Can we talk health care?

[lovesfortune]

This morning I was watching the news and the recap of the debate (I couldn't make it through last night :sleep:). I know that one of the big differences between Obama and McCain is their plans for health care and insurance.

McCain wants the $2500 credit per individual $5000/family

Obama wants healthcare for everyone that is government run

I was watching ABC this morning and they had an "analyst" on that said that McCain's plan was bad because it would allow people to cross state lines for insurance and have to do the research on our own about what is allowed in each state, etc. and that it was too confusing for the average person to try to deal with

I know McCain's argument about Obama's plan is that why would you want the government to run healthcare when they are horrible at running everything else.

Thoughts? Can anyone (WB & JackieB???? or anyone else) break it down for me?

Thanks

[HoustonFarrier]

Obama wants healthcare for everyone that is government run
It's all very simple.....name ONE government run program that is run well and at a positive financial status(pays for itself).......

NONE!

Don't let the government run your life. Take the time to make your own decisions. so many people these days don't want to do the "work" to figure things out for themselves. Any government run entitlement = TAXES to your income .... GUARANTEED!

Steve

[lovesfortune]

IAny government run entitlement = TAXES to your income .... GUARANTEED!

Steve

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, because I am trying to learn more.. but isn't McCain's "credit" coming out of our taxes anyways? He's taxing our income and then giving us the credit from the tax?

So with either plan our income will be taxed... it's just a difference of how much?

[HoustonFarrier]

Okay, correct me if I'm wrong, because I am trying to learn more.. but isn't McCain's "credit" coming out of our taxes anyways?

No, it's not. A tax credit is like an exemption you get when you have a kid.....you get to LOWER your taxable income by xxx.xx dollars. So, you give the govt less of your INCOME. Now, the Dems will say that's less revenue for the govt...but.....what happens with that extra money...you spend it on something.....which is taxed...which actually INCREASES revenue to the govt.

See...everyone is being suckered by Obama and his..."Im going to tax only the rich"......but...he is going to let the Bush tax cuts EXPIRE...which is going to INCREASE EVERYONES TAXES. Plus, he is going to raise the capital gains taxes....which means ANYONE making a profit in a small business, ANYONE making a profit from stock dividends.. is going to see an increase in taxes.

Do some research......the LAST Democrat president who EVER lowered taxes was JFK. EVERY SINGLE Democrat since has RASIED taxes.

My daughter is 19 and buys her own insurance. She's not broke...she's not starving. She has done research(with my help) and is doing fine.

Steve

[WashingtonBay]

Well, I've been self-buying my own insurance for years now, so I'd much rather have the tax credit and the ability to choose what I want to pay for. A government plan would have a lot more in it than I would have bought and will cost me more, and I don't have any choice. It's just another tax.

Health care is one of those things I would do COMPLETELY different than any politician will ever propose. I'd have to be king in order to pull it off, a president doesn't have the power I'd want.

I'd ban employer-paid insurance, and I'd strictly limit medical liability damage awards (my revision of civil suit law would solve a lot of other problems too, but that's another thread for another day).

I think those two things right there would go a long way toward controlling costs and making health care something we can actually afford. Right now, for many, the cost of both insurance and medical procedures is invisible and we don't even consider it. For others, who don't have insurance, any medical problem of any significance is practically unaffordable.

And yet, both groups can and do afford good medical treatment for their animals. What's the difference? Not the skill and training of the practitioners, usually. Not the complexity of the work. I think the main difference is the natural market forces of competition and supply and demand that must keep the prices for veterinary work within the reach of ordinary people.

I think the problem is that medicine for people is viewed as something we shouldn't have to shop around for or even pay for. Someone else pays it so why should we care how much it is?

My husband and I have always shopped for insurance based on what we can afford to pay, both monthly for the premiums, and what we could afford to pay on our own for basic care, and we've tried to choose plans that would cover catastrophic care or serious injuries, but not necessarily the little things. I think as people we can and should be able to afford a doctor visit for a strain or an earache or an infection or even a basic checkup without using insurance for that. Insurance should only kick in for big things, not daily things. It would make the whole cost of insurance a lot less.

The analogy I'd use is that of car insurance. We don't use our auto insurance to pay for gas, or changing our oil, or even making mechanical repairs. We pay for those things ourselves. We use it, usually, to help us in the event we would suffer a big repair or the loss of the whole car from an accident. I'd like our medical insurance to be viewed the same way. Basic things, we pay for ourselves, and in the process, we lower those costs, because the cost to provide them is much less. Insurance should be to protect us from the unforeseeable, not to manage the routine.

My two cents. If I were king.

[vicklynn]

See...everyone is being suckered by Obama and his..."Im going to tax only the rich"......but...he is going to let the Bush tax cuts EXPIRE...which is going to INCREASE EVERYONES TAXES. Plus, he is going to raise the capital gains taxes....which means ANYONE making a profit in a small business, ANYONE making a profit from stock dividends.. is going to see an increase in taxes.

Do some research......the LAST Democrat president who EVER lowered taxes was JFK. EVERY SINGLE Democrat since has RASIED taxes.

Your right on that Steve.
People are hearing what they want, and not seeing what is going to happen.
While McCain isnt a good speaker, heck, neither am I, he has it in his mind what he wants to do. I know its not all the best, but its a WHOLE lot better than Obama and his lieing to the public. Obama is using charisma and speech to get to people. To bad they dont see it.

[lovesfortune]

Thanks for the info guys. Definitely gives things a different way to look at it, WB.. made my head hurt with all this thinking. :P

I think insurance in general is very confusing (for me). I don't have someone like you HF to help me figure it out. My hubby gets insurance through his work and it sucks. He talks about buying our own, but I have no way to go about it or even start. We have 2 young kids and they have "well child" visits ALOT.

[WashingtonBay]

Houston:
Plus, he is going to raise the capital gains taxes....which means ANYONE making a profit in a small business, ANYONE making a profit from stock dividends.. is going to see an increase in taxes.

And capital gains from the sale of a home that has appreciated in value over the years.

[HoustonFarrier]

And capital gains from the sale of a home that has appreciated in value over the years.

Wall Street already got that :) Interestingly enough....we WILL NOT get a tax break because our homes (real estate) has DEPRECIATED........

Steve

[lovesfortune]

So staying somewhat on topic:
Do you agree with McCain or Obama in last night's debate:
Is heathcare a right, a priveledge, or a responsibility?

[HoustonFarrier]

My hubby gets insurance through his work and it sucks. .

I understand completely....however....you're STILL better off with crappy work insurance rather than govt provided (welfare) insurance. You WON'T get the insurance plans that the lawmakers get....no way ! You'll get what THEY THINK you need.

There are supplemental insurance policies out there. I used Aflack when I got laid off several years ago, and was working farrier full time.

Steve

[JackieB]

I do believe that I can provide some information on this one and I will gladly continue to do research on this issue and answer questions to the best of my ability for anyone between now and the election. Healthcare is an hugely important issue to me and I'd like to see all voters understand the facts.

There are significant and fundamental differences between the healthcare plans of McCain and Obama. I think Obama's plan is superior to McCain's and I'll explain why. If you disagree with me and wish to comment, I'd appreciate if you could do so in a civil manner, sticking to facts, and without flaming me or Obama.

OK, here goes.

It's not true that Barack Obama wants government to run healthcare. He said twice last night, and has to repeat often, that if someone has healthcare right now and likes it, there is no reason to switch. If an employer offers healthcare and likes its program, there is no reason why they need to change anything, either.

Uninsured Americans (some 50 million), would be able to buy into a group plan that is similar to what elected representatives such as McCain and Obama currently receive. The premium rates would be moderate because the group would be so big (millions of subscribers) and there would be no exclusion for pre-existing conditions. This is huge. Please don't discount how important it is to be able to sign up for a plan that allows members to join without exclusion for pre-existing conditions.

