Radiation network...

[offgridgirl]

http://www.radiationnetwork.com/index.htm


Here is a link for those of you concerned with radiation...join the network!

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Oh swell... just what we needed... :rolleyes:

[offgridgirl]

be prepared-boyscout motto!:)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

I'm as prepared as I need to be for radiation from Japan. It's similar to my preparations for invasion by space aliens. :)

[natisha]

I'm as prepared as I need to be for radiation from Japan. It's similar to my preparations for invasion by space aliens. :):hysterical:

[Remali]

That's an interesting link offgridgirl. It's good to be informed.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

That's an interesting link offgridgirl. It's good to be informed.

It's good to be informed.

It's less good to be misinformed.

I'm just sayin'. :)

[Remali]

Ragnar, I bet if I said, "It's a Nice day out", you would say "Oh no it isn't!!". You crack me up.

:hysterical:

[offgridgirl]

I'm as prepared as I need to be for radiation from Japan. It's similar to my preparations for invasion by space aliens. :)

Yes, we are sending them to you guys in the states, as I told them you have better sense of humor....:cool:

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Ragnar, I bet if I said, "It's a Nice day out", you would say "Oh no it isn't!!". You crack me up.

:hysterical:


No, I wouldn't. :)

[WashingtonBay]

YouTube - Monty Python - Argument Clinic

[Remali]

YouTube - Monty Python- Fish Slapping Dance!

[WashingtonBay]

:cheers:

[Remali]

Gotta love Monty Python! :)

[Tiz]

YouTube - Monty Python - Argument Clinic (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM)

I had to check and see if Monty Python stuff still bugged me.

Yeah.

[WashingtonBay]

Gotta love Monty Python! :)

Tiz doesn't. ;)

[mare]

Tiz doesn't. ;)

Does too.

[WashingtonBay]

No she doesn't!

[Tiz]

I might.

[WashingtonBay]

No you won't. :p

[Tiz]

Yes...I...will.

[Remali]

There was a big discussion on talk radio today about nuclear power plants; the expense, safety, environmental issues, etc. It was interesting. Personally, I would rather see more advances made toward wind turbines with gas back-up.... As well as solar.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

There was a big discussion on talk radio today about nuclear power plants; the expense, safety, environmental issues, etc. It was interesting. Personally, I would rather see more advances made toward wind turbines with gas back-up.... As well as solar.

Wind and solar would be nice, but they are never likely to generate very much of our total power. They're both really, really inefficient and quite expensive for the modest watts they make. Someday, if there are some breakthroughs in solar technology, it may play a bigger role. Wind power will probably never work out. Wind farms are turning out to be maintenance nightmares and the winds are just too variable to count on. It's only really feasible in certain places. For the next couple decades at least, they'll account for 1 or 2 percent of power production, and no more.

Out west here we have hydroelectric... which has been wonderful... and geothermal is great... but those only work in certain special places, of course.

It's really too bad that we didn't make a greater investment in nuclear 20 or 30 years ago. We wouldn't need to be burning so much coal and gas now, which is just flat going to be the answer for the foreseeable future.

So far this thing in Japan ought to be viewed as an advertisement for nuclear power, not a scare-story, IMHO. They had their reactor hit with what has to be considered the penultimate worst-case scenario, and they have been able to keep the thing pretty well controlled, all things considered. It was designed to withstand a 8.0 earthquake and it survived a 9.0. It was designed to withstand a 5-meter tsunami and it survived a 15-meter tsunami. Yes... they've got a serious problem over there, but they're doing a fine job of managing it, and the thing still hasn't gone critical. The only real problem has been getting power restored so they can circulate cooling water.

That Fukushima plant was even designed to withstand a direct hit by an airliner. Apparently, it sits in the glide slope for an airport. So... they designed in an extra-heavy containment dome that could get hit by a crashing airliner and survive.

Reactors in this country simply don't have nearly the same risks... we don't have to put them in tsunami-risk areas. Obviously, they can be built to survive strong earthquakes. If a reactor can be built to survive what happened there... it can survive anywhere.

[Remali]

Quote: "Wind and solar would be nice, but they are never likely to generate very much of our total power. They're both really, really inefficient and quite expensive for the modest watts they make."

