I don't know what to do. [Archive] - Baywind Farm Horse Forum

Dakota Sunrise

10-09-2008, 09:31 PM

It's just been one of those days when nothing goes right. It started out bad, steadily got worse, and ended with me screwing up big time and doing something I really regret.
I'm really stressed out right now.

The big problem is Beauty. The problem being that I don't know if there is a problem. You guys know about all the issues we've had, the good and bad times, and you probably all know about the stone bruise, the easy boots, the question of stiffness, etc.
Beauty is a handful of a horse. I love her and I'm trying to do what is best for her, but at the moment I don't know what that is.
We had a really rough ride today. She was nervous the second I got on (the neighbor's horses were not helping the situation) and it just got worse and worse. She was so hyper, spazzed the whole time. Wouldn't walk, pranced the whole time, kept taking off. It was like she forget everything I ever taught her. Things that she was doing perfectly for our last few rides were suddenly incredibily difficult. She bucked a few times and I had to keep her reined in the whole time because the second she got her head she took off.
Sometimes I wonder if I'm a good enough rider for her because she can make me feel so clueless. I'm not giving up on her, not at all. She's made lots of progress and we've just hit another rough patch I'm sure. But the big question is whether it's a behavior or pain issue.
A few people have said that she seems stiff. I've compared her gait now to videos of her from months and months ago and she's the same in each one, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything, I know. I have had her teeth floated (they didn't really need done tho), had you guys check her saddle fit, switched bits, and a few other things. Other then some bad behavior undersadde (which really isn't new, she has her good and bad days) she is acting totally normal. She moves energetically and willingly, rolls and runs in the pasture, is uptodate on farrier and worming, gets lots of attention, looks healthy except for some extra pounds. She's not giving me any clear signals that indicate pain except for her poor behavior undersaddle, which I can't really say is new. She's always been difficult, some days are just worse then others.
Today went so poorly tho that it got me doubting myself and in a pannic that I'm missing something that she's trying to tell me. I don't know if I'm just a poor rider and not doing a very good job of training her, or if she is in pain and I just can't see it.
It's been suggested to me to have a chiropractor out to see her. The person who suggested this is someone that I often agree with and it's finally dawning on me that this person is probably right this time too. I'm sorry I didn't see that sooner.
So I'm looking to get some other opinions and see what I end up with. I am hesitant to have a chiro out because of a lot of factors, I don't know if it's what she needs. I don't even know if she needs anything.

That's where you guys come in. I need advice. I no longer trust myself to make a good decision for her so I'm asking you if you notice her being stiff or notice anything at all. If the behavior I've described would make you think that she needs a chiro. Or if you think it's all me, or if it's just Beauty being Beauty. Feel freel to say anything and make any suggestions. If you think she's in pain, say it. If you think it's me, say it. Don't worry about hurting my feelings becaue I can't feel much worse then I do right now so bring it on.
I want to do what's best for Beauty and if she really needs a chiro and this is a pain issue then I'll just have to break down and shell out the money. But I can't afford to do that enless that really is what she needs and I just don't know anymore. So I'm running to you guys for help, which is what I do best.

A video from today will be coming and added soon so you can see her in action. It was not a good day and she pranced the whole time and I didn't spend a lot of time editing it but i want honest opinions based on what you see.

EDIT: here's the video. I didn't bother putting in on youtube because this was faster. We mostly did circles because it was the only thing that sort of kept her from bolting. http://www.onetruemedia.com/otm_site/view_shared?p=71fdad69efac57bf46aeeb

WashingtonBay

10-09-2008, 09:34 PM

While we wait for the video... what are you feeding her? Type and amounts.

Annie&Dixie

10-09-2008, 09:39 PM

I am so sorry Dakota...I really wish I could help you get the answers that you need.

I haven't been all up to date with what is going on with Beauty but I'm sure you're doing everything that you can for her. Don't doubt yourself so much, I promise you're not doing that bad and from what I've seen, you're a pretty dang good rider. I understand where you're coming from, I am exactly the same. I start panicing and freaking out about things because I don't always have as much confidence in myself that I would like to have, and this is just from past experiences with people and myself. The more intiative you take in a situation, as you are now, the more confident and trusting of your own decision-making you will become. I'm slowly learning this.

As for the chiro, we have one at our barn regulary and he has done great things with horses. He also gives us insight on how the horse is physically. Honestly, I think a horse should see a chiro at least once in it's lifetime...even though I don't think there is really anything wrong with Dixie. I signed her up for the next visit just so she can get checked.

Don't worry, I'm positive you are a great horsey-mommy and that you are doing everything you can!!

Dakota Sunrise

10-09-2008, 09:42 PM

While we wait for the video... what are you feeding her? Type and amounts.

Well she's on pasture 24/7 but there's not a whole lot of grass left. They (Dakota and Beauty and two Pygmy goats) get one square bale (about 8 to 10 flakes in each bale) of just grass hay (no green alfalfa stuff) a day and usually don't eat it all. She gets a little under half a coffee can of a 12% high oil grain that has a variety of stuff in it, each morning. My feed store makes it. Occasionally I'll take them to their "play pasture" that has a little bit more grass in it, but they only stay down there for two hours or so at a time and it's not real lush or anything.
She also just recenly started getting one Majesty's Flex Wafer supplement a day.

Arrow

10-09-2008, 09:44 PM

She's got plenty of weight on her--what exactly are you feeding her besides hay/grass? Maybe you need to cut way back. Arrow was a total dipstick today--prancing, being a pain for no earthly reason--just one of those days. You might give her a couple days off and then see how the next ride goes. They do sense a change of seasons, too--it could be the cooler weather.