My guess is that this new group plan would be something like Medicare. But please remember that anyone who presently has insurance and is happy with it does not need to join. I know that Medicare isn't perfect, but it's not fair to say that it's an utter failure as a government program either. I know plenty of seniors who think that Medicare isn't bad, and it's a lot better than going without health insurance.


John McCain's plan offers a $2,500 personal or $5,000 family tax credit to go toward insurance. One of the first things to note about this is that an individual must have a tax liability of at least $2,500 to even receive the credit. A person who is working part-time while going to school or whatever, but is an adult and not on a parent's policy, may not earn enough to even receive the full credit to use toward insurance.

John McCain's approach favors offering assistance through these tax credits to people to buy their own insurance. Well, if you live in a state that doesn't have legislation to guarantee that you can get insurance without being excluded for pre-existing conditions, you might have a very hard time. Any comprehensive policy on health insurance must address the issue of pre-existing conditions, and McCain's does not.

The fact is that insurance companies only really want to insure people who are healthy. They aren't in the business of providing everyone insurance, their job is to maximize shareholder value by selling profitable insurance policies. If someone has a condition that is known to potentially be expensive such as diabetes or the possibility of a recurrence of cancer (cancer survivor), an insurer would much rather turn that person down.

John McCain makes a big point of saying that he wants to remove the state "boundaries" for selling insurance so that someone in Michigan could buy a policy in Arizona (for example) to increase competition. Does anyone really think that this would make that much difference? Basic health insurance is something of a commodity, and insurers aren't going to lower their prices significantly just because they can sell policies in other states. They can already become established to sell insurance in other states if they wish.

And like Obama said last night, insurers would set themselves up in the state that had the most favorable regulations for them, anyway. That's why so many companies are incorporated in Delaware.

Summary. Thanks so much for reading all the way to this point. :)

Obama and McCain hit the differences between their plans when asked is healthcare was a right, privilege, or responsibilty for U.S. citizen. McCain said "responsibilty", Obama said "right". He continued on to say that citizens living in a country as great at the U.S. have a right to affordable healthcare. His plan guarantees that citizens will have affordable access, McCain's offers them some assistance in finding it on their own.

We've seen right on this forum what can happen in the blink of an eye when someone doesn't have health insurance. It can devastate a person's life instantly because the bills can run into the tens of thousands of dollars overnight. And sure there are ways to help negotiate that down and stuff, but wouldn't it be better if we just had a program to help them, and those who have medical conditions obtain healthcare.

WB, who I respect and admire greatly said on the other forum that anyone can get healthcare coverage by filing bankruptcy if he/she can't afford it. I said then and I'll say now that I understand this, but that's a heck of a price to have to pay. I think there will be a better alternative available to us if we elect Obama.

[HoustonFarrier]

So staying somewhat on topic:
Do you agree with McCain or Obama in last night's debate:
Is heathcare a right, a priveledge, or a responsibility?

None of the above. It is a personal decision that we EACH must make. There are people out in the world who are JUST FINE without any health insurance. Why should I be FORCED to have (and pay for) insurance that I don't want? Should a person HAVE to have car insurance if they don't have a car??? There were times where I was doing contract software engneering, and I opted OUT of the company health insurance plan, so I would not have that $$$ deducted from my pay.

Steve

[vicklynn]

I have on question.
I search and search and search now for health care, so whats the diff if McCain has you doing the same search Im doing now????? Im getting scre....ed now if I get it, wont be any different next yr.
For those of you that get insurance through your company, great, but for those of us who dont, who have to search out, sit in front of some guy for hours, MULTIPLE times, and then find out the plan aint all its cracked up to be, it'll still be the same way next yr. Whats the diff? Its happening now and has been.

[WashingtonBay]

WB, who I respect and admire greatly said on the other forum that anyone can get healthcare coverage by filing bankruptcy if he/she can't afford it. I said then and I'll say now that I understand this, but that's a heck of a price to have to pay. I think there will be a better alternative available to us if we elect Obama.That isn't exactly what I said. I said everyone can get health CARE when they need it, whether they can afford it or not. It was in a conversation about whether people had access to universal health care in this country, not universal health coverage. We don't turn people away from emergency rooms for inability to pay. They may face bankruptcy, but not lack of emergency care.

[HoustonFarrier]

But please remember that anyone who presently has insurance and is happy with it does not need to join.

Right jackie...I may not have to join...but I'll bet I'll STILL have to pay.

Someome HAS to pay for a govt mandated plan....

I don't recieve any Medicare...but I STILL PAY Medicare taxes.....(and so do you....look at your pay stub).

Steve

[lovesfortune]

Thank you JackieB for your detailed and informative post. :)

I'm glad that we have a nice flow of information and thoughts going here. And that no one is making me feel stupid for bringing it up in the first place.

[HoustonFarrier]

And that no one is making me feel stupid for bringing it up in the first place.
You're asking good questions...I hope we can help you find a good solution....keep asking !:)

Steve

[JackieB]

My husband and I have always shopped for insurance based on what we can afford to pay, both monthly for the premiums, and what we could afford to pay on our own for basic care, and we've tried to choose plans that would cover catastrophic care or serious injuries, but not necessarily the little things.

Without divulging any specific medical conditions, do you mind if I ask if you or WBoy have any preexisting conditions? This is so important to me, and McCain's plan does nothing to address this issue.

For example, BCBS of Michigan has to sell a plan to me after I exhaust COBRA. It's a huge group plan and the premiums are reasonable. However, they are pushing hard to create a "high risk" pool based on pre-existing conditions. Anyone with a serious chronic illness such as diabetes, a cancer survivor, or perhaps even me since I take blood pressure and cholesterol medicine, would go into this pool. The current premium is about $250 a month. If they can get the high risk amendment passed, it could be as high as $1,400 a month.

I don't blame the insurance companies, really. There isn't any business sense in providing insurance coverage to someone who has a good chance of costing more than that person pays in premiums. Spread over a large group, the insurer can still earn money, but it's a lot safer for their bottom line to just deny that person coverage or charge a fee so large that the client might not sign up.

[lovesfortune]

So is health care one of the MAIN factors that went into your decision on a canidate? If not, what is the most important issue for you?

I wish the debates went into detail like this and didn't just same the same speech over and over again...

[vicklynn]

I am not sure why people are on McCain cause he isnt trying to change the plan that is in enforce now.

Check this out. I have a med the doc prescribed to me, cause I dont like over the counter PMS pills, why, cause they knock me out, so the doc prescribed Zoloft, to take as needed for PMS, but beings that pill is used for mental disorders, I now have a mental disorder, so says the underwriters, and I have to have a doc appeal that and 6 other issues that the underwriter says is an issue with me. Obama will not fix this, so Im not sure what people are thinking about. If your doc wants you to have a prescription, find out first if you can get an OTC pill first, cause once in your record, your scre....ed. End of story, its that simple.
I dont get it, unless youve been on the search side, have had issues that are not issues, you wont know. You cant fight something that isnt there?????? So, its not all about the insurance, cause you got to watch your back with your doc just as much. If I were you, whom ever you is, I would check my med records, cause your insurance company relies on them to determine the price you pay.

[vicklynn]

So is health care one of the MAIN factors that went into your decision on a canidate? If not, what is the most important issue for you?

I wish the debates went into detail like this and didn't just same the same speech over and over again...

No it isnt, cause your gonna search it out today, so why not tomorrow.

Im for America, so Im for McCain.

[JackieB]

Thank you JackieB for your detailed and informative post. :)

I'm glad that we have a nice flow of information and thoughts going here. And that no one is making me feel stupid for bringing it up in the first place.

You're welcome, and I think it's great that you brought this up. I think we can all benefit from a spirited discussion, and I have long felt that access to affordable healthcare (it doesn't have to be provided by the government for free, just at premium rates we can pay like car insurance or home insurance) is a fundamental right of citizens who live in a country as wealthy and blessed as the United States.

