Feeding?

[Petra]

I know my question is going to sound pretty dumb to all of you.
I never had to feed a horse so I really have no clue.
How much hay and grain should a horse eat?
No worries, I'm not starving my horses. I give them as much hay as they want; they never have the chance to finish what they have. The horses are let out in the pasture through the day and they have a big round bale of good quality hay available to them.
I also gave them mineral blocks.
Vet told me to feed Sweet Feed so that's what I'm giving them in the evenings. He didn't tell me exactly how much only said I need to start slow and gradually increase the amount. I noticed there are different % on the bags. I bought a bag with the lowest percentage and after that was gone I got the higher one.
As he advised I'm increasing the amount but where do I stop? I don't want to give them too much either.
Do I need to mix the Sweet Feed with anything else? I've seen different kinds of feeds in the store, but didn't want to get anything before asking someone first.
I have also seen all kinds of supplements. I got one for the hooves. Not sure if I need anything else.
Thanks for the patience with me. :)

[HoustonFarrier]

Personally, I would drop the sweet feed for a more balanced whole feed. Horses don't need any sugar, and an excess of sugar can cause a host of deleterious symptoms in your horse. I use Purina Strategy, but there are also other brands out in the market that work well too.

Steve

[WashingtonBay]

I'd look at the feeding amount recommendations on the bag, and I'd ask your vet directly what amounts he had in mind.

I'll just say that you should be thinking small amounts, not large ones. I can't imagine any of yours should be getting more than say a pound per feeding of sweet feed. They're young, have plenty of access to other forage which should be most of the diet, and the grain should be considered a supplement not a staple.

You'll get a lot of conflicting answers on the grain/sweet feed and whether it should be fed at all or you should be feeding something else. Feed is like anything else, lots of experience here but not all of it agrees. Listen to who you think makes sense, try it, and if you don't like the result, know that there are other options out there.

[HeartofSteel]

I agree about dropping the sweet feed. It has way to much sugar and starches. That can lead to all sorts of problems down the road. Do you know why the vet told you sweet feed?

[FrogInABlender]

I also agree with dropping the sweet feed. Since your horses are just pasture ornaments at this point, they don't need the extra calories OR the sugar. I think that sometimes excess sugar in a horse's diet can cause similar behavior problems as it does in young childern, namely excess energy that interferes with their concentration.

If you can't get them to gain weight on just hay, then I'd consider just plain crimped oats. And I'd start with maybe a cup full each and see how that goes for a few weeks, then re-evaluate. Mine tend to get too fat on any amount of grain so I feed them about a half pound each per day of a pelleted hay balancer.

[Petra]

Thanks for the responses.
I didn’t ask the vet why he is recommending the Sweet Feed. I had no reason to question him; he knows horses and I don't so I do as I'm told. I just got curious seeing all the different feeds in the store and than reading over here that sugar is not very good.
Vet said that there is not enough nutrition in the grass in the winter, even if it's green and hay is not enough. Said there is a molasses in sweet feed and it will give them the extra energy they will need when it gets cold.
Of course I don't want them to have problems; I will not buy the sweet feed any more.
The two new horses are very skinny, especially Bullet. They have pretty thick coats so it doesn't show as bad as it really is; I can feel every bone on them. I'm not sure if the hay and oats will be enough for them. Should I get some corn oil? I read it in another thread that it helps them to put on weight.

[WashingtonBay]

It's good to have a balanced view on this, sweet feed has been fed to horses for YEARS, my own included for a long time. It's not going to kill them.

It's just that there are many better feeds out there now and while not all horses are sensitive to sugar, recent studies have shown that too much sugar and non-structural carbs is not good for horses, and can lead to metabolic disorders that are not unlike diabetes.

So all in balance.

Before trying to add oils or other things that aren't balanced, I'd look for a more balanced feed (they will all have some molasses in them) intended for young and growing horses that has all the ingredients in it they need, in the right proportions already.... ie. more Protein and fat, but less sugar and NSC, than the sweet feed.

The problem is they don't publish the NSC numbers. It's the big mystery pin the tail on the donkey game when choosing feed.

