How much whoa with a hackamore?

[Sparrk]

Okay dang it, I need help.

I have a mare who has bolted through a hackamore, and almost every bit there is. When we gymkhanaed I needed a bit with a lot of whoa to have control of her ( I also needed it when galloping in an open field). Yes she was previously abused, and she is also hot.

Now I have a new mare. 9 y/o, well broke trail horse I am told, but my neighbour ( who is a trainer) and I am questioning that. :doh:

She hates the snaffle. Hates rollers. Hates copper. I have to fight with her for 10 minutes trying to get a bit in her mouth. Otherwise, she is the quietest, gentlest, loving horse I have ever met.

I've tried a bosal, and she runs through that....totally ignores it.

So now I have an old hackamore on her. So far, so good. But she still has a tendency at times to stick her nose in the air and say "nope, not that doing that, I'm not gonna turn left". I fight with her, and we do it. *sigh* she has been out to pasture for almost 2 years......

So far, I feel the hackamore has been the most effective with her. She seems to like it alot more, but I feel like I don't have enough control. I don't know if it's because my previous mare took off me with it on, or what?

In your opinion, do you feel hacks, have a good amount of "whoa" in them? I really want to take her out of the boring ring, and head out on a trail, but I have no one to go with me, and feel alittle insecure with her int he hack.

Any input?

[WashingtonBay]

Hackamores can be quite severe, actually. I ride mine in hacks on trail and think they have quite a bit of woah. In fact, used incorrectly, they can break a horse's jaw.

But what you've learned through your previous experience with hacks is, no bit or device will make your horse a trained horse. Only good training does that.... time spent teaching the horse to give and respond to your aids softly and willingly. I'd also suggest that you don't give a potential runaway horse so much room to fail. If you have a horse with a history of running away, you don't gallop that horse through wide open fields. Set them up for success, set yourself up for success, by working them slowly and deliberately. Freedom and speed are earned when trust is earned through obedience and responsiveness.

When push comes to shove, the horse will always win a contest of strength. Don't make it about pain and strength. Pain from a harsh bit doesn't necessarily mean woah to the horse, it may just be another reason to run. It's only through the horse learning how to avoid that pressure from you, through obedience and release, that they learn that pressure means woah. Until then, it's fight or flight.

[alittleoffkey]

Ditto WB. Your horses need to know what "whoa" means. Legacy can be running towards me in the pasture and I can say "Whoa" and he'll stop dead in his tracks - they learn that before I EVER get on their backs.

Take a step back and ask her to whoa from a stop with a slight change in seat, followed by a more obvious one, then a slight change in the reins then a more obvious one. Increase your cues until you find one that works and try to teach her to respond to the very first one. ;)

[JackieB]

WB really gave outstanding advice. And do keep in mind that a hackamore can be very severe. A rider pulled back on one extremely hard with Buster (before he was my horse), and Buster flipped right over backwards. Thankfully neither Buster nor the rider were hurt.

[Cat]

I agree - training, training, and more training.

Toby used to bolt through things. I focused on training him to stop with my seat and get him overall very light. Now riding is wonderful with him. It took a lot of time, but well worth it. The way I taught stopping with the seat is first I would "sit on my pockets" and bring my legs forward a bit - that is my cue to stop. Due whatever your sit cue will be. Then I would say "whoa". Then I would do a one-rein stop. Always start with the softest cue first and then build up the strength of the cue until the horse listens. This is how you make them soft. They will eventually start to "get it" and stop with the first soft cue as long as you are consistant and fair.

Practice makes perfect.

[WashingtonBay]

She hates the snaffle. Hates rollers. Hates copper. I have to fight with her for 10 minutes trying to get a bit in her mouth. Otherwise, she is the quietest, gentlest, loving horse I have ever met.This is a technique issue on your part, and a test of forgiveness on hers. Horses who fight bridling have usually been bridled roughly. Don't clang her teeth with the bit, going in or coming out. There is a technique for asking them to open, and asking them to accept the bridle, without banging them. It hurts when you bang their teeth, and it sends chills through them like banging your funny bone does. Some horses are more tolerant than others, but I don't blame the intolerant ones. I wouldn't like that either.

