Getting the horse off the forehand

[Blue]

My whole life I've been taught to put a harsher bit on a horse (something twisted) and "see-saw" their heads down with my hands. I know this is wrong, because the horses are on the forehand. Can anyone simply explain how I can get a horse collected and off the forehand using my legs? It might be close to impossible on the computer...:doh: One of my friends, who I grew up riding with (same trainer), has recently started taking lessons with someone else. Today she told me that she's starting to learn how to get her horse collected without pulling on her mouth or using gadgets. Hopefully I'll be able to take some lessons with her new trainer soon, but for now money's an issue. I'll post a video in a minute, I got some of me cantering Blue today, not much, but it's something. I'm using the see-saw thing that I've always been taught to do. Will edit post when I upload the video.

[Palogal]

My whole life I've been taught to put a harsher bit on a horse (something twisted) and "see-saw" their heads down with my hands. I know this is wrong, because the horses are on the forehand. Can anyone simply explain how I can get a horse collected and off the forehand using my legs? It might be close to impossible on the computer...:doh: One of my friends, who I grew up riding with (same trainer), has recently started taking lessons with someone else. Today she told me that she's starting to learn how to get her horse collected without pulling on her mouth or using gadgets. Hopefully I'll be able to take some lessons with her new trainer soon, but for now money's an issue. I'll post a video in a minute, I got some of me cantering Blue today, not much, but it's something. I'm using the see-saw thing that I've always been taught to do. Will edit post when I upload the video.


NO NO HARD BITS NO WATERSKIING ON THE MOUTH!! NONONONONONONONONONONONONo!

You get the horse off of the forehand by engaging the hindquarters. Make the energy come from behind rather than pulling in front. You do lots and lots and lots of halts, transitions and lateral work to get the horse "firing on all four Cylinders"

walk-halt trot-halt canter-halt and if you have to throw some backing steps in there.

[Blue]

Yea, I know it's wrong, that's why I'm posting this. It's just what I've been taught since I was little and I didn't know it was wrong until a little while ago...I've just got to figure out how to teach myself how to get Blue to engage his hindquarters.

[Blue]

BTW, just to throw this out there, EVERYONE at my barn uses this 'method', so I've never heard of anyone saying it's wrong. We have over 20 riders.

[Palogal]

There are lots of trainers that use that. It's a way to achieve a false "on the bit" where the horse curves his neck, really just avoiding the harsh bit in his mouth. He's not engaging anything but doesn't he look pretty? I could stand my horse in side reins for an hour or two, and he would curve his neck and we could talk about how pretty he is too.

Good for you seeking out the right way to do it! True dressage is done slowly, one step at a time. Forward, Supple and finally submissive. Although the submission is really just a side effect of the suppleness and forward when it's applied correctly.

I don't mean to be snotty, I teach dressage and I get students that were taught that also, it's very frustrating to undo the rider and teach the horse to relax and flex without fear of a hard bit.

I would LOVE to see a video, to see where you are at.

[Blue]

I'm uploading the video now, I had it uploaded, but Youtube went all crazy on me and I'm trying to fix it, will have it up asap!

I'm glad I'm finally starting to understand all these terms - forehand, on the bit, engaging hindquarters, haha. A few months ago it was like a foreign language (it kind of still is...).

[Blue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JThJqRZWtQ0

There we go.

The quality is bad (I'm getting a new camera soon) and it's kind of far away, but like I said, atleast it's something. This doesn't really go with this topic, but if anyone wants to critique the cross rail jumps feel free to! I just started really jumping, I've been working on it a while, I taught myself and now I'm restarting with a trainer.

[alittleoffkey]

I'm so jealous! I can't wait until I have the cash to take dressage lessons! :D

[Palogal]

Okay, here is your first lesson!!!

Start him walking, a nice forward 4 beat walk and halt...a three part halt 1) your sit becomes still 2) your legs firm slightly and 3) the rein contact. When he is still release the bit pressure.