I personally feed a ration balancer made by purina called Enrich. They make two different formulas to be fed with either grass hay or alfalfa, it's concentrated so you don't feed very much (a pound per feeding) and it's got everything they need to supplement a hay diet. But my horses are adults. Others may know if there's a better choice out there to feed growing horses.

[Petra]

WB thanks.
I'll go and see what kinds of feed they have here in a hardware store. I guess it will be the easiest if I list what choices I have. I am willing to listen to what ever advice I'm given here. I don't want to mess them up. I'd just like them to be healthy. I haven't seen such skinny horses before, that's why I'm worried.

[WashingtonBay]

Good plan. List all the feeds, and I'm sure you'll get answers that say all of them are the one you want. :D

I'm glad it won't make you nuts to wade through conflicting answers, if horse people agree on one thing, it's that they have their own opinion on everything.

They may be thin, but none look critically emergency thin. There can be as many problems from trying to put weight on them too quickly as not quickly enough, and when they're growing, they may be ribby no matter what you do. And that's not a bad thing, a little thin is actually better in a lot of ways than even a little too fat.

[FrogInABlender]

...I personally feed a ration balancer made by purina called Enrich. They make two different formulas to be fed with either grass hay or alfalfa, it's concentrated so you don't feed very much (a pound per feeding) and it's got everything they need to supplement a hay diet. But my horses are adults. Others may know if there's a better choice out there to feed growing horses.

The Enrich is what I use too. I was using the Enrich 32, and just a half pound of that per day, which is only half of the recommended amount, but they were all getting too fat on it, so I switched to the Enrich 12. In comparing their Guaranteed Analyses, there's not much difference between the two, other than the protein and fat percentages and a little potassium, and since I don't have any real young ones anymore I figured that would be ok. They're not losing any weight on the Enrich 12, but they're not gaining either, so that's a good thing I guess.

If I were feeding yearlings I'd go with the 32% protein and higher fat content of the Enrich 32.

[WashingtonBay]

I'm also feeding the Enrich 12, but my hay is rich for grass hay and I also thought the easy keepers like Cyn and the Pony would just get fat on even the minimum amounts of the 32.

But her three growing kids.... The Enrich 32 and unlimited grass hay might be just the ticket.

[Petra]

I have two different kinds of hay - one is Bermuda grass and the other Alfa Alfa. (I know about the blister beetle. This one wasn't in bloom yet and I search through anyways. So far it has been clean.)
I have to go home now. I'll be back tomorrow.
Thanks again!

[WashingtonBay]

OK - the proportion of alfalfa you're feeding makes a difference on whether you want a higher or lower protein supplement - the key is the overall balance of the diet.

So maybe tomorrow we'll talk more details and amounts on the hay.

[Peggy Sue]

just ask your vet how much EQUINE NUTRITION he took in college..

vets actually know VERY VERY little EQUINE Nutrition unless your vet took the extra classes which MOST DON'T then he/she got one semester of GENERAL Nutrition

Low grain or no grain diet has been PROVEN to be better overall for your horse


free choice forage and a GOOD vitamin/mineral suppelment

[HoustonFarrier]

Low grain or no grain diet has been PROVEN to be better overall for your horse

You know, my 2 new geldings I got this year came from Colorado, and their owner said he never fed them any grain, they were out on LUSH pasture and doing well. They were in good shape, and lean when they came to Texas. They only get about 3 lbs of grain a day here, and get a mix of alfalfa and coastal and what little grazing is left.

Steve

[WashingtonBay]

Well, Peggy, you should be more clear, this is a new horse owner who is probably not familiar with the finer points of the distinction between a ration balancer pellet that contains beet pulp and rice and other supplemental nutrition and 'grain'. You feed a concentrated ration balancer besides hay that has a lot of nutrition in it. It's not just a vitamin.

To many, all these supplements are "grain".... and I myself talk that way. If you're going to say 'don't feed any grain' to someone with young horses who need to gain weight, I think you should be a little more clear.

All these pellets contain various ingredients.... grains, rice bran beet pulp, alfalfa, oils, etc. Some more of some things than others, the formulas vary quite a bit. The important thing is to read the labels, see if it seems to be formulated for your situation, and then feed according to the amounts the formula is intended to be fed at.

