Is the high price of fuel...

[Tiz]

still because George Bush is taking care of his oil business cronies? I don't watch network news, or MSNBC, so I'm curious. Been hearing much about it on those sources?

[natisha]

I'm curious too. Didn't we go into Iraq to get their oil?

How about the price is high because we haven't been allowed to use our own & are still at the mercy of what goes on in the Middle East? Don't forget we're taxed per gallon.

[TLC97]

I think it might be now be Libya's fault and the fact we can't drill here after the Gulf issue. Wait maybe it is Japan's fault.

[Buckpoco]

I think there are numerous reasons...many that we will never even know about. I also think possibly that if we pay enough for fuel, then those opposed to drilling will allow it...just a thought.

I know that the price of fuel will surely keep us from traveling much with the horses. My friends just trailered (no horses even) from Georgia to Florida and back...fuel cost $1000...really frustrating.

[Remali]

Several reports on the News are saying the high gas prices are due to the Wall Street speculators. They have been saying this for quite awhile now.

http://progress-index.com/news/unrest-speculators-blamed-for-jump-in-gas-prices-1.1110806

[Buckpoco]

Several reports on the News are saying the high gas prices are due to the Wall Street speculators. They have been saying this for quite awhile now.

http://progress-index.com/news/unrest-speculators-blamed-for-jump-in-gas-prices-1.1110806


You are right, they have been saying this...so who do you believe?

[Remali]

Who do I believe.... I am leaning toward believing that it is the speculators causing the high prices.

[mare]

I think Bush is off the hook, finally, in most circles.

I thought we went to Iraq, in part to protect the oil supplies for the region and other countries... oh yeah, and some people were being tortured, killed, etc.

We (the U.S. oil companies) can't drill in the Gulf, but a Brazilian company can. Go figure.

I'm not sure about Libya. All I know is their leader used an umbrella in a garage (saw a photo). Is that bad luck, or is it just in houses that you shouldn't open one?

I think Japan is the reason we can't explore the feasibility of nuclear power.

Hmmm... does that just leave the speculators?

[Tiz]

We had an informative thread on speculating on oil a while back.

My question has been answered, I think. George Bush is gone, so the white hot hatred for him, and his oil cronies, for high fuel prices last time around is now proven unfair. And the mainstream media has just moved to blaming the next best bogeyman, Wall Street. Nothing about shutting down oil production in our country though, right?

It's interesting that President Obama's approval ratings are continuing to fall despite most of the media serving as his private propaganda tool. It's encouraging actually.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Well, it really isn't all that complicated. Supply is not keeping up with increases in demand worldwide... so the price creeps up. Then there's all that unrest throughout the middle east that makes the markets jumpy about future supplies.

There's an example of the moderating force that speculators serve in the market: given uncertainly about the future of the mid-east, they may start bidding up the futures prices... which slows the market and reduces amounts demanded... leaving more supply in inventory... which then softens the impact if future supplies are in fact restricted.

[Tiz]

Well, it really isn't all that complicated. Supply is not keeping up with increases in demand worldwide... so the price creeps up. Then there's all that unrest throughout the middle east that makes the markets jumpy about future supplies.

There's an example of the moderating force that speculators serve in the market: given uncertainly about the future of the mid-east, they may start bidding up the futures prices... which slows the market and reduces amounts demanded... leaving more supply in inventory... which then softens the impact if future supplies are in fact restricted.


All of this would change overnight if our country started it's own oil production again.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

All of this would change overnight if our country started it's own oil production again.

It would certainly help. We should also build 20 or 30 nuclear power plants. We need to regain all the lost ground since the virtual moratorium on new reactors since the 70's.

I'm actually of two minds on the domestic drilling thing. Yes... we can open up ANWR and the midwest shale deposits... and we'd have plenty of our own oil, enough at least to give "the finger" to the middle east with regard to oil. But then...