That is why the gas back-up. ;) Nuclear is still waaaay more expensive than wind and solar combined.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...] Nuclear is still waaaay more expensive than wind and solar combined.

Not true. That's what the anti-nuclear people say, but there's no real numbers to back it up. Nuclear power, per-kilowatt, is pretty cheap.

Solar power is the most expensive per kilowatt/hour, and wind is pretty close thereafter. Those big windmill towers are expensive to build and maintain, and they generate very little power for the money. Solar panels pretty much never pay for themselves.

Hydroelectric power is relatively cheap, but it's not like those huge dams are built for free, either. There's an enormous capital investment to build a dam with a hydro power plant. Not unlike a nuke plant.

[Tiz]

I've always thought it would be a good idea to equip homes in places like the Southwest with solar energy panels. In places where the wind blows, windmills. Just in an assistance capacity, not relying on it as a primary source of energy. Seems like that would free up gas, and coal power for the rest of the country, and reduce our country's energy consumption overall.

It's too bad that individual solar, or wind, set ups are so still so expensive, because they make much more sense to me than utility companies, or the government, trying to make renewable energy 'plants' work in a cost effective, and consumer affordable way.

[natisha]

There are a few wind farms around here. You'll see the huge towers for miles. They only supply the local area. They have to be shut down if it's too windy & don't work if there's not enough wind. They have to be a certain distance from buildings because they make a constant noise that drives people nuts.

[offgridgirl]

Wind and solar would be nice, but they are never likely to generate very much of our total power. They're both really, really inefficient and quite expensive for the modest watts they make.

NO No NO!!!:mad::mad::mad::mad::nono::nono::nono::nono:: nono:
How would you know? Do you any data to back-up this statement!
Do you live off the grid?? I take great exception to someone who has no clue as to the power that can be generated by the sun and wind!!

THEY ARE HIGHLY EFFICIENT and not expensive compared to Nuclear!!:nono::nono::nono:

They do generate a lot of power if everyone had a set of panels!!

As for wind...there is maintenance but it just not that much compared to the expense of Mining coal or Hydro-electric.

[WashingtonBay]

They also make people type really loud...

Yikes! I'm interested in this... but let's go easy on the poor reader's eyes, eh? :cool:

[Remali]

You're wrong Ragnar. I wish I could find a link to the program I listened to....

[Tiz]

I think RD is referring to solar power being mass produced, not personal solar panels.

http://oregoncatalyst.com/2265-Market-Intervention-Overkill.html

[offgridgirl]

My WAY OF LIFE has been insulted!! ....I think I have the RIGHT to YELL!!

[offgridgirl]

I think RD is referring to solar power being mass produced, not personal solar panels.l (http://oregoncatalyst.com/2265-Market-Intervention-Overkill.html)

HUH??? What is a personal solar panel???
As far as I know all panels are massed produced

[offgridgirl]

Solar power is the most expensive per kilowatt/hour, and wind is pretty close thereafter. Those big windmill towers are expensive to build and maintain, and they generate very little power for the money. Solar panels pretty much never pay for themselves.

I gonna need numbers on this statement!! How do calculate that??? Wanna know what it "costs" us for solar??? or wind?? PM me...I run some numbers for ya....

It certainly isn't BILLIONS of dollars to build a nuclear power plant!!!

[WashingtonBay]

My WAY OF LIFE has been insulted!! ....I think I have the RIGHT to YELL!!


May be offgrid... but let me tell ya, it doesn't make you look right, just loud.

It's just a tip, if you're actually trying to convince people ;)

[Tiz]

HUH??? What is a personal solar panel???
As far as I know all panels are massed produced

I think if you calm down a little, you may be able to read better.:)

[Remali]

Actually the program I listened to was talking mainly about nuclear power plants, the cost, etc.... and then they were discussing wind turbines backed up with gas.... It was really a good program and very informative....

I agree with you offgridgirl..... I would like to see this country utilize more solar and wind energy! :)

I think offgrid is calm..... lol. She just wants Ragnar to back up his numbers....