[WashingtonBay]

Without divulging any specific medical conditions, do you mind if I ask if you or WBoy have any preexisting conditions? This is so important to me, and McCain's plan does nothing to address this issue.

For example, BCBS of Michigan has to sell a plan to me after I exhaust COBRA. It's a huge group plan and the premiums are reasonable. However, they are pushing hard to create a "high risk" pool based on pre-existing conditions. Anyone with a serious chronic illness such as diabetes, a cancer survivor, or perhaps even me since I take blood pressure and cholesterol medicine, would go into this pool. The current premium is about $250 a month. If they can get the high risk amendment passed, it could be as high as $1,400 a month.

I don't blame the insurance companies, really. There isn't any business sense in providing insurance coverage to someone who has a good chance of costing more than that person pays in premiums. Spread over a large group, the insurer can still earn money, but it's a lot safer for their bottom line to just deny that person coverage or charge a fee so large that the client might not sign up.

We don't. We have very little need for ongoing medical care right now, which is why I'd wish our coverage would be very cheap. Cheaper than it is. I've paid several thousand dollars in premiums the past couple of years and have yet to even see a doctor.

People with pre-existing conditions who change health insurance providers should expect to be in a higher premium group. I do think though, that there should be a mandate that they need to offer the policies. It's not easy to decide on what's really fair in that case though. Insurance is a game of chance for the insurance company. They do deserve the right to charge premiums based on expected risk of payout that will foreseeably still make them a profit in the long term, most of the time. It's not a charity, it's a business.

[JackieB]

I have on question.
I search and search and search now for health care, so whats the diff if McCain has you doing the same search Im doing now?????

There isn't a difference. That's one of the big reasons why I don't think his plan is as good as Obama's. McCain is providing some important assistance in paying for healthcare, which I think is commendable, but he doesn't address the issue of universal access to coverage.

[JackieB]

That isn't exactly what I said. I said everyone can get health CARE when they need it, whether they can afford it or not. It was in a conversation about whether people had access to universal health care in this country, not universal health coverage. We don't turn people away from emergency rooms for inability to pay. They may face bankruptcy, but not lack of emergency care.

Oh, I apologize for twisting your words around. You're welcome to delete my post if you wish, or I'll be glad to. I understand what you mean now and that is different from how I interpreted your original statement.

[JackieB]

People with pre-existing conditions who change health insurance providers should expect to be in a higher premium group....Insurance is a game of chance for the insurance company. They do deserve the right to charge premiums based on expected risk of payout that will foreseeably still make them a profit in the long term, most of the time. It's not a charity, it's a business.

I understand, and as I said earlier, I don't really fault the insurance companies. But let's say that I had a heart attack at a young age, but recovered well and was reasonably healthy. You can bet your bottom dollar that I would go in the highest risk group they've got because one more serious cardiac incident for me would instantly make me an unprofitable customer for that insurer. So, using my example from Michigan (based on real information my wife and I obtained on BCBS's attempt to institute high risk pool), my premiums would go from $250 a month to perhaps $1,400 a month.

There is no way that I can afford $1,400 a month, so I guess I'd go without insurance and hope that if I had another heart attack that I'd die before I got to the hospital, because the care I needed could wipe out most, or all, of our life savings and I'd leave my beloved wife behind to live like a pauper for the rest of her days.

This may be fair on some level. Perhaps I should have eaten better or exercised more. But if I have the opportunity to buy affordable insurance from a government plan, even one that isn't as good as what a quality private insurer offers, I'll take that for sure. + This may be fair on some level. Perhaps I should have eaten better or exercised more. But if I have the opportunity to buy affordable insurance from a government plan, even one that isn't as good as what a quality private insurer offers, I'll take that for sure.

[WashingtonBay]

Oh, I apologize for twisting your words around. You're welcome to delete my post if you wish, or I'll be glad to. I understand what you mean now and that is different from how I interpreted your original statement.

Nope - leave it, as long as I'm still here to clarify - it all adds to the discussion. :)

[WashingtonBay]

Jackie... I knew this would happen eventually.... I hit the wrong button and EDITED your post 27 instead of QUOTING it in a reply. The moderator buttons are too close together.

Leave it be for now, I'm trying to learn how to undo it.

NEW BUTTONS! ARGH!

On edit - Jackie, is your post 27 above pretty much as you left it before I mucked it up?

Eeek. Now I'm too frazzled to reply again. ;) I'm dangerous with new buttons! I'm putting myself in time-out.

[lovesfortune]

I'm putting myself in time-out.

:eek: WB is in time out? AH!!! :p

[rums_mom]

When I got pregnant with my son, I was in a 30 day window where I did not have insurance coverage..go figure right?

So when I had a c-section due to him being frank breech, we paid over $10,000 in medical bills because the insurance company would not cover my pregnancy. Now this was in 1987 so the figure for a c-section these days would be much more. I had a perfectly normal pregnancy, no complications until he flipped at 32 weeks and was large so he couldn't right himself. No insurance company paid a penny for the birth or prenatal. My doctors and midwife said there was no medical reason I would not go on to have normal deliveries in the future.

When we applied for our own insurance afterwards, the insurance company put in a rider that they would not cover me for any future pregnancies since I was "high risk" for another c-section. Even after my doctors and midwife wrote letters to the insurance company, they would not cover me....Now at this point I had been paying "into" the insurance system for 7 years. $200 a month for seven years, $2400 yr x 7 = $16,800 that I already paid into a system, but was young and healthy and sure didn't ever even have that much in medical expenses. Plus I worked at a hospital for those years where I got my medical care covered.

It was years later and only because my husband had employer based insurance was I able to get coverage for future pregnancies. BTW, when I had my daughter in 1991, I had a VBAC (vaginal birth after caesaren) and my total hospital bill was under $2000.

That is one example of having a "pre-existing" condition and being considered high risk. Since then we have paid tens of thousands of dollars in premiums and never have used as much as we paid in, but in case of emergency or god forbid a life threatening condition, you need to have it or you could lose everything.

Shall I tell you about how my husband couldn't get coverage for conjunctivitis because one time his doctor diagnosed him with allergic conjunctivitis? Yep, pre-existing condition that the insurance company wouldn't pay for..............

[WashingtonBay]

Heh... I knew it would happen eventually. I've almost done it a couple times, but then caught myself. See how you have Edit and Quote buttons on all your posts? I have that for every post, even the ones that aren't mine. :doh: And it's very confusing!

[lovesfortune]

So... mom2rum, you are for Obama right? Is his healthcare plan part of why you are voting?

And you are right, c-sections are a lot more these days. I have had 2 c-sections and just for the one (over 2 years ago)it was over $20,000 before insurance. We still ended up paying about $6,000 out of pocket though for that one.

The ins and outs of the healthcare system are truly baffling. I really had no idea about all of this "pre existing" condition stuff for things other than the really obvious things. I have been very naive...which I would say A LOT of people are.

[WashingtonBay]

Regarding pre-existing conditions... I know it's rough now, and I don't like it, but I don't know how to make it more fair, short of becoming king.

I know I knew I had carpul tunnel years ago, but with changing jobs and vigilant avoidance of wanting to deal with it, I've 'treated' it myself and avoided ever having it looked at because I don't want it to become a pre-existing condition three insurance companies from now if and when I can no longer manage it with bracing and ergonomic changes to my computing. And that's a little thing. Pre-existing conditions is a big problem.

[SedonaThunder]

OK... reading through this and realizing I too am naive and am feeling a little nervous. WB - you mention CT... I have seen the doc to complain about it and ask which brace or treatment (other than surgery) but it hasn't bothered me in quite a while now. Are you telling me that it will now be a "pre-existing condition" if it ever flairs back up and I have changed insurance companies? And my lower back issues?

[WashingtonBay]

It could be! It will depend on if the new insurance company goes to look for it in your history. That's what's so dubious about the whole thing.

