I have had just about enough...

[HeartofSteel]

Well for the past few months Niko has been especially naughty. He sometimes (not everytime) will run around for no apparent reason when I go out to feed him. Sometimes he throws in a few bucks or kicks out but never close to me. I started working him everyday and that has seemed to help some but if I miss a day he will usually do it. When I first started working him a few weeks ago (after probably 3-4 weeks of not really being worked) he wa HORRIBLE! I asked him to walk on the lunge and he tried to take off bouncing and shaking his head. I took me a long time of doing very basic flexing, haunch turns, fore-hand turns, side-passing, ect.. before he would just walk. The next lesson wasn't much better, he was reacting at every little thing. I was dragging a rope in front of him and he would strike at it every so often. He has gotten alot better and will walk and everything perfectly and I have been riding him bareback with a halter and he has been perfect. But he still gets his running around thing once in a while and I have no idea why... the other day I went out to rake the sand by hand and he was following me for a while and then he just takes off and starts running laps! I just ingnored him but he just kept going, he would avoid where I was and go around me but just kept running. I finally got him to stop and tied him up because it was to slick for him to do that, he stood perfectly tied. He sometimes acts slightly aggressive but just like shaking his head and lip-ing my hand or something. I have corrected him for things like that and I honestly thinks my reaction to him makes it worse. If I ignore it or make him do something else very quickly it seems to be better other wise he overreacts. He didn't use to be like this at all, he was very non-dominant. He still is but gets grumpy faces or reacts if he doesn't do something and gets corrected for it. Like backing up for example, I ask him to back up by shaking the lead if he doesn't do it then I shake it harder or tap him on the chest which sometimes makes him get a very horrible face or stomp his foot. Its so frustrating and I have been doing everything for respect and he does respect my space he just has his little "fits" outside my space, but I don't find them very "cute" lol. He a 3 yr old (4 in May) gelding, he's probably bored which may be contributing to this also but I'm not sure.

[IrisGreen]

Sounds like he likes attention but not being corrected. Muffin is like this. He will parade around showing off his cone, bucking and being full of himself for attention. But, never at me or by me. He has came up shaking his head before, in a dominating or goofy way..don't know which but I immediately told him "ho" and made him back up out of my space. He didn't like it but he listened and got serious once he noticed I was not in the mood for his antics. He knows he can goof off when he's lose but he had better not do it around me or when I'm working with him.

Muffin is the worst if I tell him to "get". He does what Niko does and parades around trying to get attention. He would rather be right next to me then me tell him to go away. It upsets him that I don't want him around because I am busy so he shows off and has a little fit.

It's there personality. You can't control every move they make especially when there excited and lose. But, you can control how close they get to you and what they are allowed to do in your presence.

I would lunge him more, for respect. If he starts running around and getting dominant with you hook a line on him and show him that his high energy and being disrespectful gets him worked in a serious way.

I had to do this with Muffin when I was picking up his back feet for treatment. He would pull them from me just because he could and thought it was funny. He wouldn't kick at me because he knows what that would get him, so he would just pull his hoof and put it down because he knew he could. Even after I slapped him on the butt for it he continued and would turn and look at me when he did it (by turn and look I mean he didn't move his feet, he just bent his head around and looked at me like "ha ha, I pulled my foot from you"). :rolleyes: He was just being defiant and making me fuss over him. He didn't think it was fun anymore when I would lunge him every time he pulled his hoof. He got over that quick and learned he had better listen and stop playing games. I may not win with strength but I will get my point across with intelligence and out smarting him. :)

Is Niko pushy with food? Can you make him back halterless? It sounds like you just need to convince him you won't tolerate his games and he needs to be more respectful if he wants to be in your space.

Edit: also how old is he?

[HeartofSteel]

I would lunge him more, for respect. If he starts running around and getting dominant with you hook a line on him and show him that his high energy and being disrespectful gets him worked in a serious way.

Edit: also how old is he?

I do lunge him almost everyday. He is usually really good on the lunge, he never bucks or and when he is on the lunge. I think it is about attention, that makes alot of sense! Thank you IrisGreen :)
He is 3 yrs old, will be 4 in may. He isn't pushy around food, I make him back up if he gets in my "space" when I feed him. He isn't allowed to eat the hay out of my arms when I am carrying it, he can follow at a decent length. I can back him up, do haunch turns, forhand turns and side pass him on the ground without a halter. Walk, trot and whoa off lead also.

[IrisGreen]

Yeah, Then it's just the attention thing :) That's what Muffins problem is. He's not mean or pushy he's just goofy and wants attention and doesn't like to be out casted or not the focus of your attention.