If you buy into the idea that oil is finite... or at the very least will become progressively more expensive to extract as time goes on... then there is a pretty fair argument that our long-term best interest demands that we should burn up ~their~ oil first. The sooner the Saudis and the the other arab nations run out of oil, the better. The whole world would benefit from having greater Arabia devoid of their death-grip on the world economy. Let them go back to being the 7th century savages that they have always been.

We would then be left with another 100 years of petrochemical products of our own...

[JackieB]

then there is a pretty fair argument that our long-term best interest demands that we should burn up ~their~ oil first.

Wouldn't make a bit of difference. That's not how business in a capitalist economy works, RD. This might be a good idea in Venezuela, but not the USA.

Oil drilled in the US will be sold wherever it can earn the most profit. It's a commodity that possesses comparable physical properties wherever it is drilled in the world (although there are a couple of types of crude oil), so it can likewise be sold anywhere in the world.

US oil companies do not have any responsibility to US consumers to sell us their oil. In fact, if they can earn more money for it elsewhere, they are "required" to sell it to that market so as to maximize shareholder value.

So, if we use up Middle East oil before drilling for ours, whatever we do extract will sell to whoever will pay the most for it. That could be US consumers, but at a very high price because demand will likely be super-high since oil will be getting scarce with Middle East oil depleted.

I don't have any problem with drilling for more oil in the US, but it's not going to affect world oil prices. When oil companies extract the crude, they'll sell it at a rate that earns the most the market can bear as it comes out. They will adjust production in a way that keeps from creating a large extra supply that could dampen price.

[Tiz]

Wouldn't make a bit of difference. That's not how business in a capitalist economy works, RD. This might be a good idea in Venezuela, but not the USA.

Oil drilled in the US will be sold wherever it can earn the most profit. It's a commodity that possesses comparable physical properties wherever it is drilled in the world (although there are a couple of types of crude oil), so it can likewise be sold anywhere in the world.

US oil companies do not have any responsibility to US consumers to sell us their oil. In fact, if they can earn more money for it elsewhere, they are "required" to sell it to that market so as to maximize shareholder value.

So, if we use up Middle East oil before drilling for ours, whatever we do extract will sell to whoever will pay the most for it. That could be US consumers, but at a very high price because demand will likely be super-high since oil will be getting scarce with Middle East oil depleted.

I don't have any problem with drilling for more oil in the US, but it's not going to affect world oil prices. When oil companies extract the crude, they'll sell it at a rate that earns the most the market can bear as it comes out. They will adjust production in a way that keeps from creating a large extra supply that could dampen price.

I don't agree with your last paragraph, Jackie. The last time the United States said it was going to expand exploration/drilling OPEC immediately dropped oil prices. They don't want more competition for their product.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Wouldn't make a bit of difference. That's not how business in a capitalist economy works, RD. This might be a good idea in Venezuela, but not the USA.

Oil drilled in the US will be sold wherever it can earn the most profit. It's a commodity that possesses comparable physical properties wherever it is drilled in the world (although there are a couple of types of crude oil), so it can likewise be sold anywhere in the world.

US oil companies do not have any responsibility to US consumers to sell us their oil. In fact, if they can earn more money for it elsewhere, they are "required" to sell it to that market so as to maximize shareholder value.

So, if we use up Middle East oil before drilling for ours, whatever we do extract will sell to whoever will pay the most for it. That could be US consumers, but at a very high price because demand will likely be super-high since oil will be getting scarce with Middle East oil depleted.

I don't have any problem with drilling for more oil in the US, but it's not going to affect world oil prices. When oil companies extract the crude, they'll sell it at a rate that earns the most the market can bear as it comes out. They will adjust production in a way that keeps from creating a large extra supply that could dampen price.

Oh yes! I agree, for the most part. You're completely right, in that oil is a totally "fungible" commodity. Fungibility means that it's basically impossible to distingish a particular source and trace it to an end product. It's like a swimming pool full of water. Some people are buying water from the pool and taking it out with buckets... and others are selling water to the pool and pouring it in with buckets. It's useless to try to identify which seller's water any buyer is buying. It's all the same pool and it's all mixed together.

