What do you use to sack out?

[PatriotsDreamer]

Since we all know Dreamer is going through a BOOT CAMP FROM HELL, im looking for good things to sack him out to. I want to sack him out to anything and everything i can think he may possibly be afraid or jump from. Anyone got some ideas? what do you despook your horses from and what are some things most people wouldnt think of? any ideas or comments welcome and appriciated.:)

[TheRedHayflinger]

things I've used in the past

-grocery sacks
-milk jugs with a few pebbles tossed in to rattle
-tarps
-beach balls/decent sized rubber balls
-bags with popcans in them
-my cell phone ringer (hey..if I happen to be riding and forget to set it to silent..i don't want to eat dirt or go for a speedy ride..lol)
-helium filled balloons
-one of those singing fish (you know...the kind that odd people buy and hang on their wall and you press a button and it sings..lol--we actually had the whole collection of them in the barn office at college and when we were looking for things to make noise for our colt training horses, we borrowed a few of these)

that's all I can remember offhand...

[alittleoffkey]

In addition to TRH's great ideas:

-Drop, rip and flap phone books around him.
-Let the air out of some balloons (popping them spooks me so I wouldn't necessarily pop them, just make a fart noises :D).
-Get some kids to run around and play (a safe distance from him). Lots of horses are scared of little kids and the sudden, sharp noises they make.
-Coke can with pennies in it.

If there's anything he reacts really strongly to, give him a treat for being a little better about that sound/action... then he'll associate that 'very scary' thing with something delicious. :D

[luckydoublesranch]

He's some odd ones out of the "norm" we've used before....

~Me...jumping and flapping my arms and making crazy noises like a complete idiot!! LOL! :crazy:
~Chinese Firecrackers (The little ones all on a string together)...we used them to desensitize before parades, or when we know mounting shooting will be going on at an event. I'll hold the horse on a 12" line and have someone do the "lighting". We don't set the all off at once, just untie one at a time and set it off first from far away and slowly work our way closer. They don't make a big enough bang to need earplugs and there's LOTS of them of a strip. Obviously NOT for kids and please don't hurt yourself!! LOL!
~If we've had horses REALLY afraid of tarps, etc. We've set up one of those little picnic canopies over their feed. It doesn't take long at all and they go right in.
~We drag logs, tarps, pallets, anything you can type a lariat to!
~One of those mylar ribbon sticks that you can get at the carnivals and the circus for kids
~My camera flash! I didn't realize until trying to take pictures at night that it was SCAAARRRY!! :rolleyes:
~We drive the go-cart in the pasture all of time! LOL!

I'm sure I'll think of more Weird ones!!

[Country Girl 43]

oooo Lucky I LIKE some of your suggestions! I'm going to the store tomorrow!!!

[vicklynn]

Sounds like some great ideas.
Id like to sack my horses out, but they look at me like Im stupid when I try to. Then they want to eat the object in my hand.

[Gem's Mom]

When we put a new mattress in our trailer we left the old one out on the ground for a while. Everyone used it to get the horses to step on, over and stand on. Fun times.

I can't think of anything else in particular...

[ImaBronsonBear]

Oh gosh, i just went through the exact same thing with Bronson.:D He was in boot camp for two weeks, and he definitely shaped up. Not sure how many of these have been mentioned before, but this is what i used:

- tarp, flapping all over, dragged, "chasing" him, everything
- plastic bags
- ropes (he's scared of ropes, so we worked on that)
- umbrella, opening and closing
- Me jumping and dancing around like an idiot (he was pretty leery)
- Getting my dog to race around underneath his heels (he'd been spooking at her even though he knew he shouldn't have)
- Having a friend run towards me with arms waving and screaming "i wanna pet the horsie!"
- having someone pop out from behind a pole and begin dancing and yelling just as i trotted past
- having someone jump out from behind a trailer and try to scare Bronson

And by the end of all of that, Bronson just looked at whatever it was with a bored and long-suffering expression thinking to himself "what next?" :D

[TheRedHayflinger]

if you are feeling really brave, you could always find a few people from the local high school band to come out and play trumpets, tubas, trombones..anything brass really....drums...haha
or if you know someone who shoots guns...have them practice nearby (but safely). I worked at a camp and we had a mountain man program there and I was friends with several of the guys that ran it....they shot black powder muzzleloaders and black powder handguns...they'd fill them with blanks and let me shoot when I rode down there....got to the point I could sit up on my SSH mare, drop the reins and shoot one off her back....dang those things are loud

[Dixie]

Oh my....lets see what I can remember that I personally do....

I have an old gunny sack on a 25ft piece of small rope. I use that to toss everywhere and anywhere, drag it over them, under them, behind them, over the face, between the legs...yep everywhere.

Storm was afraid of grocery bags so I cut one into strips and tied them to the end of a buggy whip. I used that all over his body, on the ground, in the air...Then moved onto a whole bag, stuck a treat in it and he'll eat out of one now. Now when one blows across the pasture? He chases it down and plays with them.

Since I am the queen of clumsy I also practice falling down, jumping around flapping my arms etc. Yep, I fell down once for no reason lunging Storm and he bolted. While I'm being dragged around the pasture I was thinking 'should I let go, or hang on' Who does that? ROFL

Umbrella's is another big thing I use. I start with one either on the fence or the ground in the area I'm working(open of course) and get them to face it and walk up to it. Then I move on to picking it up and having it around them. Next comes opening it up while they are on a lead rope near me. First I open it away from them, then facing them.

Balls of all sorts, coming at them, on them etc.

Walking on tarps, sheets of plywood etc.

Pool noodles make great things to use for desensitizing. You can use them all over their body, have them walk through a bunch on the ground, hang them up and have them walk through etc.

Noise makers are great. I clap, yell, holler, use some of the kids toys. LOL

Jackets that are noisy, you know the nylon type? Yep use that just like I do the gunny sack. All over everywhere on the horse.

Dragging anything and everything. Large garbage bags, tarps, logs....even doing this without me on them. I'll saddle them up and use my lariat and they drag stuff while I am leading them.

My mind is fuzzy from a cold so if that didnt' make sense I apologize and I might add more later.

[TheRedHayflinger]

Dixie saying jackets that are noisy reminded me of another thing I've used....those cheap plastic rain ponchos! I've seen so many horses bolt (and buck and rear sometimes...usually chucking the rider) when their rider pulls one out of their pocket to put one when it starts to rain on a trail ride.

[PatriotsDreamer]

Thanks! keep the ideas comming... im going to make a list of things to do!