[natisha]

I don't have any numbers but maybe this will help poor defenseless RD.;)
Solar panel efficiency

Posted by Solar energy guru | Filed under Solar energy facts (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/category/solar-energy-facts/)

One thing that people who scoff at solar power (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/industry/solar-power-system/) like to point out is that solar panel (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/industry/thin-film-solar-panels/) efficiency averages only 20%. What that means is that most photovoltaic (PV) panels convert only about 20% of the captured solar energy (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/solar-energy-advantages-and-limitations/) to electricity. Even the most advanced designs using silicon are only able to operate at around 40% efficiency.
When it comes to converting that energy to light, the efficiency actually ends up being dramatically lower. Let’s look at what happens if the solar panel (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/solar-panel/) efficiency starts at 20%. That energy starts as direct current which must be converted over to alternating current to be used in the home. This conversion process loses another 20% of the resulting energy. This alternating current now goes on to an incandescent lightbulb which is typically only 5% efficient. From all the original solar energy captured, you end up with only a fraction of usable energy.
Solar panel efficiency is obviously poor when it comes to lighting up our homes. Using the sunlight directly through daylighting techniques would use approximately 80% of the sunlight available – clearly much more efficient than first converting the solar energy into electricity. The most intelligent way to utilize solar energy is to make use of direct sunlight through daylighting and passive solar heating technologies and then using the highest efficiency solar panels (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/tag/solar-panels/) for the rest of our energy needs.
Scientists who work on solar panel efficiency believe that the 40% level is the highest efficiency that can be achieved with the standard silicon materials in most solar cells (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/industry/solar-cells/). Instead of focusing on making them more efficient, the current focus is on how to manufacture PV panels less expensively. However, new technologies have recently been developed that may make solar panels that are much less expensive while achieving an incredible 80% efficiency.

Steve Novack of Idaho National Laboratories has come up with a unique way of creating a cheap, foldable solar panel that has so far topped all records for solar panel efficiency. This new technology utilizes nanotechnology by printing the material’s surface with tiny nano-antennae. These nano-antennae capture infrared radiation which is the part of the solar energy normally utilized with traditional photovoltaic panels but the nano-antennae are able to harness much more than the silicon solar cells.
The only problem with this new technology is that so far there isn’t any way to use the energy being captured. The scientists are now working on putting a mini-capacitor into each tiny antenna. That means that each separate antenna would have its own little AC/DC converter. They believe that they can do this while maintaining the solar panel efficiency and keeping the price of the panel inexpensive.
Another new technological development for improving solar panel efficiency has been developed by researchers at MIT. They have created what they call a solar concentrator using inexpensive dyed glass and some fiber optic technology. The concentrator is supposed to be placed over traditional solar panels and assist in capturing more of the wavelengths of visible light.
The dyed glass absorbs the sunlight and then guides the energy generated to the edges of the glass sheet. Eventually researchers hope to replace the expensive silicon cells with the special sheets of glass that direct the energy similar to the way fiber optic technology does. This would allow for smaller amounts of silicon to be needed for generating the usable energy.
As scientists continue to work on increasing solar panel efficiency, the cost of switching to solar power (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/industry/solar-power-system/) will keep coming down. Although solar energy currently costs more than other types of energy to produce, new developments continue to bring prices down. Soon home solar power will be as cost effective as other forms of energy

[Tiz]

I think offgrid is calm..... lol.

Oh, OK. I thought all that yelling meant something else.

[offgridgirl]

May be offgrid... but let me tell ya, it doesn't make you look right, just loud.

It's just a tip, if you're actually trying to convince people ;)

Thanks for the tip....I am right thou...SOLAR/Wind power rocks!!:)

[offgridgirl]

I agree with you offgridgirl..... I would like to see this country utilize more solar and wind energy! :)

I think offgrid is calm..... lol. She just wants Ragnar to back up his numbers....

Thanks!! IF more individual people went off-grid then the cost would be more reasonable.

As it is, all my panels and batteries are paid twice over what others are still paying for. MY neighbors spent 100K just to run the "power lines" to their place. IT doesn't included hook-up fee, meter fee and then the monthly fee for power.

How is that cheaper than the $20K I have spent on my system which is still generating power and will be for years and years....