I mean, what they didn't want is for people to come in and not disclose that they already know they have cancer when they're applying for coverage, and then announce it after they have a policy. There's something about that that is unfair to the insurance company who is assessing risk.

It's like applying for auto insurance the day after you wreck your car, and wanting coverage for the damage.

But our bodies are not like a car, and our need for coverage is ongoing for an ever-changing body, not a one time accident. There are a lot of complicated issues.

[WashingtonBay]

One follow up for Sedona... I also think as long as you go directly from one insurance company to another, the exemptions for pre-existing conditions doesn't apply, but it might be part of what goes into your new rate. There is a principle in insurance that considers continuity of coverage when assessing risk. IOW, they assume your conditions have all been disclosed. It's when you have a gap in coverage that they can exempt you.... I think. It works that way in auto coverage too. I canceled insurance on a car after it was hit and totaled by the other party's insurance. I ended up fixing the car and my insurance wouldn't pick it up again because there had been a lapse on THAT car. I was assumed to be high risk of fraud, I guess because I might have turned around and claimed damage that actually happened during the gap. Make sense? Anyone who knows the specifics on medical, feel free to correct me.

[JackieB]

On edit - Jackie, is your post 27 above pretty much as you left it before I mucked it up?


Yes, it looks just great. Thanks for asking.

And I just have to say that the functionality, color pallette, everything about this new forum is wonderful! I just love it.

[SedonaThunder]

One follow up for Sedona... I also think as long as you go directly from one insurance company to another, the exemptions for pre-existing conditions doesn't apply, but it might be part of what goes into your new rate. There is a principle in insurance that considers continuity of coverage when assessing risk.

Hmm, thanks WB. This really makes you think about what you might not want to go to the doc for. My medical insurance is covered by my employer (work for the city) now but it is Group Health and it definitely lacks... but I try not to complain as I know there are others out there without any coverage.

Speaking of the mess that insurance is because of big employers (like the city) paying everything and not paying close attention... I have been AMAZED at what our dental coverage gets away with. I think those &@$!@^#$ would have crowned every one of my molars had I let them! I've seen (peering over the counter) the astronimcal fees they are charging while smiling at me and asking for my $5 co-pay.:doh:

[Pinky]

Obama is using charisma and speech to get to people. To bad they dont see it.

*cough* Tony Blair *cough*

The NHS over here is a life saver for many families. Sure, it costs a lot to run but about 90% of people in the UK have no insurance, and would have no insurance if the NHS wasn't there.

Whoever happens to be in power is still going to take a ridiculous amount of money off regular people and spend it on nothing.
If a PM/Pres. actually stuck to all of their 'promises' the world would be so shocked maybe it would make other people sit up and pay attention.

I guess you can dream, huh.

I've been following US politics very closely and lately it seems to be more out-and-out insults. With the debate last night (I stayed up till 4am to watch it) I was quite surprised when it got to the part about Mcain saying how 'quiet' he is (but how loud is his VP;)). And then Obama brings up the 'bomb, bomb, bomb Iran' thing.

Would it kill them both just to grow up and act like adults?

[Harleys Owner]

One thing I have learned recently when dealing with Health Insurance Co.'s is if they give you any kind of hassle at all...send everything you have, bills, insurance replies, write a letter explaining what you think is going on, to the Insurance Commissioner. I didn't know to do that until a doctor's office told me about it, and since the bills were over 6 months in pending, I sent them all in to the commissioner and within 2 weeks the Insurance Co. started paying bills right and left. Within 2 weeks they had paid over $80,000 worth of doctor bills, that they had been stalling on for over 6 months. So if the claim is legit, don't even bother with fussing with the Co., send it all in to the commissioner. Sad that it has to be that way, but that's the way it works.

[starkitten]

I work for a 3rd party insurance administrator (started out in the COBRA dept). As far as preexisting conditions - the HIPAA law requires a group insurance accept such conditions as long as you have had 18 months of continuous coverage.

[WashingtonBay]

Would it kill them both just to grow up and act like adults? I agree Pinky... there used to be a certain politeness that gave respect to candidates and holders of office, out of respect to the institutions and the office, if not because of the men. I think we've all gotten cruder, and give less respect and reverence than we used to.

That said, I used to really enjoy watching your House of Commons years ago, though I've fallen out of the habit lately. They're pretty rough and tumble in there, throwing insults around, too... though it sounds inherently more civilized when it's done with an English accent.

[WashingtonBay]

Good tip about the insurance commissioner Becky.... just for clarification, because I'm not sure... is that a state office?

[Harleys Owner]

Yes, it is.

[twofingers]

responsibility.
now back to my actual thought. what if all these people whose unions throw money at the politicians- Tens of millions every eleaction cycle. would demand that the union instead of waisting that money put it toward a health insurance program. and actually provide for the union members -as their charters state? in this way the the union members would benefit from the dues they pay rather than the flatulent union officers, high priced political consultants, national advertising agencies and of course those fecal brained maggots occupying the various city state and federal government positions. these insurance funds would be, as mentioned above, infused with hundreds of millions at least every 2 years [cause election cycles are every two years not every 4] Oh wait I forgot it is not the unions responsibility to help their members.
and for those of you who really need the government to jump in- can you say- veterans health care is the bestest ever.

[JackieB]

Would it kill them both just to grow up and act like adults?

Ultimately, it's not really their fault, Pinky. It's fine to stay polite, respectful, and focused on issues rather than insults, but only if a candidate doesn't want to win an election. The fact is that negative campaigning is so effective in the U.S. that anyone who refuses to engage in it will not win any election beyond the smallest, most local positions.

So, essentially the candidates are merely giving us what we want. If U.S. citizens are really tired of the negativity then they need to admonish candidates to stop using negative tactics, and refuse to repeat comments made by their favored candidates or their political party if those comments are unfair or inaccurate.

[JackieB]

I work for a 3rd party insurance administrator (started out in the COBRA dept). As far as preexisting conditions - the HIPAA law requires a group insurance accept such conditions as long as you have had 18 months of continuous coverage.

But one can be forced to exhaust COBRA coverage first. I'm getting ready to do that starting at the end of this month. Ultimately, I want one of the Blue Cross/Blue Shield policies offered to residents of the state of Michigan. The premium is a somewhat-affordable $250 a month for me. However, if I want to avoid the pre-existing condition clause, I have to accept the COBRA option (I was released from my company during a reorganization) for 18 months. That premium is a lot more and I have to pay it every month for 18 months.

We decided that we just didn't want to risk the possibility that I could get some illness that the insurance company might claim resulted from a pre-existing condition, so we're going to COBRA our benefits. It's a pile of money that many families wouldn't even be able to consider spending.

[starkitten]

Oh yeah - I totally understand that with the COBRA JackieB. I agree with you - the premiums for COBRA our out of reach for many individuals.

[TLC97]

WOW, this is good. And this issue hits VERY close to home for us. Hubby is self-employed and does well. I would rather work for a non-profit part-time, but instead I work for a school, reason is for health ins. As a family of three (hubby, 7 yr old son & I) we really wanted full coverage and I have some prescriptions that are not cheap, TMJ issues, girly probs., and son has asthma and is a typical 7 yr old. I have good coverage through my employer and to purchase that same coverage is over $1800 a month. Plus there are only a few insurance companies who will sell covereage in Maine because our state laws are so screwed up.

My vote (first time said publicly) will be for McCain, his ins. package is better for me and his tax plan is better. Under Obama the insurance would not help hubby offer it to his employees and we would pay $6k a year more in taxes, UM NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Tatesgram]

This is a link to an interesting article, not the one I was looking for. The article I read before, was about a group of doctors that do not take insurance. They charged $50 a visit, but you had to sign a waiver that you would not sue them if you disagreed with their diagnosis or care. You would agree to an arbitrator(sp?).

http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the_health_care_blog/2008/07/doctors-who-don.html

My dad was in the hospital, went in for a viral infection of some sort, which they treated with an IV. They also proceeded to run numerous tests and each test they would come up with a different diagnosis. The last day he was there, the nurse came in with an IV, dad asked what it was for and she said she didn't know would have to ask the Dr. Came back and said it was for the infection, dad told her it was cleared up, she went and got the Dr. Dad told him to bring the paperwork he was going home. In other words, dad had really good insurance.