He loves showing off and does it all the time for my dogs!! It's the funniest thing (and very annoying), he runs back and forth across the front of his pen so my dogs in the back yard can see him. He carrys his cone straight up in the air and trots back and forth showing it off to the dogs. Of course the dogs get into a barking fit as he is getting them all juiced up. Then I of course open a window and yell at the dogs for barking up a storm. So, he has figured out he can get the dogs into trouble by prancing around with his cone in the air:innocent:.

I just make sure Muffin knows I am not one to goof around with. I give him attention but he has to be on good behavior or I walk away and he doesn't like that. Or if he did something that required discipline then he gets it, then I go back to calm attention. He learned it's best to be on my good side if he wants me to stick around and I prefer him calm.

Also, when you lunge him try to make sure it's a training exercise too. Make sure he does his walk, trot on command and stops. I always make Muffin start in a walk, never a trot. But, if hes juiced up and wont walk then I get on to him and make him go faster then he wanted too for 2 laps or so as a punishment, then I stop him let him stand for a second and ask for a walk again calmly. This gets his attention and gets him in the right mind to listen to commands because he hates getting into trouble and me having to get onto him.

There emotional, so you have to find ways to make that work for you. With Muffin it's not giving him attention when he is bad or getting on to him if he was out of line but immediately afterwords asking for a stop and letting him calm down and think about what just happened. Letting him rest calmly with your full attention on him is the reward and lots of praise for being calm. :)

Emotional babys...they are. lol

[HeartofSteel]

This also would explain why he never does anything out of order undersaddle.

[Cat]

Sounds like the fun I had with Drifter yesterday! He is also a 3 going on 4 year old and he has been stalled more than normal. We are building his weight back up after he had that bacterial infection and lost the weight. So he has been stalled and is getting more calories than he is used to in feed & corn oil.

Now Drifter is a perfect gentleman on the lead and isn't pushy and disrespectful when I move him from stall to pasture and such. However, yesterday I had him in a longer rope so I could get some photos of him to show his improvements. He is standing there and I am off to his side and the rope draped over my arm and my focus was on getting the camera ready. We've done this before and he usually stands just fine.

Out of the blue he snorts and bucks. He bucked a bit side-ways (didn't see the beginning to fully understand how he did this) but his buck ended up with him landing side-ways on the ground and rolling all the way over - complete with his feet kicking straight up in the air like he thought he was running in the sky! Thankfully he was un-injured, just mega hyped!

I am pretty sure the extra calories, more stall time (he does get turn-out every day, just not the 24/7 he used to have), and the fact I wasn't focused on him prompted it.

So I lunged him a bit and it took a while to get his young mind back focused, but soon he was doing pretty walk-trot-canter tansitions. So I guess we are going to be doing a lot more groundwork in the future before he leaves in Feb. for his new home.

Sounds like it could be a similar thing with Niko.

[IrisGreen]

Yep :) He's happy because he has your full attention and you are working together. When he is being a goof he gets attention, it's just bad attention but he doesn't care what kind as long as he is getting it. You just have to make the bad attention not worth it so he stops doing things to get it and focuses on doing good things for good attention.

Does he get jealous at all? If you are messing with another horse? Muffin will insist on standing between me and the other horse like he is guarding me or hording me. He doesn't get let out with other horses and in the past when we did take him to a friends and let him run with her horses he came back running to me. lol

He's not that socialized around other horses but he likes when they visit him. He trys to make friends and isn't mean but he doesn't want them close to me. He stays locked in his pen but he will stick his head out between me and the other horse like he is blocking or maybe he feels like I can protect him...I have no idea what's going on in his head but he does seem to get protective of me and wants me by him or on the other side.

If I pet the other horse he watches then start showing off or calling me over to him. Then he's fine again and can sniff and nuzzle the other horse as long as I am in a place he feels I'm safe... We are going to have to work on this when he goes in for training and is around other horses more often. I don't think he realizes hes a horse? lol:rolleyes:

[IrisGreen]

Sorry, Cat. I didn't see your post. WoW, How did he manage a twisting buck out of no where? Guess he did just up and spunk out. Thank goodness he wasn't hurt or you. I bet it did have to do with you focusing on the camera and not him Plus the extra energy. I never realized horses were so emotional until I got Muffin. They sure have there personality's and they have ways of showing you or getting your attention!. lol

[Cat]

Yeah - its probably the freakiest thing I've seen, especially when he looked to be about a sleep before hand! If it was the summer I would been looking for a bee sting or something.

[JackieB]

Is he perhaps just young and energetic? Are there other horses in with him so that he can just do horsey stuff when you aren't around? I think this type of thing is why people were advising me to get an older horse for my first horse (Buster was 13 when I got him). I've never had a young horse or worked with them, but I think my experienced horse friends said that this is just normal behavior for a youngster, but not the best for a new horse owner like me.

