From hackamore to bit.

[lacyloo]

Well... My mare has always been rode in a western hackamore.She was basically broke in a hackamore and I doubt she knows what a bit is. She has just started to really pull against the hackamore in rebellion.LOL I have started her on barrel training and its really hard to"pull" an 800 pound horse's head around the barrel. :rolleyes:

So "if" I were to get a bit,What would be an easy begginner bit that wont be over $50 :huh:
( and if your wondering I have rode horses with bits,so I know how to use them)

[Annasmom]

If she is "pulling" agaisnt the hackamore its more likely a direct result of you "pulling" on her.
horses will match your pressure.
If I were you I'd go back and make sure my hands are really steady
and that I'm using my seat bones , and my body to turn her.
With my mare in the arena with circle , serpentine , figure 8 pretty much without reins
reins as a last resort..
I'd say go back and make sure your body is telling her to turn
most likely her pulling against it is her trying to tell you that your pulling on her.

[WashingtonBay]

When you say hackamore, do you mean mechanical hackamore, or a bosal?

On edit... I guess I can almost see in your picture... it looks like one of the S shaped dealies - Do you have a closeup of her in the bridle that shows how it is fit and adjusted?

It's my guess that a hackamore is not necessarily the wrong tool. Hackamore is a good thing, especially in a rough and tumble sport like running barrels. You're not going to WANT a bit in her mouth necessarily. Not now, not while you're using quite a bit of rein. What you don't want is all the same pulling, just now on her mouth.

It could be that the hackamore could be better fit or adjusted to have more leverage. And the other key, as Annas said, will be softening your inputs and trying to eliminate all non-productive inputs so that your rein means something when she feels it, the request is clear, and she responds to it better.

In your picture, you've got a horse who is lunging forward, yet her rein is tight. Why? Did we want go, or did we want woah? Not clear. And looking at the rein, you've got nearly a straight line from your hand to the nose, so any leverage that bit might have available, is not there. That's an adjustment issue. You're basically riding in a halter, if that's the case. I'd like to see it close up.

[lacyloo]

This is a pic, when we first got her.
http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/lacy_94/browndog001.jpg


http://i167.photobucket.com/albums/u159/lacy_94/browndog003.jpg

[WashingtonBay]

ah - I see it. It's called a Beetle hackamore I think. Not my favorite, because of where the nose and chain are. I just don't like how they fit. I think you lower the whole show a notch on her nose and then tighten the chain a couple links... maybe two, it would make a big difference. But if you up the sensitivity on her face, then you have to make sure your inputs are fair, reasonable, and clear. :)

What you want, and you can test this from the ground, is the bridle adjusted so that the chain comes into play before the shank has used up all it's travel. Too much, and it will tighten too much on her face, cause pain and your horse will fight it. Too loose, which is what you have, and you have no advantage of leverage at all... Adjust it till it's just right: You get a good response with a light rein, without over-reacting.

[lacyloo]

Thanks guys, When I go ride later, I will loosen the hackamore up and My hands.Most of the time She gives me problems is when we walk near the barn.Kinda like barn sour but not as bad.She really pulls and will even try to fool you by walking sideways. :innocent:

[WashingtonBay]

Thanks guys, When I go ride later, I will loosen the hackamore up and My hands.

Just want to make sure we're clear on what needs done and what you mean by loosen. I think it should be lowered and tightened, myself.

[lacyloo]

I loosened the actual head stall, and then tightened the curb chain.

[WashingtonBay]

Gotcha. Let us know how that works out. :)

[Annasmom]

For barn sour start doing groundwork by the barn and gradual go away.
you should never be pulling on your horses mouth unless they didn't respond to something you already asked.
you'll have a horse with a dead mouth and an unhappy horse.

[TheBadLands]

You've got an awful lot of her face in your hands in your siggy pic... I have to agree with some that the issue is more that she is only matching you pull for pull.. if you rely on your seat for balance and security, it wont be an issue.

[Annasmom]

in your sig.. you have a almost vertical line from hand to bit. Also it looks like your sitting up on your crotch for lack of a better term. First off you need to tuck your pelvis under you so you have a straight heel-hip-head alignment. I'd agree with Badlands in saying that it does have to do with your seat.
With a much more secure seat you will rely a lot less on the reins

[lacyloo]

Well you get bucked off and see if you have the correct hand and seat position. :innocent: That pic was 3 months ago after we first got her and she spooked from the cat jumping on the truck,She reared up and lounged forward, totally knocking me forward and then she bolts and bucks: feet came out the stirrups and I went flying.

(and for anyone wondering...."yes I'm fully aware that I'm not wearing a helmet")
Now thankfully she has learn to spook in place.Much easier to deal with.

I did ride her today and she acted totally fine with the hackamore,since I adjusted it.Ill try to get pics tomorrow.

[Annasmom]

you don't have to be rude. You should always be open to improvement a good rider is one who never stops learning.

[lacyloo]

well....

[lacyloo]

Hmmm just wondering,I started this tread about bits.Yet NOBODY has said anything about bits. :huh:

[WashingtonBay]

Because sometimes the right answer is not necessarily the question you asked. :)

[TheBadLands]

You know.. everyone is trying to help. The problem is.. people ask a question then don't like the answer. I work and start horses every minute (It seems) I am not at my daily job. I ride horses in spanish curbed bits that would rival the harshest.. and I have soft.. easy.. supple horses.

