How do I feel about this?

[Palogal]

Odd question huh?

Well here's the background...
A student of mine was at a show at our barn. I was not there due to prior commitment. She's the girl that has the 3 year old Warmblood and is doing GREAT.

Anyway we're just barely starting to teach him canter cues and we're starting with lateral movement to teach him to engage his hips. So my student was riding and asked for the lateral move, the horse threw a little bit of a fit and was then compliant. The other instructor at the barn ran over to her and told her to whip him and kick him harder and make him go, apparently it was quite the spectacle she made according to other people that were there. Her mother told this woman , "We don't beat our horse and he does just fine." The issue was dropped.

Tonight I see the other instructor at the barn and she asks if she can take a lesson with me. I'm torn because I never got the feeling this person had any sort of respect for me. So, I'm kind of wondering if this is a way for her truly to learn, or if she just wants to prove herself.

[Apaches Mom]

I would take it as a chance to finally show her how its SUPPOSE to be done. Without knowing the person/situations, I'd give her the benefit of the doubt and try to show her a different/better way of training. Maybe she's seeing how much your accomplishing and wants to figure out how you do it!

[Ryderd65]

I'd ask her directly why the sudden interest in your instruction and go from there.

[WashingtonBay]

I don't know what you should think, but from what I know about you, if you were asking the same thing of her, you'd have an ulterior motive.

[Palogal]

Oh come on WB, I'm not that nasty.

If I was asking someone for a lesson which I was paying for, I would ask someone who I really believed could teach me. Besides, I would not spend money to be an *ss*ole, I can do that for free :)

[Palogal]

She's one of those people who's hard to read. Say what you will about me but I'm not two-faced. If anyone wanted to know what I thought of them I'd tell them and not pretend something else.

I think Ryder may be right, I should ask her what the sudden interest is.

She supposedly went to school to be an instructor...the same school the trainer I grew up with went to. I'm a little curious about that in and of itself.

[WashingtonBay]

Oh come on WB, I'm not that nasty.

If I was asking someone for a lesson which I was paying for, I would ask someone who I really believed could teach me. Besides, I would not spend money to be an *ss*ole, I can do that for free :)

I didn't say you were nasty, you just seem to like to ask rhetorical questions that aren't really rhetorical questions at all, they're setting us up to hear how much better you are than the other trainers in your area, who you heard said ______ stupid thing.

It's a pattern. Maybe this other trainer wants a lesson, maybe she doesn't. Meet with the lady. I happen to think most of us have something to learn from every experience. Maybe she does too. :)

[vicklynn]

I say, give her the lesson, IF at any point she does not follow your lesson, especially IF its on one of your horses, tell her the lesson is over. IF she wants to continue, tell her that she needs to follow your instructions.
I hope it is to learn something from you. Give her the benefit of the doubt.

[Palogal]

No, I would not let her ride one of mine. Although admittedly I've never seen her ride for more than a few minutes, she allows her students,even the ones who know better, to be pretty rough on the mouth. She rides Western, which really makes no difference I don't think.

[alittleoffkey]

If you ride western well, then you shouldn't ever want any contact with a horse's mouth. That was the worst part of equitation lessons for me - I had to have contact with the horse I rode's mouth, or at least be very, very close to it all the time.

I'd ask her why she's suddenly interested. Maybe she does want to see how to do it right. :cowboy:

[Kowgirlkate]

Um, being a student, don't you haveta prove what you already know? Lol, isnt that why students pass or fail? Just cuz she's hard to read shouldnt make you automatically suspicious she wants to make you look bad, she might just wanna try english and that's your thing so maybe it's a convenience for her.

[Dakota Sunrise]

If you ride western well, then you shouldn't ever want any contact with a horse's mouth.


I'm not sure that's exactly true. If you're talking about Western pleasure, or reining, etc. then you are right, no contact. But Western riding isn't just pleasure horses who jog slower then my horses walk and lope with their head almost touching the ground. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with that type of a horse, some of the slower gaits look very comfy to ride.:) (Although I will admit that I hate the unnatural look of a pleasure horse's lope- the ones that go really slow in that hoppy kind of gait with their head wayyyyy low. But to each his own.) But that alone does not define western riding. At least not to me.

What about barrel racing? Pole Bending? Or any speed event like that? In those sports game reins are used- a short, one piece rein and you ride two handed (except when you circle a barrel, then you drop the outside rein and grab the horn). You need contact with your horses mouth for most of your pattern, except the run home where you give your horse his head and let him go as fast as he can.