Walk on....halt again same process. If he's really a pig about it you can back 3 steps and halt again.

If you tape yourself doing that...I can be of more help!

Your homework: Get a nice halt without a "pull". Your hands move as the horse walks, the hands are still and hold for the halt. When he feels your hands become still, it suggests he stop moving.

[Palogal]

I'm so jealous! I can't wait until I have the cash to take dressage lessons! :D

Make a video we can do long distance virtual lessons!

[Blue]

Thanks Palogal! If it's not raining tomorrow (90% chance) I'll take my camera out there. :D

[HeartofSteel]

I don't disagree with Palogal but I do want to say something about walk-halt, trot-halt, canter-halt. This can all be very beneficial if done correctly but it takes a tremendous amount of riding and strength from both you and your horse to be able to do them without the horse completely throwing itself on it's forehand during the halt transition. Canter to halt is especially hard and I wouldn't attempt it until the horse has more strength or it won't help much of anything. Lots of regular transitions however are very good for strengthening the hind end, walk-trot-walk, trot-canter-trot (my fave but it gives you both quite a work out done correctly). Also, you can't have true throughness with the horse rounding and using his back unless you have forward movement and lots of it. I like an exercise call the bow-tie, if you want to PM me I will explain it on there because it's going to be kinda long lol.

[Mandzanita]

This is a great question, one that MOST equestrians struggle with on a daily basis. Consitently allowing your horse to travel on the forehand will get you into some trouble when you are trying to progress with your riding (ie sprawling stride, weak hind end and topline, absence of collection, sloppy stearing, ultra high/ultra low head carriage ect) BUT it's ALOT easier then the alternate... Now actually RIDING a horse's each stride and asking for collection and self carriage is the IDEAL way you would want a horse traveling....using the hind-end, working up through their back and into the bit. You want no harsh movements with your hands to get them to put their heads down, the head comming down is a RESULT of the self carriage. Teaching your horse how to carry him/herself is so much easier SAID than done and it takes YEARS for riders to really teach themselves AND their horses to travel in this way.

You must understand that a horse that's never been asked to collect and work through it's back will not have the proper muscles built to do this for long periods of time, so in the beginning, you will ask your horse in short increments of time. How to go about asking your horse?

I've always found it easier to ask at a sitting trot, that way I can use my hips and seat to push him up in front of me and when I'm posting I find it harder to do so when half the time I'm on the "up" part of the post...:) Having the horse at a collected and steady pace is key. Half halts are your friend :) I usually start by taking a good amount of contact with the rein (not a super short rein and in no way do I pull back). I hold this contact and then ask him to move forward into the bit by really squeezing with my seat, encouraging with my hips and a few bumps with my heels. The SECOND I feel him give to the bit, flex his poll and soften, I release. That doesn't mean I throw the rein away, I give him an inch of release and continue him on in a forward motion. At this point, my horse has to have constant reminders so I will continue the contact, push forward, release method every few strides.

It's kind of like this....when asking properly for the horse to carry himself, all of the power from the hind-end will be encourgaed to meet the wall you are making with the reins (the steady contact, not giving, not taking, just holding) Once the power meets the wall, the only way for the horse to obtain somekind of release is to round up his back and flex his poll (which will give you that pretty little dressage head set) He's making himself "smaller" within the limits you've set. Once you as the rider has given him that inch of release he is now carrying himself and no longer running arund on his front legs.

When a horse is carrying himself it almost feels like they are "growing up" in front of you and instead of riding a downhill slope you are riding an uphill slope. Most horses will need constant reminders until they've grown so accustomed to carrying themselves this way that they do it with little supervision (think FEI riders)

I really hope I didn't confuse you with all that explaining...

[Blue]

Wow Mandzanita, you helped ALOT! Thanks so much for writing all that out! Haha. I'll definentaly start working on this!

