Spot - direction- motivator- reward.

[mtnmollie]

Directing body parts with a soft feel.

Here is what makes my friend John different from any other trainer I know of -

He is going to take one part of the horse
spot ( right front foot)

a precise-specific direction ( step on one o’clock. ) ( Just one step. ) Forward and to the side a bit.

with a soft cue from the bridle or just a thought (motivator.)
No response? Up the volume a little bit or add pressure

and when the foot steps on one o’clock you release and praise.
Reward.
No one else I know teaches how to move body parts of the horse with the bridle cue.

When my horse will not listen to my leg in a leg yield, I can reinforce the leg cue with my bit. No one I know of ( except some of John’s students) understands the value of this in dressage.

My horse got more responsive to my leg and softer to leg cues along with softer in the bridle.
You dont understand what you got tell you get it. LOL>

motivator- pick up slack in rein,

no response? pick up slack slowly-
no response add pressure…

The third ingredient is called motivator and not pressure because
1) people talk to horses with too much pressure
2) Start soft and increase volume to get light horse
3) Find the paycheck or the motivator or the reason for behavior to change…
turn up the volume or add pressure until you get a response-

but don’t start with pressure.
If you start with pressure you will always have a dull horse.

Now I have to go review what it was that John said and taught-
I have it on a tape, DVD and in writing somewhere-

and I did not understand it when I first read it. LOL>

Its so simple its hard it get….
fer me anyways. :rolleyes:

I started riding body parts instead of the whole horse,
the whole horse followed and got lighter and softer. :eek:

Amazing.

[mtnmollie]

I have been riding this way now for 15 years, but I have never been able ot teach it.

So my good horse Justa Dunn is in a reining clinic and she colics so I ride backup.
Sunny is my back- up and he has only walked and trotted and never cantered.

Sunny is doing flying lead changes, rollbacks and sliding stops off my seat. Unbelieveable.
I am in awe.

No one knows he is a green colt but me. The only thing he did poorly was rate, to slow his lope I just dropped to fast extended trot. No one knew why.

His soft feel (instead of pull on the bridle) was better than that of the broke horses who had been in training for years.

Gollie. :eek:

[mtnmollie]

I can tell by replies and views ya all like my stories much better then this ole stuff. LOL> :cowboy:

Les Vogt talked about controling the 5 body parts in his 5 easy pieces DVD or video.
Neck, shoulders, ribs, hips and maybe the nose? He said if you get the neck, you can control the whole horse, no more training problems. People call and say, help. HE says, "Get the neck."

Horse training piece by piece; part by part, step by step.



Originally Posted by Brandi Lyons
...keep it up and remember you are just writing a book with snortie...you together are writing a novel, you can make it about anything you want...drama, comedy, action, love story...whatever...you just have to teach him the letters in your language then put letters together to form words...then sentences...easy stuff!

(letters are the controlling of small body parts, words are putting those parts together to build maneuvers, and sentences are the maneuvers flowing together to build a beautiful relationship) EASY!!
I guess that's my best way of describing how to build control and how to have a better relationship...keep it simple!! AND ENJOY THEM!!!

Les Vogt said the reason you train the 5 body parts, before you put them together is because in a spin, when it begins to fall apart in the show, one can put the spin back together, piece by piece.

I ride the whole horse on the trail, but might ride pieceby piece in the round pen.
If I move this body part, what will it give me?

How many people ride a horse piece by piece ?
I just want this one back foot to step exactly precisely here, just one step.
Can you do that?

[Cat]

The way I was taught to work with them when training is similar to this - its like building blocks. You have to have control of the specific sections before you can have true control of the whole animal.

[mtnmollie]

Who taught you? What did they teach you?

The way I was taught to work with them when training is similar to this ...
Is similar, does that mean it is different in some way?

[Lakota's Pet]

The way I was taught to ride is like that. I have never taken any formal lessons really, the person that taught me was my dad. And because he taught me to be soft, and ask quietly at first, and progress as needed, I feel I have so much more control. When I am working in a crowd of 100,000 people, I need that kind of control so no one gets hurt. I trained my son's 9 year old paint that way, and when the snow is down to a level that I can I ride in again, I will be restarting my buckskin that way. And I must have done something right, the paint took 8th in the North American Police Equestrian Championships last year out of 76 horsess in the obstacle course.

