Sour Mouthed?

[Jump The Moon]

Just a curiosity, I heard a lady talk about how her horse got sour because she used to wiggle her reins too-and-frow (thus swaying his head from side to side) trying to get him on the bit. Does this happen? Lol, I feel so dumb, I just never heard that term before.

ALSO

Billy's started hanging on my left rein in trot - walk outline = easy and lovely trot = he throws his head up higher and holds my left rein, alot:huh: he comes off if I give and take, leg yield off that rein and trot on a circle but we have our first ever dressage show on sunday! I was wondering, when my sister rode him he trying to go on the bit for her, she yanked him one thinking he was being naughty - this 'problem' started after that - do you think it's related?

[vicklynn]

You can sour a horses mouth. My ex husband did that once. I told him to never get on one of my F*#)#&@ horses again. Took me and a trainer a month and a half to get him back to where he was.
Even rein, western or english is very important.
If someone sat there and kept tugging at me about something, Id get an attitude too, even if it only showed in a minor way. Think about it that way. How do you think your horse feels by having its mouth tugged at. My husband does that at times, and I get all over his stuff. I taught her to get off the bit, I dont need someone pulling or nagging on her.
Sorry, a pet peeve of mine...lol

[cloedoll]

I call that 'see-sawing,' but I don't know correct terms. Meh, I personally don't like that technique because I think it's almost like a short cut and mostly gives the illusion your horse is collected, but really, they're head just looks like it and they're really not collected. AND I've seen a lot of horses not like it, so yeah, maybe when they're showing resistance to that 'technique' it could be called sour mouthed? I really dunno, lol.

As far as Billy, have you had his teeth checked lately? I am guessing he is just anticipating you are going to do what your sister did..

[Jump The Moon]

Yep, his teeth are fine - I think it is him thinking 'oh god i'm gonna be pulled again' it's a shame - i've worked so hard getting him on the bit *nicely* through flexion etc. and i was so peeved when she yanked him and booted him one.

[vicklynn]

Ive had 2 people ride my mare, and one other person on my gelding. They dont ride like I do, and they will not be on them again. If they dont listen, then they dont need to be on their backs. I would tell you sister that she cant ride your horse, cause it effects his training. Tough love, but you dont want your horse soured or ruined by other riders.

[jeezitsjacki]

I call it see-sawing too. As cloe said, it is basically like a short cut to get a horse to collect. They are not using their back muscles or anything when you see saw, its just their head being bent in a weird way, so no it doesnt look as good, and its irratating for the horse. To achieve good collection you need to use your inside reign slightly with your outside reign firm and steady, while also using your seat and legs. This will make the horse not only look better, but use more muscles and be better for the horse

[ImaBronsonBear]

As to the sour-mouthed thing, i agree with everyone else - see-sawing can definitely do that.

About Billy, yeah they are probably closely connected. Think about it - Billy was just trying to do what was right and what you had taught him, and then another rider gets on and punishes him for doing what (he thought) he was supposed to do! When anyone else rides my horses, unless i know them well and know they're going to have good hands, i put them in a sidepull. That way my horse's mouth stays the way i want it. If Billy goes well in a sidepull, i would definitely go with one whenever your sister rode.

[KittySawrus]

I agree that over-seesawing can put a horse sour-mouthed (saw it happen >_<)

But it doesn't mean see-sawing is an incorrect method (which I think is an idea that is being falsely created here).

At Ivesley, when I first started learning to collect on Boris, I was taught the see-sawing method. We stood in the centre and my instructor twiddled the reins to bend him into a contact, and he rearranged his stance to put himself in alignment (he's a very smart boy and is the only horse who'll do it standing).

I was taught to make the horse work uphill first, half-halt for impulsion, then twitch both of the reins as if they were on elastic (note, amount of force depends on horse - Gerry has such a long neck he needs lots of persuasion, whereas Boris throws his head up and becomes a mule if you pull too hard). The sign of the horse going into collection is their trot becoming bouncier and, for me, I suppose, their head swaying from side to side. In Boris' case, he drops his head a little, he's "thinking about it". If I'm persistant with my leg and rein together, he eventually tucks his nose in and, as my instructor described it, becomes "poetry in motion"

I just wanted to perhaps dispel the thought that seesawing is totally evil...hope I'm not coming across hostile.

Sorry for the long post o.0 I guess I just got peeved by the accusation.

[vicklynn]

I agree that over-seesawing can put a horse sour-mouthed (saw it happen >_<)

But it doesn't mean see-sawing is an incorrect method (which I think is an idea that is being falsely created here).

Seesawing is incorrect no matter how its used.

You may use the term seesawing in what your doing, but I hear you saying half halt, a twitch, even pulling, is not seesawing. I dont hear you saying anything you are doing is seesawing. Seesawing is pulling the reins back and forth in a continual movement, which can mess a horse up. I dont even teach my horse to back by seesawing like alot of people do. Constant pressure will get a step back, and a released rein will teach the horse that when the bit it touched in a backing motion, that the horse will back. Also ground work helps with backing. I do not like seesawing on a horse, ever. I wouldnt like something in my mouth pulled side to side, Im sure Id get the message if someone put something in there and said back, or what ever, Id get it.

Not all instructors are right.

[KittySawrus]

Seesawing is incorrect no matter how its used.

You may use the term seesawing in what your doing, but I hear you saying half halt, a twitch, even pulling, is not seesawing. I dont hear you saying anything you are doing is seesawing. Seesawing is pulling the reins back and forth in a continual movement, which can mess a horse up. I dont even teach my horse to back by seesawing like alot of people do. Constant pressure will get a step back, and a released rein will teach the horse that when the bit it touched in a backing motion, that the horse will back. Also ground work helps with backing. I do not like seesawing on a horse, ever. I wouldnt like something in my mouth pulled side to side, Im sure Id get the message if someone put something in there and said back, or what ever, Id get it.

Not all instructors are right.

:eek: that is what I've been taught to do, by my last three instructors - getting them forwards, half-halting to bring their quarters beneath them, then using both reins in a half-halt motion until their poll is the highest point on their arch, then easing off the rein pressure and only...well, seesawing again if they bring their heads back up.

How do you do it? Collect, I mean?

[vicklynn]

Half halting is not seesawing. Half halting is a good thing.

[jeezitsjacki]

ya you are just getting your words confused Kitty. Half halting is what you want to do. See sawing is when you move your hands back and forth on the horses mouth... very uncomfortable

[KittySawrus]

Oh...OK...*phew*
thanks for clearing that one up for me :)

I think I can now visualise what you mean.

[Jump The Moon]

I'd love to say she couldn't ride him if she was going to do that - but, technically I MUST share him with her if she wants. So, that means she can do it if she wants :(

[KittySawrus]

You share him with your siblings, don't you? Why don't you try to tell your parents what consequences her riding's having? Or at least, if you can't explain the situation to her, try talking to her through your parents so that she'll try to ride a little softer.
I mean, she won't want to hurt Billy, will she?

[vicklynn]

ditto