The part where you're wrong is that ~all~ production contributes to the global supply. If the U.S. supplies more oil it will contribute to that supply and tend to reduce price globally. If more people start pouring buckets into the pool... the price of the buckets drawing out of the pool will decline. That's just how markets work.

[Buckpoco]

I wish we'd go to solar and wind.................if they wanted to I'm sure a relatively inexpensive method for using both could be found...

[natisha]

I wish we'd go to solar and wind.................if they wanted to I'm sure a relatively inexpensive method for using both could be found...Can't make spandex out of solar or wind.
I like spandex in my underwear.

If we had started our own oil production years ago all this oil stuff would be a non- issue.. It's dumb to say 'it will take 10 years to start up' then not doing anything. 10 years will pass on way or the other.

[Remali]

Agreed that we definitely need to utilize more wind and solar energy.

[Tiz]

I wish we'd go to solar and wind.................if they wanted to I'm sure a relatively inexpensive method for using both could be found...

"They" as in who? Using solar and wind is an individual choice you can make now.

[Tiz]

Agreed that we definitely need to utilize more wind and solar energy.


Then do.

[Remali]

lol..... did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? ;)
It's Spring, smile!

[Buckpoco]

"They" as in who? Using solar and wind is an individual choice you can make now.


Yup, it is, IF you are a MILLIONAIRE.....

[Buckpoco]

Can't make spandex out of solar or wind.
I like spandex in my underwear.

If we had started our own oil production years ago all this oil stuff would be a non- issue.. It's dumb to say 'it will take 10 years to start up' then not doing anything. 10 years will pass on way or the other.


OK...so ya give up wearing underwear?:innocent:

I for one DO NOT want nuclear energy. Hmmm, where did my cancer come from??? Nobody knows for sure but.....

[natisha]

OK...so ya give up wearing underwear?:innocent:I mostly already have-don't tell.

[Buckpoco]

I mostly already have-don't tell.


I just did too...hurts my robotic incisions LOL!

[natisha]

I just did too...hurts my robotic incisions LOL!You go Girl!!!:clap:

[Tiz]

lol..... did someone get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning? ;)
It's Spring, smile!

No, I didn't get up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. Those are called direct answers, or responses, Remali.

[Tiz]

Yup, it is, IF you are a MILLIONAIRE.....

B, so "they" must mean the government? You already know this, so this is just a reminder, "they" can't afford it either!

I'm sure entrepreneurs and inventors alike are scrambling trying to come up with something that will make wind and solar energy production affordable to more people. There is mucho money to be made there, for the right product.

[Buckpoco]

B, so "they" must mean the government? You already know this, so this is just a reminder, "they" can't afford it either!

I'm sure entrepreneurs and inventors alike are scrambling trying to come up with something that will make wind and solar energy production affordable to more people. There is mucho money to be made there, for the right product.

Yes, "they" is any entrepreneur who has the money to do it. We looked into solar for our house but it cost a mere $65,000...I'd love to be totally self-sufficient and tell the oil companies, electric companies to put their services "where the sun don't shine":innocent: I can dream, can't I?

[Tiz]

Yes, "they" is any entrepreneur who has the money to do it. We looked into solar for our house but it cost a mere $65,000...I'd love to be totally self-sufficient and tell the oil companies, electric companies to put their services "where the sun don't shine":innocent: I can dream, can't I?

What can cost so much about solar?!?!?!? Ridiculous.

How about a windmill?:)

[Buckpoco]

I doubt the town would let us put one up...they are huge. I've seen entire ridges of the in Pennsylvania...I think it has to be on a grand scale. I will look into private but this town approves of nothing...also haven't read much about private windmills.

Our neighbor went solar last year...cost her tens of thousands of dollars...
My chiropractor looked into it also...about $70,000...really stinks that it's so expensive. Solar really appeals to me.