My mare and I are as western as they come, at least I like to think we are!:D (we just jump for fun, we are definately not very English, lol). But I ride her two handed and keep light contact with her mouth 90% of the time. If I were to ride her on a loose rein, one handed (neck reining), at any gait except the walk when schooling, she would be very confused and not responsive. She wouldn't know what I was asking her to do.
She has lots of get up and go to her and her gaits are fast. I had to work hard to teach her the meaning of "easy trot", and she still needs to master a lope. I'm teaching her to respond to voice commands, so she can whoa without bit preasure (and she will at the walk and trot mostly), and she'll trot without being squeezed/kicked, etc. I ride her in just a full cheek snaffle, but I need to have some contact with her mouth most of the time to keep her in check.
She's fast, agile, high strung, and quite the handful. I will freely admit that she needs more training (and we're working on it- I know barrel horses should be able to remain calm undersaddle and be schooled at slow gaits too), but I don't ever expect her to be like a pleasure horse. Both are western horses, but have two very different jobs and goals. I'm cool with that, I just don't like it when all western horses are thought of as pleasure types. Some western horses can be neck reined and ridden with no mouth contact, my gelding can 90% of the time. But some need to be, or respond better, when ridden two handed with some contact. I think it just depends on the horse, his level of training, his temperment, and his discipline (barrels, pleasure, trail, etc.), and not whether they are ridden English or Western.

I hope none of that sounded rude, it definately was not intended that way.:) That's all just my opinion!:D

To the O.P., sorry for getting off topic! My bad.:innocent:

[Palogal]

:mad: Dakota hyjacked my thread...;)

[Dakota Sunrise]

Shame on me.:( My bad.:innocent: I'm very sorry.:cry::p If you feel the need, go right ahead and fish-slap me ------>:trout: :D :D :D

[Palogal]

LOL, that's going to get you some "patience post" time Dakota...you must learn to focus.:cool:

[Dakota Sunrise]

I have no patience, and no focus.:innocent: In fact I forget what I was supposed to be focusing on!:p

[alittleoffkey]

I despise western pleasure, and have no problem saying it out loud (or on the internet, no horse should get points for looking beyond lame ;)). My horses move like normal horses, but I consider not being able to control them with anything beyond neck reining, my seat change and a little bit of bit contact on rare occasions a failure in their training on my part - they're not finished until they respond like that. I only ride trails, for my own pleasure. :)

Just my :2cents: - it's how I was taught to ride and train, how my cousin (who taught me to ride) was taught to ride and train, how my Papa was taught to ride and train, how his parents rode and trained... so in my mind it's the 'right' way. :cowboy: No offense taken Dakota, everyone rides differently. :)

[zoel_222]

I have to disagree with you there Dakota. Me and Whitney do barrels and I have no contact on the reins unless I need to correct her about something. It's not just "pleasure types" it's (mostly) all western horses who have a really loose rein. The only time I have contact on the rein is when I need to correct my horse or when I'm riding a green horse. 90% of my cues are seat and leg, 8% are my finger tips pressing against their withers and 2% is contact on the reins. I think it's just a matter of training on which horses respond better with rein contact. Green broke poorly trained Chica used to only listen when I had two hands on the reins, but after retraining her this past year she almost never needs them. I just don't see the point in pulling on a horses mouth when you don't have to. I think it looks sloppy and uncomfortable for the horse. I also don't keep my horses head shoved to the ground. I agree with you that it looks weird and unnatural. For some WP horses it IS natural, but some horses just have to be trained to keep it there. I let my girls put their head where it's comfortable for them. Of course if they decide they want to put their head raised up to the moon I'll have them lower it, but not so their nose is dragging in the dirt. ;) I honestly think if Beauty gets "confused" when you don't have constant pressure on her mouth you should go back to the basics, do some retraining and get her mouth softened.

[zoel_222]

I agree with you ALOK! :)

[cloedoll]

I agree with Ryder, ask her straight up, no harm in that.

[alittleoffkey]

:trout: We stole poor palo's thread. :whistle: *sneaks off*

[cloedoll]

I agree with you that it looks weird and unnatural. For some WP horses it IS natural, but some horses just have to be trained to keep it there.Agreed. I think it's more of a conformation thing as well. Laredo's conformation is downhill and oh my whenever you let him have his head he's like a peanut roller! Hehe, I wonder if Taylor has any pictures, it's so funny & cute! =P

Tayla, I hope you don't me talking about your cute pony, hehe.