[Peggy Sue]

WB you are still confused on the RB's they are a vitamin/mineral supplement on steriods .. they dont' cantain beet pulp or rice bran ... they are normally soy or alfalfa based with added NUTRITION... and they are classified as suppelements NOT FEED...


But I will expand since I just skimmed the OP

when I say NO GRAINS I mean no corn, oats or barley...

look for a feed based off of beet pulp, or alfalfa meal that DOES NOT Contain any true grains...

[gaited07]

Personally, I would drop the sweet feed for a more balanced whole feed. Horses don't need any sugar, and an excess of sugar can cause a host of deleterious symptoms in your horse. I use Purina Strategy, but there are also other brands out in the market that work well too.

Steve


As everyone else, I agree to drop the sweet feed and go with a balanced whole feed.
I use Safe and Sound by IFA which does the trick for me. Most farm stores have brochures on different grain products in their store.

I'm surprised your vet would recommend a sweet feed without giving more details. Too much sugars are not good for horses and if you don't know how to administer it could be disastrous.
I'm glad you asked questions before the disaster happened.

[WashingtonBay]

Whatever Peggy. Personally, I don't think there is one bag of feed in her feed store that is going to kill her horses if she feeds it in the right amounts.

What she's trying to learn is what the right amounts are. She has two yearlings that are thin and a three year old. None in any hard work at the moment, but growing. She wants to know how much to feed them.

Ask a simple question, get a hundred conflicting answers. How is this helping?

I try to stay away from naming any particular feed because everyone else is doing that too, so it's just a bunch of people rattling off feed names. Feed this! No feed this!

There's a lot of good feeds out there, they're all just slightly different in their formulations, from mixes of whole grains, with or without molasses, to ration balancers that are designed to be fed in small quantities, to performance feeds that add a lot of calories and energy you may not want, to complete and senior feeds that have all the hay and grains added into it and mashed into an easy to digest pellet that can be fed in large quantities without hay. So it's important to read the bags, as well as the feeding amounts recommended on the bag, and see if it fits your situation. I would recommend the grass hay be nearly always available, add in the alfalfa in a more metered way, and choose a 'grain' supplement that is designed to go with a diet like that, a ration balancer would be good, but so would a lot of the other choices, if you feed it as it's intended.

Clear as mud? :)

[Peggy Sue]

the two yearlings most likely need nutrition NOT sugars and starches that will be in a grain based feed...

FORAGE is the answer with good nutrition backing it ...

[JackieB]

Great questions, Petra. Not dumb in the least. As you can see, you are getting at least some conflicting answers from this group as well. However, feeding is extremely important, so you are wise to ask for advice.

I'm sure your vet wasn't "wrong" in his advice, but he's busy and maybe just made a statement or two about the feeding and was on his way. And you, understandably enough (I'd have done exactly the same thing) are just following his instructions. But you need more information and you came to the right group. Here's what I recommend.

-Definitely take it easy on the sweet feed. I wouldn't personally give more than a scoop of that stuff a day until I was sure that I had a whole program put together.

-Can you take quality pictures of the types of hay you are feeding and post those here for us to see? Some of the experienced folks on the forum might have some thoughts after seeing it. If you do, you want to be able to see the blades of grass and alfalfa clearly, like holding a big handful of it up.

-Could you list out exactly what you are feeding, how many times a day, and so on? That would be helpful to some here.

-Are you friends with some experienced horse people in your area? People with very healthy horses that always look great? They can be extremely helpful because they know your area, the quality of the hay, and so on. Also, your local feed mill is an excellent place to ask these questions.

Good luck. I'm sure you'll get this all figured out beautifully, it just takes awhile, and you want to make sure that you are feeding your horses will in the meantime.

[Petra]

Thank you everyone! Lol, I'm trying to make sense out of all the answers.

JackieB, yes I could tell my vet was busy. He is an old guy; very nice has been a vet for many, many years. If sweet feed was all there was years ago, I can understand he keeps suggesting it.
No, I'm not friends with anyone, we just moved in October.
I'm know few people that keep horses, but after listening to some comments they made about the way they train/deal with their animals I'm not really interested in their advice.
My mother in law used to keep horses. Said she even broke her own horse. Once she mentioned she had to "whack him with a 2 by 4" to get him behave I never talk "horses" with her again. Besides she acts like she knows everything and I'm stupid. She disagrees with everything I say.
The farrier that came over said he trains horses, he also said that he puts them under saddle at 19 months and I should start getting saddle on my 15 year old Crystal to get her ready. The guy I got Sydney from, has a Jack and another horse, but he also said she hasn't been wormed, had her hoofs trimmed or seen a vet since she has been there because she is healthy. I'm scared to be getting advice from them. There are things that are very obviously against my believes; since I don't have any experience I may not be able to know what to extract from their advice. I'd prefer not to even go there and spare myself disagreements.

Well, I guess listing out what is available to me will make a little advance in this discussion. As I have no experience it is hard to figure out whom to listen to lol. Maybe I could get some help putting the right feed together for them now that I know what I have available.
First of all, before I'll list the feeds. I feed mainly Bermuda grass hay. The Alfa Alfa is only occasional. I got that before I had the Bermuda hay, just to keep me going for few days. So I have maybe two more square bails of that left. I'm scared to be buying more Alfa Alfa because of the blister bugs.
The hay I bought from someone who boards horses. I have never been to their farm (It's little ways from where I live.) They feed that to their horses and had extra.
I'll try to take some pictures though.
They really didn't have a very good selection of horse feed in the store. 3 kinds of Sweet Feed, Oat Replacer (light colored granules), Rolled Oats, Life Design - different kinds (for different stages; seniors, lactating mares and foals, high performance...)
SafeChoice - one for all life stages, EnergX - Enriched Formula Horse Food, EMPOWER - Advanced Performance Formula.
That's it no other choices.

[WashingtonBay]

Well, I bet you we can get you something of a consensus on one of the SafeChoice or Life Design formulas. :) I've at least heard of those, and know people who feed them. I bet if you googled them you'd find their manufacturers page with descriptions of what they are intended for. I'll wait a bit and see if someone who has direct experience with them will chime in.

[FrogInABlender]

From what I can tell, all the feeds she's listed are Neutrena feeds, so that's probably all her feed store carries. I found a Neutrena website that lists all their horse feeds and also has a "Help me Decide" tab that looks like it might be helpful...

http://www.nutrenaworld.com/Screens/ProductDetails_Equine.aspx?ProductID=170

Click on the link and see that y'all think...

[FrogInABlender]

Looks like the Life Design Youth or the SafeChoice are the best bets for the yearlings if you want to stay away from a sweet feed. And the Life Design Prime or SafeChoice for the older mare. So if you don't want to have to buy two different feeds then the SafeChoice is the one to go with, based on your limited choices.

You could supplement the younger ones with alfalfa cubes to get their protein level up higher. That way you wouldn't have to worry about blister beetles, because as far as I know, the processing that the cubes go through renders harmless any blister beetle parts that might be in the mix.

[WashingtonBay]

I think I'd go with the SafeChoice if she only wants to buy one kind. I know I like to do it that way.

If the yearlings really NEED more of something, perhaps there is a good youth supplement that could be added. I don't know.

[Equine_Woman]

I feed Safechoice 14% to my seniors and my young un and it's done wonders for their coats. I had to add extra calories this year for some of my seniors but they are EXTREMLY hard keepers. So I recommend Safechoice. Good luck with everyting!! There are a lot of really smart people around here with good advice!!! And don't get discouraged, everyone has to start somewhere!! There are a lot of people in the world that own horses and never even ask the question about what to feed them and have no idea!! You've just passed them up with flying colors! I'm sure you'll do great with yours!

[Peggy Sue]

if you pm me your zip code we might be able to find you a couple other dealers in your area

[Petra]

Thanks again everyone. I'm thinking I may go with the SmartChoice. It sounds pretty good. I cannot go and read up online. As I mentioned earlier my Internet access is very limited in my work place and I have no Internet at home. But I took some booklets with me and the SmartChoice sounded better than the other feeds.

[WashingtonBay]

I think you mean the SafeChoice :)

Either way... if you can swing it, it's best to get the new feed before you run out of the old one, and make changes in the quantity slwoly, a little bit each night. (IF you're increasing!) Mix them half and half through the first bag.

[Buckpoco]

Sweet feed is not good.