[Kowgirlkate]

A fishing pole with a weight and a plastic bag on the end of the line. cast it everywhere and let him see it move. :)
A bag of pop cans tied to his saddle ( assuming he's already broke and desensitized)
cap guns

[Kowgirlkate]

bright ribbons tied to a stick
bubble wrap ( to mimic firecrackers)
play a Halloween cd in his barn- the weird noises on it are better than just plain songs.
This one is more for green 'wilderness' horses or horses going out in rough country, but using a bottle of deer, elk, whatever, scent and rubbing it on his nose if he's never encountered such. (this was suggested by ppl taking green horses to the mountains camping) I've also heard of hunters rubbing a bit of blood on thier horse's nose so they wouldnt panic carrying the meat.
a campfire to desensitise him to smoke

[livaward]

Also things like a leaf blower.....

Everyone is giving great ideas.......I have started Jorie with theses things and love hearing the things I haven't thought of.

[cloedoll]

So I was going to give you some suggestions, but it seems all of mine have already been mentioned, lol. xD

[IrisGreen]

Big Paper feed bags and card board boxes.

Bells, I have a set of big sleigh bells on a thick leather strap. For attaching to a harness during Christmas season. Those can be scary!! Once he's used to them hang a few off the chest buckle on his blanket. So he hears them with every step he takes. You can get cheap jingle bells at the dollar store or craft store and use those just watch to make sure he doesn't pull one off and try to eat it.

Car horns, alarms, engine revving, Lawn equipment and motorcycles.

Bicycles, Ride a bike around him or have someone ride one with you on a trail ride. The horse thinks your riding some kind of weird animal at first! lol

[TheRedHayflinger]

you wouldn't think it, but bikes are scary horse eating monsters that have no mercy :D
I worked at a BSA Camp for 4 summers teaching horsemanship...they also had a high adventure area with a climbing tower and mountain bikes....we were coming back from a trail ride and had to pass by this place. I was tailing the group going down the driveway when I heard people behind us. I glanced over my shoulder and seen a group of mountain bikers coming back. I turned around and help up my hand in the universal "STOP" sign. Sadly, they didn't listen to me and ignored me.....they ZOOOOOOMED by us. My mare I was riding was as bombproof as they came--she reared up and bolted, just as all the other horses decided to either rear, buck, bolt or combinations of all three. They had VERY new riders on them that had just learned the basics of walking and steering earlier that week and they were doing so great and we had fabulous trail horses that we were treating them to an easy trail ride to let them use their skills. By some miracle, they ALL stayed on and got their horses under control and did their emergency dismounts...one of my wranglers did fall off, and as we were on the rock/gravel driveway, she landed hard and did bust her helmet and we had to take her to the ER. The scouts were great about it all...they walked their horses back to the barn and untacked under the supervision of my other wrangler who had stayed back at the barn. One scout took my injured wranglers horse back while I rode back to get help and an older scout in the group stayed with my wrangler to make sure she didn't move and get hurt worse.
After that day, I had a friend from the High Adventure area come down with a few scouts and mountain bikes and we started to have them ride around the horses and make sure they were used to them. The staff that had ignored my "STOP" ended up getting fired as he knew better and even admitted he seen be put my hand up and even yell out STOP, and he just chose to ignore it.
In no way did we blame the horses...all seemed very bombproof and most ignored many things--turkeys flying up in front of their noses on the trail, golfcarts zipping around, deer bounding out in the trail, young kids running around, guns going off, etc....but a silent, quick mountain bike zipping by them from behind scared the bejeebies out of every single one! And that evening that same group of scouts came back out to the barn and hopped right back on and continued learning :D

[menagerie]

Wow theres alot of great ideas here. Glad this thread was started!

[missyfritz]

hula hoops, flags, those plastic windmill things, party horns

[gaited07]

There are a lot of great ideas here.

I would like to add that what ever you choose to despook you horse with, take it slow and make sure the horse is comfortable before advancing to another object.

As for different things, just look around your house and I'm sure you will come up with some more ideas.
I have some good despooking videos on youtube. You can research my thread "I have a wonderful son and Husband" and that will bring you to my videos or search, Gaited07.

Remember to take it slow.

[YAorNEIGH]

The best thing I ever used (on my psycho TB stud colt from last semester :D) was an empty feed sack. You roll and tape up one end of it so that it makes a sort of handle and then cut the opposite end into strips. Then you can hold the handle to sack out from head to hoof. This gives you a variety of sensations and sounds too, from lightly smacking to brushing the tips against him. Plus, it smells like yummy feed, so they warm up to it and calm a bit more quickly, I've found :)

[Ryderd65]

Measuring tapes.

Apparently, my retired-forestry-service-BTDT- Sarge had never seen one before I tried to measure him.

He freaked.

Firecrackers to desensitize to 4th of July and gunshots, and umbrellas. ATV's, jingling car keys, car horns, goats and pigs too.

[PatriotsDreamer]

keep them comming!

[SuperSTB]

Why do you need to desensitize your horse to a bunch of misc. crap???

I never understood this.

You can't possibly desensitize a horse to everything? The best way is to work on creating a strong bond of trust between you and your horse. Work on improving the communication between you and your horse.

A horse that trusts it's rider/handler, A horse that understands what you are asking of him, a horse that is confident in what is being asked of him, and a horse that is willing to respond to the rider/handler- that is a horse you want to develop. Throwing a bunch of bags, tarps, umbrellas, firecrackers, etc is not going to develop that trusting relationship.

[PatriotsDreamer]

Why do you need to desensitize your horse to a bunch of misc. crap???

I never understood this.

You can't possibly desensitize a horse to everything? The best way is to work on creating a strong bond of trust between you and your horse. Work on improving the communication between you and your horse.

A horse that trusts it's rider/handler, A horse that understands what you are asking of him, a horse that is confident in what is being asked of him, and a horse that is willing to respond to the rider/handler- that is a horse you want to develop. Throwing a bunch of bags, tarps, umbrellas, firecrackers, etc is not going to develop that trusting relationship.
it will (and hason many horses) developed and does develop a trusting relationship. They are flight animals and need to learn to alter that attitude.the horse learns that no matter what is around him,you are not going to put the horse in a situation where he is going to get hurt. im going to assume that you dont trail ride? do you? Desensatizing at the barn can help out on the trail. If you desenatize a horse to bags, plastic bottle crinkling, cans crushing, if a bag blows or get caught in a tree, or if he steps on a bottle or can, he will already know its not going to hurt him and possibly wont even jump sideways where there might be tree waiting. If someone walks down the street with an umbrella or rides a bike passed you, he wont spook or even think twice about it rather than possibly swaying sideways into traffic. if theres a unknown hunter in the woods that sets off a gun shot or teenagers setting off firecrackers at the camp ground he wont spook because he has been exposed to it already. The horse not only learns to trust you more but learns to trust the objects around him and the people around him.I hope that helps you understand a bit why we desensatize our horses.