[Tiz]

You can't see this your backyard? Aw, it's cute. I'd put one in.http://jalcnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Windmill.jpg

[Tiz]

Huge picture, huh.

[AppyLady]

We have an old Aermotor windmill just like that (in the front yard)! The tower is wooden and rickety and scary to climb.

[mare]

We have windmills for water out here. I like them. We also have wind farms. I don't mind them too much either. Our counties are deciding how many to allow so the views aren't completely full of them. Just something that has to be considered.

Funniest wind farm story I know is when a non-rancher bought a place from an older couple (no kids) and leased it to a wind farm company. Then he stocked it with those miniature Angus for two reasons. 1) They are kind of a fad for hobby farmers so there is a regional market and 2) he figured they wouldn't get schmucked by the fans on the windmills.

I know a few private homes that are using wind mills to at least supplement their power needs. Some use solar pumps for their remote wells.

[Rie]

I doubt the town would let us put one up...they are huge. I've seen entire ridges of the in Pennsylvania...I think it has to be on a grand scale. I will look into private but this town approves of nothing...also haven't read much about private windmills.

Our neighbor went solar last year...cost her tens of thousands of dollars...
My chiropractor looked into it also...about $70,000...really stinks that it's so expensive. Solar really appeals to me.

http://www.skystreamenergy.com/how-it-works/

They make smaller residential wind turbines. ;)

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

[...] Solar really appeals to me.

Well, of course solar is appealing. Unfortunately it just doesn't work. Maybe someday there will be a breakthrough that allows solar power to actually provide a useful amount of energy. But it doesn't yet.

The younger generation has been so polluted by eco-centric cartoons and then eco-wacko news... they just lose all sense of reality.

I'll believe that we're serious about power issues when we make a commitment to nuclear power. THAT is the answer that will really make a difference.

[AppyLady]

There are solar panels going up in large numbers around here. My little hometown has about half a dozen scattered around town. This is a good area for it, since we average about 360 days of sunshine a year. I'm seeing more and more panels on individual homes as well. There is some sort of government funding now, so instead of paying $65,000, a person only pays about $5000.

There was a proposal to put in a nuclear power plant about 45 miles from here. Unfortunately, the wreck in Japan put paid to that idea, even though the chances of an earthquake followed by a tsunami in this area are somewhere between slim and none.

[Buckpoco]

http://www.skystreamenergy.com/how-it-works/

They make smaller residential wind turbines. ;)

We'll have to look into that.

We are only 25 miles from Indian Point Nuclear Plant...hate it! And, it's built on a fault. We've had a couple of minor earthquakes here in my lifetime...I hate nuclear.

[Buckpoco]

There are solar panels going up in large numbers around here. My little hometown has about half a dozen scattered around town. This is a good area for it, since we average about 360 days of sunshine a year. I'm seeing more and more panels on individual homes as well. There is some sort of government funding now, so instead of paying $65,000, a person only pays about $5000.

There was a proposal to put in a nuclear power plant about 45 miles from here. Unfortunately, the wreck in Japan put paid to that idea, even though the chances of an earthquake followed by a tsunami in this area are somewhere between slim and none.

I don't think they are ready to built nuclear plants...they have no idea what to do when there is a problem...hate them.

[Tiz]

There is some sort of government funding now, so instead of paying $65,000, a person only pays about $5000.



Which is why solar installation is priced at $65,000. The government, in all of it's corrupted glory, pays solar companies exorbitant money for what they do. The free market is bypassed, taxpayers get hosed, and potential solar customers get discouraged from installing solar because of it's outrageous cost.

[mare]

Which is why solar installation is priced at $65,000. The government, in all of it's corrupted glory, pays solar companies exorbitant money for what they do. The free market is bypassed, taxpayers get hosed, and potential solar customers get discouraged from installing solar because of it's outrageous cost.

Add to that the ridiculous subsidies paid to ethanol producers. Shreeeeeik!