Why is so hard to understand that generating your own power doesn't not mean your life is deficient or somehow lower level than the rest of the world. We CHOOSE a simple lifestyle but we could have an air conditioning/heating. We choose to have a lower carbon footprint so that the children will have a better world. :cowboy:

[WashingtonBay]

Thanks for the tip....I am right thou...SOLAR/Wind power rocks!!:)

I'm actually on your side, I think it should be used more, especially for residential power needs. I'm a huge fan of it. I'm just really turned off by screaming formatting. It doesn't help make a point. It makes me not read it at all. Like a bright glaring light, I just look away.

Just sayin is all...

Thanks!! IF more individual people went off-grid then the cost would be more reasonable.True. And I think the idea of decentralizing power has some wisdom to it. And independence and self-sufficiency, which I like.

MY neighbors spent 100K just to run the "power lines" to their place. IT doesn't included hook-up fee, meter fee and then the monthly fee for power.OK - but you are on a fairly remote island. ;) Most folks don't pay near that much for initial electric hookup. Perhaps close to your 20 grand though... competitive.

Why is so hard to understand that generating your own power doesn't not mean your life is deficient or somehow lower level than the rest of the world. We CHOOSE a simple lifestyle but we could have an air conditioning/heating. We choose to have a lower carbon footprint so that the children will have a better world. :cowboy:

I don't really believe in carbon footprints, but I can dig leading a simple lifestyle if you like. I don't think anyone insulted that. I think the question is, will entire cities really be able to live well on this model. I don't think they can. We'll see.

[offgridgirl]

OK - but you are on a fairly remote island. ;) Most folks don't pay near that much for initial electric hookup. Perhaps close to your 20 grand though... competitive.

But that is part of the cost to "run" electricity to your house! If we have to compare apples to apples, that is part of the cost of getting the power from "where it generated" to "where it is used" While a lot of you didn't "pay" for it cuz it was already there, but it is part of the cost.

[offgridgirl]

One thing that people who scoff at solar power (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/industry/solar-power-system/) like to point out is that solar panel (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/industry/thin-film-solar-panels/) efficiency averages only 20%. What that means is that most photovoltaic (PV) panels convert only about 20% of the captured solar energy (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/solar-energy-advantages-and-limitations/) to electricity. Even the most advanced designs using silicon are only able to operate at around 40% efficiency.
When it comes to converting that energy to light, the efficiency actually ends up being dramatically lower. Let’s look at what happens if the solar panel (http://poweredbysolarpanels.com/solar-panel/) efficiency starts at 20%. That energy starts as direct current which must be converted over to alternating current to be used in the home. This conversion process loses another 20% of the resulting energy. This alternating current now goes on to an incandescent lightbulb which is typically only 5% efficient. From all the original solar energy captured, you end up with only a fraction of usable energy.

But the energy is FREE!! It didn't cost anything...so if we get something, only20% it is still better than paying for coal to be dug-up or nuclear radiation...which by the way costs billions every time there is an"accident"!!

[Remali]

Natisha.... that is exactly why I stated (and the program also stated) WITH gas back-up. For wind and solar energy. With gas back-up during certain times, it is 100% efficient. ;)

Also with nuclear, you have the enormous cost of building the plant, and then the high cost of storing the waste...etc. Not to mention safety issues.

[Tiz]

Why is so hard to understand that generating your own power doesn't not mean your life is deficient or somehow lower level than the rest of the world.

It isn't hard to understand. In fact, I didn't see anything here that could have inspired this comment.

[offgridgirl]

Wind and solar would be nice, but they are never likely to generate very much of our total power. They're both really, really inefficient and quite expensive for the modest watts they make.

I didn't see anything here that could have inspired this comment.

Read back and look at your own comments,off the topic, Tiz...you made fun of the whole thread by down playing the real threat of radiation...... FYI I don't need to be told to calm down..by anyone,ever!

[WashingtonBay]

http://web.me.com/bkmarcus/bkmarcus/blog/images/dictionary/nonsequitur.jpg

[JackieB]

I think if you calm down a little, you may be able to read better.:)

Unfortunately Tiz, there's no way to make a statement like yours above without sounding condescending. I'm guessing that isn't your intention. When you told me the other day that my hysteria was impacting my ability to understand what I was reading, I was quite offended although we did clear the air up a bit afterwards.