His behavior kind of reminds me of when I was at the dinner table as a kid. I had to sit there and be polite during dinner, but then I could bolt out of there and go play. They didn't expect me to sit while the grown-ups drank their coffee. He seems to be respectful within your space and under your control, but is whooping it up when he feels free to do so.

I don't know, perhaps I'm wrong. But this is what it looks like to me.

[luvs2ride1979]

I would like to know exactly what you're feeding him, hay, grain/pellets, supplements, and how much of each. Have you switched feeds recently? Have you recently gotten a new shipment of hay?

Also, has his turnout routine changed? Is he inside more than usual? Have any buddies left? Does have have any new buddies?

Are you riding him? If so, how long have you had that saddle for him? When was the last time you really looked at the fit on him?

[HeartofSteel]

I would like to know exactly what you're feeding him, hay, grain/pellets, supplements, and how much of each. Have you switched feeds recently? Have you recently gotten a new shipment of hay?

Also, has his turnout routine changed? Is he inside more than usual? Have any buddies left? Does have have any new buddies?

Are you riding him? If so, how long have you had that saddle for him? When was the last time you really looked at the fit on him?

He gets 2 flakes in the morning and two at night, he gets 1/2 cup of low sugar/lowcarb LMF grain in the morning only with Horseguard supplement (2 oz. I think) and 1/2-1 cup Glanzen or Omega horseshine. I haven't switched feeds at all, he has been on the same feed since I got him in June. No new hay either same hay since June also.

He is turned out 24/7, no stall whatsoever. No buddies left or new buddies.

I just started riding him again last week bareback and then with the saddle this week. He acted like this before I even started riding again (I hadn't ridden him for 3-4 weeks). I have had the saddle since.... probably August. He does not act like this under saddle or bareback though. I check the fit of the saddle everytime I put it on his back and then when I get done riding I do the pressure point test on his neck, back and hind end, my Chiro showed me how to do it.

[mandisue]

If he's not in with other horses, then I agree with Jackie, I have a mare who will be two in April and she's fine when under rope but when loose and i go in with her it's like HEY A PLAYMATE YAY!!!! LETS BUCK KICK AND REAR! She's by herself so I have to tell her I'm not another horse to play with.

[TheBadLands]

I am going to respond to this as if you were a client calling me. PLEASE don't take offense. I think he is darling and I respect you very much.

I read through it and here are my thoughts on the whole situation.

1) He is 3. If he is running and playing, even if you're in his area, while you are not expecting anything of him... it's ok. If he respects your space, and has some steam to let off.. he's a horse. As long as he remains easy to catch, and in your hands he has manners, that is all that matters. A horse is a horse...of course of course.

2) I think you're asking a LOT of him under saddle. Even though I went on to western riding, I still keep dressage mentality. A horse must be physically and mentally mature before excessive lateral work and backing come in to play. You may say "But you started Dena a week ago and she's doing it".... But Dena is 7. Not 3. I'm assuming by your screen name that you are a dressage enthusiast. A 3 year old should be working at a walk and trot on Serpentines and other patterns. And if you choose to lope/canter him, he should be working on his balance. I fear 99% of your issues are over stimulation on his developing mind.

3) On the ground... If you are working him, he needs to listen. I start mine with 15 minutes of trotting in the round pen or on the line.... no stopping. With lots of change of direction and no breaks. Then I ask them to come to me.. then back, turn on the forhand, haunches, etc....
If he KNOWS how to back on the ground... and does not respond immediatley and accordingly, you need to move him out again... start all over. Gallop him, change direction... show him who runs the show. Then ask again.

There is no use fighting something that outweighs us three times or more over.... you have to win with whit.. Not brawn.

[vicklynn]

See, I just put it done as JackieBs question. Is he just young and energetic?

When I go out to pasture, Myst is very calm, but City, what the freak, he runs, kicks up, and if the gate between the horses is open, he pushes Myst to play. If he forgets where I am at, I get the crop and let him know Im there. He gets all ears back in attention, yes back, that is how I know he is paying attention.
If he gets really stupid, I get the lunge whip, make him work it out, then work his ground manners.
This time of yr is harder on him, so hes more playful, and yes, sometimes trying.
Hes just coming 6 this yr.

I hope that is all that is going on. Youngens can be trying.

[HeartofSteel]

2) I think you're asking a LOT of him under saddle. Even though I went on to western riding, I still keep dressage mentality. A horse must be physically and mentally mature before excessive lateral work and backing come in to play. You may say "But you started Dena a week ago and she's doing it".... But Dena is 7. Not 3. I'm assuming by your screen name that you are a dressage enthusiast. A 3 year old should be working at a walk and trot on Serpentines and other patterns. And if you choose to lope/canter him, he should be working on his balance. I fear 99% of your issues are over stimulation on his developing mind.