[Mandzanita]

No problem, i only hope it made sense...lol

I do want to add that when you start out you may feel like your horse is just bracing against your contact, but don't resort to pulling/fighting him or back to the dreaded see-saw :) Just keep incouraging him forward into your contact with your legs and seat, give him a little bit to figure out what he needs to do in order to get a release. It's also important that he get that release the SECOND he softens! Not a couple seconds after...:)

[Gypsy Rose]

What a wonderful explanation, Mandzanita! Correct half halts and working forward from the hindquarters is a constant struggle for me- especially now, since with Gypsy's arthritis, I never know if I'm doing it wrong, or if it's just her arthritis.

I haven't been able to take a lesson in about 13 years, so I pretty much have to police myself, lol!

I was taught how to put a horse on the bit correctly, but when you stop working with an instructor, it's really easy to get sloppy. Especially if your horse is either not getting it because you are messing up, the arthritis is messing it up or both. And no way of having a clue which of the problems it is, lol!

[fire1]

I'm still learning dressage too. I saw you do the same tihng i see me do in my video I made of myself, boy that was scary!

For proper haults sit your butt sown deep in your seat, do not use your reins and then they seem to halt much better, straiter and cleaner all the way around. Helps with my seat and balance thru the halt too. I hope that made since!

[JackieB]

It's kind of like this....when asking properly for the horse to carry himself, all of the power from the hind-end will be encourgaed to meet the wall you are making with the reins (the steady contact, not giving, not taking, just holding) Once the power meets the wall, the only way for the horse to obtain somekind of release is to round up his back and flex his poll (which will give you that pretty little dressage head set) He's making himself "smaller" within the limits you've set. Once you as the rider has given him that inch of release he is now carrying himself and no longer running arund on his front legs.


This is an excellent explanation! We need to frame this and put it up on a forum wall somewhere. :)

This is exactly what I've worked on with Buster over a period of about two years. We have achieved nice collection at walk/trot/canter as a result. Not like the Lippizan stallions perhaps, but definitely nice, collected, gaits.

The rest of Mandzanita's post was excellent, too. I always practice what she mentions about putting some pressure one the bit and then releasing when the horse achieves the desired position. I know I've got it when I can encourage Buster with my seat or legs and he holds his head in that approximately vertical position with just the lightest contact.

One thing that I have done that has helped tremendously is thousands of flexion exercises. I followed Clinton's admonition that "lateral leads to vertical" and do some lateral flexion exercises with Buster every single time we ride. Not enough for him to get bored, but enough so that we stay in practice and continue to refine.

[mtnmollie]

Great thread.

"This is an excellent explanation! We need to frame this and put it up on a forum wall somewhere. " Jackie B.

[Mandzanita]

This is an excellent explanation! We need to frame this and put it up on a forum wall somewhere. :)

I'm glad it made sense and helped! :):) It took me about 2 solid years of Dressage training a while back to get the idea of what it was to engage the hind-quarters and how to actually ask. People would always say, "Make him use his hind-end, you need to bring him up under you and into the bit" and I was like "How!!?? I know that's what my ultimate goal is but could ya let me in how how I go about asking him to do this ??" A good trainer of mine finally broke it down and explained it (alot better then I did might I add) and it totally clicked and made sense.

Of course some horses will make you work harder for it than others :) Good full body work-out though!

[IrisGreen]

This thread should be stickyed! lol I have seen this question over and over on H.com. How do I collect my horse, half halts, getting off or on the bit, asking to collect... the list goes on. This was a great explanation!! I need to print this out.... :)

[IrisGreen]

Mandzanita,

I just looked, even your dog is off the forehand! hehehe :)

[Mandzanita]

LOL, she sure is!! :) She likes to engage the hind-quarters quite a bit, it's as easy as the dangling of a treat. Wish I could dangle a carrot in front of my horse to get him off the forehand but unfortunately he'd probably do a hand-stand for it instead!

[Palogal]

Yes, good explanation...I'm so used to telling my students to "feel" this and "feel" that, I can't put it into words.