[Tiz]

And these items are merely the tip of the iceberg, which is why the T.E.A. Party was brought to life.

How about CRP payments to farmers? Conservation Reserve Program. Leave your ground fallow, and the government will cut you a check. I know people who purposely sought to buy land in CRP because the government payments would make the land payments, making the land free to the buyer. AAAAAAHHHHHHH!

[AppyLady]

I kinda wish we'd left our land in the CRP. It was nice to get that check every year, as opposed to getting nothing at all during the drought.

[Buckpoco]

A former co-worker's hubby has 3000 cows...whatever the reason, he gets one million per year in subsidies. Is that for leaving some ground unplanted, doing something special with the cows??? He's wealthy and when I that saw that I flipped. I have no idea what he does or doesn't do to get that much money...my money.

[mare]

Yeah, I'm not a fan of farmer welfare, or any business welfare. In my opinion, we haven't had a simple supply and demand, capitalistic system for generations.

[JackieB]

A former co-worker's hubby has 3000 cows...whatever the reason, he gets one million per year in subsidies. Is that for leaving some ground unplanted, doing something special with the cows??? He's wealthy and when I that saw that I flipped. I have no idea what he does or doesn't do to get that much money...my money.

I saw a ranting farmer at a TEA Party rally in a news story once. They pointed out to him that he had received a comparable amount of money in farm subsidies (I guess those records are public) and asked how he reconciled that with his TEA Party ideals. He said it was completely different. The money he received helps Americans and is a good use of taxpayer dollars.

And there we have the real problem. Virtually everyone (with a few exceptions, but not many) feels that the government money they are receiving is the good expenditure.

[mare]

I saw a ranting farmer at a TEA Party rally in a news story once. They pointed out to him that he had received a comparable amount of money in farm subsidies (I guess those records are public) and asked how he reconciled that with his TEA Party ideals. He said it was completely different. The money he received helps Americans and is a good use of taxpayer dollars.

And there we have the real problem. Virtually everyone (with a few exceptions, but not many) feels that the government money they are receiving is the good expenditure.

You're right, the information on what a private or corp farm receives is public record.

I agree on the second point, too, everyone (almost everyone) who's business, or project is subsidized thinks theirs is the one good use of taxpayer money.

[natisha]

How would anyone talking to a random person in a crowd know what that person received, public record or not? I don't doubt the story itself just the random nature of it.
Some people have a hard time believing that they are indeed 'other people'.

[JackieB]

How would anyone talking to a random person in a crowd know what that person received, public record or not? I don't doubt the story itself just the random nature of it.
Some people have a hard time believing that they are indeed 'other people'.


It wasn't random. The guy is active in his local TEA Party. The reporter knew who he was ahead of time, that he'd be at the rally, and that he'd received this money in farm subsidies. They wanted to ask him how he reconciled being so opposed to government spending while receiving this money from the government for his farm.

[natisha]

^ That makes more sense. I'll bet the farmer was surprised. I like it when people get outed.

[mare]

natisha - there is a USDA site that you can check exactly who received what if you know the person or corporation name.

[Tiz]

""Somehow we have to figure out how to boost the price of gasoline to the levels in Europe," Mr. Chu, who directs the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory in California, said in an interview with The Wall Street Journal in September." September 2008

In November of 2008, Steven Chu was named Obama's Energy Secretary.

Additionally, did you know that the EPA has hired more people to administer all the new regulations on oil producers? That's a bunch of regulations, don't you think?

Then there's the moratorium on offshore drilling that a judge has overturned twice, but is still in effect by the government manipulating the system, and essentially ignoring the ruling.

[natisha]

Didn't Obama (;)) just give Brazil $3.5B to increase their oil production & exploration?
Didn't he also say that he wants gas prices high so we will be forced to go green? What exactly are the green alternatives to oil anyway?

Why can't a windmill mounted on a car power the car?
Why is my mind wandering?