For working on it, wrap a bit in vet wrap, and practice going in and coming out without touching her teeth. She's not going to trust you until you've perfected this and are working together, and the vet wrap will help ease any bobbles.

[ImaBronsonBear]

As everyone has said before me, it doesn't matter what you put on your horse's face, the only thing that matters is the training they have. If you horse has been trained to stop when you sit down and say whoa, then they're most likely gonna stop whether they're in a halter, neck rope, or spade bit. But if they haven't been trained to stop, no matter how hard you yank, they're still going through it.

Just my two cents, go back to square one in the round pen with a simple snaffle, or side pull. I would probably not use a hackamore for this exercise because they don't usually have a lot of lateral give. From a walk, Sit back, say Whoa (nice and loud!) and pull back lightly on the reins. If she doesn't stop, pull her head around and hold it until she stops. Release and pat. Do it again. And again. And again. Do it until she will stop off your seat and voice from a gallop. By then, you know you've got a whoa!:)

[wundahoss]

Added to WB's & other's great advice, I would ensure her teeth, her back, her saddle, her feet, etc are all in good order & not causing any discomfort first. Aside from training, horses who bolt & run through pressure often do so from pain & associated frustration.

[trainer101]

I would say go back to basics on the ground. Get a good rope halter and get her to yeilding all body parts willingly and softly, but most of all how to give both lateraly and verticaly. An old gentleman whom I have always respected once told me that in order to educate your hoses mouth, we need to educate his nose first. If your horse has the basic consept of giving in the halter then the transition to the bit is usually less of a complication.

I ride all my colts in either the halter or hacks(bosals 1/2inch) for their first several rides or even for the first 30 days. I have never seen a horse get seriously injured from using a traditional hack or bosal, but then again if they don't know to give to that halter they darn sure wont give to that hack. As far as getting a whoa, if they don't know it on the ground, they won't know it undersaddle. However teaching the horse how to bend to a stop will greatly improve your horses whoa. Ask her to move forward, start at a walk, and genlty tip her nose in toward your boot. Hold it there till her feet stop moving and you feel the rein get light. It might take a little while for that to sink in with her so she might circle for a while. Thats ok, most do the first time. Each time you bend her to a stop say the word "Whoa" nice and clearly so she can hear you. Do this each time you stop her. Keep asking her to move out then bend her to a stop. Once she has it at a walk, try a trot and keep it real simple for her. Let her take a few steps then stop. If you do this for 30 days you will be amazed at how light your horse will become and how quickly she will stop with just the word Whoa.

you might also get her teeth checked since she has had some time out in the pasture. Have your vet check for hooks and jagged edges that might be causing her to reject a bit. Hope this helps. I threw in a couple of pics of my horse, one in his halter and the other in his hack. You'll notice that I have a fiador on the hack to keep it from bumping him in the chin. As a rule of thumb if the hack is 1/2 inch and over you need to use one, if it is under 1/2 inch then you really don't.

[WashingtonBay]

I ride all my colts in either the halter or hacks(bosals 1/2inch) for their first several rides or even for the first 30 days. I have never seen a horse get seriously injured from using a traditional hack or bosal, but then again if they don't know to give to that halter they darn sure wont give to that hack.

Just for clarity on what I was speaking of above when I said they could break a jaw, I was speaking of Mechanical hacks. Just for clarity in the conversation for the OP, are you speaking of a mechanical or a bosal? We should probably be clear.

Here are the type of mechanical hacks we use on trail. They can be severe if adjusted tightly and need to be handled with a careful rein.

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=1&pictureid=1

[Sparrk]

Thank you everybody for replying and the advice.

It was my mistake for not providing background info.

I have 3 horses. One slips her head into the bridle and opens her mouth for the bit, no problem, the other one who I'm just starting, stands still and doesn't budge, I use my finger and slip the bit in, and now this new horse, who's 9 y/o, likes to spin around and fuss. I know not to bang teeth, and be rough etc., I make her settle, and she will eventually grab for the bit (yikes, I gotta watch my fingers) and I get the bit in her mouth no problem, but it's that initial fight, that I'd like to get past. I think she might have had a bad experience in the past, I just wish she would settle down.

I have had a saddle check, vet check as well as her teeth checked, no problems with either of them.