[mtnmollie]

Thsat's GREAT Lakota. :)

I noticed riding parts of the horse improved my reining over anything I could imagine.

[HaveFaith]

Chris Cox says head, neck, shoulders, ribs, hips. Sounds like he wasn't the 1st one to say that.

I really admire trainers. I have a hard time visualizing the steps when they are spoken. I guess I am a hands on kind of person and need to be doing it as someone talks me through. When someone says "ASK", how exactly do you ask? I know pressure, but telling someone how to do something is different than "seeing" it done. It's still hard even on TV. I guess I am just dense.
We have a couple of horses we "trained" and ride that grew up with us, but it is not anything as detailed as what you do. I've never had a lesson even on a trained horse, so I guess I'm lucky I can just ride.
I hope I can stop having to work before I am not able to get on and slow down and actually work on "finesse" instead of just hauling them somewhere and hopping on and going. Ours are pretty good considering we are just "self taught" riders. Except, the BOMB, Soldier, of course. Hubby rode him behind the house yesterday alone and he balked and bucked and threw fits because he wasn't getting his way and coming back to the barn with his herd. I was just proud Hubby wasn't hurt and stayed on. Soldier got what he wanted for so long that now that Hubby has the riding ability and confidence, he has a very spoiled horse to "retrain". Not good when they are big and strong and stubborn.

Sure would be nice if they all came "fixed" like you do, but even if they are and a green rider gets them, they go right back to old habits. Maybe not ALL, so I shouldn't generalize, but that's what I've seen.

[mtnmollie]

Chris Cox says head, neck, shoulders, ribs, hips. Sounds like he wasn't the 1st one to say that.

ISure would be nice if they all came "fixed" like you do, but even if they are and a green rider gets them, they go right back to old habits. Maybe not ALL, so I shouldn't generalize, but that's what I've seen.

Yep. GReat post Have Faith.

If Les teaches how to control the head, neck, shoulders ribe hps, I missed it. LOL.

He just said get control of them, 5 easy pieces. LOL>

I am dislexic and a slow learner... so maybe its me ?

I'll have to look up CC on the net and see what i can find fer free. :cowboy:

I can control the 5 easy pieces because of what i learned from John though.
John mostly taught me how to connect one rein to one foot-
which leads to alot. If I want the hip, I can connect either back foot to either one rein and move it one step anywhere. And then one step leads to two. :cowboy:

[Cat]

Well, Clinton Anderson - especially on his more-indepth videos on starting - teaches how to work each section (like what havefaith says about CC). He also teaches to start very light and increase pressure when needed. Similar ideas. Some of the excersizes include rein with leg work and some of it is just through the reins and some of it is through just the legs.

Then to add that there is a local horse lady (who has probably forgotten more than I will ever know about training) that helped me with Toby when I first got him & was having troubles, and she taught me several small - very specific things - to move certain parts of the horse - i.e. to get one proper step on the back leg to eventually build up to a proper pivot. Unfrotunately she moved.

I actually see a similar theme through most of the good trainers - some just go more indepth while others short-cut it a bit.

[mtnmollie]

I have 3 CA Feel the Difference videos. One is titled Body Control. I should watch them again. All I remember is CA with this poor horse's head jacked to his boot with no releaase being ridden all over the arena. It offended me. LOL.

My neighbor loaned me CA's tape on Leading, and all I saw was one jerk -jerking on the lead rope for control. It offeneded me too. LOL>

Maybe I missed something? :)

I know there is lots of CA supporters on this board. :cowboy:

[HaveFaith]

And that's just what he does ON camera.
We went to Road to the Horse the last year he was there and he had so much junk tied on and in the round pen with the horse, there wasn't much dirt left. It looked like a clown class.
I do not dislike him, but I think there are some that are better. Alot of them probably aren't famous either.
I have no right to be critical, as I am unschooled, but some things I do not like or wouldn't want done to mine.

[mtnmollie]

I saw Road to the Horse with Pat Parelli, he he he he :rolleyes:
Craig Camron, a horseman, and
someone else.

[HaveFaith]

I like Cameron. They are starting to do some of the trail ride obstacle courses around here like he does his Extreme cowboy show. A few of us may try one AFTER we practice ALOT.

[Gypsy Rose]

Very good thread, mtnmollie!

I was always taught to ask a horse- never demand. Demand gets you nowhere- either a dull horse, or one who will fight you, not work with you.