[Palogal]

A rain coat! I didn't mean to use it but I ended up using it one day...when it was drizzling out. :) SSTB has a point though. You can't desensitize him to everything. Good solid ground work is the best way to make him as calm as possibly and accept different things if he's been taught to show down and think before he acts.

[TheRedHayflinger]

picking one or two main items and then randomly switching it up now and then so they either spook in place, or stand and take it and teaching them not to bolt, buck, rear, spazz out teaches them to do the same for ANYTHING scary...you can't despook them from anything you might come across...but get them used to a golf cart(gas powered) and they are more than likely to be used to cars, tractors, 4 wheelers, etc....a bag or sack? then they'll be more used to paper and trash blowing in front of them(because, sadly, some people don't know how to follow the Leave No Trace ideals)...and so on and so forth....sometimes when you despook them to one thing, it can help with several others...heck..my first really spooky horse I just used a milk jug with pebbles in it....and that was it. I'd rattle it while she was tied and slowly moved closer and closer to her till the point I was tossing it under her and shaking it while riding her. She was extremely spooky of flying paper debris, tarps and barking dogs...but you know, I never used any of those to work with her and they next time we were out on the trail, we came across a few really loud dogs and a plastic bag broke free of someone's grip and blew right in her face....and she stopped and just sorta spooked in place/planted her feet....shuddered and then went on her way. By the end of the ride she even felt brave enough to throw a kick out at one of the barking dogs that was lose and following us(how annoying) instead of bolting away. She's continually become more and more brave on the trail....I still can't bring a tarp up to her and throw it over her, but when she is under saddle, she'll willingly walk over one or "through" them if I have a couple hanging up where she can walk between...she is very intelligent and takes great care of me when I'm on her back....I can't lead her through the tarps to save my life, but if I'm on her back, she'll go.

[SuperSTB]

it will (and hason many horses) developed and does develop a trusting relationship. They are flight animals and need to learn to alter that attitude.the horse learns that no matter what is around him,you are not going to put the horse in a situation where he is going to get hurt. im going to assume that you dont trail ride? do you? Desensatizing at the barn can help out on the trail. If you desenatize a horse to bags, plastic bottle crinkling, cans crushing, if a bag blows or get caught in a tree, or if he steps on a bottle or can, he will already know its not going to hurt him and possibly wont even jump sideways where there might be tree waiting. If someone walks down the street with an umbrella or rides a bike passed you, he wont spook or even think twice about it rather than possibly swaying sideways into traffic. if theres a unknown hunter in the woods that sets off a gun shot or teenagers setting off firecrackers at the camp ground he wont spook because he has been exposed to it already. The horse not only learns to trust you more but learns to trust the objects around him and the people around him.I hope that helps you understand a bit why we desensatize our horses.

I'm being sarcastic...

Throwing a bunch of crap at your horse in hopes to 'desentisize' it is not exactly a great training method. Unfortunetly the wonders of marketing natural horsemanship by a bunch of hacks have somehow turned the trash heap into a training method.

Put the trash away and teach your horse to respond to YOU not the floating plastic bags. I have this debate with my sister all the time...

[gaited07]

I do agree that you need a bond with your horse and it is very important to continue ground work.
I also believe that some desensitizing work is also needed for a good sound trail horse.

I've never watched any "official" videos on this so I can not say about the natural horsemanship training aides that superstb is speaking. However, I have seen some amazing results from my own horses with my methods of training/desensitizing to the unknown boogy man.

[YAorNEIGH]

Why do you need to desensitize your horse to a bunch of misc. crap???

I never understood this.

...Throwing a bunch of bags, tarps, umbrellas, firecrackers, etc is not going to develop that trusting relationship.

It's pretty simple :) The more "misc. crap" that you desensitize your horse to, the more prepared he is to deal with seeing other unexpected "misc. crap" that might startle and frighten him. It helps him gain the courage to face new, scary things and to be sure of himself in making sure that orange cone or that bit of trash blowing in the wind isn't going to chase him down and eat him alive.

If we didn't desensitize them to things that they're likely (and even unlikely) to run across, they wouldn't be very reliable or safe companions. You want to prepare your horse to deal with whatever comes his way, for his safety and yours.

[Palogal]

I'm being sarcastic...

Throwing a bunch of crap at your horse in hopes to 'desentisize' it is not exactly a great training method. Unfortunetly the wonders of marketing natural horsemanship by a bunch of hacks have somehow turned the trash heap into a training method.

Put the trash away and teach your horse to respond to YOU not the floating plastic bags. I have this debate with my sister all the time...

I agree. I don't desensitize with a bunch of crazy stuff just the big ones like plastic bags (and the occasional rain coat that had fangs one day :)). If you teach the horse by proper ground work he will wait and think, not freak out. It all depends on how you work him on the ground and how you make him think. Not to mention, there will never he a horse ever that does not spook at anything. However, if you can teach them to startle rather than spook you're much better off. If there's something that comes along that's especially scary I work with that as it comes up rather than throwing a bunch of stuff at the horse all at once just to see what scares him.

[YAorNEIGH]

I don't see any harm in desensitizing your horse to whatever you can get your hands on. *shrugs* If you've got a few spare moments to introduce him to something new that will save him from being terrified of it later, then why not? I'm not a real big "natural horsemanship" proponent, but there's a difference between being against Parelli-ism and taking a stand against something that might actually be good for you and your horse.

:) SuperSTB, are there any reasons that come to mind that would cause desensitizing like this to be detrimental to horse and/or human? I'm trying to see where you're coming from, since all I can think of is positive effects from using this technique...

[SuperSTB]

I'm not against sacking out or despooking your horse. But there is an extreme and based on OP's original post of looking for anything and everything is extreme.

Let me start out by saying what the purpose of 'sacking out' really is:
example from Cherry Hill
http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_training/sacking_out.htm (http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_training/sacking_out.htm)

in particular for those who don't wish to read the entire link
"Although the goal of "sacking out" is for the horse to remain calm when confronted with spooky objects or suspicious circumstances, it is undesirable to make the horse a dullard. Sacking out can be carried to extremes and produce a totally insensitive and unresponsive horse that ignores its environment and even the trainer's cues. The art of horse training is to produce an individual that is sensible yet responsive. "

The latest trend is to take an idea or training concept and go beserk with it. I guess that's why we have a gazillion bits, training aids and gadgets on the market. We're overcomplicating our equine relationships.