Palo, sorry for posting a post that isn't for your thread really, heh.

[Joey A]

If you ask me... Charge full price, tell her it's full price, and also tell her you are not concerned in feedback on your instruction styles. If she want's a lesson, she can have a lesson, but she's gonna have to keep her mouth shut and take the lesson, because I (you) don't care what your previous experiance is or what it tells you.

"If you want to buy me lunch we can chat about the differences in our methods, but I get paid to give direction, not answer questions."

There's a difference between asking "why should my leg be there" and "is my leg right." One won't get a response, and the other will ellicit direction.

[WashingtonBay]

I dunno. I guess I think if you're walking into a lesson with that much of a chip on your shoulder and think she may have a similar chip on hers.... I'd just say forget it, beyond this point there be dragons.

[Dakota Sunrise]

ALOK and Zoel:

This is an interesting topic, one that I feel a little bad for starting here on poor palogal's thread.:innocent::( I promise this is the last time I'll post about something other then the original topic on this thread.:DE

Before I get started, I just want to say (again) that none of this is being said in a rude tone and I'm not fighting.:) I agree with some of the stuff that you guys said too. I'm just saying my opinion, and discussing this topic. :D Ok, moving on:

I admit freely that Beauty does need more training, and we pretty much did go back to the basics. (Which is why she's ridden in just a full cheek snaffle and we've been working on simple transitions, flexing, circles, etc.) When I first got her she didn't even know how to trot, the second you asked her to she would take off and bolt.:eek: She didn't whoa, she didn't back, and if you actually could hold her in a trot it was SO fast and bouncy I almost couldn't post fast enough to keep up with her. Now she knows all of those things and much more.

Now she has two trots- her working trot and her easy trot (I taught her that, and it took FOREVER:rolleyes:). I have different cues so she knows which I'm asking for, and most of the time I can get her to slow down if she's going too fast by saying "easyyyy" and maybe gentle bit preasure if needed. Don't get the wrong idea, I'm not constanly pulling on her mouth. I just have my reins short enough so that I just barely have contact with her, if I need it. For example, when I ask her to whoa, I don't just pull back on her reins. I use my seat and a voice command first, and then gentle bit preasure if I have to.
I do ride two handed because she responds much better to plow reining- she doesn't even know how to neck rein (her old owners never taught her) and I'm not real worried about teaching her that yet. We have more important things to worry about at the moment. I try to prioritize (sp?) everything I need to do with her.:)
I did ride her in a halter one time though, and she wasn't too bad.:cool: So constant contact isn't needed with her all the time. She needs a happy medium.:p

On the other hand, I ride my gelding on a loose rein, with no contact (enless he's misbehaving) and neck reining most of the time. I've ridden him in just a halter and sometimes I don't even hold the reins at all, lol. But his temperment is completely different than Beauty's, and he's also older (19). Granted she is 12 so she doesn't have the excuse of being young and green, but she did have a few setbacks in her life and a complete lack of training before I got her, so she is still green on a lot of things.

So, my point is, both of my horses are western, but both need to be ridden differently. Beauty responds better to plow reining and needs more mouth contact for most things (when we're walking or on the trail I mostly keep her on a loose rein, but for schooling it's different), and Dakota neck reins and doesn't need much if any contact at all.
Most of the English riders I see on youtube, etc have their reins much shorter then pleasure-type (and I'm calling them that because of a lack of a better name, I know it's not just people who show western pleasure) western riders and usually have contact with their horse's mouth- not always pulling, just gentle contact. Their horse's tend to trot and canter faster then western horses and that is perfectly ok. But if I ride my western horse two handed with contact because she does better that way, and her trot and lope is just as fast as theirs if not faster, then I get told that she looks like or should be an English horse (and I have been told that before).
I just don't understand why one kind of riding is exceptiable (sp?) in one discipline, but not in another. Like I said before, I think it all depends on temperment and level of training, and not whether they are ridden English or Western. But that's just my opinion.:D

[WashingtonBay]

I just don't understand why one kind of riding is exceptiable (sp?) in one discipline, but not in another. Like I said before, I think it all depends on temperment and level of training, and not whether they are ridden English or Western. But that's just my opinion.:D

Mostly it's the bit. It's acceptable to ride a snaffle bit on contact. Western or English.

