/11/nat.nhk.japan.sendai.tsunami.nhk

It really is so surreal. Here is a massive wave inundating mile after mile of land... sweeping away whole towns... obliterating farm after farm... and the flotsam atop the wave is freakin' ON FIRE. Fire? Really?

Good Lord, what a mess.

A report now has the Pacific Tsunami Warning Center upgrading this quake to a 9.1, vice an 8.9 (from the USGS). Different agencies sometimes rate them differently... but I think it's fair to say that this was a mother of a quake. At 9.1 it would tie for the number 3 spot in world quakes. There was a 9.6 in Chile in (I forget when...) then the 9.2 in Prince William Sound in AK in 1964, then the 9.1 in Sumatra recently, and this one.

[miatapony]

well i have heard they have even brought in coolant for the reactors.. but it didn't work so I'm not sure what else the last ditch effort can or will be ...

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

well i have heard they have even brought in coolant for the reactors.. but it didn't work so I'm not sure what else the last ditch effort can or will be ...

I saw a story like that too, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. The "coolant" in question for nuke plants is just water. It's not like they use Prestone in those things. The problem isn't getting water, it's electrical power to run the pumps to keep it flowing. They have battery backup, but that's only designed to work for several hours. They have generator backup, but apparently the generators are damaged. You'd think that additional generators could be helo'd in... but I haven't heard anything about that. <P>

What I don't understand is that there's been plenty of time to scram these reactors (emergency shut-down).

[WashingtonBay]

I saw a story like that too, but it doesn't make a lot of sense. The "coolant" in question for nuke plants is just water. It's not like they use Prestone in those things. The problem isn't getting water, it's electrical power to run the pumps to keep it flowing. They have battery backup, but that's only designed to work for several hours. They have generator backup, but apparently the generators are damaged. You'd think that additional generators could be helo'd in... but I haven't heard anything about that. <P>

What I don't understand is that there's been plenty of time to scram these reactors (emergency shut-down).

I thought they did shut them down. But they're still hot.

(Didn't stay at a Holiday Inn last night)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I have a hunch that there's a lot of hype going on around these reactors, spurred mainly by some strong anti-nuclear groups. Japan has some of the best engineered nuclear power facilities in the world. I just think a lot of this concern is overblown. I hope I'm right about that.

[miatapony]

I have a hunch that there's a lot of hype going on around these reactors, spurred mainly by some strong anti-nuclear groups. Japan has some of the best engineered nuclear power facilities in the world. I just think a lot of this concern is overblown. I hope I'm right about that.


If you want the honest truth i HOPE you are right.

[WashingtonBay]

I have a hunch that there's a lot of hype going on around these reactors, spurred mainly by some strong anti-nuclear groups. Japan has some of the best engineered nuclear power facilities in the world. I just think a lot of this concern is overblown. I hope I'm right about that.

Now, the media would never overblow or hype something! :huh:

[Pinky]

Well, Fukushima-Daiichi has had an explosion, but they're saying that it was probably caused by hydrogen gas. However, people have said that they're detecting iodine and radioactive caesium outside the plant; so who knows. Evacuation zones around both plants have been extended to 20km. This link (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12307698) (BBC) has a live news feed and a live text feed too.

I really, really hope that RD is right. Nuclear power doesn't need something like this happening because it gives the people opposing it more ammunition.

YouTube - Japan: Explosion at Fukushima-Daiichi N-plant
That was a fairly sizeable explosion... (fast forward to 2:23 to see it)

[WashingtonBay]

It really is so surreal. Here is a massive wave inundating mile after mile of land... sweeping away whole towns... obliterating farm after farm... and the flotsam atop the wave is freakin' ON FIRE. Fire? Really?

Good Lord, what a mess.

I couldn't believe the fire either. I can sortof understand a stationary fire if there's a pipeline or something... but what's the ignition source in a big mud flow?

[gabhainn]

.. but what's the ignition source in a big mud flow?
depends on the solvent.;)
quick chemistry lesson, any suspension or colloid (solution) is made of 2 parts : a) the solvent and b) the solute. The solute is particles suspended in the solution, and the solvent is the liquid that dissolves solutes. Simple quick example is salt water. salt is the solute, water is the solvent and salt water is the suspension/solution.
so if the mud was a solution of gasoline and dirt, heck yeah it would burn. even if it was a solution of gasoline (or any flammable liquid), water, and dirt......Kevin

[Remali]

It is now being reported that the explosion was outside of the nuclear power plant, not inside the plant.

[Pinky]

It's being reported here that the building that housed the reactors was what blew, but the 'primary containment vessel' of the fuel rods was not damaged. They're still evacuating people from around the plants and have moved an estimated 140,000. All people leaving the area are being tested (scanned?) for radiation exposure. Three people have been badly exposed so far. The four workers at the plant who were injured in the blast are all conscious and their injuries aren't life-threatening.

The situation at the power plants seems to be under control now that they're using sea water to cool the reactor core.

From the BBC: "More from that unidentified official at Japan's Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency on rating the incident at the Fukushima nuclear plant on the IAEA scale of 0-7: "Right now we are considering the accident should be rated four. The rating may be changed in accordance with the development of the condition.""
Just for comparison, Chernobyl was rated a 7 and the Three Mile Island accident was rated a 5.

Looks like a major nuclear crisis has been avoided :). Now it's the clear up from the tsunami.