It is IMPOSSIBLE and unnecessary to find everything and anything to present to your horse in hopes to 'despook' it. And quite honestly why would one even want to do this? Instead of spending the hours on finding oodles of junk and presenting them to your horse- find a couple and then move on to establishing that solid communication and trust by working together.

Why I brought up Natural Horsemanship trend is because this massive despooking efforts are being more and more purported by the lower end of the scale of these types of "trainers". How many photos do you see online that consists of a horse covered in god knows what yard debris and advertised as wonderfully despooked because the owner/trainer employed some senstational new NH trainer?

Here's a live example. I put up the new above ground pool last spring. Got some buggy eyes from the horses when first exposed to the 'giant thing' on the other side of the fence next to the arena. I let them 'check it out' for just a few moments but then redirected their energy to paying attention to *us/work*. If you dwell on it, they will dwell on it. Now I could say- gee the horses are spooky and find all kind of stuff to despook them but it's not going to build the better communication and trust needed to redirect them to *us/work*.

A horse can also be accustomed to dogs or vehicles or whatnot but that doesn't mean they are not going to spook at any of that on the trail or while driving either. What will help you is better communication (better riding or driving skills) and trust.

[YAorNEIGH]

Great information, SuperSTB :) Thank you for sharing.

[Palogal]

You mean you didn't pick up your pool and rub it all over your horses SSTB? LOL. I oversacked out one of my fillies and although she's very brave, I had to re-sensitize her so she wasn't so hard to cue. I'm all for sacking out - but not totally desesitizing. It's also about context. If you bring a bunch of stuff into a round pen it's an artificial environment. Encountering the same thing on a trail can be a totally different situation. Plastic bags are popular for the sound they make, if the horse gets used to the sound you hope that a tarp, that sounds similar would be okay if it happened to come loose and be flapping in the wind somewhere...at least that's how I see it.

[SuperSTB]

You mean you didn't pick up your pool and rub it all over your horses SSTB? LOL.

:hysterical:

Vic thinks it's fabulous giant water bucket. (let's see if I can reach my freakish giraffe neck over the fence and play in it!)

[luckydoublesranch]

I'm being sarcastic...

Throwing a bunch of crap at your horse in hopes to 'desentisize' it is not exactly a great training method. Unfortunetly the wonders of marketing natural horsemanship by a bunch of hacks have somehow turned the trash heap into a training method.

Put the trash away and teach your horse to respond to YOU not the floating plastic bags. I have this debate with my sister all the time...


LOL! Sorry, but (IMO) I would love to see how far a bond holds you when an ATV comes barreling at you on the trail, or as mentioned someone unbeknownst to you fire a gun close-by, or when the neighbors kids all come running at your horse screaming "let me pet him, let me pet him!! I could go on and on about everything that a horse could potentially spook at and I believe that if you can lessen the degree of the "spook" why not??...Yes, a bond with your horse and training is a crucial foundation for everything and helps the whole scenario, but I don't know why in the world that anyone would say that desensitizing a horse using a bunch of "crap" is a "trash heap"??... Also, where do you get the idea that ANY natural horsemanship training developed these ideas?? Since the "dawn" of a horse/man relationship people have desensitized horses. What do you think you are doing when teach a horse to take a saddle, cart, weight of a rider, etc??? It's the same prepose...As for the "natural horsemanship" debate, what exactly do you consider to be "natural horsemanship" because yet again this is a WIDE spectrum of possible training methods that have MANY implements that again have been around for AGES. My idea of NH would probably differ from the next person and that would probably differ from the next, so the negative label on NH is unfounded IMO. If you look at MANY of the suggestions the original OP was given they tie into everyday working situations for many horses. ie...dragging a pallet=roping/working cowhorse exercise,...firecrackers=preparing for event with mounted shooting or gunshots while out riding,...moving large objects=crowd control for mounted police officers...

[YAorNEIGH]

I oversacked out one of my fillies and although she's very brave, I had to re-sensitize her so she wasn't so hard to cue. I'm all for sacking out - but not totally desesitizing.

Wait...Aren't you referring to two different things there, palogal? A horse that's dull and doesn't respond well to cues isn't necessarily bombproof...Nor is a feely, responsive horse necessarily going to be spooky...

Also, I'm interested to hear how you went about "re-sensitizing" her. Do tell!

[YAorNEIGH]

As for the "natural horsemanship" debate, what exactly do you consider to be "natural horsemanship" because yet again this is a WIDE spectrum of possible training methods that have MANY implements that again have been around for AGES.

That's something that kind of bothers me, luckydoubles...People tend to attach a very negative connotation to the term "natural horsemanship" these days, because of Parelli...But even Parelli will admit that he's not the one who came up with the core philosophy behind those methods, nor is he the creator of "natural horsemanship". :) He's just the one who branded it and packaged it up to spoon-feed to the masses at ridiculously inflated prices.

I mean, heck. I use a stick and string for lots of things when training, from lunging to desensitizing the rump and legs without getting in range of a kick or strike...But mine's not orange and doesn't have the cutesy Parelli names or the Parelli price tags ;)

Speaking of which! OP, a stick and string is a great tool for sacking out!

http://www.horsefriendly.com/store/media/training_stick_lg.jpg

[Palogal]

LOL! Sorry, but (IMO) I would love to see how far a bond holds you when an ATV comes barreling at you on the trail, or as mentioned someone unbeknownst to you fire a gun close-by, or when the neighbors kids all come running at your horse screaming "let me pet him, let me pet him!! I could go on and on about everything that a horse could potentially spook at and I believe that if you can lessen the degree of the "spook" why not??...Yes, a bond with your horse and training is a crucial foundation for everything and helps the whole scenario, but I don't know why in the world that anyone would say that desensitizing a horse using a bunch of "crap" is a "trash heap"??... Also, where do you get the idea that ANY natural horsemanship training developed these ideas?? Since the "dawn" of a horse/man relationship people have desensitized horses. What do you think you are doing when teach a horse to take a saddle, cart, weight of a rider, etc??? It's the same prepose...As for the "natural horsemanship" debate, what exactly do you consider to be "natural horsemanship" because yet again this is a WIDE spectrum of possible training methods that have MANY implements that again have been around for AGES. My idea of NH would probably differ from the next person and that would probably differ from the next, so the negative label on NH is unfounded IMO. If you look at MANY of the suggestions the original OP was given they tie into everyday working situations for many horses. ie...dragging a pallet=roping/working cowhorse exercise,...firecrackers=preparing for event with mounted shooting or gunshots while out riding,...moving large objects=crowd control for mounted police officers...

So do you let a bunch of kids run at your horse to desensitize him? I get the ATV thing, that's part of farm life most of the time. I think SSTB's point was that a whole bunch of things to de-spook the horse are not needed. As for the gun fire thing, well if you're around gun fire a lot I suppose that would be one of those things you work with.

My point was if you do good ground work and teach the horse to think and then react which is clear as mud I'm sure, and the horse meets those things, and thinks for a second he will see that it's okay. A horse that startles, I can deal with but the tearing off and freaking out I cannot.

[SuperSTB]

So do you let a bunch of kids run at your horse to desensitize him? I get the ATV thing, that's part of farm life most of the time. I think SSTB's point was that a whole bunch of things to de-spook the horse are not needed. As for the gun fire thing, well if you're around gun fire a lot I suppose that would be one of those things you work with.

My point was if you do good ground work and teach the horse to think and then react which is clear as mud I'm sure, and the horse meets those things, and thinks for a second he will see that it's okay. A horse that startles, I can deal with but the tearing off and freaking out I cannot.

Thank you, it's exactly that. Someone didn't quite read the entire post nor the link I attached to a fairly well respected resource. Sacking out is good BUT

People tend to get carried away with the despooking stuff. For example- dragging a pallet is not only unsafe but absolutely not necessary.

And I stand by my comments on NH, there are too many wannabe's out there trying to pedal their wares. Over complicating things and setting up people for an accident or failure. Know the difference. If a NH trainer is telling you you need to use a whole bunch of things to desensitize a horse then question it. Many people are so concerned about getting the end product they forget to question the process and the reason behind it.

[luckydoublesranch]

So do you let a bunch of kids run at your horse to desensitize him?

Yes...in fact I do!! If I have a horse that is constantly spooking at every little thing, including children, I will have my kids run all over and act like crazy people while the horse is in the pen. Even with a horse that is not generally spooky, it's a good idea. When I was younger a little girl that lived down the road from us decided to run up to my old man "Okie" to pet him. I didn't have time to react, or even say a word and *WHAM!* he kicked her square in the mouth! I learned the hard way about desensitizing horses to small children, so yes, I do "let a bunch of kids" run around the pen and desensitize the horse. I wish I would have done such "crap" long ago....

[Kowgirlkate]

Lol, if you think these these methods are crazy, you should see what police horses have to go thru in order to make the grade. I have a bond with my horses- but I also do all this stuff so they're not fruitcakes. I'd rather have one used to all the crazy stuff that might scare them than a bond to one that's unpredictable any day- Luckydoubles is right, a bond will only take you so far when a horse is suddenly scared. A scared horse is only concerned about himself, even bonded horses will sacrafice thier owner to the hungry plastic bag that scared them, unless they're trained to realize it's not a big deal.

[PatriotsDreamer]

This was my original post

Since we all know Dreamer is going through a BOOT CAMP FROM HELL, im looking for good things to sack him out to. I want to sack him out to anything and everything i can think he may possibly be afraid or jump from. Anyone got some ideas? what do you despook your horses from and what are some things most people wouldnt think of? any ideas or comments welcome and appriciated.:)

A rain coat! I didn't mean to use it but I ended up using it one day...when it was drizzling out. :) SSTB has a point though. You can't desensitize him to everything. Good solid ground work is the best way to make him as calm as possibly and accept different things if he's been taught to show down and think before he acts. I agree Palo, i cant desensitize him to everything and i dont plan on it, but i would like to find the things that , as my original post read, I THINK he will spook at. He is NOT a spooky horse, im just looking for things to keep the ground work interesting.

I'm being sarcastic...

Throwing a bunch of crap at your horse in hopes to 'desentisize' it is not exactly a great training method. Unfortunetly the wonders of marketing natural horsemanship by a bunch of hacks have somehow turned the trash heap into a training method.

Put the trash away and teach your horse to respond to YOU not the floating plastic bags. I have this debate with my sister all the time... Well thats your openion and your welcome to it, but with all respect, please dont bash the way I train my horse, its my prerogative that i have used successfullly on many horses and have seen positive results from. I never asked what people think of sacking out i asked what people used. I am eager to know why you think its not a good training method though, could you elaborate please? Using the objects allows YOU how to teach your horse how you want him to react.
I'm not against sacking out or despooking your horse. But there is an extreme and based on OP's original post of looking for anything and everything is extreme.

Let me start out by saying what the purpose of 'sacking out' really is:
example from Cherry Hill
http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_training/sacking_out.htm (http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_training/sacking_out.htm)

in particular for those who don't wish to read the entire link
"Although the goal of "sacking out" is for the horse to remain calm when confronted with spooky objects or suspicious circumstances, it is undesirable to make the horse a dullard. Sacking out can be carried to extremes and produce a totally insensitive and unresponsive horse that ignores its environment and even the trainer's cues. The art of horse training is to produce an individual that is sensible yet responsive. "

The latest trend is to take an idea or training concept and go beserk with it. I guess that's why we have a gazillion bits, training aids and gadgets on the market. We're overcomplicating our equine relationships.

It is IMPOSSIBLE and unnecessary to find everything and anything to present to your horse in hopes to 'despook' it. And quite honestly why would one even want to do this? Instead of spending the hours on finding oodles of junk and presenting them to your horse- find a couple and then move on to establishing that solid communication and trust by working together.

Why I brought up Natural Horsemanship trend is because this massive despooking efforts are being more and more purported by the lower end of the scale of these types of "trainers". How many photos do you see online that consists of a horse covered in god knows what yard debris and advertised as wonderfully despooked because the owner/trainer employed some senstational new NH trainer?

Here's a live example. I put up the new above ground pool last spring. Got some buggy eyes from the horses when first exposed to the 'giant thing' on the other side of the fence next to the arena. I let them 'check it out' for just a few moments but then redirected their energy to paying attention to *us/work*. If you dwell on it, they will dwell on it. Now I could say- gee the horses are spooky and find all kind of stuff to despook them but it's not going to build the better communication and trust needed to redirect them to *us/work*.

A horse can also be accustomed to dogs or vehicles or whatnot but that doesn't mean they are not going to spook at any of that on the trail or while driving either. What will help you is better communication (better riding or driving skills) and trust.
I want to sack him out to anything and everything i can think he may possibly be afraid or jump from. There is nothing extreme about that. That i s what i originally said, yes. i didnt go into detail how i was going about this or why i wanted to use the objects. I believe there is a steady balanced way to go about this. I believe and exersize using objects YOU THINK your horse will spook at( in order to purposely scare them and desensatize them to the object at the same time), and when they do show signs of spooking SHOW the horse how you want it to react, by guiding it, or cues, or whatever, and reward it reassuringly. Im not one to dominate horses, i work as a team with them, afterall i want them to take care of me too. They have to be taught how you want them to spook. answer one question for me. how many young horses have you trained from scratch( as in the whole nine yards? Do you trail ride? how many horses have you trained for trail riding? If you answer more than zero, what did you do and how did you do it?
LOL! Sorry, but (IMO) I would love to see how far a bond holds you when an ATV comes barreling at you on the trail, or as mentioned someone unbeknownst to you fire a gun close-by, or when the neighbors kids all come running at your horse screaming "let me pet him, let me pet him!! I could go on and on about everything that a horse could potentially spook at and I believe that if you can lessen the degree of the "spook" why not??...Yes, a bond with your horse and training is a crucial foundation for everything and helps the whole scenario, but I don't know why in the world that anyone would say that desensitizing a horse using a bunch of "crap" is a "trash heap"??... Also, where do you get the idea that ANY natural horsemanship training developed these ideas?? Since the "dawn" of a horse/man relationship people have desensitized horses. What do you think you are doing when teach a horse to take a saddle, cart, weight of a rider, etc??? It's the same prepose...As for the "natural horsemanship" debate, what exactly do you consider to be "natural horsemanship" because yet again this is a WIDE spectrum of possible training methods that have MANY implements that again have been around for AGES. My idea of NH would probably differ from the next person and that would probably differ from the next, so the negative label on NH is unfounded IMO. If you look at MANY of the suggestions the original OP was given they tie into everyday working situations for many horses. ie...dragging a pallet=roping/working cowhorse exercise,...firecrackers=preparing for event with mounted shooting or gunshots while out riding,...moving large objects=crowd control for mounted police officers...
all i have to say is well explained.

Wait...Aren't you referring to two different things there, palogal? A horse that's dull and doesn't respond well to cues isn't necessarily bombproof...Nor is a feely, responsive horse necessarily going to be spooky...

Also, I'm interested to hear how you went about "re-sensitizing" her. Do tell!
I want to hear how you resensitize a horse too, never heard of it. and when you desensatize a horse, its all about how you go about it, how you teach it to respond, and how far you take it. I dont think its a bad thing at all.
So do you let a bunch of kids run at your horse to desensitize him? I get the ATV thing, that's part of farm life most of the time. I think SSTB's point was that a whole bunch of things to de-spook the horse are not needed. As for the gun fire thing, well if you're around gun fire a lot I suppose that would be one of those things you work with.

My point was if you do good ground work and teach the horse to think and then react which is clear as mud I'm sure, and the horse meets those things, and thinks for a second he will see that it's okay. A horse that startles, I can deal with but the tearing off and freaking out I cannot.
How do you teach a horse to think and react if you dont desensatize him to things he is afraid of. This is awful contradicting.

I think a couple people here are making assumptions that Dreamer is a spooky horse. He is not at all ( especially for his age). We are brushing up manners, i have compiled a number of ground exersizes i plan on working with him at and some of them just happens to contain some degrees of despooking. i want to use anything and everything ( not all at once, scattered out throughout his lessons) which is why i asked for a list. now back to the orginial topic. what do you use to despook your horse?

[luckydoublesranch]

superSTB...Have you done much work with cattle and roping or possibly started a horse to pull a cart?? I think you would definitely see the "neccessity" of a pallet excercise, it's commonly used and if done properly not dangerous at all. I'd love for you to check out the threads from the gals here getting ready for a competition and all of the "dangerous" things they've been subjecting their horses to... (ha ha!) ;)

I'm definitely getting the feeling there are some in this thread that are from a VERY different riding world than myself and I'm sure some of you. So are we to take the words of one clinician, trainer, horseperson and forget the possibilty of another's ideas being legitimate? Hmmmm....I don't think so. Obviously this arguement is futile...

[YAorNEIGH]

I oversacked out one of my fillies and although she's very brave, I had to re-sensitize her so she wasn't so hard to cue. I'm all for sacking out - but not totally desesitizing.

Wait...Aren't you referring to two different things there, palogal? A horse that's dull and doesn't respond well to cues isn't necessarily bombproof...Nor is a feely, responsive horse necessarily going to be spooky...

Also, I'm interested to hear how you went about "re-sensitizing" her. Do tell! I want to hear how you resensitize a horse too, never heard of it. and when you desensatize a horse, its all about how you go about it, how you teach it to respond, and how far you take it. I dont think its a bad thing at all.


I want to hear how you resensitize a horse too, never heard of it.


Thanks, Patriots ;) I'm pretty curious myself!

[Palogal]

Let me try to explain this better...
My horses are not around gunfire very often. I would imagine that if I were trail riding and a gun were fired my horses would probably startle and I'm okay with that. I have trained them well enough that it's highly doubtful that they would spook or run. If I didn't want them to startle at all I would probably get them used to gunfire but it's okay with me that they startle.


To answer your other question...
When a horse is over desensitized they show no reaction to anything is the only way for me to explain that. So I had to teach this filly to react to light cues as she did before I sacked her out too much. Just like if you touch somewhere and the horse kicks, you continue to touch there until they don't....well it's the reverse. Since she would not lunge when I raised my arm I had to increase the force (by using a lunge whip) until she did and teach her that when I raise my left arm she is to go to the left. Now she is fine, but it took me quite a few weeks to fix it.

Now that I think about it, it was kind of how you train a draft or a warmblood, teach them to react...

[zoel_222]

I desensitize my horses, not so much to get them used to the scary objects, but to teach them how to react safely and calmly in scary situations.

[luckydoublesranch]

Lol, if you think these these methods are crazy, you should see what police horses have to go thru in order to make the grade. I have a bond with my horses- but I also do all this stuff so they're not fruitcakes. I'd rather have one used to all the crazy stuff that might scare them than a bond to one that's unpredictable any day- Luckydoubles is right, a bond will only take you so far when a horse is suddenly scared. A scared horse is only concerned about himself, even bonded horses will sacrafice thier owner to the hungry plastic bag that scared them, unless they're trained to realize it's not a big deal.