It's not always easy to participate in this section of the forum, I know. I offended a forumer so greatly, without any intention of course, that I don't expect that I'll ever hear from that person again (which definitely makes me feel bad).

Just my two cents.

[WashingtonBay]

Any JackieB's friendly debating tips for those who type in huge fonts?

I'm the first one who suggested offgrid should 'dial it back a notch'. Is all the error here ours? Just trying to be fair here.

Not sure who you mean in your example.

on edit... btw - I wouldn't expect to see RD back to debate or concede his earlier posts this weekend. Maybe... but I hear he's got a buddy out to the beach house, and so he may not check back in here till Monday.

[Tiz]

Read back and look at your own comments,off the topic, Tiz...you made fun of the whole thread by down playing the real threat of radiation...... FYI I don't need to be told to calm down..by anyone,ever!

I didn't "make fun" of the threat of radiation, and I thought we were talking about solar power now. My comment related to that part of the conversation.

Does your government run health care system have Prozac on back order, or something?

[WashingtonBay]

OK Tiz. That part was insulting. But you know that. :whack:

How about a little "Don't be an ass about it" from both of you. OK?

Because I can actually tell both of you to calm down... at least in your expressions here. Can't control what you shout at the screens. :D

[Tiz]

Unfortunately Tiz, there's no way to make a statement like yours above without sounding condescending. I'm guessing that isn't your intention. When you told me the other day that my hysteria was impacting my ability to understand what I was reading, I was quite offended although we did clear the air up a bit afterwards.

It's not always easy to participate in this section of the forum, I know. I offended a forumer so greatly, without any intention of course, that I don't expect that I'll ever hear from that person again (which definitely makes me feel bad).

Just my two cents.

It does sound condescending, doesn't it? I was aiming for a humorous way to direct offgrid to read my post, which was misunderstood by her, and with lots of exclamation points. Missed the mark, I see.

[Remali]

I guess some people cannot have a discussion without being condescending and being insulting....
that was really uncalled for Tiz.

[Tiz]

OK Tiz. That part was insulting. But you know that. :whack:

How about a little "Don't be an ass about it" from both of you. OK?

Because I can actually tell both of you to calm down... at least in your expressions here. Can't control what you shout at the screens. :D

The Prozac part, or the part that Jackie didn't like?

[WashingtonBay]

The Prozac part.

[Tiz]

Sorry, Offgrid. That wouldn't have sounded insulting in person. At least, I don't think it would have.

Remali, please. You aren't on very solid ground there.

[Remali]

Yeah Tiz.... as usual you are the one on not very solid ground as I see it. Play nice now. ;)

[offgridgirl]

Does your government run health care system have Prozac on back order, or something?

What is not offensive about that statement? You have offended me...

[Tiz]

What is not offensive about that statement? You have offended me...

If I'd said that to most people I know, they would have called me a smart alec, or worse, and we would have both had a laugh about it.

I already apologized once. I apologize a second time. I'm sorry I've offended you.

[JackieB]

It does sound condescending, doesn't it? I was aiming for a humorous way to direct offgrid to read my post, which was misunderstood by her, and with lots of exclamation points. Missed the mark, I see.

Thanks, Tiz. That works for me. I appreciate it.

[natisha]

I apologize too. Not sure for what but this thread has made me feel guilty.

[WashingtonBay]

I think everyone was cranky last night.

Good morning! :coffee:

[natisha]

Can I be your bro's buddy at the Lake House?

Sorry-Beach House

[WashingtonBay]

Heh... I am not getting involved in that, but you should know the beach house is not on a lake. It's on salt water.

[natisha]

Heh... I am not getting involved in that, but you should know the beach house is not on a lake. It's on salt water.That means sharks :eek: & poison spikey things:eek:

No matter, I can avoid the water;)

[WashingtonBay]

The sharks are very small...

[mare]

The sharks are very small...

With the exception of one, possibly? ;)

(Sorry, RD, couldn't help myself)

[Remali]

Well, this certainly is not very reassuring....

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/03/26/gaps-raditation-monitoring-uncovered/

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Heh... No dangerous sharks ~or~ spikey poisonous things around these parts.