JackieB

10-09-2008, 09:45 PM

I don't mean this in any condescending way at all, but please try to relax a bit, Dakota. You don't need to be doubting yourself like this. Chances are Beauty just had a bee in her bonnet today. But even if she does need to see a chiropractor or something, you haven't done anything wrong. You've shared all of your knowledge with everyone along the way and graciously taken their advice. You'll get this figured out.

I'm not seeing where you did anything that you need to regret. It sounds like Beauty is safe and out with Dakota tonight.

See if you can think some pleasant thoughts and get a good nights rest. You'll get great advice tomorrow, but we hate to think of you all stressed out when you do everything you possibly know how to do to care for all of your animals. We'll be here to help you try to figure this out.

WashingtonBay

10-09-2008, 09:48 PM

Well she's on pasture 24/7 but there's not a whole lot of grass left. They (Dakota and Beauty and two Pygmy goats) get one square bale (about 8 to 10 flakes in each bale) of just grass hay (no green alfalfa stuff) a day and usually don't eat it all. She gets a little under half a coffee can of a 12% high oil grain that has a variety of stuff in it, each morning. My feed store makes it. Occasionally I'll take them to their "play pasture" that has a little bit more grass in it, but they only stay down there for two hours or so at a time and it's not real lush or anything.
She also just recenly started getting one Majesty's Flex Wafer supplement a day.

She may just be jacked up on that grain. I dunno. I have not watched the video, and don't have time now, but it sounds more like excess energy than any kind of pain issue.

I'll see what's all been discussed by morning... please try to go easy on yourself, as Jacke says :)

ownedby7horses

10-09-2008, 09:54 PM

Was there a change in the weather at all? My horses will get goofy if there is a change or there's going to be a change in weather. Also, like WB said, what are you feeding her & how much?

As for riding and getting her to settle down, my suggestion to you is do lots of serpantines, figure 8's, changes of direction, upward & downward transistions. Just ride, basically what worked for me is that as long as I kept it spontaneous, he stayed sane. He never knew what was coming next so it kept him thinking & didn't give him time to think about a thing. I did this for about 2 weeks (maybe even longer, I don't remember) EACH DAY & it worked. He eventually was "butter in my fingers" and that little 'hot head' was a decent little horse after that. He could get hot when I wanted him too, but he was easy to calm down too.

I hope that helps Dakota

One more thing....you are a darn good rider. Don't get down on yourself. You have done great work, you might have just hit a rocky part, but you guys will overcome this too, and it'll make you a better team yet. Keep your chin up girl!

Country Girl 43

10-09-2008, 10:12 PM

Dakota....I agree, it cold just be the change in the seasons. PLUS she is a MARE. Even our ole Ladybird is feeling a bit more spunky. It could just "be in the air"....is she in heat?

She was probably having an off day, and everyone is entitled to one of those. Just get some rest and relax, and go try again tomorrow. Also...I would cut out the grain stuff. She has got PLENTY of weight! :)

Equine_Woman

10-09-2008, 10:39 PM

Sounds like my barrel horse at home. Seriously. Sterling can act like a total spaz one day and be a great great horse the next. Weather, season, time of the month. . all that affects her. (Theres a reason people love geldings. . .) Try not to take it too hard. I seriously don't ride my mare at home because of how spazzy she is. I know that's not an option for you but I just wanted to let you know you aren't alone. I trailer Sterling if I'm riding her. She's always been like that. Every barn we've ever been too she's spastic. . .yet when we get to a trail or a show she is 100% sane (well except a the gate, but that's me causing not her.)

My suggestion is on days that she starts out acting like a spaz take a step back and work on calming exercises. No speed or pattern work. Practice giving, flexing, moving hips, turning and working her butt. All slow work. Work up and down your arena fence, stop, back a few steps, turn on the haunches. . . nose in, nose out. You get the picture. All this done at a walk. It's important for you to be able to calm Beauty wherever you go. Try not to let yourself get upset when she starts like she did. It's just part of riding a barrel horse. Beauty is getting more into shape and is going to get stronger. . and if you can learn some calm down cues for her ya'll will be great.

Equine_Woman

10-09-2008, 10:45 PM

Okay i watched the video. My suggestion is to work on really getting Beauty to give to you. She's evading the bit quite a lot which is allowing her to run through your hands. Reall get her to be soft in the bit before you work the pattern. Your horse should always give to the bit before you move to neck reining.

And again, on the days you can sense she's ready to explode stay away from the barrels and the cones. That's like feeding a 2 year old candy!! She knows what you do around barrels and cones and she likes it. . .move away from them and work on slow exercises and I think ya'll will really benefit!!! Not to mention you will build her heiny up if you do rollbacks on the fence. It's also important in barrels for you to be able to control shoulders completely. Thats a good exercise on days like this. You can do it!! Hang in there !

Another thing, Beauty may be bored with arena work. . have ya'll been on a trail ride lately?

Edited to add you have a great seat!!! Don't get down on yourself!

mandisue

10-10-2008, 04:00 AM

I agree with Equine a LOT of barrel horses get burnt out on arenas, thats why you see so many not wanting to go into an arena at a show and then they just act like idiots until they get something different, like trail riding. Too much arena work can be bad on a horse. Just like humans they get bored and burnt out on the same thing all the time. Which can sometimes result in prancing bucking rearing etc..And you have been doing a lot of arena work lately right? I would STRONGLY recommend getting her out on trail if you haven't already. Also as WB said half a coffee can of grain is probably too much for her, especially as she looks quite fed well.Peggy sue will know more but on an already hyper animal I would switch to a lower percentage grain. ( I have done this with my own barrel horses) Our feed mill has a 12% and a 9% see what your mill has. Maybe try the lower protein level.