Curb and leverage bits are designed and intended to be applied then released, and ridden on a slack rein.

The exception to this of course are advanced double bridles used in Dressage and Saddle seat. The curb there is certainly ridden on contact.

Barrel racing is full of exceptions and differences from other kinds of Western riding.

Back to the topic... It seems like correct use of the reins should be part of any lesson, and something a trainer should be able to teach. I'm responding to the idea that palo didn't want her on her horses because she might be heavy on the reins. That's what riding lessons are FOR. Teaching riding. :)

[Dakota Sunrise]

Mostly it's the bit. It's acceptable to ride a snaffle bit on contact. Western or English.

So that's how you spell "acceptable".. I was way off on that one.:innocent: I am so lame at spelling, lol.:p


Curb and leverage bits are designed and intended to be applied then released, and ridden on a slack rein.

The exception to this of course are advanced double bridles used in Dressage and Saddle seat. The curb there is certainly ridden on contact.

Barrel racing is full of exceptions and differences from other kinds of Western riding.

How come you are always so good at explaining things, and can do it while being brief and to the point? Everything you say makes sense!:D That is a skill I need to learn, lmbo.:p

If I had the "back to topic" smiley I would use it here, but unfortunately I don't.:( Can I maybe put in a request for it?:D



On the original subject, I agree with walkin fool.

[WashingtonBay]

:)

I'll put in a request for the 'back to topic' smiley :D

[Palogal]

That's it! I'm putting you all on the hot walker!

Nah really.... I really don't have a problem with her, I don't really talk to her. I'm confused because she dramatically corrects my student, that she knows is my student and then wants a lesson from me... I guess I'm reading too much into it.

hmmm. The lesson horses she usess are all riden in tom thumbs (NOT MY CHOICE) and she allows them to be waaaay in their mouths, even the ones that are good enough to know better. When I teach Western lessons, I teach them to not do that because eons ago, when I learned pleasure riding that's what I was taught. Right or wrong, I woud not let her ride one of my horses until I see her on a lesson horse riding with correct contact. Maybe she knows, maybe she doesn't.

[zoel_222]

DS, I think you've done an awesome job with Beauty. You guys have made so much progress together I hope I didn't offend you. No one's saying that you're not doing a good job training her, because she is REALLY coming along! I just have to agree with ALOK when a (western) horse who doesn't neck rein and needs constant contact on the mouth is not broke. For ME that is my number one priority. When I'm training a horse if their mouth isn't soft and light as ever I won't move on to further steps in their training until it is. But that's just me. :p I just noticed that in your videos it looks like there is a whole lot of rein pressure, but maybe I'm mistaken. Sorry to hijack your thread, Palo.


Back to topic....

What's the big deal? Just give her a lesson. If she starts giving you crap and tries to give YOU a lesson, tell her "Hey, I'm not paying you for a lesson, you're paying ME for a lesson, let's try to keep it that way. If you don't want to learn from me, why are you even here?"

I didn't say you were nasty, you just seem to like to ask rhetorical questions that aren't really rhetorical questions at all, they're setting us up to hear how much better you are than the other trainers in your area, who you heard said ______ stupid thing.


I agree with WB on this.

[Remali]

Huh?!! No contact with the bit in western?! Baloney! You definitely do have contact, you still have feel thru the reins to the bit on a loose rein.

Anyway, if it were me.....and she wanted to take lessons from me (this is the woman who said to whip a horse?!!), I would tell her to politely take a hike, I have no time for abusive riders and trainers....the whip is meant as an extension of the arm for cues, not to beat the daylights out of the horse. I would steer clear of her. But, that is what I would do....the decision is ultimately yours to decide.

[Palogal]

I guess I'll let it lie until it surfaces again. I will most likely see her tonight again. She claimes to have attened an instructor school that is well respected - which is where I'm a little confused. Then again, you can tell three people the same thing and it will be done three different ways and taken in 3 different directions so maybe she did and just didn't turn out as other students of that school.

[TheBadLands]

Give the lesson like any other lesson..

I've always been considered a "tough" instructor..

I dont know if its good or bad...but it's my way or the highway.

The funny thing is.. I teach kids who don't even know how to write their own name, let alone ride the first time. And they are still smart enough to know better than to argue. AND a lot of them are becoming some extremely effective riders. So go figure.