[Remali]

Well, now they are reporting (on CNN) that a meltdown "may" be underway... And the second plant doesn't sound as if things are going any better there either. :(

[miatapony]

This is bad all around for this little country...

[Remali]

It sure is. And let's hope there isn't truly a meltdown, that would be very bad for a lot of people, including us.

[miatapony]

here is something a friend posted on face book im glad all my friends are ok i hope this works
YouTube - Footage from military Base in Japan of Earthquake damage

[WashingtonBay]

Very bad deal indeed. I'm no fan of nuclear... for reasons like this! The consequences of failure are just too high.

This is an interesting article, full of little facts: Japan earthquake factbox: Entire Japan coast shifted 2.4 metres, earth axis moves ten inches (http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Japan+earthquake+factbox+Entire+Japan+coast+shifte d+metres+earth+axis+moves+inches/4425617/story.html)

And check this out... Check out the date on the story:
Japanese Fear Oarfish Sightings Are Quake Omen - Superstitious worry as deep-sea dweller begins surfacing (http://www.newser.com/story/82400/japanese-fear-oarfish-sightings-are-quake-omen.html)

[Tiz]

Wow! That is cool! Score for lore!

I just listened to a scientist from Portland say that earthquakes are entirely unpredictable. Centuries of simple observation appears to refute that.

[natisha]

Very bad deal indeed. I'm no fan of nuclear... for reasons like this! The consequences of failure are just too high.

This is an interesting article, full of little facts: Japan earthquake factbox: Entire Japan coast shifted 2.4 metres, earth axis moves ten inches (http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Japan+earthquake+factbox+Entire+Japan+coast+shifte d+metres+earth+axis+moves+inches/4425617/story.html)

And check this out... Check out the date on the story:
Japanese Fear Oarfish Sightings Are Quake Omen - Superstitious worry as deep-sea dweller begins surfacing (http://www.newser.com/story/82400/japanese-fear-oarfish-sightings-are-quake-omen.html)
Japan has 55 nuclear sites, so if there are problems with 2 following this disaster that's not so bad. Maybe they shouldn't build them on fault lines, though Japan is one big fault line.

[Tiz]

here is something a friend posted on face book im glad all my friends are ok i hope this works
YouTube - Footage from military Base in Japan of Earthquake damage (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgC4CJeJDL8)


Very good to hear, m.:)

[Remali]

I was thinking that too Natisha.... Japan sits on one of the worst, if not the very worst, fault line.... not the greatest site for nuclear power plants. CNN just reported a possible issue with a third nuclear power plant now, things seem rather unclear at the this point though....

[WashingtonBay]

Japan has 55 nuclear sites, so if there are problems with 2 following this disaster that's not so bad. Maybe they shouldn't biuld them on fault lines, though Japan is one big fault line.

As is the West Coast. Any one failing could be bad. We'll see. I don't think anything's real clear at this point.

[mare]

Very bad deal indeed. I'm no fan of nuclear... for reasons like this! The consequences of failure are just too high.

This is an interesting article, full of little facts: Japan earthquake factbox: Entire Japan coast shifted 2.4 metres, earth axis moves ten inches (http://www.vancouversun.com/news/Japan+earthquake+factbox+Entire+Japan+coast+shifte d+metres+earth+axis+moves+inches/4425617/story.html)

And check this out... Check out the date on the story:
Japanese Fear Oarfish Sightings Are Quake Omen - Superstitious worry as deep-sea dweller begins surfacing (http://www.newser.com/story/82400/japanese-fear-oarfish-sightings-are-quake-omen.html)

The comments (made before the quake) are kind of funny. "There's nothing to the oarfish superstitions." "Science reigns" kind of stuff.

Good find.

[Remali]

It doesn't sound too promising for the nuclear power plant..... CNN was just reporting that caesium is in the air.... apparently that happens during a meltdown.... Also heard people are testing positive for radiation exposure.

[rocknK]

From what I heard at first was that US military was bringing in generators to run the circulating pumps at these reactors. Don't you think that they would've had these standby generators already built-in at these facilities. All a nuke plant is, is a big old boiler that uses steam to turn turbines that generate electricity. The weak link is that you gotta have cooling circulating constantly or real bad stuff happens. If we can build reactors into submarines that float & dive all over the oceans you think that they could design a fixed plant that could survive most anything. But God & Mother Nature have a way of humbling even the smartest engineer.....

[rocknK]

Found solid dope on wht happened at the nuke sites. They did have standby diesel generators, they ran for an hour or so but the fuel was contaminated by sea water from the tidal wave. What's that old saying??? For the want of a nail the shoe was lost.......

[WashingtonBay]

Aerial photos taken over Japan have revealed the scale of devastation (http://www.abc.net.au/news/events/japan-quake-2011/beforeafter.htm)

[Remali]

From what I've been hearing on the news like CNN, etc..... they did try the back-up generators first, and then the sea water as a last resort. But reports are sort of cobbled, so who knows what really is going on over there.

Volcano erupted in Japan Sunday...
http://hotair.com/archives/2011/03/13/cnn-this-is-no-chernobyl/

[FredRock]

My dad was watching the news on the generators, he's a chemist in a nuclear power plant so he was really interested. He said that the generators ran on batteries and only worked for a few hours, didn't believe (as of last night) that there was any way the plants weren't on meltdown by now. Without coolant the cores just keep getting hotter and hotter until they go. Even on good days in his own plant, the heat by the reactors can be so intense that people have passed out from being there.