Dakota Sunrise

10-10-2008, 06:39 AM

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I appriciate it.

I have cut her back quite a bit on the grain.. I was afraid to cut any more out because doesn't she need the nutrition? I didn't think hay alone would be enough. Looking at it now it's less then 1/2 a coffee can that she gets.. more like 1/3 or something.

She's not in heat, at least I don't think she is. I can usually tell when she is because she starts to really like Dakota.:rolleyes:
She isn't always that evasive of the bit.. I have no idea what was up with the prancing and the head straight up in the air.. I was desperately trying to get her to just do simple stuff that I thought we had masters- walk in a circle around a cone, walk a figure eight, walk in a straigt line. Not bolt.:rolleyes: But I could barely even get her to stay in a walk, grr. It makes me feel like a really bad rider because I'm on her mouth, but the second I give her her head she goes. RAWR

Let see.. oh yeah, about too much arena work, I've actually been trail riding her quite a bit with my neighbor.:) We've been trail riding about 2 times a week or so- my neighbor's gelding really has a calming effect on her. She's actually very good as long as she's allowed to follow him- she hates to lead. I've actually gotten her to lope right next to him and stay nice and calm. I've also been able to take her out and let her run--I've taught her that "SHHHHH!" means GO!:cool:)--- which I think she really enjoys. It's good for both of us. She doesn't bolt enless she's by herself.
I can't trail ride her by herself though. She just gets way too hyper, balks and backs, prances the whole time, tries to bolt, etc. I've tried everything, but it's really not worth the fight. So I ride her in the arena when we're by ourselves and we trail ride when I can go with my neighbor. If I have to take her down to Donna's (my neighbor) house to meet up with her and Shadow (her horse) I usually just lead her there, which I don't really mind doing. It's only a mile or so, and it doesn't take us long to walk and trot/jog it. That way I don't have to fight with her but she doesn't think she's won because I cut her off before the bad behavior started.

I think I'm going to start lunging her before each arena ride so it may burn off a little excess energy. Couldn't hurt, right?

Thanks again for all the advice everyone. xD We'll work through this, we have before. It just got to me, and I started wondering if I was doing anything right. Thanks for all the reasurance. Don't know what i'd do without you guys! <3

mandisue

10-10-2008, 06:42 AM

Lunging would be a good idea Dakota. ( applause ) I always lunge 'em before getting on unless they're older and ploddy.

Peggy Sue

10-10-2008, 06:51 AM

WashingtonBay

10-10-2008, 06:57 AM

Ok - Now I've seen the video :)

I don't see a horse who is in pain... annoyed maybe, but not in pain. My jury is still out on the benefit of chiropractic on limited budget. I'm not sure that's where you need to spend money right now. She might be a little jacked up on that grain. Some horses, it doesn't take much to make them hot.

What I see is a horse who is a little hot, and in the mood she's in, a little overstimulated. I think the video might be a little bit sped up, and that might be making it seem even more frenzied.

What I mean by overstimulated is you're doing one thing then another then another giving her lots of inputs. Picture how you'd react if you were in a hyper mood and someone started asking you a bunch of questions in rapid succession.... it would make you more tense, not less.

IMHO, you're asking for too tight a circle at the jog than she's ready for. She's too uncollected to do that and stay balanced, so you end up just kind of pulling her around it and it's stressing her out. Then you stop and immediately back up. More questions.

When she's in this kind of mood I would DO less. Relax, let her relax and calm down, do some loose rein walking around the outside of the arena and let her be. Talk low, even lay your hand on her neck and just get her to settle. Less input. No questions, let her get her composure back. If you want to bend and circle and warm her up, start easy and think calm quiet circle. You want to lead her by example, you want calm, and you're calm and not overly busy. And at the jog, make your circles about twice the size you're making, and tighten them up as she masters them calm and cool and unfrustrated.

That's my two cents. :)

Dakota Sunrise

10-10-2008, 07:02 AM

take a different approach to her feed ... what you are givingher is not working!! Look into a ration balancer IOW a good vitamin/mineral supplement

Her body type to me SCEAMS IR, add some MagOx will help her utilize the sugars she does get.. grass has sugars and depending on teh time of year can/is very high levels!!!

Thank you for the advice. I'm a little confused though:huh:... what is IR and MagOx? What would you suggest for a good feed for her? She is an easy keeper. I wouldn't have guessed that when I first got her, but she is. She certainly gains weight fast. I was looking at pictures of her from month to month, from when I first got her in January to the present, and it's amazing how much weight she gained.

A ration balancer will work on BOTH your horses ...

What exactly is a ration balancer? I'm very hesitant to switch Dakota off of the feed he's on now because he's finally maintaining a half decent weight. He gets 2 lbs of grain every morning, BL pellet supplement, and a lot of beet pulp- I'm a big fan of beetpulp!:p But then again you probably know better then me because I am pretty much clueless when it comes to different types of feeds and protein/sugar levels, etc.:doh:

also what kind of bit are you using I can't see it in the video??

Originally I had her in a wonder bit, but for our last few rides I switched her to a full cheek snaffle which was suggested to me by a few people. She didn't respond all that well to it, but I won't blame her behavior on the bit alone. She just has her days when everything is wrong and nothing is right.