I don't think I said what I was doing under saddle so i'm not sure what you mean by a LOT. I don't do excessive lateral work or backing. We work walk, trot, some pattern and transitions between walk, trot and halt... we have hardly cantered at all, maybe 5 times. I don't push him at all. Could you please tell me where you got the idea that I ask him a LOT?


3) On the ground... If you are working him, he needs to listen. I start mine with 15 minutes of trotting in the round pen or on the line.... no stopping. With lots of change of direction and no breaks. Then I ask them to come to me.. then back, turn on the forhand, haunches, etc....
If he KNOWS how to back on the ground... and does not respond immediatley and accordingly, you need to move him out again... start all over. Gallop him, change direction... show him who runs the show. Then ask again.


He listens on the ground, if he gets distracted then I nicely get his attention back on me. I don't like trotting 15 min straight in a circle when he is only 3, thats to much un-necessary stress on his legs. We do more transitions between walk and trot on the lunge and yielding hindquarters. I'm not sure why your telling me to Gallop him now... I may be completely misunderstanding but you said I was over working him under saddle but you want me to Gallop him in a round pen?

[HeartofSteel]

Thanks Vicklynn, aren't babies fun ;)

[zoel_222]

Sorry about Niko's naughty-ness lately. :(

TheBadLands, Alissa is doing a great job with Niko. She is no way, shape or form pushing him. They're taking it good and slow. I think his little "attitude" lately is just a phase. I really don't see how you can say she is pushing him and then tell her to make a 3 year old trot in a circle for 15 minutes straight and GALLOP him.

[Cat]

I'm not a fan of endless circles - just enough to get their attention when needed. Sometimes its only a couple laps at a nice trot (maybe nothing at all if we jump in with other stuff and they have their full attention on me), while others it may be longer. I never ask for a gallop either, though when they are being bratty they sometimes provide it. Then sure - I let them, but I make it clear to them that I am the one controlling the feet. Adjust the method for the horse you have in front of you that day.

This is probably a phase with Niko. You will have several of those and each phase will be a bit different as he matures. Toby tested me at times beyond belief. Infinite amounts of patience and persistance are needed.

[ImaBronsonBear]

IMO, JackieB is right. He's young, he doesn't have anyone to play with, and he's looking for a way to get rid of some energy - and you're the excuse to do that. As long as he's not in your space, just let him get the energy out.

[luvs2ride1979]

Sounds like he's just a young punk then, lol. I think that putting him in with an older alpha mare might be a nice idea, lol. He should have some kind of playmate though, so he can "be a horse" with another horse.

When he's around you, and he wants to buck and carry on, you need to chase him away. Bring a driving or lung whip with you if you need to (I like driving whips). Just keep him off of you until he behaves. Then approach with the whip pointed behind you. Say "GOOD BOY" and give him a treat if he stands nicely and behaves. If he doesn't chase him off again.

When the halter goes on, it's all business. Be VERY consistent on what behavior you allow and don't allow. You only want 100% perfect behavior. Anything else is not tolerated. Use whatever punishment works best, whatever gets your point across with the least amount of "force." Force can be verbal and/or physical force. You need to show him in some way what behaviors are not tolerated. Use treats and "good boy" when he is behaving well. You want to use both, so he'll more quickly understand what's "right" and what's "wrong."

I am a BIG fan of food rewards. They work well, and it gives you another thing to "train" on: taking the treat nicely and with respect.

But in all reality, he just needs another year or four of consistent work and maturing, then he'll settle down and behave. ;)

[TheBadLands]

Half Passing: I think I made you mad, even though I tried really hard not to. So I am sorry.

From what I read, and maybe I misread it.. although I just went back with a fresh mind (worked a LONG day yesterday) and read it again. If he's getting "pissy" when you're asking him for things like turns on the haunches/forhand etc under saddle.. he could be telling you he really isn't "getting" it. I think I read it as if you're already asking him for that kind of work under saddle. And if you're not, then I apologize.

As for the ground work. If you are not familiar with how I work horses then I guess that didn't make much sense. I threw gallop in there as an example. And it was meant as a few strides, then make him change direction. Basically I was saying that you ask for something in the round pen (or on the line) and they don't do it.. you make them move their feet and think about who is the boss. Then bring them back to you and ask again.

Moving a horse in and out of your space is how you assert dominance. And it's a language they best understand.

As for the concept that a total of 15 minutes trotting is hard on his joints, that's all opinion. 15 minutes (not on each side) of working on the line at a trot on a 20 (or more) meter circle is not going to hurt him.

All in all I just gave you my advice. It might not work for you, or even make sense for you. And we don't have to agree.

But I gave my advice based on what has obviously worked for me for years and years. So it's all I know. And I wasn't opening an attack door. So if you felt that way, then again, I am sorry.