Radiation is a huge problem (even on normal working days), but having the core melt down is their biggest problem right now. It could be Chernbol all over again. Let's hope it isn't.

[offgridgirl]

I think it is very ironical that a nuclear power plant needs a back-up power system!! Come on!! How can this not be something that was thought about??? Now we are all threaten by a nuclear cloud!!:mad:

[WashingtonBay]

Another tsunami warning apparently happening right now.

These people need a break.

[Remali]

Unbelievable. I hope we don't all glow in the dark any time soon.....
Didn't a volcano just erupt over there today too?

Another one....

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/13/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=T1

I think the situation is much worse than the Japanese want us to believe...

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/14/world/asia/japan-fukushima-nuclear-reactor.html?_r=1&hp

[magayle]

what a mess for EVERYONE and mostly because of stupid humans:(
it's the natural consequence of soooo many mistakes.....God help us all

[miatapony]

all of my friends are OK .. and still on base.. but have been informed that they must cut the power usage to one room and water down also .... WOW i hope they will come back from this fast.... i loved my time there... just not the biting cold.... please everyone over there be safe.
I stole this from a friend .. she wont mind .. but please any and all help will be great.

Here's how you can help with the earthquake relief efforts. You can send items to these addresses through your local neighborhood Japanese Post Office:

They really need :
...1.Foods (instant foods, dietary supplements, baby foods)
2.Warm blank......ets (That north part of Japan is still really cold now)
...3.Cothings
4.Baby clothings, and DIAPERS!!!!

Attn: Earthquake relief supplies
Miyagi Prefectural Office
3-8-1, Honcho
Aoba-ku, Sendai city, Miyagi
980-8570, JAPAN

Attn: Earthquake relief supplies
Iwate Prefectural Office
10-1 Uchimaru Morioka city, Iwate
020-8570,JAPAN

Attn:Earthquake relief supplies
Aomori Prefectural Office
1-1-1 Nagashima, Aomori city,
Aomori, 030-8570, JAPAN

Attn:earthquake relief supplies
Fukushima Prefectural Office
2-16 Sugitsuma-cho, Fukushima City
960-8670, Japan

[WashingtonBay]

what a mess for EVERYONE and mostly because of stupid humans:(
it's the natural consequence of soooo many mistakes.....God help us all

OK - I'm with ya on the nuclear risk being mostly human... But that's not a major cause of harm, yet... so what the heck do you mean?

Hubby brings up a good point. In Japan, what equivalent alternative power options do they have? I don't know.

[natisha]

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1605260179420
Completely unreal. :(

This is HE by the way. I'm not sure if you guys can see this video or not.

[WashingtonBay]

Yes, that plays. Incredible footage.

[magayle]

OK - I'm with ya on the nuclear risk being mostly human... But that's not a major cause of harm, yet... so what the heck do you mean?

Hubby brings up a good point. In Japan, what equivalent alternative power options do they have? I don't know.

i was responding to what remali posted about us all glowing in the dark and not being told of the danger....the nuclear mess and general lack of peace throughout the world...

[WashingtonBay]

OKAY - I'll grant that nuclear events are man made. I'm not a fan of nuclear power for just this reason. I think it's dangerous.

The rest of this though, is much bigger than we are.

We're just people, doin the best we can on this planet. :)

[Remali]

Yes, what magayle said..... I was referring to the mess at the nuclear power plants....the quake and tsunami are w hole 'nuther matter.... Japan, it appears, may not be very forthcoming about what is really going on over there right now. Altho today I see they are admitting that three reactors are now "probably" melting down. There is always too much human error when it comes to things like this.... Katrina should have been a huge wake-up call for everyone, that was a major, major human blunder on the part of our government.

[WashingtonBay]

Not sure how it relates to Katrina.

Why is Katrina now the milepost for judging all disasters? Not an accusation, really an observation of the conversations everywhere today. Katrina is brought up every time now, as if it's the only hurricane or disaster we've ever had.

[Brandy101]

Yea i Heard about it! isn't that just sad

[Remali]

I just used Katrina as an example of how governments really are not prepared for disasters..... and how the government can make promises yet really drop the ball. Also, Katrina was fresh in my mind because I watched a NatGeo documentary about it last night, and it focused on those government blunders. Sometimes people/governement have to pay attention and learn thru past mistakes..... It wasn't really that Katrina was such a horrible hurricane (well, it was that), it was the very poor government response to help the people in need.

And.... now, we have so many conflicting reports coming out of Japan about these nuclear power plants.... there is a meltdown, no there isn't, oh wait yes there may be a meltdown..... it's a mess, and no clear message of what is truly going on over there....

[WashingtonBay]

No - Katrina keeps being brought up everywhere... it's not just you ;)

Your feelings on what went wrong there, not surprisingly, are almost exactly opposite my own ;)

I've been debating disaster response and comparisons to Katrina on political forums this morning. I think we all think there is some unsettled business with Katrina, it's why it keeps coming up.