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Obama has aready said that he wants to see gasoline at about $6.50 a gallon. We deserve it, don'tcha know... The U.S. has been too successful for too long. He thinks we need to take a back seat in the world economy.

He is Wesley Mouch. No doubt about it.

[Tiz]

Obama has aready said that he wants to see gasoline at about $6.50 a gallon. We deserve it, don'tcha know... The U.S. has been too successful for too long. He thinks we need to take a back seat in the world economy.

He is Wesley Mouch. No doubt about it.

You mean he wants to "spread the wealth around."? No! That's your lying eyes and ears again.

[twofingers]

Didn't Obama (;)) just give Brazil $3.5B to increase their oil production & exploration?
----------------------------...
Why can't a windmill mounted on a car power the car?

Not exactly, George sisnaros (sp) is the major stock holder in Brazil oil- and the major contributor to obama's campaign.
---
Jacques Cousteau tried to mount a turbine on one of his ships to generate power at sea it didn't work.

[WashingtonBay]

Well, wind power works at sea... just not turbines, exactly. :)

[Tiz]

Energy in America: EPA Rules Force Shell to Abandon Oil Drilling Plans


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/25/energy-america-oil-drilling-denial/#ixzz1KYyB4yWW

Excerpt.

"Shell has spent five years and nearly $4 billion dollars on plans to explore for oil in the Beaufort and Chukchi Seas. The leases alone cost $2.2 billion. Shell Vice President Pete Slaiby says obtaining similar air permits for a drilling operation (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/25/energy-america-oil-drilling-denial/#) in the Gulf of Mexico would take about 45 days. He’s especially frustrated over the appeal board’s suggestion that the Arctic drill would somehow be hazardous for the people who live in the area. “We think the issues were really not major,” Slaiby said, “and clearly not impactful for the communities (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/25/energy-america-oil-drilling-denial/#) we work in.” The closest village to where Shell proposed to drill is Kaktovik, Alaska. It is one of the most remote places in the United States (http://www.foxnews.com/topics/u.s.htm#r_src=ramp). According to the latest census, the population is 245 and nearly all of the residents are Alaska natives. The village, which is 1 square mile, sits right along the shores of the Beaufort Sea, 70 miles away from the proposed off-shore drill site.
The EPA’s appeals board ruled that Shell had not taken into consideration emissions from an ice-breaking vessel when calculating overall greenhouse gas emissions from the project. Environmental groups were thrilled by the ruling.
“What the modeling showed was in communities like Kaktovik, Shell’s drilling would increase air pollution levels close to air quality standards,” said Eric Grafe, Earthjustice’s lead attorney on the case. Earthjustice was joined by Center for Biological Diversity and the Alaska Wilderness League in challenging the air permits."


Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/04/25/energy-america-oil-drilling-denial/#ixzz1KYyRfJHn

[natisha]

That was the plan all along. Turn the permit giving over to the EPA which doesn't have elected officials. That way someone else doesn't take the blame.
Icebreaker emissions? Who are they kidding? Ice breakers are used all the time in the fishing & crabbing industry along with a lot of other ships.
Obama (;)) said he wanted higher utility costs. It looks like he should be pretty happy.

All that talk about caring so much about the poor & middle class should be apparent to all now for the BS that it is. Who is actually the hardest hit when the costs of everything rises?
What's next, gas vouchers so we'll keep electing those who give them out?
In the next election I will vote for whoever vows to increase our own drilling. Not someone who hints he will look into it like this current guy did, just to fool those on the fence.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Gak. Air emissions from icebreakers? What do these people think the icebreakers will be doing when not breaking ice ~there~... just go home? No... they'll break ice somewhere else. The icebreakers will be working somewhere. So the effect of the drilling operation is zero.

Air emissions from drilling operations are going to affect air quality in a village 70 miles away? How? Drill rigs don't really "emit". Beyond some small number of vehicles... seems the air issues are exceptionally minor.

Reason number 57,258 to do away with the EPA.