[WashingtonBay]

I'd love that Tates... :)

[rums_mom]

JackieB....I always thought that you had up to 18 mos of COBRA coverage but you can opt out at anytime during that period if you get other coverage or just don't want to pay anymore.

Each state is different, so maybe that is the way it is in MI? In NC, they passed a law a few years back abolishing the pre-existing condition clause for insurance companies as long as you do not have a lapse in coverage of more than 60 days, I think it is 60 days, maybe 120? But for most states as long as you do not have a lapse in coverage the insurance company waives the pre-existing condition clause. Back in the day, insurance companies would even waive their deductible if you had already paid the deductible with another company.............

Yes, lovesfortune, Obama's plans for insurance are one of the reasons I support him. I feel that having so many Americans without health insurance is a travesty. From what I have heard and read, McCain's plan will give you $6000 to buy your own policy, but how much does $6000 really buy? Right now, with my employer's plan and I am a state employee, I pay almost $700 for health, vision and dental coverage. My portion of the health part is paid by my employer, so if I was paying for myself as well, it would be $1000 a month. My husband's previous employer gave $100 credit to each employee to go towards insurance, their plan was costing us $1000 a month. So about $12,000 a year is what you need for a good policy that doesn't have an exorbitant deductible and copays.

The insurance industry as it works today is a racket, pure and simple...............

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/stories/2005/05/16/story2.html

During this time when BCBSNC gave raises and big bonuses to their executives, BCBSNC raised its premiums, including my state plan, they also cut payments to health care providers and raised copay amounts.

[rums_mom]

My chiropractor is a straight cash business. The truth is that filing insurance is time consuming and posting ins. payments is complicated. I did it for many years, and this was back in the day of HMO's and Managed Care when you had to get authorizations for specialists. If you did not have a pre-authorization, the insurance company would refuse to pay for the visits. In a small practice, one person can do it but in a large practice it takes more, so the medical practice's overhead increases because they have to employ more people just to take insurance.

[starkitten]

You are right rumsmom you can opt out of COBRA anytime - You just have to have 18 months continuous coverage total - not necessarily counting your COBRA time. They just give you the option of keeping COBRA for 18 months in case you need that 18 months.

[rums_mom]

That's what I thought, thanks.

[HoustonFarrier]

Lets take a closer look at Obamas plan......

Directly quoted from HIS website (BOLD is my emphasis).......


They will also create a new Small Business Health Tax Credit to provide small businesses with a refundable tax credit of up to 50 percent on premiums paid by small businesses on behalf of their employees. To be eligible for the credit, small businesses will have to offer a quality health plan to all of their employees and cover a meaningful share of the cost of employee health premiums.
What EXACTLY will be meaningful???? What that amount is will determine whether the Tax Credit they want to give will actually help or hurt the Small Business. Kinda like sugar-free soda.......seems like a good idea...but with a bad after-taste:)


Large employers that do not offer meaningful coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement.
Sounds nice....BUT.....what differentiates a "Large" company from a "Small" company???? And, again, define "meaningful"

Here's the SOCIALIST in Obama coming out.....read it VERY CAREFULLY...

Barack Obama and Joe Biden believe that protecting and promoting health and wellness in this nation is a shared responsibility among individuals and families, school systems, employers, the medical and public health workforce, and federal and state and local governments. All parties must do their part, as well as collaborate with one another, to create the conditions and opportunities that will allow and encourage Americans to adopt healthy lifestyles.

What that means is.....we ALL should pay for each others health insurance......TAXES!

Steve

[Tatesgram]

During this time when BCBSNC gave raises and big bonuses to their executives, BCBSNC raised its premiums, including my state plan, they also cut payments to health care providers and raised copay amounts.

Some may disagree with me, but that kind of "income", is obscene. We have teachers, police officers, nurses that work hard and put themselves out there every day for a fraction of what these boneheads make. It drives me nuts:crazy:

I don't know a single person that deserves that kind of money. Not unless they can cure cancer and guarantee that a child will never again go hungry, be hurt or sick again.

Oh me, I'll stop before I really get carried away :mad:

[HoustonFarrier]

Some may disagree with me, but that kind of "income", is obscene.

While I do tend to agree, the hard part is...how do we define what is a "fair" income??? Is that defined 'fairness" the same across the board...for EVERY job in the US? If there is a "limit" to incomes......where then, does one get motivation to work?

Is $20 and hour the figure?? $30 per hour.....$50 per hour???? See where I'm going. Now, some of the BONUS's these schmucks have been pulling down while the companies have been getting trashed.

Steve

[JackieB]

Here's the SOCIALIST in Obama coming out.....read it VERY CAREFULLY...

What that means is.....we ALL should pay for each others health insurance......TAXES!

Steve


Steve,
We all pay for each other's military protection, access to the interstate highway system (except toll roads), air traffic control system, and many other government programs with our tax dollars. Are those all socialist initiatives that should be eliminated?

I don't think it's fair to say that the Obama/Biden health care plan is "socialist" as much as it is to say that you place a different priority on it than those who support the Obama/Biden health care plan.

You don't think it's a high enough priority to warrant having your tax dollars go toward helping fund healthcare. So don't vote for Obama/Biden if you were planning to do so before this thread. :) I do think it's a high enough priority to contribute my share to helping every U.S. citizen gain access to affordable healthcare. And I also am confident that our contributions will be affordable.

I've said this before and I'll repeat it now. Almost all U.S. citizens, even those on the far right, are in favor of "Big Government". It's just a matter of how they set their priorities. Military spending, earmarks going into Tom Delay's district (previous district now), and so on are all wise expenditures of taxpayer money. What the other side wants, not so much.

[rocknK]

Last time I checked the Bill of Rights health care wasn't mentioned at all.

[Tatesgram]

While I do tend to agree, the hard part is...how do we define what is a "fair" income??? Is that defined 'fairness" the same across the board...for EVERY job in the US? If there is a "limit" to incomes......where then, does one get motivation to work?

Is $20 and hour the figure?? $30 per hour.....$50 per hour???? See where I'm going. Now, some of the BONUS's these schmucks have been pulling down while the companies have been getting trashed.

Steve

I totally agree with you. If you become a millionaire because you work hard or are just a genius, that's fine. No problem. It's the a$$ kissers, that move up in a company because they take advantage, or have the right contacts. I once had a boss that gave me bad reviews because I didn't delegate. There was no one below me. There were four in our department. Each department was given an amount for raises, this boss decided what percentage each person received based on their yearly review. Since he consistently gave me, and my co-worker, bad reviews, where did the money go?

I just think of the AIG exec's that went on that little get-away and it makes my blood boil. I've heard numerous times about a company filling bankruptcy, then they appeal to the court for permission to give the execs bonus' :rant:. If they were in charge and the company went under, couldn't it be because of them?

Believe me, if I work for it, I don't want anyone telling me I have to give it to someone else because they were too lazy to get a job and earn the same thing. And I don't want anyone giving me anything I haven't earned.

[Tatesgram]

[quote]Almost all U.S. citizens, even those on the far right, are in favor of "Big Government". It's just a matter of how they set their priorities.[quote]

Jackie, I have to disagree with this. I think the government is way too invasive now. We can discuss this on another. I have a feeling it would take this one over.

[JackieB]

Last time I checked the Bill of Rights health care wasn't mentioned at all.

So government-funded programs, outside of those either directly or indirectly mentioned in the Bill of Rights are socialist?