IMHO, if there's a lesson to be learned, it's that an entire culture that depends on government for everything, due to geography and topography, due to a welfare dependence and helplessness, will ultimately be disappointed every time. We have hurricanes every year. Most don't sit around and wait for the federal government to arrive and fix everything, and then complain when it's too slow and not enough. For the most part, they prepare. And then they endure. And then they clean up.


http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/03/japan_is_not_haiti.html

This will make the difference: Japan is not Haiti....or New Orleans, for that matter

Errol Phillips
3/14/2011

Japan is not Haiti ....

Here is what to expect in the coming months out of the disaster that has affected Northeast Japan:

How do I know .... I was living just outside of Kobe when the monstrous jishin (earthquake) hit in January 1995 and virtually destroyed the center of a major Japanese City killing 6,600 people covering a 20 mile swath. I was right in the middle.

Down the street from where I lived a 7 story apartment building ended up being 4 stories. My next door neighbor died from a collapsed roof.

When the quake hit, I thought it was a bomb going off.

Here's what didn't happen:

There was no looting or breaking into food stores

There was no time for trying to blame anyone

There was no one cutting in the front of the line to get water

There were no calls to lawyers

Here is what did happen:

The people in the Kobe Area were not waiting around for a US Aircraft Carrier

The Military was deployed immediately to dig and search.

The Yakuza (Japanese Mafia) were the early suppliers of medical supplies and food (They had the connections and the means to get the material to the folks

Within days Temporary housing was being constructed all over the Area

Within days portable showers and toilet facilities were set up all over the Area

Within days, supermarkets were opened and the queues stretched endlessly as they could only let a few people in the stores at a time. There was no anger, yelling, blaming, looting, cutting in front

Within hours ... clean-up began by everyone .. students, teachers, seniors, yakuza, politicians. Everyone seemed to be contributing in some way.

As a foreigner, I was treated like everyone else ....

Result:

By the time I left Japan 4 years later, I would say 90 % of the entire City of Kobe had been rebuilt .... and consider that New York has been unable to erect a couple of building at ground zero now going on 10 years.

So like I said, Japan is not Haiti...nor New Orleans. They don't need us...that is not to say they would not be unappreciative of any assistance.

[Remali]

Well, what I was mainly referring to, about the government response, was.... rescuing the people who were trapped on the rooftops, trapped at that awful superdome, those scenes..... it was days before any kind of rescue really got under way.... Bush was off at his ranch while people were sitting on rooftops, then Bush was off over to San Diego, and the V.P was fly fishing while the people in LA were sitting on rooftops.....

[WashingtonBay]

...People with personal and political agendas exaggerating and politicizing everything to an always-eager-to-drum-up-scandal media... Yeah, I remember.

[FredRock]

IMHO, if there's a lesson to be learned, it's that an entire culture that depends on government for everything, due to geography and topography, due to a welfare dependence and helplessness, will ultimately be disappointed every time. We have hurricanes every year. Most don't sit around and wait for the federal government to arrive and fix everything, and then complain when it's too slow and not enough. For the most part, they prepare. And then they endure. And then they clean up.

Hit the nail on the head, WB.

If they haven't been able to get any kind of coolant to the cores by now, then the plants are on meltdown. There's really no conceivable way that they couldn't be. Like my dad told me before, them saying "probably" is a gross understatement.

In other news, Yahoo! has the planetary changes the earthquake caused:

The world's fifth-largest, 8.8 magnitude quake was caused when the Pacific tectonic plate dove under the North American plate, which shifted Eastern Japan towards North America by about 13 feet (see NASA's before and after photos at right). The quake also shifted the earth's axis by 6.5 inches, shortened the day by 1.6 microseconds, and sank Japan downward by about two feet. As Japan's eastern coastline sunk, the tsunami's waves rolled in.

Main Article (http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110314/ts_yblog_thelookout/japans-earthquake-shifted-balance-of-the-planet)

Wow, that was one big earthquake.

[Tiz]

Remali, you don't know the facts, nor the timeline, nor the law, relating to Katrina.

As for me, if I had 5 days notice that a possible Category 5 hurricane was going to hit my below sea level home, I would go inland. Even if I had to walk, I could get far enough away in that length of time to avoid the deadliest part of the storm, there in my below sea level home, water.

I wouldn't pile into a Superdome for the government provided food and shelter.

[Tiz]

I think to expect any structure, as in a nuclear power plant, to withstand a five hundred year earthquake, without incident, is beyond unreasonable.

I do wonder what prevents the plant from being built by, or on, a naturally moving water source that could continuously flood, and cool, and prevent the reactor's rods from melting down.

[WashingtonBay]

I think to expect any structure, as in a nuclear power plant, to withstand a five hundred year earthquake, without incident, is beyond unreasonable.

I agree. For me it's not about people being incompetent or doing wrong, it's about people being outmatched by nature here.

I do wonder what prevents the plant from being built by, or on, a naturally moving water source that could continuously flood, and cool, and prevent the reactor's rods from melting down.

Is the water, after use, contaminated? Naturally moving water would indicate to me it would need to be released after use.

I don't like it. The consequences of failure, even with the best engineering, are too high.

[Tiz]

It isn't contaminated, but warmed, and environmentalists don't like that.

[Tiz]

I agree. For me it's not about people being incompetent or doing wrong, it's about people being outmatched by nature here.



Is the water, after use, contaminated? Naturally moving water would indicate to me it would need to be released after use.

I don't like it. The consequences of failure, even with the best engineering, are too high.

Me too. I visualize it passing over the rods and continuing on it's way. Maybe the constant availability of water for coolant is why nuclear submarines have been in use for decades without incident.

[WashingtonBay]

Well, warming has a cure. - time to cool off again.

I mean... no one wants to kill a whole river. That's not a good trade either. "environmentalist" or not. I'm just not sure what you've got in mind there.

I think any one risk can be planned for. They had kindof all of them at once in this case.

[Tiz]

Kill a river?

[WashingtonBay]

Yes... was speaking of discharge water that is too warm, or is contaminated.

[Remali]

Funny Tiz....... the program was just on last night again (it was a re-run). So, then if Bush didn't drop the ball with Katrina, why did he go on TV and apologize for what he did not do? Tiz, maybe you need to look at the facts..... They had the entire timeline, interviews with govt. officials, all on TV.....

[WashingtonBay]

Why? Because presidents are blamed and criticized for everything, and he accepted that.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Funny Tiz....... the program was just on last night again (it was a re-run). So, then if Bush didn't drop the ball with Katrina, why did he go on TV and apologize for what he did not do? Tiz, maybe you need to look at the facts..... They had the entire timeline, interviews with govt. officials, all on TV.....

If you think Bush did anything wrong during Katrina, I'd love to know what it was.

Japan has the advantage that they don't have governor Blanco or mayor Nagin, refusing to evacuate people, and refusing access to the national guard for three days. Throughout Japan they activated the tsunami evacuation alarms, and while they only had a bare few minutes warning it saved countless thousands of lives.

Japan also has the advantage that they don't have the corrupt local wards and population of N.O. to contend with. Their first inclination (apparently) has not been to loot and destroy. It has been to help.

The thing that has hit Japan is some orders of magnitude more devastating than the modest, by comparison, flood in New Orleans. It's certainly going to have killed many more people over a far, far, wider area. Yet (from what I've seen, anyway) the Japanese are showing the world how civilized they can be. Not how savage.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Well, warming has a cure. - time to cool off again.

I mean... no one wants to kill a whole river. That's not a good trade either. "environmentalist" or not. I'm just not sure what you've got in mind there.

I think any one risk can be planned for. They had kindof all of them at once in this case.

I'm frankly a little irritated that the reactors seem to be the only thing getting any attention from our press. Sure, it's worth checking in on, and seeing how they're doing, but there are far, far more important things happening around Japan. The scale of the destruction is off the charts, both from the quake and the tsunami damage... and our press seems to be virtually ignoring all that.

All for the sake of some reactors that simply refuse to melt down on live TV. That's the story they want so desperately to tell. I think it's making journalists visibly angry that so far the containment and cooling measures are still working. They want to show a China Syndrome.

[WashingtonBay]

I really don't know how big the nuclear story is. I hear it's melting down... I hear 'everything's fine'.

I haven't been watching the news so I can't speak to the reports, or not.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Oh... and no, reactors don't put hot (or warm) water back into rivers. That's what the cooling towers are for. They're not cooling the reactor, they're cooling the water that cooled the reactor, back to air temp to release it back into the river.

Whether they bother to cool water that's just being poured into the ocean, I don't know. Probably... but it's also possible that the effects of that kind of dilution just don't make a big difference.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I really don't know how big the nuclear story is. I hear it's melting down... I hear 'everything's fine'.

I haven't been watching the news so I can't speak to the reports, or not.

There may have been a partial meltdown of one or two of the cores. But the information coming out is sketchy. I don't trust our media on this one. They WANT a meltdown too much. The BBC was reporting this morning that core temperatures in ALL of the at-risk reactors was coming down. It had peaked out, and the cooling measures were working.

Hopefully, that's the case.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I saw the most heartbreaking picture today. I can't tell how old this girl is, but her story is one of many thousands, and I suppose that's what makes it as iconic as it is:

[JackieB]

I saw the most heartbreaking picture today. I can't tell how old this girl is, but her story is one of many thousands, and I suppose that's what makes it as iconic as it is:

I saw that photo earlier today, too. Very touching. I wanted to walk into the picture, sit down on the pavement next to her, and just put my arm around her shoulder and not say anything. Kind of like some dogs or horses will come near when they know a person is upset.

For those who have never experienced it (I haven't), the emotional devastation of losing everything at once, even if your loved ones all survived, must be incredible.

[Remali]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42066534/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

another explosion.....

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42066534/ns/world_news-asiapacific/

another explosion.....

Yes... there's been a few. Keep in mind that those are hydrogen explosions, outside of the containment vessel where the core sits.

[Remali]

....still not very encouraging when they are saying the core has been exposed.... :eek:

There are so many reports out there right now, but I read that Tuesday's explosion may have damaged the containment vessel (the reactor's suppression chamber).... let's hope not...

Fire has now broken out....

http://www.smh.com.au/environment/fire-breaks-out-at-nuclear-plant-radiation-levels-rise-considerably-20110315-1buq7.html

[WashingtonBoy]

Here is fascinating article on what is happening with the reactors, and the multiple level of safety systems that are in play.

Fukushima Nuclear Accident – a simple and accurate explanation (http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Here is fascinating article on what is happening with the reactors, and the multiple level of safety systems that are in play.

Fukushima Nuclear Accident – a simple and accurate explanation (http://bravenewclimate.com/2011/03/13/fukushima-simple-explanation/)

That's a great article. A couple of days old, but it does lay out the situation very well. Looks so far like the guy is on target.