If the horse does not respond right away, you can ask again, or find a different way, depending on the situation. I was taught that kicking, jerking, or holding the aids and not letting up were all counterproductive.

[mtnmollie]

Wow! Great post GR. I see a lot of jerking, kicking rideing with force in the western world.

I see alot of "holding the aids" in the english world - making a dull horse. :eek:

The best and worst riders I have ever met are working cowboys.

My clinic heros or video/DVD heros are LesVogt and Doug Millholland.

Larry Trocha is good but he is also bad.
( Too much force, running reins in a curb bit? Yikes! ) :p

[JackieB]

The best and worst riders I have ever met are working cowboys.


That's an astute comment, Mollie. I've seen some cowboys who are poetry in motion and others who aren't coming off of their horses, but jerk them around in ways that are absolutely unnecessary.

Great thread. Thanks for posting it. I will definitely try to accomplish some of these things when I start riding again here in a few weeks (everything's buried under snow and very cold right now). I do some of what you describe and definitely am always working to be softer and more subtle with my cues. However, I am looking forward to trying to move just one foot instead of completing an entire exercise. That will be a fun challenge.

[mtnmollie]

That's an astute comment, Mollie. I've seen some cowboys who are poetry in motion and others who aren't coming off of their horses, but jerk them around in ways that are absolutely unnecessary.



Yeah. Thats what I was trying to say! You said it better. :)

Thanks!

I hated one foot when I began because I thought " What does this get me? "

I was the same with math in the 4th grade- LOL. ;)

[mtnmollie]

I was always taught to ask a horse- never demand. Demand gets you nowhere- either a dull horse, or one who will fight you, not work with you.



I love that quote. Can we teach a horse to fight us? I think we can.
It is not somethng we want them to learn.

Gene's Morgan mare Amanda was a fighter. It took me 4 years to ' fix' her.
We got to a place of truce, but not buddie.

[mtnmollie]

Directing body parts with a soft feel.

Here is what makes my friend John different from any other trainer I know of -

He is going to take one part of the horse
spot ( right front foot)

a precise-specific direction ( step on one o’clock. ) ( Just one step. ) Forward and to the side a bit.

with a soft cue from the bridle or just a thought (motivator.)
No response? Up the volume a little bit or add pressure

and when the foot steps on one o’clock you release and praise.
Reward.
No one else I know teaches how to move body parts of the horse with the bridle cue.



In the beginning we did opposite rein, opposite foot, and started with the front feet. So I picked up my left rein, take slack out slowly, have right front foot step over on one. If you walk a straight line, you can step your own right foot over on one to get the feel for where the foot will go.

I ride my colt towards the fence, and when I approach the fence at a 45% angle, the horse naturally will step on one because the fence does not allow straight ahead. But I can't use the fence as a cue- I use the rein for a cue - and the horse begins to understand what I want. ( The fence is support.)

At my last clinic everyone could do this on the first try, but the I - net and words is not in person teaching. Its harder to get- LOL>

And besides- the people at my clinic did not understand the value of one step- and they coudl do the exercise but still they did not "get it."

Rough and ready cowboys said "We train the same, " and i agreed. This is how I knew I failed.

Those cowboys could out- ride me if riding bucking horses was the goal.

[wundahoss]

and when the foot steps on one o’clock you release and praise.
Reward.
No one else I know teaches how to move body parts of the horse with the bridle cue.
.....
1) people talk to horses with too much pressure
2) Start soft and increase volume to get light horse
3) Find the paycheck or the motivator or the reason for behavior to change…
turn up the volume or add pressure until you get a response-

Sounds like you're(& your horse is) onto a good wicket with this John. I will add my count to those who do things this way. Your 3 points above are so important IMO.

The only thing I can find fault in with the above is that release of pressure is NOT a reward. It is negative reinforcement(removal of something unpleasant) rather than positive reinforcement(reward, addition of something desirable). The praise, if taught clearly & consistently, can become linked to the -R so that the horse understands it means relief. I like to use a lot of +R in training (along with the important -R), be it food, scratchies or otherwise, so the horses actively enjoy being with me & willingly play my games.

[mtnmollie]

"release of pressure is NOT a reward. It is negative reinforcement(removal of something unpleasant"

Ok. How about praise being a reward?

Some cowboy said, he once went to a Ray Hunt clinic, and learned to praise his horse. :)
They learn faster that way, he said. :cowboy: