Do You Think This Is Right?

[MyHorseBiggs]

Well yesterday at my riding lesson, which was totally AWSOME! I was told by my instructor while we were waiting for my horse to get a tack change, said that almost all the school horses are on a ton of bute (horse asprin) to keep from showing that they're hurt. And I'd say there's about 30 horses and there's 3 horses that are being riden all the time and are riden every day sometimes more than 3 times per day and are being used for lessons until they're too lame and can't be riden anymore and then they get put in the back pasture where nobody even grooms them or touches them until they die! Which is also why they're put in the back pasture so if a few die in a day that people won't complane or complane that they look really bad. And she also said that a lot of the school horses aren't riden for a week or more cause there's the 3 main horses that are working their butts off which is just sad! So I don't know. I'm thinking of at my next lesson I'm going to ask the barn owner if I can come once or twice a week and give all the horses a through grooming. Because I feel bad for some horses they look just horrible and never get any love. :(

So what do you think about the ^above^??? To me it kinda just seems like abuse but this could be normal. :/

[WashingtonBay]

Well, neglecting horses out back till they die is certainly not right. Keeping their retired horses for life, even if they are at pasture and not as primped as some, is very right. It all depends on how you look at it and how they're treated.

As for the school horses, it depends on why they hurt and whether their health is being managed, which it doesn't sound like, or just masked.

For horses with arthritis, bute can be a wonderful drug that can keep them moving and working much longer than those without it. If that is the reason, I don't really have a problem with it, as long as it's being given in appropriate amounts and with the consult of a vet, and the horse's work is reasonable and within his abilities. But it shouldn't be given 'by the ton' for a variety of undiagnosed lamenesses that might be better treated another way or with rest. So it depends.

Let me ask this.... Your instructor, I'd imagine, works there and is part of the decisions there. Why did she tell you all this, that way? What's her motive?

[alittleoffkey]

That's distressing, but unfortunately it's a world way too many lesson horses know. Getting your local animal control involved might make them wake up and take care of their horses... but I don't think they could actually do anything.

[Suzi]

I agree with most of Wb comments, but your instructor said if a few day in a day no one will notice? That seems unlikely if a stable lost a couple of horses in a day no one would notice. But I did see you wrote you were wating for your horse to get a tack change. Was someone else changing the tack and why? Is it common for the students there to kept from the horses? And I would question why an instructor would bad mouth the place they work to a student. Perhaps I don't see the whole picture?

[MyHorseBiggs]

Well the horse I normally ride became lame. So I was ridding another horse and a lady had a western lesson before me and there are people who work and tack up horses and take them to the students which I'd rather do it myself but I've asked and appearently I'm not allowed but I can untack them. :/ Well had to change to a english saddle so while she was being tacked up.

So we were just talking about how the other school horse got lame and she just rambled on about what's going on with the horses. And she said she has tried to stop it but there wasn't anything she could do about it.

[WashingtonBay]

I dunno... all this is a little too vague to really say if it's not right, or is just the reality of managing a bunch of school horses.

[MyHorseBiggs]

True...

[FoxFireEMT]

hmmmm I kinda had the same questions as Suzi. Everytime I recieved a lesson it was start to finish. (From catching the horse to letting the horse back out when done) Then again, I never went to a "high" class stable for lesson either. That might be a common thing to have other people "tack" up your horses.

As far as letting others rest, I can understand that. And like WB said, bute can def. help a horse in pain, but I'm not sure I agree with just "buting" them up to be ridden & keep money flowing in? I don't know. I don't know enough to make an accurate accusion.

[Flair]

For horses with arthritis, bute can be a wonderful drug that can keep them moving and working much longer than those without it.

Bute really isn't effective as long-term pain management medication though. Long term use of Bute can seriously damage a horse's kidneys. There was an older mare at our barn who was kept on Bute as arthritis management for years, when lo and behold, she started majorly losing weight, the vet did blood tests and she had pretty bad kidney failure. Bute can also lead to ulcers and stomach bleeding (as can aspirin in humans) and it was a major reason why she lost weight so badly this last year because kidney damage does affect appetite and weight gain (or lack thereof)

I've got nothing against Bute as a short term pain reliever. When Flair had to get a couple of teeth pulled, the vet proscribed Bute for a few days. As short term, it works well (nothing like an aspirin to drive that headache away, right) but long-term I think there are better solutions like MSM or glucosamine and chondroitin. Flair had a supplement that had all three in it. I've also heard that Devil's Claw works really really well. And with all four of the above, the side effects are not as damaging (if there are any major side effects at all)

Of course, Bute is cheap, and that's why people tend to give it more often.

[WashingtonBay]

I tend to think bute is used because it's proven. Devil's Claw, and even Chondroitin and Glucosamine are not proven when given orally. Who knows what the effects of Devils Claw are or aren't. As an herbal nutricuetical, it's largely unstudied and unregulated.

Given with some precautions the risks with bute are very low, even for long term arthritis inflammation management and relief.

Old horse may have had kidney failure for a lot of reasons. Maybe she was chronically not drinking enough. Maybe she just had to fail somewhere. But maybe she had years of comfort she wouldn't have had without the bute. I know lots of horses whose working lives, and quality of remaining years, were greatly improved by it and it gets a bad rap. It's one of the most tried and true drugs out there.