[JackieB]

[quote]Almost all U.S. citizens, even those on the far right, are in favor of "Big Government". It's just a matter of how they set their priorities.[quote]

Jackie, I have to disagree with this. I think the government is way too invasive now. We can discuss this on another. I have a feeling it would take this one over.

Great. Let's establish a new threat to discuss this one sometime.

[rocknK]

I'm going WAY back....but isn't the
federal government supposed to print money, provide for the common defense....I can't remember more than that. Everything else is supposed to be up to the States.

[mtnmollie]

That's my take on things Rock k.

But after WW 2 we started gov't agency's.
We in our great wisdom put our check and balance system Pres/ Judical / congress in one box- like the Forest Service box. They govern themselves-

Not even congress can handle them anymore.

The Judical branch began making laws- Row vs Wayde is an example.

Expencies climbed. Paul Harvey said gov't regulation is making med costs climb.

I broke my leg and needed an ex- ray. One hundred dollars. My horse also needed an ex- ray- ten dollars.

Time passed . I broke my leg and needed an ex- ray. Four hunderd dollars.
My horse also needed an ex- ray. Twenty dollars.

AS medical costs rose- the people called out to the government - please help us- help us.

Meanwhile the Canadians with free medical came to Spookane Washinton for help to.
The line was too long in Canada. Pay or die. Them in Canada paid twice. They paid for gov't health care in Canada- and came here and paid again.

I could go to my vet- but that's against the law.
Uncle Sam is watching out for me- yes sir.

[mtnmollie]

Government is good at wasting money and not getting the job done.

I'm surprised anything works.

I delivered mail.
I was told to send back mail not addressed correctly-
disobey the boss you can loose yer job.

Send it back? That's alot of work, it is in my hand I know where it goes....

[JackieB]

I'm going WAY back....but isn't the
federal government supposed to print money, provide for the common defense....I can't remember more than that. Everything else is supposed to be up to the States.

Well, that is the idea. But we're beyond that a long ways, and I don't know that it's fair to say that we have abandoned the Constitution. The First Amendment guarantees the right of citizens to appeal to government for change. Programs and agencies such as Social Security, Medicare, air traffic control, interstate highways, national parks, and the CDC weren't envisioned in the Constitution and Bill of Rights, but I wouldn't say that this necessarily places them outside of the Constitution.

Social Security and Medicare definitely meet the criteria of "socialism" according to the definition of spreading the wealth and responsibility for others around, but I don't see many clamoring to abolish them. Certainly not anyone who wants to be elected as a representative, senator, or president.

[rocknK]

At least some folks pay something into Social Security & MediCare. Not totally socialist.

[mtnmollie]

Just put one toe in the water at a time- and then your foot.

[mtnmollie]

1) socialism/communism = the government meets yer needs. hehe he he

2) Free Enterprise - You have the freedom to meet yor own needs- or not.

The bigger the government- the more the people are enslaved.

[JackieB]

At least some folks pay something into Social Security & MediCare. Not totally socialist.

Obama's health care plan isn't free to subscribers if that's what you mean. However, the premiums would be affordable because the group would be so large (tens of millions) and no exclusions for pre-existing conditions would be allowed.

[rums_mom]

And now our system of health care is so expensive that some employers are offering options of using foreign medical services in India for example. The quality of care is supposed to be equivalent to ours but costs much less.

Let me tell you about this example:

Several years ago I had sinus surgery. The cost of the surgery billed to insurance was about $20,000. With the write offs that the hospital took off due to them being on contract with the insurance company, the hospital got $2500.00. My deductible and copay was about $3000. So I ended up paying more to the hospital than the insurance company did. How freaking crazy is that?

[HoustonFarrier]

Steve,
We all pay for each other's military protection, access to the interstate highway system (except toll roads), air traffic control system, and many other government programs with our tax dollars

They have value to me...in other words, I am getting a service for that tax $$$$. I get NO SERVICE when I have my tax $$$ going towards paying OTHER PEOPLES health care. For the last 35 years, I have been pumping money into welfare....what have I gotten in return???? NOTHING!

The following are rhetorical questions...

If I can afford my own....why can't EVERYONE ELSE???
If I can save $$$ by living within my means, so I have a buffer for emergencies.....why can't everyone else?
If I can MODIFY my means of living when I need to, and NOT take welfare handouts, why can't everyone else?

For those of you who WANT the govt to provide you healthcare...what are you going to do to EARN it.

Anyone remember who said this.....

"...ask NOT what your country can do for you....ask what YOU can do for your conutry........."

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

And now our system of health care is so expensive that some employers are offering options of using foreign medical services in India for example
EXACTLY WHAT medical services...be specific.

Steve

[mtnmollie]

Health care would not be so expensive if we could just go to the vet. LOL.

My Uncle Gunnell went to the vet when he broke his arm- LOL>

[JackieB]

For those of you who WANT the govt to provide you healthcare...what are you going to do to EARN it.


I'm not demanding that the government provide me with health care free of charge, Steve. Those who sign up for Obama's plan (if he is elected) will pay premiums for it. It's just that the premiums will be able to be quite affordable because the group will be enormous (tens of millions) and there won't be any pre-existing clauses.

I do think that as a "civilized" society that we should provide health care to children if their parents can't or won't. It's just the right thing to do in a country as wealthy as ours.

[rums_mom]

EXACTLY WHAT medical services...be specific.

Steve


Hip replacements, knee replacements, cardiac related surgeries including bypass surgery. Other surgical options that are not FDA approved yet in the USA. The employers' insurance covered it because they have a special policy for this since it saves the insurance company money.

Other foreign options: Stem cell surgery............I know a young lady that was paralyzed from a car accident. She could not get stem cell surgery in the USA, even though it was using her OWN stem cells from her nasal passages, she ended up going somewhere in South America. I'll have to check on her progress but last I heard about 2 years ago, she was standing up on her own and taking a few steps. Of course insurance wouldn't pay for this so she had fundraisers to get the money for it.

[HoustonFarrier]

Those who sign up for Obama's plan (if he is elected) will pay premiums for it. It's just that the premiums will be able to be quite affordable because the group will be enormous (tens of millions) and there won't be any pre-existing clauses.

The problem is Jackie...I won't be signing up...but MY TAX dollars will still be used for it...so, in effect, I will be helping to pay for other peoples health insurance. I've been doing that for 35 years, and I'm sick and tired of it. Obama is not going to come right out and say there will be taxes for it...he'd never get elected if he did...but I guarantee you, we will be taxed for his health care.

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

Hip replacements, knee replacements, cardiac related surgeries including bypass surgery. .

So...let me see if I understand this. Are you telling me that there are insurance plans that will NOT pay for a knee replacement in the US, but WILL pay if a person goes to India and gets it done?????

Steve

[rums_mom]

[QUOTE=HoustonFarrier;6763]They have value to me...in other words, I am getting a service for that tax $$$$. I get NO SERVICE when I have my tax $$$ going towards paying OTHER PEOPLES health care. For the last 35 years, I have been pumping money into welfare....what have I gotten in return???? NOTHING!

Steve, I hear the same position from people who don't have kids but their taxes pay for public education and my response is a quote taken from Marian Wright Edelman. There is another one that I really like but I cannot find it right now, so this one will do.;)

"If we think we have ours and don't owe any time or money or effort to help those left behind, then we are a part of the problem rather than the solution to the fraying social fabric that threatens all Americans." Marian Wright Edelman

In case you do not know who she is:
Marian Wright Edelman, the founder and President of the Children's Defense Fund, was the first African American woman admitted to the Mississippi state bar. Marian Wright Edelman has published her ideas in several books.

And I agree with her wholeheartedly, if we do not invest in our children now we will lose our future.
http://www.j-bradford-delong.net/politics/edelman_open_letter.html

[rums_mom]

So...let me see if I understand this. Are you telling me that there are insurance plans that will NOT pay for a knee replacement in the US, but WILL pay if a person goes to India and gets it done?????