LOL! Darn those horse eating monsters!! :p

[All4Grace]

:popcorn:
:popcorn:
:popcorn:
WAIT!!
Sis... does that mean I can't throw the giant yellow ball at Grace anymore...it's so entertaining to torture my mare so. I still want to teach her to hulla hoop. :p

I have known a few Overly desensi...oh heck I can't be bothered to look at the spelling...
anyway! A friend up in VT overly de-spooked her now 6yr old filly to the point where the filly wouldn't even mover when a 3 ton tractor was coming down a hill at her (she didn't get hit don't worry).

I enjoy throwing strange objects at my mare, but I think my reasons are for pure enjoyment... tehe... (insert evil laugh here)

*grabs hulla hoop* OOO GRACIE! :innocent:

[YAorNEIGH]

Well, all...I think we just have to agree to disagree :D I still fail to see how "overly" sacking out is possible. And I'm still missing the relationship between de-spooking or desensitizing and dull or unresponsive...There are *tons* of bombproof, level-headed horses that are very light and responsive to cues...I think those are two separate aspects.

I suppose you could, for example, desensitize a horse to leg cues by not rewarding when he moves forward at leg pressure, resulting in a horse that you have to kick the crap out of to get him to move...but I don't think that's what we're referring to here. That desensitization is completely independent of desensitizing to foreign objects!

[ImaBronsonBear]

Might as well add my 2 cents here.

My main goal when desensitizing my horse is to get him thinking. That is all i want. I don't give a rip if he stands and stares at my plastic bag like it is going to kill him. That's Ok. Because guess what? He's thinking about it. That is how i want him to react whenever we meet something new on the trail. Stop and look at it.

Recently, Bronson decided that it was much more fun to react before thinking. Which meant spinning and bolting at my dog (which he's seen at least 1,000 times), spinning and taking off bucking because there were some deer in the brush (which he's also seen many times). So i went and got my plastic bags, my ropes, my umbrellas and i worked on getting him to think and stop and look before he reacted. Voila! Problem solved. I don't need to do any more desensitizing.

[PatriotsDreamer]

Let me try to explain this better...
My horses are not around gunfire very often. I would imagine that if I were trail riding and a gun were fired my horses would probably startle and I'm okay with that. I have trained them well enough that it's highly doubtful that they would spook or run. If I didn't want them to startle at all I would probably get them used to gunfire but it's okay with me that they startle.


To answer your other question...
When a horse is over desensitized they show no reaction to anything is the only way for me to explain that. So I had to teach this filly to react to light cues as she did before I sacked her out too much. Just like if you touch somewhere and the horse kicks, you continue to touch there until they don't....well it's the reverse. Since she would not lunge when I raised my arm I had to increase the force (by using a lunge whip) until she did and teach her that when I raise my left arm she is to go to the left. Now she is fine, but it took me quite a few weeks to fix it.

Now that I think about it, it was kind of how you train a draft or a warmblood, teach them to react... That us untrue. They show no reaction to any of the SAME OR SIMULAR OBJECTS he was desensatized to. You say as she did before you sacked her out to much, i think its not that she was sacked out too much but not sacked out right. That is more or less LACK of ground manners,the horse being lazy, or hasnt been worked with on the given task regularly., if you would have continued to practice the lunging normally along with the sacking out, the horse would have never forgot how or got desensatized to the fact that a raised arm means GO.


Well, all...I think we just have to agree to disagree :D I still fail to see how "overly" sacking out is possible. And I'm still missing the relationship between de-spooking or desensitizing and dull or unresponsive...There are *tons* of bombproof, level-headed horses that are very light and responsive to cues...I think those are two separate aspects.

I suppose you could, for example, desensitize a horse to leg cues by not rewarding when he moves forward at leg pressure, resulting in a horse that you have to kick the crap out of to get him to move...but I don't think that's what we're referring to here. That desensitization is completely independent of desensitizing to foreign objects! This could be what happend to palo, the horse missed the reward or the purpose of what she was asking, not necc. overly desensitzed to an object, but to a non reward( just guessing palo please dont get offended.)


I desensitize my horses, not so much to get them used to the scary objects, but to teach them how to react safely and calmly in scary situations.
I agree zoe that is my purpose as well.

[YAorNEIGH]

ImaBronsonBear and zoel_222, I think that was very well put. I agree that getting the horse thinking rather than acting on instinct when confronted by something new and scary is the base goal of sacking out :)

[SuperSTB]

superSTB... possibly started a horse to pull a cart?? I think you would definitely see the "neccessity" of a pallet excercise, it's commonly used and if done properly not dangerous at all. ;)


Yes to 1 and absolutely no to the next. Pulling a pallet IS dangerous. You can't explain away the danger any other way. I've never heard of ANY reputable trainer teaching a horse to drive by pulling a pallet. Use a tire instead.

[PatriotsDreamer]

Yes to 1 and absolutely no to the next. Pulling a pallet IS dangerous. You can't explain away the danger any other way. I've never heard of ANY reputable trainer teaching a horse to drive by pulling a pallet. Use a tire instead.
BO have harness horses. I can give you a list of reputable trainers ( in our area) that use pallets first. Dreammaster was started on a pallet.

[offgridgirl]

Great stuff to try.....I'm gonna have some fun tomorrow..hehehehehehehe...
Look out horses....here I come:innocent:

[Palogal]

Yes to 1 and absolutely no to the next. Pulling a pallet IS dangerous. You can't explain away the danger any other way. I've never heard of ANY reputable trainer teaching a horse to drive by pulling a pallet. Use a tire instead.

I don't know anyone that has a horse pull a pallet either. A tire, yes, I've seen and done that but not a pallet that can splinter, break at a jagged edge, break and expose a nail. That's not a risk good trainers take. It's kind of like the folks who make jumps out of PVC Pipe - sure it's not likely to cause a problem but if it did it would be a bad one.

[Palogal]

BTW, thank you for the implication my filly was not trained correctly. I supposed such an assumption is the same as assuming Dreamer is a spooky horse.

[PatriotsDreamer]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Palogal http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/images/styles/beige/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?p=85658#post85658)
Let me try to explain this better...
My horses are not around gunfire very often. I would imagine that if I were trail riding and a gun were fired my horses would probably startle and I'm okay with that.I have trained them well enough that it's highly doubtful that they would spook or run. If I didn't want them to startle at all I would probably get them used to gunfire but it's okay with me that they startle.