[cloedoll]

I agree with WBay for the most part. However (not saying you said this WBay) I can't imagine ALL of the horses having a lameness issue that is managed with bute, maybe one or two have arthritis like WBay mentioned, but ALL of them? No way. I don't think we have enough information, know enough about your trainer, etc. to really judge this one...by the way you described everything, though, no, it doesn't sound right.

[MyHorseBiggs]

Not all of em have a lameness issue, but there's about 10 to 20 out of 30 who do. The BO is in need of money all the time. So that might be a reason. Idk.. it just worries me that the horses aren't getting propper care ya know? I'm just asking what you think ask me questions and I'll answer them.

[zoel_222]

I think this whole situation sounds a little too unbelievable to me. If your trainer has such a problem with the way the barn takes care of its horses, and is talking bad about it to her students, why does she train out of it? And if YOU have such a problem with it, why are you taking lessons there?

[cloedoll]

Not all of em have a lameness issue, but there's about 10 to 20 out of 30 who do. The BO is in need of money all the time. So that might be a reason. Idk.. it just worries me that the horses aren't getting propper care ya know? I'm just asking what you think ask me questions and I'll answer them.Ten to twenty horses that are lame on and off is a lot, to me at least. The BO being in need of money all the time - ok, understandable, but she has a barn to run and horses need proper care, you should have the money and be able to take care of the horses properly, if not, time to downsize or something. It's hard to say since I don't know her, your barn, or anything, just by what you're saying, it sounds like the horses are not receiving proper care. It's fine if they aren't groomed, but when THAT many have a lameness issue and they're all on bute, there's just no way that they all have a lameness issue that doesn't have a reason behind it, covering it up with bute isn't solving any issues or the right thing to do, IMO.

I don't really want to continue chatting because I don't want to sound like I'm bashing anybody. To answer your original question, no, it doesn't sound right, but that's just how it sounds, not what actually is.

[Annasmom]

hmm idk. I agree with WB it could be justified but.. idk I feel bad for those overused horses. it must not be a great life

[WashingtonBay]

Not all of em have a lameness issue, but there's about 10 to 20 out of 30 who do. The BO is in need of money all the time. So that might be a reason. Idk.. it just worries me that the horses aren't getting propper care ya know? I'm just asking what you think ask me questions and I'll answer them.

Depends. If it is a string of young horses, maybe it's a problem. If it's a string of retired show horses and jumpers in their teens, then there's a good chance she's managing a few aches and pains and bless her for it, for what is their alternative?

Look at the big picture, look at the appearance of the horses, the place, the treatment you see them receive and decide on what you see.

[Remali]

I would say something is very seriously wrong, that is not normal at all. Do the horses have the same farrier (reason I ask, we had trouble with a farrier trimming too short and the horses all got lame). And if the BO continues to use them then the BO is either an idiot, or maybe needs to be investigated by the local humane association. And if the horses look horrible, all the more reason to involve the humane association. We had something similar to that around here a few years ago, a lesson/training barn, the humane association was out there a couple times.

Anyway, that is what I'd do.....I'd report them.

[WashingtonBay]

And if the horses look horrible, all the more reason to involve the humane association. We had something similar to that around here a few years ago, a lesson/training barn, the humane association was out there a couple times.

Anyway, that is what I'd do.....I'd report them.

Remali - we don't know that any of them look horrible, nor that any are being mistreated. Much of what has been reported here is very vague and easily misinterpreted.

I think we'd better have very good cause before we suggest reporting people to the authorities. Not only do humane societies not generally have a lot of free time for handling baseless reports, an overzealous or misguided 'authority' can really make life miserable for good people who are doing their best to keep a large herd of aging horses healthy and happy.

Look at the facts we've been given, and just imagine that perhaps this is a stable with a lot of aging old schoolmasters who, rather than being shipped off to slaughter when they get old, are actually kept in work as long as they can and then retired to pasture for their remaining years until they die.

My Bay too, is here till he dies. And when he needs Bute, he gets it. But I suppose taken out of context, I'm keeping him jacked up on drugs and neglecting him to pasture till he dies.

In my mind, that is what we are SUPPOSED to do.

We just don't know ~anything~ about this situation.

If Biggs wants to come back and say they aren't being fed and all seem poorly and sick, fine. But if she's got some aging school horses she's keeping as sound as possible and a few old retired horses out back, I'd be more tempted to give her praise than a citation, and I question the motives of this instructor.

Main point, as horse owners, we should be very sure there is good cause to report someone for abuse or neglect before we throw it out there as a good idea. It can really make people miserable to be investigated and those investigating are not always the most knowledgeable on horse health in the first place.

[MyHorseBiggs]

Ok well looks like you guys have a point. Most of em are older, but as I said cloedoll, not all of em have a lameness issue just a large portion of em from what I'm told. I don't know too much about this situation eaither, I'm just saying what I heard and wondering if you guys thought different.

[WashingtonBay]

How do the horses look? Feed - condition - feet. Their basic health and the upkeep of the place would say a lot.

[cloedoll]

Ok well looks like you guys have a point. Most of em are older, but as I said cloedoll, not all of em have a lameness issue just a large portion of em from what I'm told. I don't know too much about this situation eaither, I'm just saying what I heard and wondering if you guys thought different.

As I stated in an earlier post, I know and understand that. When I say "all of the horses, all of them" I mean all of the lame ones.

[Remali]

Oh well.....WB, when someone tells me that the horses look horrible, I guess I interpret that to mean just that.
Nevermind, I am not getting into a debate as to what the definition of "horrible" is.