Dakota Sunrise

10-10-2008, 07:11 AM

I completely agree with you. You're totally right, as usual.:) I had the same thoughts, but.. well it's hard to explain but I'll give it a shot.

There was no loose rein walking- I did try that but the second she got her head she was gone. I didn't want her to trot those small circles, she was supposed to be walking but nothing I did would bring her down. I tried letting her trot up one side of the arena and then walk, but she wouldn't trot she'd try to canter. At the end of the ride (and this isn't on video) the goal was to get her to walk a figure eight without leaping into a trot or trying to bolt. It took a very long time to accomplish that.

I will try everything you suggested and if she's in the right mood it will work. You've probably seen some of our recent videos of her at a nice, calm trot doing circles and figure eight, totally controlled.
But when she's in the kind of mood she was in yesterday, you basically do anything you can to keep her from bolting. Looking back, it may have been in my best interest to go get the lunge line but I didn't for some reason that escapes me now. As usual, hindsight is 20/20.:doh:
The only good thing I have to say about yesterdays ride is wow, we're getting so good at backing up!:D

Ok - Now I've seen the video :)

I don't see a horse who is in pain... annoyed maybe, but not in pain. My jury is still out on the benefit of chiropractic on limited budget. I'm not sure that's where you need to spend money right now. She might be a little jacked up on that grain. Some horses, it doesn't take much to make them hot.

What I see is a horse who is a little hot, and in the mood she's in, a little overstimulated. I think the video might be a little bit sped up, and that might be making it seem even more frenzied.

What I mean by overstimulated is you're doing one thing then another then another giving her lots of inputs. Picture how you'd react if you were in a hyper mood and someone started asking you a bunch of questions in rapid succession.... it would make you more tense, not less.

IMHO, you're asking for too tight a circle at the jog than she's ready for. She's too uncollected to do that and stay balanced, so you end up just kind of pulling her around it and it's stressing her out. Then you stop and immediately back up. More questions.

When she's in this kind of mood I would DO less. Relax, let her relax and calm down, do some loose rein walking around the outside of the arena and let her be. Talk low, even lay your hand on her neck and just get her to settle. Less input. No questions, let her get her composure back. If you want to bend and circle and warm her up, start easy and think calm quiet circle. You want to lead her by example, you want calm, and you're calm and not overly busy. And at the jog, make your circles about twice the size you're making, and tighten them up as she masters them calm and cool and unfrustrated.

That's my two cents. :)

mandisue

10-10-2008, 07:20 AM

As I said before about the grain, if nothing else lower the percentage of your grain, go from 12% to 8 or 9% I'm sure the mill you buy from would have it, I've done this with many older horses who were hyper on the 12%. Grain has a lot to do with a horses energy level especially one that is normally hyper because of being a barrel or highly athletic horse. Would this not work Peggy Sue?

WashingtonBay

10-10-2008, 07:26 AM

I'd just suggest doing some calmer quieter work to help GET her in the mood to work. If she's prancing and jigging instead of walking, just say eeeeasy, less input, go around the outside of the arena. If you're both escalating and fighting each other, stop... and lay your hand on her neck, get her composure back, maybe flex her neck each direction, Clinton Anderson style, do you know what that means? It seems to have a good calming effect. Then go again, easy.... don't ask for speed until she's not in this bolty mood any more and you're relaxed too. She earns speed when she can handle it without losing her cool.

If you decide to lunge her first, I wouldn't let her just bolt and buck there either... calm quiet... composure.

Mine is in that mood all the time, it's his nature, and if he's not a little coiled at the start of a ride I start to worry about him... but with horses like this, less is more. You be the quiet one.

HeartofSteel

10-10-2008, 07:33 AM

IR is Insulin Resistant, although I doubt she is. Here is a link if you would like to read about it: http://www.extension.uconn.edu/ansci/ext/insulinresistance.htm
We have all had those days and with mares it just seems to be worse... *sigh, girls* lol. My old horse used to be so perfect some days and other days she would just be a night mare. I started giving her Mare Magic just to help her sort herself out a bit, I also started her on a multi-vitamin because Vitamin B deficency can cause excited-ness.

The first thing I did notice in the video was her evasion of the bit, which you said she isn't normally like that so I don't think thats the problem unless it continues or gets worse than I would look into that. I would like to comment on the circles though Wbay kinda covered it. When you turn her in the circle she is completely blowing through her outside shoulder, popping it out and turning her neck and head. This throws her really on her forehand. I don't want to be kinda naggy or RAWRish but I would like to suggest that when you ride a circle you think that there is a track on the ground and all 4 feet have to stay on the track. I'm not sure how her lateral or sideways movement is off your leg but when you do go on the circle ride with two hands (not sure if you are or not;)) and ride the circle with your legs, keep her between your legs. With the reins you should ask for a slight bend to the inside and you can stop the outside shoulder with the outside rein. If she starts blowing through her shoulder and turning her head just do light little squeezy's on the outside rein just to say "Hey, I don't want your shoulder out there".
I hope that helps a little bit, its kinda hard to explain in typing.

vicklynn

10-10-2008, 08:01 AM

Yup, she just looks full of herself to me.
I am in favor of either lowering her percent of feed, or putting her on a low percent pellet. Sugars are bad for some horses, and corn is pure sugar.
Myst is an easy keeper, she gets 1lb of pellets AM and PM, no supps, nothing but hay with it.