Steve

Did I say that? No so you are misunderstanding what I am saying. There are employers who offer an option for their employees to have surgery abroad because it saves the insurance company money, not because those surgeries are not done here but because they cost a substantial amount MORE if done here. But there are some procedures not done in the USA because they have not been FDA approved that are approved in other countries. Some people are willing to pay out of pocket to go out of the USA for treatment even with surgery because they end up paying less for it.

Maybe this will explain it better:
http://www.medical-tourism-india.com/india_vs_USA.htm

[HoustonFarrier]

Marian Edelman is just another socialist, IMHO. Education is a different subject than health care. Education is generally a short term item, and there are already good services in place for education...so I don't see that as a problem. In fact, I would say that NOT ENOUGH people use it. Unlike health services, society in general does have the potential to reap benefit from supporting education, for, it is through education that one see enlightenment(unless they are REAL dumb:p).

People who take, take, take from society and give nothing in return are the problem...and government EXPANDING that is not helping anyone. It merely creates a class of dependant people.

Like I said, I have been contributing my tax dollars to society for 35 years.......exactly what problem have I caused as Ms Edelman says?????

Steve

[mtnmollie]

"they cost a substantial amount MORE " here.

Why? Why is that?

It is cheaper to live in mexico. Retired Americans move there...

Why? Why is it cheaper?

[HoustonFarrier]

Did I say that?
That is why I was asking for clarification....geez, I can't win for losing.

There are employers who offer an option for their employees to have surgery abroad because it saves the insurance company money
I don't see anything wrong with that. It's good business sense. It's an option....what is wrong with that? What is better....being told you HAVE to go ONLY this place for services...or being told you have (x) number of options, you pick the one you want.

But there are some procedures not done in the USA because they have not been FDA approved that are approved in other countries.
And we all have that option, living in a free (for now) society to go wherever we want, to get whatever we want done. I don't see the problem?

Steve

[rocknK]

Education is something that parents should provide for their children, not the state. Didn't see any right to be smart in the Bill of Rights either.

[rums_mom]

So Steve, where do you think the future professionals that you will rely on in your old age are going to come from if we do not invest in educating them now?

Do you think all the doctors, nurses, lab tecs, vets, etc. are going to come from only upper class families that can pay for their education? Do you think the majority will want to go into geriatrics or family medicine? Fields that do not pay as much as plastic surgery or general surgery?

You can call Ms. Edelman whatever you want, but given my druthers I would rather support socialism than fascism. We are moving towards government supported banks and auto makers, and that is OK. But support someone who advocates government sanctioned health care or education and all of a sudden you are up in arms.
I should have known better than try to express my opinion or discuss this with you, you preach the same old rhetoric.

So all your surgeries and health related issues were paid out of pocket by you? Or were they covered by a government sponsored program? So you got yours, the hell with everyone else, right? Same old same old from you Steve.

[rums_mom]

Once again, did I ever say it was a problem? I was just pointing out that if our health care system is so fantastic and affordable, why would people choose to go elsewhere. This is a growing trend and I most certainly would consider it if I needed elective surgery in the future.

[JackieB]

Education is something that parents should provide for their children, not the state. Didn't see any right to be smart in the Bill of Rights either.

I disagree with this as strongly as possible, rocknK. The only thing that has ever proven to significantly improve the human condition is knowledge/education. Or one could make a strong argument to that effect anyway. We all benefit greatly from providing education to our citizens.

[JackieB]

I think we're really down to simply a difference in priorities, Steve. I feel that you, and all of us, do benefit when we pitch in to help care for others in society. Not an undue burden or responsibility of course, but our fair share. I don't mean to sound pious or haughty in the slightest, but it is an uplifting feel to know that one is helping his/her fellow citizens. And healthcare is very important.

Now I understand where you are coming from on the welfare issue. I don't mind paying some taxes to help with welfare, and it's not a very significant portion of the budget overall (excluding Social Security and Medicare which are huge, of course), but it bothers me greatly that some of this money (many would say "most", I suppose) contributes to undermining self-sufficiency and a strong work ethic. It's not the money that bothers me, but the fact that when this happens, it harms the recipients more than it helps them. A child growing up observing parents without good work habits has a tough challenge to break out of that nasty cycle.

[rocknK]

Publik schools are a giant money pit as far as I'm concerned. Top heavy administration, short school days etc. Private schools tend to be more efficent & less costly per pupil, not to mention more in tune with parents concerns. Not to mention home schooling. Some of the smartest kids I've met have be taught by their parents. Did you catch the reoccurring word, parents. Parents need to be involved in their kids education. Not the nanny state.

[HoustonFarrier]

So Steve, where do you think the future professionals that you will rely on in your old age are going to come from if we do not invest in educating them now?
Are you mental???? Did you not read this, when I wrote.....

Education is a different subject than health care. Education is generally a short term item, and there are already good services in place for education...so I don't see that as a problem. In fact, I would say that NOT ENOUGH people use it.

So all your surgeries and health related issues were paid out of pocket by you? Or were they covered by a government sponsored program?
They were paid for using employer provided insurance...AND me paying the deductables. ALL OF THEM. And you have NEVER heard me griping about it. I don't NEED the government to take care of me...I have far too much pride. While the system may not be perfect....it's a lot better than any other country in the world...and I've been to about 20 other countries over the years.

So you got yours, the hell with everyone else, right? Same old same old from you Steve.

I EARNED everything I have. I have been working 2 jobs since I was 20 years old. I'm almost 50 now, and STILL working 2 jobs. I am not a burden to society...unlike others. I have no problem with giving an occasional helping hand......but when the "helping hand" lasts a lifetime, I have serious reservations about that.

I should have known better than try to express my opinion or discuss this with you, you preach the same old rhetoric.
Perfect...get mad and throw a fit because I have a differing opinion...so typical.

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

Now I understand where you are coming from on the welfare issue. I don't mind paying some taxes to help with welfare, and it's not a very significant portion of the budget overall (excluding Social Security and Medicare which are huge, of course), but it bothers me greatly that some of this money (many would say "most", I suppose) contributes to undermining self-sufficiency and a strong work ethic. It's not the money that bothers me, but the fact that when this happens, it harms the recipients more than it helps them. A child growing up observing parents without good work habits has a tough challenge to break out of that nasty cycle.
Exactly...very well said, Jackie. I also feel that expanding the government to provide healthcare is going exacerbate the very problem you describe here.

Jackie...you're a very smart, intelligent man....for the life of me, I don't understand how you can believe Obama won't raise your taxes and provide sloppy at best services. You KNOW he's handing out "elect me" BS.........we've seen this before in our lifetimes:)...(HillaryCare???)

Steve

[rums_mom]

You are preaching to the choir, RockNk. I have always been very involved in my children's education. I was their first *teacher* and continue to be there for them. I was the Volunteer Coordinator for my son's school PTO for 4 years, 2 years as co-chair and 2 as chairperson. I continued to volunteer at schools even though my children had moved on.

I also considered homeschooling, and would have done it in a heartbeat. I am a product of Catholic Private school, 1st through 12th.;) I have found I was given a good elementary education and a great secondary education at a HS that specialized in college prep. I do find that many private schools do not have the same resources as public. In elementary school, we had no science lab or adequate PE classes or facilities.

My son went to a magnet H.S. specializing in Science and Math, with a curriculum designed by NASA and VA Tech. It was a much smaller school than his first HS that he attended as a freshman, after graduating, he said he would have been better off at the larger HS because he would have had a better selection of classes he needed for college admission due to the limited amount of classes offered at the magnet h.s.

Most of the private schools around here are church related. I believe children should get their spiritual training at home and not in the schools, so I never thought those private schools were good choices for my family.

[HoustonFarrier]

Publik schools are a giant money pit as far as I'm concerned

But they did use to be so good.....but they have 'evolved' into being a "parent replacement" entity......

