Won't circle

[pandorasmom]

I just saw the backing thread and it made me think of Pandora. She has two bad habits and no matter how hard I make her work her feet for doing it, she does it again.
Her first one is, if she is wanting to go and I stop her, she'll start literally chomping at the bit, then she'll start just backing randomly, and sometimes will do half a rear. I can turn her to the side, flex her, etc. and she'll do it point blank again.
Her second one, is she used to turn in a circle, now she won't. She neck reins wonderfully so I can pull the rein to either side to get her turn, she'll do a half a turn then starts throwing her head, throws a huge hissy fit, then will rear. She doesn't do it all the time, but most all of the time. She will do this bareback or tacked up.
She gets set in her hardheaded mind she's not going to turn that way she'll do whatever it takes to not do that.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Everytime she goes to rear or gets foolish, I'll flex her neck or flex her neck(bending) and try to make her trot in a large circle, but the problem is she doesn't want to circle in the first place, so that's hard to do.

I'm open for any suggestions? I know she still needs alot of respect on her groundwork, and I groundwork her almost daily(Using CA's methods), but for some reason she just doesn't seem to click sometimes. She catches on really quick, but forgets her "manners" really quick. I'm going to see CA this weekend at a clinic, so I'm HOPING I can get some really good ideas to help. In the meantime I thought one of you may have dealt with this and could help me.

Thanks so much in advance!
Sharon

[cheval]

I just learned about the circle thing tonight - if she's got something going on with her shoulders/legs either stiffness or soreness they won't usually want to go in circles but they are fine on a straighaway. Our vet was up looking at one of the mares tonight and he told the owner no circles for three weeks. To just work her on a straightaway every couple of days walking and light jogging to see if that helped.

Does P show any signs of lameness going in a circle? Can you lunge her to check it out?

It could also be the saddle pinching her at the shoulder or the cinch. The saddle puts more pressure on the side when the are leaning into the circle especially with the weight of the rider, but not so much when the horse is going straight.

The other thing is it's flat out naughy horse 'tude. I'd check the other stuff out first though. Good luck!

[cloedoll]

Definitely check the saddle's fit. I know you mentioned that she does this bareback, but if the saddle is bugging her, whenever you are bareback she may be anticipating the pain or the ill fitted saddle (figuratively speaking) may have caused her to be stiff/sore/etc. I am not saying this is it, but definitely something to check. I wouldn't think this was a bit/teeth floating issues because you said she flexes nicely - I think it would bug her then.

[alittleoffkey]

I agree with Cheval and Caitlin. Sounds like something hurts.

[Gypsy Rose]

Actually, it wouldn't hurt to have the teeth checked along with the other things mentioned.

It sounds like she's not liking the bit pressure- otherwise, there should be some improvement bareback.

Shoulder, back or hock issues could also cause this behavior.

How old is your horse?

[pandorasmom]

Thanks for the responses!!

Regarding the saddle fit. So far this is same saddle I've used on her since I got her. To begin with after I got her she acted up, but she hadn't been worked with at all hardly the past 4 yrs (atleast), so that was to be expected. After doing some lunging and basic groundwork she stopped with any of her problems. It took her a while on her groundwork and awhile to flex, but she caught on eventually and did fine. She'd occasionally get in her head she'd do something to see if it'd work ( a buck here, a semi rear,etc.) but when she learnt I wasn't budging she pretty much quit that. I do make her wear 2 saddle pads. A 1 inch thick (I think it's that thickness if I'm not mistaken) and 3/4 inch one. She was underweight when I got her, so she wore it then. Since then I let her wear it on longer rides though (like 1 hr. plus rides). The longer rides seem to want to rub her top wither area.(maybe a saddle fit issue????). It's the top bone area there at the tip top of her hump on her back. If she wears the two pads there's not ever an issue, but if she wears only the one inch one it rubs her. If it was a saddle fit issue would this be something she's not been bothered by for months but comes about now? She had been doing fine from about March on, and then in September she started this and has continued. What I am asking her to do, is just turn completely around. It's not like a full circle I guess, hard to describe. She lunges fine, no problems. She does have the DDFT injury, but it's been there since I got her and she's turned circles like this for months now. Since I had the vet look at her leg, and I've got her on Gluco and Vit C. the swelling is never bad at all. It is noticable, but it looks awesome compared to what it was. I told her this evening she reminded me of a greenbroke filly the way she was acting. She really was misbehaving. I rode bareback this evening. I rotate riding bareback and riding tacked up, with the schedule around here(time for tacking or not,etc.). She doesn't get rode everyday. I can sometimes get in about 3-4 times a week, or less if it's a good week here on the farm (without doing other farm chores).
Here's a video of me trying to get her to turn the circle(if you call it that). If I want to go a different direction, she won't turn, she'll walks forward and then will turn. She has turned curves,circles,etc. since I got her. I've done pole bending with her, fake barrels (lol:P), and things of the sorts. No problems.
I want a honest answer to this question once you watch the video:
Is me asking her to turn this way to hard on her? Honestly??? I don't want to be provoking her or doing something to hurt her. She does neckrein so that is why I'm doing no direct reining. She also does flex her neck wonderfully. She had problems from the start, but worked out of them and is perfect now. I'm so pleased with her response to the flexing. I can lightly pick up the rein and she'll flex. She's great! I've been working with her constantly with this since I got her, so she's had time to learn it definately.
It just seems she tries to pick one problem out to cause, and then within a while of just working her with groundwork,riding her,etc. she comes out of it. I'm completely lost at what the issue is. I don't want to hurt her in anyway. I've never owned a horse before, and the horses I've been around most of my life weren't like this. So I'm clueless!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlImaGBflDY

[pandorasmom]

Actually, it wouldn't hurt to have the teeth checked along with the other things mentioned.

It sounds like she's not liking the bit pressure- otherwise, there should be some improvement bareback.

Shoulder, back or hock issues could also cause this behavior.

How old is your horse?

Hello!
Regarding the teeth check. My vet checked her teeth in August, and said they were fine. He said they were getting a little pointed, but should be fine to wait til the spring. He'll be out in February for shots, so I plan to have him do her teeth then as well. He said they aren't real bad.
She is in a training bit (I think that's what it's called, sorry not up on tech terms). The lady I bought her from had her in this bit, and she said she'd use it for her. It has the rollers on it, with copper rollers. Pandora loves to stand and just roll the rollers all around. I tried to let her wear just a plain ol' snaffle but it didn't work at all.

Pandora turned 15 yrs. in March. I got her January 06,2008. She's a Anglo-Arabian also, and was used for Endurance and as a broodmare. Not sure if that helps any, but thought I'd toss that out there. One of the ladies in her past said she got her from a sell where I guy was riding her hard. I don't know if this is true or not, but if it is, maybe something relates back to that. I don't really know.

She doesn't ever appear to have issues when lunging her, regularly riding her,etc. It's only when she turns.

[pandorasmom]

Anyone have any idea in response to what I said?

[alittleoffkey]

From the video:

When you're laying the left rein across her neck, you're keeping your reins really tight and when you lay your rein across her neck you're pulling the left side of her face pretty hard. She knows what you're asking of her and she's doing it - but she's trying to tell her it's uncomfortable because you're holding her head up and have your hands all up in her mouth. Ouch.

Loosen up your reins. Those bits are NOT made for direct contact, which if you can feel her face you ARE making. If that's how you always ask her to turn then, no offense, but I don't blame her for acting up.

[alittleoffkey]

Here's (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSEpVq2v-Rk)a good video on correct neck reining. :)

[pandorasmom]

Thanks for the video link! That was very informative. I'll definately remember it. The only reason I keep the reins so tight, is because if I don't she'll sometimes dart off like a bullet trying to run. Not always, but sometimes and I can't get her to not do that. You could groundwork her til she passed out, and I swaney she would still run while she was passing out. She is that kind of horse. You could run her to death and she'd run while she was killing over. That's her. I will definately try your suggestion of loosing the reins up. Not sure when I'll be able to ride again as we're getting rain right now and suppose to tomorrow, by the time it dries out (if we get more rain), it'll be Saturday and I'm going to see CA on Sat and Sun. I will give it a try though. I'm all for trying things.
What do I do if she goes to run? I know at some point she will. If she thinks she gets to run she'll jig constantly and chomp the bit til I let her go. Unless she's really tired, or having a calm day(not very often) I can't drop the reins real loose or she's off like a bullet.

[cheval]

Horses backs can change. With weight gain, loss, muscle development - a lot of different things. So I wouldn't rule it out entirely.

There is a definite reason why she's not willing to circle and I'm thinking at this point it's not just a 'tude. The trick is finding what it is.

If you can't ride on a loose rein, then it's a training issue. There's really no reason for her to bolt when she feels a release in the pressure you say you have. So, I'd go back to the very beginning. Work on your gaits. Work on walking on a looser rein. When she responds to that, work on the jog, then up the gaits.

This is exactly what I'm doing with Solon because he will nose right into the bit the second I loosen up. I'd give that a go for a couple of weeks. Might be boring, but a solid foundation is always worth a little bit of boring.

[alittleoffkey]

I'm really not trying to offend you, just help. Unfortunately I'm not terribly tactful and I realize that... so please don't take offense. :) You don't have to ride with loose reins - the guy in the video can easily pull back on those reins and have the bit in no time. Just make sure that you're not pulling her head towards the left when you're trying to get her to move right - because in the video you are.

Maybe she'd be better if you rode direct reining her with light contact with the bit all the time. Neck reining should only be done with horses who listen to their riders seat and only need slight, if any, direction from the reins.,If she's bolting and you have to yank on her face like that... then she's not trained well enough to neck rein.

This person (http://www.northshore.com/community/directory/sport/images/horse-riding.jpg)is riding with contact - see where her hands are? Her horse will know when she's asking him to move left or right because her hands are where they should be.

I used western and barrel racing pictures for the rest. :)
This girl (http://www.poconovacations.com/Recreation/HorsebackRiding/images/poconos-Horseback-Riding-01.jpg)(in the lead) also has plenty of contact with the bit. Note where their hands are.
This rider (http://www.chardonnaypark.com/Spider%20Doing%20Barrel%20Racing.jpg)has contact with the bit (light contact) but this is how contact with the outside bit should look when asking your horse to neck rein.
This (http://www.ridethewilderness.com/Ontario%20Barrel%20Racing.jpg)is closer to where your hands are. When you pull upwards that harshly at the bit it's moving in her mouth in a rather uncomfortable way, pushing down in a V motion on her tongue and pushing back. It's not meant to be pulled in that direction - it's meant to be pulled straight back, not up... which would make her more aggravated than simply telling her to go in two directions at once. ;) Those bits cause pressure on the tongue and her gums... pulling up like that is also pinching her gums pretty fiercely. When you pull back the V moves up and goes forward which isn't comfortable, but isn't painful (probably anyway) either. :) I think that's right... I don't have one to play with (I won't own one) so I could be wrong.

I know! Go put the headstall around your neck and hold the reins in one hand and put the bit in the other (close your fist around it) and pull on the reins like you do when you ride her - you'll realize how harsh a training bit really is when there's a lot of pressure applied, particularly in the wrong direction. ;)

[pandorasmom]

I asked my sister last night while we were studing the video if I was doing something wrong. I wasn't 100% sure.

She has gained weight, and muscle since I got her. She still looks kinda ribby, but her weight hangs real low from having all the foals she had. I also don't want her being to fat because of her DDFT injury. She gets a little over 6lbs of feed a day, and has time for grazing thoroughout the day but not at night.
After I first got her she didn't have problems when I would let her reins be loose. Because I never ran with her. I got her January 06,2008 and the first time I trotted her alone was March 06. The week after I brougt her home she threw me off once, and bucked the entire distance of the corral. So I was afraid to let her run because she had bucked me while running. The first time I cantered her was on April 23. I had seen my sister Canter her and she bucked with her some, and with me. So I was terrified to canter her. Then I found the key to cantering her. DON'T touch her sides. All you do is BARELY make a click sound with your tongue lay your leg against her side and she's gone. There's no encouragaing whatsoever. Once I did that she was fine. Never bucked me again,except one day it was cooler and she was feeling her oats. That's it. I found out after I cantered her, if you apply any hard leg pressure she pins her ears and gets ticked off, so I just barely lay my leg against her side or click my tongue and she's fine. We've taken major baby steps. I did all of her riding work,groundwork,etc. in the corral up until June 1st. Didn't get to ride the 2nd or 3rd. Our first time in the pasture was June 4th. Since then we've been over there, and we ride in one of our large fields (unfenced) sometimes. Since she's had the freedom of running she will typically get real jiggy and won't slow up unless I tighten the reins. We can go at it for 30 minutes and sometimes she'll eventually get tired of fighting and will just walk on a loose rein. I have her bridle set on what I( and my mom) feels is comfortable for her. The bit isn't to tight, nor to loose and it all fits fine. My mom owned horses for years and has been around them most of her life.
I'm willing to work on her training again, Even if it's boring I'm willing to give it a shot. I want to be able to run her and have fun, but not worry about her darting off If I give her the rein. It's no fun riding a horse when your hanging on for dear life because you don't know what she's gonna do next if you loosen the reins up. If you see what I'm saying?

I can walk her on a loose rein fine, but if I dare let her run any at all, I can't get her to walk for the next while on a loose rein. She gets soooo hyped up from running she want settle back down. If she's trotting she'll speed up and take off, unless I keep a medium-tight rein. If she goes to dart off at a walk, trot,canter,etc. what do I do?

I hope I'm making sense with this. I'm willing to explain it further if I can.
Thanks so much for trying to help me out here! :)

[cheval]

You sit heavy (to give her a cue to slow down), turn her in a circle of you need to and go back to the place where she darted off and continue on. That's how my trainer described it too me. It's entirely possible to have a horse canter on a loose rein. I'm a long way from there myself. But we are doing pretty good at the walk.

If you find your body tensing up when you get to the faster gaits, she will sense that and think she's supposed to go faster. Make sure you are relaxed. Don't EXPECT her to bolt when you ask for a trot canter.

Here's a kinda maybe silly thing I did the other night. Solon wanted to bolt into a fast trot and I was getting flustered and so was he. So when he'd start trotting and I'd start getting upset I starte taking really deep breaths out loud. I calmed down, he IMMEDIATELY did the same. It was pretty cool. Like I said, I know it sounds silly but doesn't hurt to try.

Sit with a relaxed lower back. Ease her into a jog. If she wants to go faster, sit deep give a pull back on the reins, if she still wants to go, circle her go back to where you started and repeat. Just to walk to trot transistions. It's repetitive, but it's sure worked for me.

[pandorasmom]

I'm really not trying to offend you, just help. Unfortunately I'm not terribly tactful and I realize that... so please don't take offense. :) You don't have to ride with loose reins - the guy in the video can easily pull back on those reins and have the bit in no time. Just make sure that you're not pulling her head towards the left when you're trying to get her to move right - because in the video you are.

Maybe she'd be better if you rode direct reining her with light contact with the bit all the time. Neck reining should only be done with horses who listen to their riders seat and only need slight, if any, direction from the reins.,If she's bolting and you have to yank on her face like that... then she's not trained well enough to neck rein.




I think we were posting at the same time. I'm not taking an offense to what your saying. I'm trying to learn the best I can with this, as I don't want to make it confusing for her in anyway.
She is trained to direct rein or neck rein and she will neck rein wonderfully if your not turning with her.
The only things I have to tell her when riding is when to stop and if she needs to turn. She's great otherwise.

Here's a video of her flat out running. I wasn't letting her run fully here because there's one low spot I have to be careful of. But if I let her run like this, Just once, the endurance in her(I'm figuring) says okay let's run. And then she's jiggy for I don't know how long.
http://video.xanga.com/fromthestallofpandora/28236828154/video.html

Here's another one with pictures and video. Some of the video shows you our riding. The video after the "finally freedom" I was keeping a tighter rein on her there because this was the first time I EVER let her run in an open area and I wasn't sure how she'd respond.
http://video.xanga.com/fromthestallofpandora/ae03d781088/video.html

I have many more videos of various things if something else would help.

Thanks for trying to help out here!

[cheval]

Neck reining isn't neck reining if you can't turn her! So I would say that she probably direct reins, but not neck reins.

[cheval]

Why do you use a tie down?

[pandorasmom]

She will turn with neck reining, but not in a turn like I orginally showed y'all about her problem. She'll do neck reining in most turns, just not tight turns. Letme see if I can find a video of it, I'm not sure If I have one but will check.

The tie down....It was on her when I got her. The lady said she used one on her. I talked to a friend who is great with training horses and she said to take the tie down off. Which I did. I used it the first several months whenever I rode(up until June I think, but can't promise it), now I only use it if it's a day she's being a royal pain(very head slingly or something). I don't ever use it, unless she's being really head tossy and I put it on then so I don't get busted in the head by her. Otherwise she doesn't ride in the tie down.

[cheval]

Ah, that's good. It doesn't look like she really needs it in the bareback videos.

Tight turns, like barrel racing and pole bending, can take a lot of work if it's not a natural thing for the horse. I had one, that was great and another one that couldn't ever seem to get the idea of it. How long have you been working with her on them.

[pandorasmom]

The poles we've not worked on since July I think...I did it as a game for her in the corral, but only on rare occasion now. I only do them to give her something to do. When we worked in the corral, I did it to change things up because she's a horse of hating routine. She likes changes. Now, since we're in the pasture I only do it sometimes to change things up. Man it's probably been since July atleast since I've worked her on poles. Probably since my last poles video was taken. I'm not going into using her for any type of sporting events, just do the poles for fun. Our "fake barrels" are just using the poles in a barrel pattern and we've not done that since July probably either.

When riding bareback she's alot calmer then when she's tacked up. She doesn't spook as easily riding bareback. Stupid as it sounds I'd rather ride her bareback then tacked up. My sister thinks it's stupid, but I just feel like she and I are more comfortable riding bareback. She doesn't get so tensed up. I think to her after riding in endurance for years, her job is when she's tacked up. Though she enjoys that to no end, she seems to rather ride bareback. Atleast to me that's how it seems.

[pandorasmom]

Oh and the bareback videos of me without bridle or anything was in a 1/4 of the corral. LOL She's no wheres NEAR being able to do that anywheres but a small area, but It was getting to late to do anything else, so we changed things up and did that after we fenced off the rest of the corral. She did fine.

[cheval]

So, do you really need/want to do small circles? If not, I wouldn't even worry about it. I'd work on other stuff instead.

I think she looked really nice bareback and bitless!! Small is the first step then give her more room. Eventually you'll be using the whole arena. She actually looks more comfortable bitless than she does in your bit. Have you thought of trying that?

[pandorasmom]

The only reason I was doing the circles was to try and slow her up from her jiggyness. I thought it would get her to use her feet and make her not be so forward about trying to run straight ahead when I loosen up the rein. If there's a better way, please please tell me! I'm open for it.

How would I go about riding her bitless with her tack? Using her halter? The biggest problem would be slowing her up.

Letme show you a video me riding her bareback up a hill and trying to stop her... I'll go get it.

[pandorasmom]

Here's the video of her March 11th when she turned fine, I'm uploading the other one me bareback with her:

http://video.xanga.com/fromthestallofpandora/e0d4b892590/video.html

[pandorasmom]

Here's the link to the video of me riding Bareback just the other day with her. It's been about a week and half or so I'd say.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JY6FpSt80eA

It's still processing so might be a few more minutes, but that's the link for it.

[cheval]

Well, to slow her down you don't need a tight circle. Do you mean a half halt stop? I wouldn't ride her in her halter if she's got no slow down. You need either a hackamore or a bitless. It just seems like she is a lot more relaxed through her poll and neck when you were riding her without the bit.

So that makes me wonder 1) would she be better bitless or 2) does she actually need a better bit?

Also like I mentioned before your body language when you ride her can make her speed up. When you ride again, focus only on relaxing on your lower back and being one with her. See if that makes a difference. I bet it does.

[pandorasmom]

Okay, the video is working now.

I didn't think you meant in a halter, but wasn't sure. I could use a hackamore but I've never used one before and am uncertain how it would work. Wouldn't want to mess her up.
I tried a snaffle but it didn't work. It was to big and she ignored it to much. She is alot more relaxed when I ride without anything, then is a little tenser when I ride bareback with bridle, and then finally is most tense when tacked up. Or to me it appears that way.

Soo...what do you think would be best to do from here?

Oh, and I will try the body language. It's so hard to remember that though. I've always had problems remembering it.

[JackieB]

Thanks for sharing with us, Pandorasmom. I think you have a number of things going with Pandora. She reminds me a lot of Buster when I started riding him. He has super-successful racing genes in his pedigree and inherited every one of them. Loosen up on the reins and you are outta here! Every time! :)

Now ultimately, you don't want to ride that way. You want a calm, respectful horse that will control its speed. You don't want to have to worry about holding tight on the reins when you circle Pandora because you know she'll take off like she was shot out of a cannon if you let off the pressure.

One thing I can tell you for sure is that when you posted the first video of the two of you circling, she was screaming her head off for you to let off on her mouth. The head-tossing was her saying "LET OFF!!!" But, I also completely, totally, understand that you were thinking "But if I do, Miss Pandora, you're going to take off like this is the Kentucky Derby!" So what to do?

Clinton Anderson is going to point to some problems that you will recognize with Pandora this weekend. And he's going to say that the horse is simply saying "Clinton, I need you to back up a bit with me, please. I'm not quite ready for this task. My foundation is weak in some areas."


Are you a decent student? Willing to study fairly hard and follow a lesson plan for a long time without getting too impatient or taking shortcuts? If you are, here's what I strongly recommend. This weekend, buy

Gaining Respect and Control on the Ground, Series 1
Riding With Confidence, Series 1
These two sets of DVDs are going to cost you about $250 all together (maybe they'll have them on sale for the show). They aren't cheap!

Bring them home and start through every single exercise of both sets of those DVDs. No rush, take a year or more, but work on it steadily. If you do it, you'll be utterly amazed at the results. You'll be able to ride Pandora on loose reins, almost all of the time, she will maintain her speed in all gaits, she will be soft, flexible, responsive, and respectful in a simple snaffle bit, and so on.

I say this with a high degree of confidence because Pandora is so much like Buster. You're never going to have the horse you really want if you are in his/her mouth so hard on the bit. Or if you have to haul back on the bit to get the horse to stop, and then hope it will. But you have a horse that is very difficult to ride that way right now (if I understand correctly). She's all - Go! Go! Go! So, you don't presently have much alternative but to use more pressure than you want if you are to keep her under some semblance of control.

The solution is to go way back in the training to the beginning and build a foundation. Once that foundation of respect and control is started, you can incrementally go forward with more complex tasks, but with soft, loose reins. But you can't work backwards with a horse that is chargey and excited to run all the time.

That's my recommendation. Thanks for your consideration. :)

P.S. Your saddle should never rub. If it takes two pads to keep the saddle from rubbing, then the saddle doesn't fit. I wouldn't put a saddle that didn't fit Buster on him under any circumstances. I'd sell it and get one that does fit.

[pandorasmom]

I'll try and post back to this tomorrow, if all goes well.