I am going to give you a class that was taught to me by Chris Cox. It works. I trained Myst to lower her head and give and was so happy with her response, I use this on and off as needed for both horses.
I see that head in Beauty right now.
Some may not agree with it, but it works, seriously. I saw some high headed horses at Chris Coxs ranch during this class, and they came out learning that they need to release or be uncomfortable. They looked so much more relaxed, and learned to release off the bit.

Sit in the saddle, take a good hold on the reins, just up the neck a hair, and pull up like your going over your head. Your reins should still be in front of you but about eye level. When you get pressure from her, hold it, let her back, let her toss that head, but until she releases, do not release. If Beauty were to start rearing, let loose damn it. I dont think you said she rears, dont remember, this will not teach a horse to rear, just making sure you got that part. After doing that successfully a few times, stand up in your stirups and do the same thing.
Eventually she will drop that head off any pressure, and if she gives you head issues later, you would not have to be as firm as the first class, and it only takes a min, they remember, head down and all is good.
I dont mean show horse head down, you get that head set where you want it, but please get it out of the air like it is now. She is not relaxed.
One other thing I do. If City is in one of his, hey ma, I wanna be a dumb butt stage, I keep him in a 10 to 20 ft area and make him work. I make him back, I make him do neck work, make him turn small circles, not in order, but keep changing it up. I will not ride him with his head up, that is to dangerous for me cause that shows me, he is in charge, and that aint happening. If hes not relaxed, Im not moving out. We sit and work. It usually only takes about 10 min if hes really bad, but the older he gets, the better, and shhhh dont tell, the last two times Ive mounted, Ive been able to ride off...man I love that horse.
Dont forget your ground work before you mount. Get that respect on the ground first.

I enjoyed your video, and I am so very jealous of you backing her. Mysts downside in the saddle is backing. She does great on the ground and while ground driving. What do you do? Can you give me advise on that?
You know I love Beauty, she is so sweet and full of energy. I love her color, duh hu? Dont give up on you. You are doing fine. If we never felt like were beat, or fusterated about something with our horses, we wouldnt be human, or we thought we knew it all...
Your doing just great my dear, weather my advise works for you or not. You ask, you get this and that for answers, and you use what you need in your training. The key here is, YOU ASKED. That makes for a good, no great, owner.
((HUGS))

Peggy Sue

10-10-2008, 08:12 AM

you dont' wanna look at protien % you wanna look at ingedients!!!

a ration balancer is a vitamin/mineral supplement with added amino acids adn NORMALLY pro/pre bios

if you Dakota is doing well on 2lbs of grain he will do amazing on 1 lb or ration balancer just add yyour beet pulp to replace the calories

IR was described above .. she may not be full blown YET but when you see the body type after dealing with it you just KNOW

Mg is Magnesuim adn is needed to remove the sugars out of the system instead of storing them a def also causes horses to be excitable and spooky and hyper also can cause stiffness thoughout the body :)

I personally would put her in a o ring snaffle so it moves when she tries to brace or grab at it and do lots of SLOW work... think standing still and flexing to you ... if she turns fine hold it until she stops

quiet your legs and seat down be still ... which is HARD TO DO !!

Depending on your area will depend on which ration balancers you can get or which ones you want

Dakota Sunrise

10-10-2008, 08:25 AM

Vicklynn- all I can say to that is THANK YOU! Not only did you give me some excellent training advice (although I admit that i'm going to have to reread it to fully understand what I need to do. I'm not too bright, lol:rolleyes:) but the encouragement and reasurance was much needed too. Thank you. <3

Let see... she's not a rearer, at least she never has with me before. Dakota occasionally used to when we were working through our herdbound issue, but Beauty never has. So that *shouldn't* be a problem.

About the feed, what kind of pellets? Do you guys have a name of a kind of feed that might be good for her? Preferaby something that my small-town feed store might actually carry because if I have to ask my mom to drive me all over the place trying to find a certain kind off feed she may kill me.:innocent: lol

You know I love Beauty, she is so sweet and full of energy.

You pegged it there. It's hard not to love her because she really is sweet. If you saw her in the pasture you wouldn't believe she was the same horse. She loves attention, comes right up to be petted. Want me to rub her face, puts her nose in my hand and blows softly. When she does that I always blow back... it may sound stupid but I read somewhere that that is how horses greet eachother and once they learn your scent and it gets in their nostrils they won't ever forget you. It's a way to communicate with them- the indians used to do it. I do it with my horses all the time.
She has the strength and the power I long for and I don't want to take that away from her. I just want us to be able to work together with it, and not have her use it against me. There's nothing better then when we're both feeling good and I can just let her go and let her run. She is incredibily fast, and it's the only time when she's perfecty smooth, as if she just started flying. It makes me feel free.

I enjoyed your video, and I am so very jealous of you backing her. Mysts downside in the saddle is backing. She does great on the ground and while ground driving. What do you do? Can you give me advise on that?

Wow! Finally something that I feel qualified to give advice on! :D
I love watching reiners and I think it's so cool how fast their horses back and the sliding stops they do. I have no idea how to teach Beauty to whoa like that, so I opted for the backing.;)
I just recently figured out what the trick to it is. I used just pull back (like pull and release- not just reefing on her mouth) and say "back". It did work, but not that well. What I do now is say "back", pull back just a little, and --this is the important part-- use my legs. I don't kick, I just squeeze my calves and give her a nudge with my heels and she shoots right back until I release the preasure, cease the squeezing and say 'whoa.' Works every time. It only took me 8 months to figure it out.:p It almost seems like an odd way of asking the horse to back, because your using your legs and asking to go but pulling back. But then again she knows what back means, the little bit of contact just enforces that, and the leg preasure just asks for movement, not necessarily meaning forward, just movement. I guess whatever works, right?

vicklynn

10-10-2008, 08:55 AM

Oh my, there are soooo many types of pellets. I buy what I can afford but still not the cheaper ones. Im an inbetween girl..lol
As much as I love Peggy Sues advice, and she would loose me in a conversation big time..lol. I still dont feed the way she does.
Ived never had problems with feeding the way I did sence I was, well never mind when it was..lol, and I still dont. Growth spurts were new to me, and the first time Ive delt with them, Im past that now, and have City and Myst on schedules.
Pellets, I pay 9 or 10 bucks for feed, I buy Crescent feeds, not sure how far they supply. I feed City 2lbs AM and PM and Myst 1lb AM and PM. I stay away from the sweet feeds, and mixed feeds. Some people feed oats, I hear that those are good. I buy
Maybe we need a feed post. Ill go start one. See who uses what type of grains.

All4Grace

10-10-2008, 09:04 AM

If you're both escalating and fighting each other, stop... and lay your hand on her neck, get her composure back, maybe flex her neck each direction, Clinton Anderson style, do you know what that means? It seems to have a good calming effect. Then go again, easy.... don't ask for speed until she's not in this bolty mood any more and you're relaxed too
.

Dakota I do this excercise with all the horses, especially if they are feeling bratty. It works very well in getting them to focus on you without the added pressure of riding.
Did you see the video I did of Vicor, with the ground work, the head flexing? Yup! got that from Clinton Anderson. It is something I have used ever since watching him in a clinic. So Far if has worked on all the horses I have used it on. So far. :)

As for the grain I agree 100% everyone about it just might be too much. None of our horses get grain, not even Vicor! They are all fat and happy.(Vic is getting there :D) However our hay has a bit more nutrition then much of the east coast stuff. I'd look for a more complete grain with less suger and protien.
When she seems to be in this mood, like WB said, you need to relax too and not ask alot of her, she'll just get more testy and we don't want either of you to get hurt, or lose that love you have for her and riding. (I am speaking from experience on that :D) It's a mare thing I swear!!!:p

Peggy Sue

10-10-2008, 09:05 AM

pm or post your zip adn I will see what we can find ....

Feeding is not that complicated the numbers get confusing sure BUT here is the thing ... look for actual PRODUCT names on the tag not such and such products... look for forage base NOT grain.. if you have a hyper or easy to keep horse AVOID corn, oats and barely high sugars and starchs... look for low feeding levels makes it easier on checkbook :)

Yep my pellets are $23 a bag BUT one bag will last one horse 50 days!! so less then 50 cents a day

Dakota Sunrise

10-10-2008, 09:08 AM

PaintedLady

10-10-2008, 09:18 AM

I watched your video. I honestly can't see a stiffness. I do see an energetic horse.
My advice would be to slow down (with your training.) I know it seems like a step backwards, but the lunging sounds like a GREAT idea to me! Make her work. Make her think & slow down. Make the wrong things hard, and the right things easy. Make her LISTEN! (I know...we talk a good talk, don't we?) If she ignores you on the ground, it's almost a guarantee that you'll be ignored in the saddle, too. I don't think you have a round pen, but that thing helped me/us SO much!
Look at the ingredients of what you're feeding her. The Lady's attitude really changes when she's getting grain. She just plain doesn't NEED all that protein!
Beauty looks great! A little on the heavy side, (I'm heavy too, so I know how that goes...) but nice and sleek....and georgeous! I think as Americans, we like to see our animals on the heavier side. Which brings up ANOTHER thing....you've always 'fussed' about Dakota being too thin, but I don't think so. (Sorry...got sidetracked...just always wanted to say that.)
I read Vick's post with great interest. I'll have to try that too.
Just remember....we all have 'our days.' I don't think as quickly as I'd always like, but hindsight is 20/20. Go easy on yourself. So far, in one way or another, I think everyone's said that.....You are doing SO well! I only wish I could ride like you.
I have one other suggestion...and a lot of people may not like it. Have you considered a tie down? Every barrell racer I've ever met uses one. (Might just be seen in this area...so...consider that...) It just helps when they are trying to bring their heads up and take off with you, (Some horses will knock your teeth out of your head!) and from what I've seen, Beauty is very much a heads up horse.....
I don't mean to crank em down so tight they can't move...I am referring to the 'heads up bit evasion'....it might help. (Jewel HATED it...but she hated anything I wanted her to do...) I firmly believe in 'doing whatever it takes', whether they like it...or not.
Personally, I think you guys are doing great! Sounds to me like you just had a bad day, and are beating yourself up over it. We all have these 'moments,' if that's any consolation....

Peggy Sue

10-10-2008, 09:28 AM

Byuckeye's Gro N Win 1lb per DAY
http://www.buckeyenutrition.com/cgi-bin/dealer.cgi

McCauley's M30
http://www.mccauleybros.com/contact/dealer_locator.cfm#PA

Progressive Pro Advantage Grass Formula
http://prognutrition.com/DealerLocatorPA.htm

Tribute Essential K
http://www.tributehorsefeeds.com/index.php?option=com_mtzcssearch&task=advsearch2&search_id=241&Itemid=99999999

Triple Crown has a ton of dealers in you area
TC30% Supplement
http://www.blueseal.com/company/locaterResults.php
http://southernstates.findlocation.com/results.aspx?page=default

Kalmbach has several ration balancers available from them
932WIN32% Horse Supplement Pels 93434% Horse Supplement Pels 93535% Horse Supplement Pels
http://www.kalmbachfeeds.com/Dealers.php?zipcode=16362&submit=Find+Nearest+Dealers

Hope that helps
You are looking at more money per bag but feed less... make up the calories as needed with either beet pulp or alfalfa pellet/cubes or rice bran or BOSS or Oats

vicklynn

10-10-2008, 09:36 AM

Need to chime in on this here.
Please if you barrel race, do not take offence to this. This is what I see others doing(butt high), I have done(tie down), and have learned differently today.

When I barrel raced in the past, one horse I had a tie down on, one I didnt.
The one I had a tie down on was a star gazer and was in training to lower his head. The other was a goer for sure, but she kept her head out of my face, no tie down needed. I always kept my butt in the seat though.
I have seen barrel racers NOT now how to ride, seriously. I have talked with others at events and we just go WTH. These people that were out to win, get tossed off from making a spin, why, cause they have NO control over their horses, they are just sitting on them and running, butt up out the air with every beat, and they wonder why they arent winning, but falling off, and or failing, or flailing around.
Train you and your horse before you game. Learn to ride, butt in saddle, balance and just lean forward and go for broke. Argh, I hate watching these girls with their butt out of the saddle trying to call themselves riding. I hate seeing these girls with horses so hot they cant control them, the horses are just go, turn, go, turn, go and were done. Wow, loads of training for that hu? NOT.
I used a tie down once, but never again. IF I cant get my horse off the bit and that head down with one type class, then I dont need to be riding. Sorry. As much as I have a love/hate feeling about Chris Cox, this is one thing I truly believe in.
Sorry about the vent part, but some barrel racers just make my skin crawl.
Oh, when City was 3, he got ribbons, why, cause he was focused, he was calm and others were being spastic. And we never galloped, we trotted and cantered. If we continued on with it, he would be carrying blue quite often Im sure. At the time, we were doing alot of arena work, then we would do some barrels, mostly at trots, for control, then speed.

mandisue

10-10-2008, 09:40 AM

Vicky I am a firm believer in the head lowering that you speak about with chris cox, I've seen his stuf fwork!!

Tatesgram

10-10-2008, 09:47 AM

I just recently figured out what the trick to it is. I used just pull back (like pull and release- not just reefing on her mouth) and say "back". It did work, but not that well. What I do now is say "back", pull back just a little, and --this is the important part-- use my legs. I don't kick, I just squeeze my calves and give her a nudge with my heels and she shoots right back until I release the preasure, cease the squeezing and say 'whoa.' Works every time. It only took me 8 months to figure it out.:p It almost seems like an odd way of asking the horse to back, because your using your legs and asking to go but pulling back. But then again she knows what back means, the little bit of contact just enforces that, and the leg preasure just asks for movement, not necessarily meaning forward, just movement. I guess whatever works, right?

First off, let me say I really enjoyed the video. Youtube is blocked here at work. So this was great. You are a very good rider.

I can't give you advice like the others, but I did notice toward the end of the video that she looked a little more relaxed, her head was lower and she didn't seem to be quite as frustrated. You did say there was more after the video, but that is the only thing I noticed.

This is almost exactly how I back my horses, and Rose will back all the way around the arena if you let her. :) The guy that started her for me said she could go almost as fast backward and she could forward.

There is one bit of advice I'll give. When you are frustrated and feeling frazzled, your horse picks up on it. What the others have said about relaxing, so true. I have confidence issues. Once in the saddle, I will start relaxing, after a few minutes. Unless the one I'm riding is having one of those days, then I have found that walking around the round pen or in the yard, stepping over objects, cross ties, landscape timbers, folded tarps, relaxes me. I don't know if it does anything for the horse, but it helps me feel a little more in control and relaxed.

Dakota Sunrise

10-10-2008, 10:49 AM

Painted Lady: Thanks for all your kind words.:) I definately appriciate it.
I went ahead and lunged her today, but that will be another thread that i'll make tonight. Don't have time right now.
As for the tie down.. I don't know. It's something I've thought about quite a bit. I know her old owners used one her. I don't know if it would help, or if it would be just like taking the easy way out. I haven't come to any decisions about it yet.
But you are right, I'm yet to see a barrel racer (in my area) that doesn't have a tie down on their horse. And not all of them are untrained, hot headed horses that only know how to run and nothing else.

PeggySue: thanks for the links!:cowboy: I think something from Blue Seal will be doable, because I know of a feedstore that carries that brand. I'm not exactly sure what I'm looking for, but this caught me eye. Am I even on the right track? The right ballpark? lol:innocent: http://www.blueseal.com/equine/productpages/21_MinaViteLite.pdf

Tatesgram: Thanks for the kind words and the advice. I will definately handle the situation differently and hopefully better next time.:)
I'm glad to hear that someone else uses that technique for backing their horse! Now I know I'm not nuts, lol.:cool:

Pinky

10-10-2008, 11:04 AM

*hugs*
I know what it's like to go back to square one. Just think of it as more practise ;)
I can't really offer much advice other than never, ever give up.
Just keep being consistant and she will come around :)
How's her trot right now? I remember you saying you managed to get it to where it was sit-able. :D

JackieB

10-10-2008, 11:11 AM

I don't have time right now (work), but I've got several suggestions that I think you might want to consider. Probably they've all been mentioned already, but I watched the video and have some thoughts.

Stay optimistic. These are all things to learn that will help you become a phenomenal horsewoman!

Dakota Sunrise

10-10-2008, 11:29 AM

Pinky: thank you. I never will give up, it just gets really frustrating sometimes.

As for her trot, we-elllll.....it depends on her mood. If she's in a good mood and relaxed and can sometimes get her to do this really nice jog/slow trot type deal that is actually sitable!:D But if she's hyper at all then her trot is terrible. Same with her lope, way sucky.:doh: Her gallop is amazing though. <3

JackieB: If you get time, I would love to hear your suggestions.:) You always have good advice for me. Thanks.

Peggy Sue

10-10-2008, 11:30 AM

I forgot about that one completely it is fairly new and I forget it sometimes most times I should say

Yes that would be perfect and I would try them on that with some beet pulp without any grain product FIRST then if you need to add later you can, just make sure you increase HIS beet pulp so you aren't losing too many calories
I have to go for a bit but I have a page someplace that tells calories levels on common feedstuff that may help you a bit... but I always just use beet pulp and increase the level as needed LOL simple easy and CHEAP!!!

Dakota Sunrise

10-10-2008, 02:59 PM

Peggy Sue

10-10-2008, 03:52 PM

Great! Hopefully my feedstore will carry that kind. If it does, then i'll give it a try.:)

IF they don't ask them to ORDER it for you !! They should be able to do that and with your two you will prob need one bag every 25 days !!!

JackieB

10-10-2008, 04:37 PM

Hi Dakota,

You've received tons of great advice. I just read through every post on this thread. Since you have so much detail, I'm going to try to stay as brief as possible (difficult for me, I know :))

Lots of good suggestions, but probably too many to implement. Pick some that you think might work with Beauty. If it was up to me, I'd follow Equine_Woman's suggestions. That's the Clinton Anderson stuff all the way. You've got to get to where Beauty will give her head, every time, no questions. A horse with its head touching the girth strap can't run off with a rider very fast.

If it was me, I'd cut the grain out entirely and just make sure that they have a mineral block. My understanding, from some people who know A TON about horses is that horses don't need grain. At least not unless they are major athletes burning tons of calories every day. Wild horses never get any grain and they live just fine.

It's impossible to control a horse that won't lower its head. Huge problem for Buster early on. A tie down is fine. Use one if you need to for awhile. My preference is a running martingale because you can actually train with one, but don't ever use a martingale with anything but a snaffle bit. I can explain how a running martingale works if you'd like.

Stay confident. I watched the video. You're doing just fine.

Not too brief. :) Sorry. :) Itz ma birfday and I can ramble if I want, I guess. :)

Gypsy Rose

10-10-2008, 04:58 PM

JackieB- I totally agree with you that most horses don't really need grain. But no hay type is going to carry all the vitamins and minerals a horse needs in the proper balance, and a mineral block may not be enough, It definitely won't help in the vitamin and amino acid area.

That's why PeggySue suggested the RB. I myself feed a vitamin/mineral supplement.

shynbvs

10-10-2008, 05:31 PM

have you had any other days like this? If not she couldn't just be having a bad day, just like everyone does.

rockyridge

10-10-2008, 06:36 PM

well here goes....

your horse looks beautiful...and too heavy...which you have heard...when you go to your feed store take a bucket with some grain and your coffee can and measure and mark where one pound is and 1/2 pound.....then we and you can make better decisions...because you have to measure to know exactly what you are giving...you received some great advice on feed and nutrition...but mark your can so you know what's what...

on the tape....your legs are restless...and since she gives an appearance of being hot this will make her more so...she backs well and your method to back her is the correct method ...anyone who shows... backs using their legs .....she does this well...at 2:47 on your tape...i watched about 9 times.....she steps way to the inside with her right hind....it shows too at the circle(which was too small for the speed) at 3:06 again with her right hind....
how old is she? sorry that i don't know....
i disagree with a tie down...a horse with a tie down ...needs training....and there are plenty of horses that barrel with out a tie down....but there are more that barrel with a tir down who don't know how to ride and who's horses are not trained....and the only horses who are arena sour have only been run inside of one.....

you must be secure in your riding ability and your training...and you must also train(lessons and exercises)...anything you can do to improve muscle strength for your legs ...do
your horse if over 5 should be in a regular curb....everyone will be agast....but if she can't use one then you need to go back to basics....save your money on a chiro...and maybe ground drive her...working on softness of her mouth and listening to you....
the majority of riders ...go from a to z with not much in between...she needs to learn to listen and you need to learn how to give her one cue at a time.....

i believe you were working to stay in the camera shot...so i discount alot...there has been a lot said...so of course some of this has been covered...so please everyone do not take offense....
the idea that you must be relaxed is an important one....lunging is not a cure all...in fact if done improperly...can be harmful....
use lunging as a lesson in listening also...if you can't control her from the ground....then you need to approach lunging with little steps....
a horse and rider should communicate at all times....and your horse after training should be able to enter any ring and perform as asked....pleasure or barrels.....
the barrel horse will lose everytime to the horse that is in touch with it's rider...because they will shave time by working together....obviously...if the horses are matched evenly.....
you are a very consciencious girl and your horse is beautiful...you care deeply and are trying very hard to make good decisions for you and your horse.....and there is so much input and what to do....
is there somewhere you can go for an evaluation...from a judge or trainer in your area...and try to find the best.... someone with a good reputation....an eval may cost you ~50 to be watched while you ride....and see what they say....
you need more training and your horse needs more also....and i beleve that you know that already...nothing wrong with that...in fact...i think that shows a very determined and strong desire to find out what is best for you and your horse....do not think of barrels for a while.....
it is only natural to want to do what is fun now...but if you take the time for the essentials...anything you and your horse do will be a great working parnership ....i believe you will reach that goal.