Steve

[rums_mom]

So Steve, where is the money going to come from for McCain's health care plan? McCain stated a lot of plans during the debates but did not say where the money is going to come from.......you seem like an intelligent guy and I find it hard to believe that you think McCain is not going to raise taxes to pay for his programs.

[Tatesgram]

I disagree with this as strongly as possible, rocknK. The only thing that has ever proven to significantly improve the human condition is knowledge/education. Or one could make a strong argument to that effect anyway. We all benefit greatly from providing education to our citizens.

I agree with you Jackie, but schools have changed a lot since we (I) was there. Teachers are not allowed or are afraid to discipline students. Shoot, they don't want parents to dicipline their kids either. The fundamentals are getting lost in all the special programs that are being introduced. If Joey Jr. can't learn it must be the teachers fault, couldn't possibly be that he was up all night playing video games or worse, out on the streets. Oh, too many kids aren't passing the test, well, let's change the test. Dumb it down to make it easier. Where's the sarcasm smiley?

I worked with a girl that's son was constantly in trouble, the teacher was against him, the principle was against him, the bus driver was against him. They all had it out for him...according to his mother. She could never answer the question, why are they against him? Turns out he was on drugs, breaking into peoples homes and stealing to
support his habit. He was disruptive and a discipline problem. She always took his side without trying to find out the problems.

Anyone that wants to improve their circumstance in this country, through hard work and education can. But it should not be handed to them, not because of race, gender or where they live. HF is right, too many people expect the government to just take care of them, like it's some right to sit at home and collect a check.

[rocknK]

I'm also a "victim" of 12 yrs of Catlik education. I say that tounge in cheek. I feel I received a very good education (except for computers) cause we didn't have them back then. I believe the spiritual side was excellent. It is a parents obligation to provide a child with a religous foundation & the schools that I attended really helped to add more bricks, mortar, & steel (if you get my drift) to the foundation my parents had already laid.:cowboy:

[rums_mom]

Are you mental???? Did you not read this, when I wrote.....

Education is a different subject than health care. Education is generally a short term item, and there are already good services in place for education...so I don't see that as a problem. In fact, I would say that NOT ENOUGH people use it.


They were paid for using employer provided insurance...AND me paying the deductables. ALL OF THEM. And you have NEVER heard me griping about it. I don't NEED the government to take care of me...I have far too much pride. While the system may not be perfect....it's a lot better than any other country in the world...and I've been to about 20 other countries over the years.



I EARNED everything I have. I have been working 2 jobs since I was 20 years old. I'm almost 50 now, and STILL working 2 jobs. I am not a burden to society...unlike others. I have no problem with giving an occasional helping hand......but when the "helping hand" lasts a lifetime, I have serious reservations about that.


Perfect...get mad and throw a fit because I have a differing opinion...so typical.

Steve


Well Steve I feel the same way, why you think I am for giving someone a lifetime of a helping hand is beyond me. You have consistently categorized me as a bleeding heart liberal but I am nothing of the sort.

I am not pitching a fit or mad. Don't even know where you got that idea. I have and will continue to respect anyone's opinion. If you want clarification on anything I post, may I suggest you take a less antagonistic approach? Or do some research yourself?Thanks........

[Tatesgram]

But they did use to be so good.....but they have 'evolved' into being a "parent replacement" entity......

Steve

You said it all right here. :)

[HoustonFarrier]

So Steve, where is the money going to come from for McCain's health care plan? McCain stated a lot of plans during the debates but did not say where the money is going to come from.......you seem like an intelligent guy and I find it hard to believe that you think McCain is not going to raise taxes to pay for his programs.

I'm not worried about McCain, because if he gets elected, we will still have a Dem majority congress/senate, so he will get nothing done......"no harm..no foul", so to speak;).

I don't think McCain is "better" per se....I think he is "safer". He is less likely to enlarge government social services, and less likely to raise taxes. He will probably not accomplish much...but I trust him more than Obama, and for me, trust is EVERYTHING. Mostly that trust comes from the fact that he and I are from military backgrounds...I know what he was taught, I know how he thinks, and I have the utmost respect for him given what he went through in Vietnam. John McCain did not ask his country to do for him..he asked what he could do for his country....and he did. As my (foster) mother always told me(and I repeated a thousand times to my children) ..."actions speak louder than words...".

I really wonder if he's got the mental capacity to finsh a term. We know now, that Reagan had Alzheimers very late in his 2nd term....I worry about that with McCain. But, Palin, if she should have to step in, will, as with McCain, accomplish little, since we will still have a Dem majority until at least the next election:)

Steve

[rocknK]

I believe the term "nanny state" applies as well. We got folks wanting the state to raise their kids. Just look how the DMV works near you. Thats where education is heading.

[rums_mom]

And FTR, considering if I am "mental" or not? What exactly were you implying there?

According to The American Heritage Dictionary:
1) mental: adj. of or relating ot the mind; intellectual.
or
2) mental: adj. Of, relating to, or affected by mental disorder.
or
3) mental: adj. Of or relating to telepathy or mind reading.

I would say Yes to #1, No to #2 and Yes to #3. Although I am perimenopausal so #2 can be up for grabs........


That I took your words out of context so therefore I am "mental"? :whack:

Whether I am mental or not is purely subjective..........:p:crazy::hysterical:

[HoustonFarrier]

Actually.....when I wrote it, I heard Mike Myers in 'Waynes World' :) LOL

Steve

[mtnmollie]

Government health care looks like this:

forest service land behind this sign...

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=50&pictureid=366

[mtnmollie]

Mzke no mistake- the government will take care of your health the same way they cared for the land. These clearcuts done before 1988- not much regrowth yet.

How this land was clearcut for "Forest Health" is documented in Bud Moore' book- the Lochsa Story. (availabe on Amazon.)

They were never going to clearcut the upper Lochsa- this is the upper Lochsa.

I would rather die from illness than go for government health care.
I worked for the post office. I know how government works.

I have government health care. When hubby Gene got in the military- he was promised health care for life. My ID card will get me in any military hospital near Washinton DC.
But not in Spokane Washington (where Gene did Air- Guard) nor Mt Home Southern Idaho. We are too far from our nearest military base to count.

After being kicked out of the system- we choose to pay for Tri- Care for Life.

But I do love the USA.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=50&pictureid=363

[mtnmollie]

What they did not clearcut they let burn, in 2003. This ridge is in the Lolo Landmark boundary- currently managed for no fire on paper. I have that documented. I can scan it and send it to you if you want. :cowboy:

[JackieB]

Jackie...you're a very smart, intelligent man....for the life of me, I don't understand how you can believe Obama won't raise your taxes and provide sloppy at best services.

Steve

That made me break into a huge smile. :) The reason is because I know your feeling so well. You're sitting there at your computer thinking "This guy's pretty smart. I've debated issues with him and read so many of his posts. Why can't he see something that is so plainly obvious. Just perplexing as heck."

I'm not saying this about you, I just know that feeling really well. :)

[mtnmollie]

"This guy's pretty smart. I've debated issues with him and read so many of his posts. Why can't he see something that is so plainly obvious. Just perplexing as heck."

I'm not saying this about you, I just know that feeling really well"-

I think both sides feel that way.

[palomino]

I cant get over that some people are saying that McCain is racist now. Because he called Obama 'that one' while talking.
People need to get a life.
I watched the debate, have followed this election closer than any election before. Im very worried about the sad state of affairs the country is in right now, and I DO NOT think the Dems are going to help ANYONE in my position (middle class, children, BROKE, etc) get out of this hole. Im worried for my childrens future, and for the first time in my life I am SCARED of things to come.
I worry for my kids, what the heck are we leaving them?
I wish we could bring Reagan back to life.

[mtnmollie]

Good post palo- and welcome to our campfire. :cowboy:

[palomino]

Just warmin my hands up LOL!