[Remali]

New reports about radiation levels being high enough to affect human health now.... geez, these poor folks cannot seem to get any kind of break....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-12740843

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

New reports about radiation levels being high enough to affect human health now.... geez, these poor folks cannot seem to get any kind of break....
[...]


True. It's about time that something starts to break their way.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I still wish we could get some reports on the rest of the quake / tsunami damage around the rest of Japan. I know the reactors scare everybody... but I would like to know about some of the other-- probably more important-- stuff.

I think (so far) that it's entirely likely that the reactors will be at most a very local problem. They're already a total loss financially and will cost their owners a fortune to clean up and decommission. But unless things just go totally sideways from here, it looks like it's just not the end of the world.

Actually--- one report, and I haven't seen anything since--- said that this very Fukushima plant was about to be decommissioned soon. Like... weeks or months from now. Haven't seen anything further on that. Yeesh... talk about "timing is everything".

[JackieB]

Looks so far like the guy is on target.

Something's not adding up for me, though. The guy who wrote the article is at MIT, so he knows his stuff. If I read his article correctly, he's saying that anything escaping into the air isn't going to be radioactive for more than a few second anyway. That would be wonderful.

The Japanese government has ordered residents within 20 miles to stay indoors, has evacuated a 12 mile radius, and has hospitalized some residents with radiation exposure. The USS Ronald Reagan confirmed low-level exposure of some crewmen flying in a helicopter and the US fleet has moved so that it's not downwind of the plant anymore.

If those isotopes become stable within seconds of leaving the reactor, none of this should be necessary.

So put me down as skeptical. His assertion that the control rods stopped the reactors and they're just dealing with some residual heat seems a bit simplistic to me.

I agree that the media is looking for a big story, but the Japanese government and US Navy have nothing to gain from feeding fears, yet they are taking evasive actions.

[JackieB]

Some people make me sick to my stomach. I don't blame the guy's daughter, of course. She did what she could. So glad the story has a happy ending. That's worth a lot.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703363904576200571710073008.html?m od=googlenews_wsj

[Remali]

OMG, I'm with you JackieB.... people like that man need to be tied to a shed and left to die. I was glad it had a good ending, how horrific.

[JackieB]

OMG, I'm with you JackieB.... people like that man need to be tied to a shed and left to die. I was glad it had a good ending, how horrific.

Couldn't even go as far as untying the dogs to let them try to fend for themselves and survive.

And of course they can't come to the shelter where people are suffering. That would be disrespectful. Maybe he'd feel better about the rescue dogs that can smell a living human under a pile of rubble. At least they're worth something. You know, not just dogs.

Give me a break.

[JackieB]

Here are some dogs and their human companions who just arrived in Japan to help with rescue efforts. As with any earthquake, there are undoubtedly some people still trapped alive in the rubble.

http://www.searchdogfoundation.org/98/html/index.html

[Remali]

People like that should not be allowed to own animals of any kind.

Nice to see the rescue workers and rescue dogs out there helping.

[Remali]

I have CNN on right now.... reports of another new fire at another nuclear reactor (reactor four)....

Apparently 750 workers have now left the nuclear power plant there. Only 50 remain, according to reports.

[natisha]

I have CNN on right now.... reports of another new fire at another nuclear reactor (reactor four)....

Apparently 750 workers have now left the nuclear power plant there. Only 50 remain, according to reports.They pulled those last 50 workers out. That can't be good.

[JackieB]

I see that RD's expert from last night has edited his post considerably. I did find his tone to be rather patronizing in his effort to explain that there was very little risk to anyone and this is all just media hysteria.

Time will tell, but if the power company itself decided to evacuate the last 50 (very brave) engineers, then there must be a considerable amount of radiation leaking. The latest I heard is that they are considering dropping the water and boron/boric acid/whatever it is by helicopter.

I can't imagine that the world will ever abandon nuclear energy, but I should think this will call into question the wisdom of allowing plants of older design to continue to operate.

[magayle]

a bit of inspiration with this tragedy....

http://www.glennbeck.com/2011/03/15/japanese-people-are-setting-the-example/

[natisha]

I see that RD's expert from last night has edited his post considerably. I did find his tone to be rather patronizing in his effort to explain that there was very little risk to anyone and this is all just media hysteria.

Time will tell, but if the power company itself decided to evacuate the last 50 (very brave) engineers, then there must be a considerable amount of radiation leaking. The latest I heard is that they are considering dropping the water and boron/boric acid/whatever it is by helicopter.

I can't imagine that the world will ever abandon nuclear energy, but I should think this will call into question the wisdom of allowing plants of older design to continue to operate.I was thinking along those lines. The technology must be more advanced than 50 years ago. We've had no major incidents with the over 100 plants we currently have, besides 3 Mile Island.
What happened in Japan was kind of a perfect storm type thing. We shouldn't be afraid of something that works due to a remote possibility of something going wrong.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I see that RD's expert from last night has edited his post considerably. I did find his tone to be rather patronizing in his effort to explain that there was very little risk to anyone and this is all just media hysteria.

Time will tell, but if the power company itself decided to evacuate the last 50 (very brave) engineers, then there must be a considerable amount of radiation leaking. The latest I heard is that they are considering dropping the water and boron/boric acid/whatever it is by helicopter.

I can't imagine that the world will ever abandon nuclear energy, but I should think this will call into question the wisdom of allowing plants of older design to continue to operate.

I heard about that. Things are tough over there, no doubt. But there is still a lot more hype in our media than there is good information. That "evacuation" of the last 50 engineers wasn't right... they left for a few hours when there was a spike in the detectors, but they're back now. The translator accidentally omitted the word "temporarily" when relating that story.

Whatever happens... even if this thing goes totally sideways and ultimately goes into meltdown, those guys are some serious heroes. They're quite possibly risking their lives to try everything in their power to get over the hump on this thing. They may pull it off yet. I'm still rooting for them. If they can hold out a little longer... things should start to turn in the right direction.

The thing I don't like is the over-the-top panic-mongering in the media. Yes, a nuke plant meltdown is a bad thing. I don't think there's much argument about that. But it's going to be-- at worst-- still a very local problem. Hell... Chernobl was orders of magnitude worse than this can possibly be, and THAT was still only a local problem. How many people did Chernobl kill? Anyone? The answer is 31. They were the first responders. The firefighters that entered the building ~knew~ that they were going to get a lethal dose of radiation and they went in anyway. I'd be comrades with those guys any day.

Over 900 honest-to-goodness nuclear weapons have been exploded right here in the U.S. in Nevada. Many underground, true, but a couple hundred were air burst. Are we surviving it all?

There's probably north of 10,000 people dead in Japan. In fact they may never know with any certainty how many they have lost. One thing for sure... none of those were anything to do with these reactors. How about some reporting on the REST of the problem? Sure... the reactors are interesting. But there's a whole lot more going on that puts a lot more people at risk than the reactors. That impact has already been mitigated to a large degree by evacuations. OK... so now what else is going on? Nothing?

[Remali]

The reactors are a whole lot more than "interesting".....

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/16/evening-buzz-water-dumped-on-nuclear-plant/

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/16/japan-quake-live-blog-death-toll-expected-to-rise-as-crews-reach-more-areas/

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

The reactors are a whole lot more than "interesting".....

http://ac360.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/16/evening-buzz-water-dumped-on-nuclear-plant/

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/03/16/japan-quake-live-blog-death-toll-expected-to-rise-as-crews-reach-more-areas/

So are the other things that result from a 9.0 earthquake and a tsunami. You know... all those things we're hearing nothing about... because apparently the only thing happening in Japan right now is a problem at a nuclear plant.

I suspect that there is more stuff happening there than just this one problem at a nuclear plant. I dunno... I just think stuff like that.

Something has killed probably ten thousand or more people in Japan, and it wasn't a nuke plant. Why can't we hear about any of that? you know... the stuff where lives are actually at risk?

bleh.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I was thinking along those lines. The technology must be more advanced than 50 years ago. We've had no major incidents with the over 100 plants we currently have, besides 3 Mile Island.
What happened in Japan was kind of a perfect storm type thing. We shouldn't be afraid of something that works due to a remote possibility of something going wrong.

There's a good trivia question: How many people died at Three Mile Island?

[WashingtonBay]

I saw some pictures today of people standing amid some of the debris from the tsunami. The wall of it was 20 feet high and it seemed to go on as far as the eye can see.

How do you clean that up? I'd say just torch it, but there might be people in there.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I saw some pictures today of people standing amid some of the debris from the tsunami. The wall of it was 20 feet high and it seemed to go on as far as the eye can see.

How do you clean that up? I'd say just torch it, but there might be people in there.

I don't honestly know. Certainly... some survivors are going to be pulled from all that. It staggers the imagination, but it'll happen.

[Remali]

Not sure what News channels you may watch, but they actually are reporting a lot about the quake and tsunami victims..... they are definitely not forgotten. Quite a few new videos out, and new interviews.

[natisha]

There's a good trivia question: How many people died at Three Mile Island?
I don't think any died directly. There are reports of people later dying from stuff but if something was that bad & caused disease & death wouldn't everyone in the same area also die?

[Remali]

People ended up with cancer from Three Mile Island.

[natisha]

People ended up with cancer from Three Mile Island.If that were the case why didn't everyone get it? Why would some people be skipped?

[JackieB]

If that were the case why didn't everyone get it? Why would some people be skipped?

Radiation causes changes in genes, but that wouldn't necessarily lead to cancer in every individual who was exposed to a comparable amount of radiation. Just like applying radiation to kill cancer cells doesn't always kill every one of them.

[Remali]

Found this interesting article on Three Mile Island....

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/04/03-9

[JackieB]

The thing I don't like is the over-the-top panic-mongering in the media.

They're just giving the public what it wants. Unfortunately, but people love to hear about disasters for some reason. Ultimately, the media doesn't end up affecting policy and public opinion nearly as much as what actually happens.

The laws of physics could care less about MSNBC on one end or a Nuclear Lobbying
Group on the other. If systems work the way they are designed and disaster is averted, people forget immediately. If systems fail, but creative new solutions resolve a problem with moderate fallout (no pun intended), people forgive fairly quickly.

What causes problems with pragmatists like me is when I feel like there is an effort on the part of those in charge to conceal the true extent of a problem for financial or political gain. That makes me wonder whether or not there were opportunities to get a situation under control that passed because there was such a strong desire (groupthink) to downplay the severity of a problem. We won't know for months or years if that is happening in this case, but that's what makes people lose trust.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

People ended up with cancer from Three Mile Island.

That would be interesting, if it were true. But it just isn't. Cancer rates in the area around TMI are no different than the rates anywhere else in the country.

In reality, Three Mile Island was almost a non-event. It's only because of Jane Fonda's movie "China Syndrome" that TMI was ever a news story.

[JackieB]

That would be interesting, if it were true. But it just isn't. Cancer rates in the area around TMI are no different than the rates anywhere else in the country.

In reality, Three Mile Island was almost a non-event. It's only because of Jane Fonda's movie "China Syndrome" that TMI was ever a news story.

According to the NIH there was an increase. They just couldn't determine whether or not it was related to radiation. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1405170/

[natisha]

There's a part of SE WI that has an unnerving amount of primary site brain tumors & funky cancers. I think there is something going on, some sort of link or maybe it's just that I worked at the only hospital around for the people in that community so I saw more? It's easy to point fingers but who really knows?

[Remali]

You may want to take your head out of that hole in the sand Ragnar..... it actually DID happen. ;) Lots of people got ill, many incidents of cancer. It is a known fact.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

You may want to take your head out of that hole in the sand Ragnar..... it actually DID happen. ;) Lots of people got ill, many incidents of cancer. It is a known fact.

Not a known fact... but a widespread belief.

From Wikipedia, on TMI:

In the end, the reactor was brought under control, although full details of the accident were not discovered until much later, following extensive investigations by both a presidential commission and the NRC. The Kemeny Commission Report concluded that "there will either be no case of cancer or the number of cases will be so small that it will never be possible to detect them. The same conclusion applies to the other possible health effects." Several epidemiological studies in the years since the accident have supported the conclusion that radiation releases from the accident had no perceptible effect on cancer incidence in residents near the plant

[Remali]

LMAO..... so now you are quoting the government's response to TMI... yeah, like they never lie or cover-up anything.... ;) I have some nice land for sale in the Everglades too...

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Heh... not exactly. Yah, there was a formal investigation (the Kemeny commission... a ~Carter~ presidential commission, not exactly a raving right-wing nutter) but the several various epidemiological studies of the effects were done by a whole assortment of entities, public and private.

There's only really one guy, named Wasserman, that's ever published anything claiming otherwise. Well... Wasserman is a well-known anti-nuclear activist. He's all about hype, and certainly not about science.

The truth is that there's just no empirical evidence that TMI had any sort of wide or lasting effects. Honest.

This is NOT to say that TMI was a good thing, or that we want it happening every day. Of course it was a very serious malfunction of a reactor. Such things ~need~ to be studied and used to refine future designs and guide engineers toward better and better systems as time goes on.

The cost of TMI, however, has been high. Between the ill timing of the release of The China Syndrome and the TMI accident, it effectively ended nuclear power as a viable option in the U.S. Think of what that's cost us now, in further dependence on foreign oil and further reliance on coal power plants. Had we shifted to more reliance on nuclear power thirty years ago we wouldn't be having many of the problems we are having now. We would have plentiful, low-cost electrical power all across the country. How much better would that be?

[Remali]

Recent info from CNN today... "The Nuclear and Industrial Safety Agency raised the level from a 4 to 5 -- putting it on par with the 1979 incident at Pennsylvania's Three Mile Island."

http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/asiapcf/03/18/japan.nuclear.reactors/index.html?hpt=C1

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/03/18/japan-reaches-race-clock-avert-nuclear-disaster/

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

It may be that those tireless engineers at Fukushima Daiichi are finally catching a break. Lord knows, they've earned it...

Looks like they have regular cooling for a couple reactors, and power is being restored to pump cooling for the other reactors. On balance... I'd call that good news.

Excerpt follows... more at: http://www.automatedtrader.net/real-time-news/72087/japan-update-cooling-resumed-at-reactors-4--5-at-fukushima

-------------------

Japan Update: Cooling Resumed at Reactors 4 & 5 at Fukushima

First Published Saturday, 19 March 2011 03:20 am - © 2011 Need to Know News (http://www.needtoknownews.com/)


--Updates With News of Resumption of Cooling in Reactors 4 and 5 --Work Continuing to Restart Cooling in Reactors 1 and 2 --TEPCO Expects to Connect Power to All Reactors by Sunday --Acceptable Radiation Level Raised After Workers Surpass Limit
TOKYO (MNI) - Tokyo Electric Power Co (TEPCO) has succeeded Saturday in restarting an emergency diesel generator and resuming the cooling functions in Reactors 4 and 5 in its Fukushima nuclear power facility as work continued to bring power to the other reactors.

Reactors 4 and 5 at the plant are set away from the other four reactors, which sustained the most damage in the massive quake and tsunamis on March 11.
Meanwhile, workers have succeeded in attaching a power cable to the crisis-hit Fukushima nuclear power plant and are now working inside to ensure success when they switch on desperately needed cooling machinery.

"TEPCO has connected the external transmission line with the receiving point of the plant and confirmed that electricity can be supplied," the plant's operation, TEPCO said.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I would put out another thought regarding the engineers that have been working this problem at Fukushima:

It's probably safe to assume that those engineers that have been staying so diligently at their posts, in whatever shifts they've been on for a week now... they all had family right in the bullseye of the earthquake and tsunami. Few of them, if any, probably have any idea what has happened to their loved ones.

Just a thought. Putting it out there.