We're trying to tell you the bit isn't the solution. It is you. I want what's best for both of you, end of story. If you want to ask, be prepared for answers.

[lacyloo]

(smacks self in face) I understand now. :cowboy:

[TheBadLands]

Don't slap yourself.. if you say you took WBs advice and adjusted and she did better, then that's great! ;)

Just try to start all over for a few days... at the walk even. Just ask her for whoa and demand it.. then at trot ... the at canter.. whoa before go.

Otherwise TRUST her in your hands.. let her have her head.. contact is meant for a request.. not balance.

I want to hear about you two winning on the barrels or whatever your heart desires.. not getting hurt.

[WashingtonBay]

FWIW on the bit question, I don't think anyone here would suggest you start a horse in anything other than a snaffle for a first bit. And a snaffle bit would be a lot milder, and a lot easier for her to pull on, than this hackamore is, properly adjusted... so if she can pull on you in the hack, she'd be no better in a snaffle.

So I'd say... properly adjusted hack... soft, meaningful hands. Flexing and circling exercises to improve your hands and seat and her responsiveness, and you'll do a lot better than if you try every bit in the world and change nothing about your riding.

[TheBadLands]

I'm going to add to what WB said..

you have to remember, as much as we coddle and love our horses, they're still horses. They sense and feel things we cannot. They want to please you but they will fight if they need to. When you put one in a situation where they feel restrained beyond their comfort zone they "flip out". All respond differently. But in the end your overall goal should be a horse who is happy to work.

you may have to teach her that riding is ok. Contact is ok. Everything is ok. Because it doesn't seem like she knows that.

You can love her, and I believe you do, but she needs a leader that she can follow without fear.

Try giving her her head....ride in a smaller area etc... where you feel safe..

If you NEED to stop, then you can one rein her with that hack you use. But I would let her lope out with no contact.. talk to her and use your upper leg and sit deep in your seat to show her to slow it up.

If a horse cannot W/T/C in both directions, serpentines, figure eights and whoa at all of those gaits.. they are not ready for gaming. A good gymkhana horse can barrel race on Saturday and trail ride on Sunday.

[twofingers]

well my two-cents probably isn't worth much, you are getting some very good advise. Having said that, the hack in the picture is pure crap - in my humble opinion. it hurts the horse. the rope over the nose and the leverage of the set up. personally I generally use a bosal and don't think that you ever really need a bit. You may want to get an English hackamore for what you want to do. it allows for more direct reining indefference to a western hack which is more for neck reining. it will also free your mind up to feel the rein going from your hand directly to the horses foot, the hack you have punishes- cuts off the air before it goes anywhere near the foot.
let me say I have nothing against bits- I just see no need for them as I do not know what they are for. almost everybody uses them and almost everybody rides better than me.

[mandisue]

For barrel racing as far as hackamores go a lot of people use a little S hackamore around here. I use a snaffle rope nose so I have the best of both worlds. But as everyone else said, start slow working her and get her responding, go from there. A bit wouldn't be bad for her to learn to use, I think it's beneficial, most people if you ever sell a horse want to know what's wrong with it if you only have ever rode it in a hack. I think its good if they'll ride in both. A snaffle bit will run you on average around here $20-$30. I start most of the young horses I ride in an O Ring Snaffle, and try not to use it too much, I like to go off my seat and legs more than the bit.

[lacyloo]

Thanks for the input guys.I'm kinda spinning my wheel with her I guess.

She is only 3 and still green...The only thing I "know" how to do is,walk ,trot ,canter.But I don't know how to "ask" her to do it like leg movements.Idk I can lope her but she will NOT lope for long and will go back down to a trot,then I ask her to lope(smooching and squeezing) She will toss her head or kick out.I don't have an arena to ride in,just a open,no feces field. (Really hard ground)
(IM THINKING ABOUT GETTING SOME VID'S AND LET YALL CRITQUE THEM).

But i'm gonna ride her today at a trot in the figure eight and work on her bending her head better. Ill talk to mom about getting another hackamore.

[mandisue]

well if she's still green I'd do a lot of getting her to respond before thinking about barrels. If you try to start her too soon on them you'll confuse her especially, if she can't hold a lope yet.

[lacyloo]

Just rode her for about an hour.She was really good.We trotted the figure eight for a long time then walked it and practised her WHOA.She did exellent in that...

So one of the last times I whoa'd her,She put her head down to graze, when I tried to "gently pull up her head" she of course,stepped in it and She.............
So I put her up. and braided her mane.

[twofingers]

sounds like your making headway.
a little off topic- are you active with these guys
Floridiansagainstnais@yahoogroups.com

[lacyloo]

No iv never heard of that site. and ohh whats head way?

[Kowgirlkate]

headway is another word for "progress" :) you could try using your signals from the ground also to get her soft and light

[TheBadLands]

You train a barrel horse like any good horse. All of mine worked in the arena and were stellar at all gaits. Could trail ride and had shown in other events BEFORE they ever saw a barrel. Then they only trotted and loped the pattern two or three times a week working on picking pockets, rating etc..

After all of that, you generally will exhibit a horse the first few runs. You aren't running for anything but to practice etc...

Then you go on to competing. Only actually "running" the pattern at home once before a show.

Otherwise you'll have a horse you can't do anything with but run barrels... and a horse who misbehaves in the gate.