To answer your other question...
When a horse is over desensitized they show no reaction to anything is the only way for me to explain that. So I had to teach this filly to react to light cues as she did before I sacked her out too much. Just like if you touch somewhere and the horse kicks, you continue to touch there until they don't....well it's the reverse. Since she would not lunge when I raised my arm I had to increase the force (by using a lunge whip) until she did and teach her that when I raise my left arm she is to go to the left. Now she is fine, but it took me quite a few weeks to fix it.

Now that I think about it, it was kind of how you train a draft or a warmblood, teach them to react...

That us untrue. They show no reaction to any of the SAME OR SIMULAR OBJECTS he was desensatized to. You say as she did before you sacked her out to much, i think its not that she was sacked out too much but not sacked out right. That is more or less LACK of ground manners,the horse being lazy, or hasnt been worked with on the given task regularly., if you would have continued to practice the lunging normally along with the sacking out, the horse would have never forgot how or got desensatized to the fact that a raised arm means GO.



Quote:
Originally Posted by YAorNEIGH http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/images/styles/beige/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?p=85701#post85701)
Well, all...I think we just have to agree to disagree :D I still fail to see how "overly" sacking out is possible. And I'm still missing the relationship between de-spooking or desensitizing and dull or unresponsive...There are *tons* of bombproof, level-headed horses that are very light and responsive to cues...I think those are two separate aspects.

I suppose you could, for example, desensitize a horse to leg cues by not rewarding when he moves forward at leg pressure, resulting in a horse that you have to kick the crap out of to get him to move...but I don't think that's what we're referring to here. That desensitization is completely independent of desensitizing to foreign objects!

This could be what happend to palo, the horse missed the reward or the purpose of what she was asking, not necc. overly desensitzed to an object, but to a non reward( just guessing palo please dont get offended.)
Yes to 1 and absolutely no to the next. Pulling a pallet IS dangerous. You can't explain away the danger any other way. I've never heard of ANY reputable trainer teaching a horse to drive by pulling a pallet. Use a tire instead.

BTW, thank you for the implication my filly was not trained correctly. I supposed such an assumption is the same as assuming Dreamer is a spooky horse.
Well thats fine for those who think that dreamer is a spooky horse, well, they can think that, but i have videos upon videos of him that will prove otherwise. I can prove that im correct on him not being spooky but that is its own deal.

Im sorry if it offends you but I really truly believe that particular situation(reguardless of whose sitaution it is, whether it even be my own,), it was not overdesensatizing that was the problem. Your hand is a cue, not a random object, not something you desensatized her to. Thats like saying if you ride your horse too much and cue him with the reins( or leg for that matter), to turn enough for example, he will start to ignore it because he has been overdesensatized to it. Thats not the case, it will only make him turn better by practicing it. I hope you understand where im coming from on this rather than being offended. It wasnt meant to offend you( as stated) but rather to prove a point.
a horse refusing a cue happens from either lack of training, rebellion(from not being worked with or being lazy), the horse misunderstanding the cue, or improper training.


You also stated this:
When a horse is over desensitized they show no reaction to anything is the only way for me to explain that.
That is not true. I can name 4 different horses( 2 of which are mules)from the same home and the same trainer that have had the HECK desensatized out of them(2 of them are getting older and had been born here).
1 is a bay mule
1 is a paint horse
1 is a quarter
1 is a rocky mountian horse
if it can be done it has been done to them. They are and always have been on a regular program( ridden/ worked with at least once a day often twice a day by the same person).
The mule ( one of the older ones) I SWEAR is spookproof. or atleast i have never once seen him spook at anything. He is still stubborn( typical mule).
The paint(7 i think) i have never seen spook. He is LAY-ZY! but he is very responsive super sensitive to ride if that makes sense at all, turns on a dime too.
The quarter(one of the older ones) i have seen spook maybe once or twice. she is SUPER easy to ride but has sensitive sides.
The rocky mountain spooks most often( which isnt even often) but you have to know how to ride if your going to ride her.
These are just some examples.

[Palogal]

We will agree to disagree, best of luck with Dreamer.:)

[gaited07]

Lol, if you think these these methods are crazy, you should see what police horses have to go thru in order to make the grade. I have a bond with my horses- but I also do all this stuff so they're not fruitcakes. I'd rather have one used to all the crazy stuff that might scare them than a bond to one that's unpredictable any day- Luckydoubles is right, a bond will only take you so far when a horse is suddenly scared. A scared horse is only concerned about himself, even bonded horses will sacrafice thier owner to the hungry plastic bag that scared them, unless they're trained to realize it's not a big deal.



All I got to say is, "I AGREE"

I've seen people being overly protective of their horses and would frown on people with "things" that might spook Trigger. Their comments would be like, "Don't wave that jacket around, it will spook my horse, Trigger" Or, "I don't ride over there because there is something that spooks my horse" Or, "Keep you kids away from my horse, he doesn't like little kids???!!!:huh:"

De-spooking/desensitizing makes for a safe and SANE horse and relationship between rider and horse. Not to mention, the people around this horse is SAFE too!

Not everyone is going to share this method of training and that is OKAY. It's what works for us and ALL the MOUNTED PATROL UNITS in the WORLD!!!! Soooooooooo with that said, Patriots, You do what you know is right for you and your horse. You've done a great job with your horses and I'm sure you will continue doing that great job.:cool:

p.s. I just wanted to add that my gelding use to spook at EVERYTHING!!!! Now I can pretty much take him anywhere and he's learned to "TRUST" me.

[WashingtonBay]

Well this was a real interesting thread I'm sorry I've missed up till now.

I believe one of the great values in desensitizing work is not in taking a random object and desensitizing them to that thing until they no longer react, the value to me is observing and learning how the horse thinks and reacts, so that I can learn what to expect with that horse, and then teach the horse to trust me enough to handle those things my way.

Because the value is not in their lack of reaction to a ball (just an example) that has been thrown at them a hundred times, the biggest value is in how they reacted the first time. "OK horse, lets learn how to keep our heads when we are surprised". Because on trail, it's the new freaky surprises that will getcha... not the old derelict car they see every time we go down that trail. It's not about derelict cars, it's about learning to keep our composure when seeing things for the first time, and if I say it's safe to go... the horse trusting me enough to go, and go safely.

[AppyLover]

Hey P.D. here is the link to the thread about gaited, Vegashorselady, miatapony and myself getting ready for a mounted unit compitition here in Las Vegas. http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4299 Maybe you can use some of the things we did to help you keep things interesting with Dreamer. There are pictures and even a couple of videos through out the post.

Good luck, and be safe.