She is excellent on the lunge line. Walks no problem and stops as soon as I say "whoa". Trots from a standstill and stops dead from a trot..........99.9% of the time - I'll admit it may take a step or 2. She changes direction on command, etc..

In the saddle, the only thing she does really well is stop. :) When I stop, first I lean back, then verbal command "whoa", then a pull on the reins. I usually don't make it to step 3 with her.

Everything else under saddle needs improvement. I do lateral flexion, she's good with that, she listens to leg cues moreso then rein, but I still have to steer her even when I'm trying to walk her straight on the rail. She weaves worse that a drunk. :doh:

However, occasionally she'll get in a mood and not want to turn, so I apply more leg and rein pressure and she'll stick her head up and fight the bit. Same for slowing down. I should mention that she is an Arab and has a natural high head carriage, but does carry it relatively low.

Oh, might I add, I got one spook out of her (she's not a spooky horse), and even though she bolted forward :doh: I managed to get her stopped within a short distance - I'm not afraid of that.

The reason for my question was, I know she needs alot more time under saddle, but I myself hate ring work! I go on weekly trailrides with friends but always take my old trail horse. I want to take my new horse, but wonder if a problem arises, (spook, fight with another horse, general amnesia :( ) with the hack be enough control?

Oh one more thing, I do know better than to reef on the reins, I use as little pressure as possible, and gradually apply as necessary.

[WashingtonBay]

If she's responsive in the ring with it, you have a shot at it being a good choice on trail also. I like them on trail.

I guess the first time, I would go with a couple trusted friends who will be safe companions with a horse who is an unknown entity, on a relatively easy trail, and see how she does.

A hackamore like mine above is plenty severe, in fact, you need to be very careful with it.

[Gret<3sBub]

i agree with the rest about more training and practice before you put her in a situation where she is prone to act up

also have you had her teeth checked recently by an equine dentist this could be an explanation for her distaste for the bit, if not this also try rubbing the bit with an apple or a bit wrap and put it in her mouth very gently and patiently not fighting her and when she give immediately release the pressure on her and remove the bit gently(if she doesn't like a bit in her mouth at all) or if she can tolerate a bit just turn and let her think for a minute and "digest"-licking/chewing is a good indication of this- and after that reward her lots for putting the bit in nicely

[medicine hat]

I use a mechanical hackamore, and went through some issues of bucking~while~galloping, (smart horse learned 1 move that would throw me off, long story:mad:) and for the short term I found pulling on 1 rein was very effective at getting him to slow/stop, then following that with trotting/cantering under control on some circles until he would relax & soften. then I went back to slower work & working on his response to softer cues for awhile, like the others have advised, and that has helped us for the long term.
I use a JIm Warner hackamore, with shanks that swivel, maybe the type of hackamore makes a difference??? I also learned that they need their teeth checked even if I am using a hackamore, because the hackamore can rub their cheek onto the sharp hooks/points of their teeth. how recently were her teeth checked? maybe they need looked at again. the only time my horse tossed his head to fight me was when his teeth needed floated.
good luck~

[Sparrk]

Yes, she needs more training, I agree. I just would love to move to lets say, the field behind my house instead of the small ring beside my house. :innocent:

Her teeth were checked this summer, maybe 4 months ago? I had the vet out to do sheath, and teeth cleaning, and some things, but none of the horses needed their teeth done - or anytime soon she said. I also asked about back pain, so the vet examined her and found her to be in perfect health.

I dunno, wet saddle blanket may be the remedy?

[Palogal]

I'm one of those "snaffle or bust" kind of people. I have a filly that's kind of "bit shy" like your girl. I'm just working it. I put the bridle on patiently and she's getting better. I've had her mouth checked and she's just a really sensitive horse which is cool with me, better than hard mouthed IMO. I have a mechanical hack that I've used to give my dressage horse a break from the bit once in a while and a bosal I use for initial breaking with the babies before they have their wolf teeth removed but other than that I use a french link snaffle and graduate to a D-ring snaffle.

I wouldn't give up on a bit, I would just patiently work with it until she' is somewhat desensitized to it, enough that you can ride her with it. I would bridle her every day and just lead her around if needed and do some long-lining with it. She'll get used to it. I assume of course that it's not a dental problem.