Here we go, again..

[Kaitlyn]

Hi all,

I'm still working with the 7 year old gelding, he now understands the concept of lunging and he's had a saddle and halter with two reins (yeah, because the headstalls she has absolutely is too small for him) and has had a rider and he does pretty well under saddle. But now we've gone back to this ridiculous bad habit. Sometimes he doesn't want to lunge and will play dumb and not move out and then when he starts to lunge he'll do a few circles and then just stop. Turn his butt away from me and stares at me like ''are we done yet?'' NO! And then he won't walk on, we have to constantly restart. Advice on how to fix this? He's being very ridiculous about this recently so I haven't been working with him since I get mad and it's not good to end on a bad note. Also, he won't stay out at the same distance, some parts of the circle he'll go way out and other's he's so close I can smack him. (oh, PS he's working on a lead line, not the lunge, the lunge he won't even listen to me so we stuck to the lead line). :help:

[Palogal]

Continue the course your on, re start and make him do as he's told. When he stops and turns to you without being asked I'd give him a sharp tap on the shoulder with a lunge whip and move the forehand out where it belongs. Also teach him a cue to turn in to you and reward him for doing it. When he does it without cue, punish him. You don't want him to NEVER turn to you, but he needs to do as he's told.

[WashingtonBay]

Consider that you're either giving unclear or inconsistent messages, or you're not acknowledging and praising the good, so he's not sure what's right and is getting frustrated. You have to make a clear distinction between the wrong answers and the right one.

[WashingtonBay]

Another observation... I actually find it much easier to teach horse to lunge at the trot than the walk. The walk has a much finer line between too much pressure and not enough, and I actually teach it last. More forward momentum is easier to maintain on the lunge, with most horses.

[dustys_girlly]

one thing to keep in mind is the smaller the circle the harder it is on the horse, so he might be sore. when i am working with a horse on a lounge i can adjust the length that i keep them at when they are good they get a large circle when they want to misbehave i make the circle smaller. when its smaller i have my lounge whip pointed at their hip, kinda like a wall behind pushing them, if they slow down with out being asked they get a tap on the butt. on other thing i do i change the direction a lot, it keeps them thinking about what you want instead of do 10 round one way then 10 the other and we are done.

[lovesfortune]

Kinda off topic, but WB is there anyways you can bring that wonderful lunging post you made over at the other place over here??? Or is that too much of a hassle?

[WashingtonBay]

I did copy it over here, on Kzeiger's first thread regarding this horse (Um, teaching to lunge? - Baywind Farm Horse Forum (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4062&highlight=Lunging)) ... copied most of it anyway.... the bottom of it got cut off in the restoration after the crash, I think.

[Palogal]

Consider that you're either giving unclear or inconsistent messages, or you're not acknowledging and praising the good, so he's not sure what's right and is getting frustrated. You have to make a clear distinction between the wrong answers and the right one.

Yes exactly...which is why she needs to teach a cue.

When I'm lunging a horse the cue is when I drop my arm and say "whoa" that means "stop and come to me". However, you have to start with a big cue, or at least I did. When I first taught it I would drop my whole body and crouch on the ground to get the horses attention and tug on the lunge line until the horse stopped and came to me. Eventually I could just bend at the waist and the horse would stop and come...and finally a slight drop of the arm will do it. Of course whichever stage I was on I rewarded the horse for coming to me.

[Kaitlyn]

I try to keep very very basic commands. Move out, good boy (he is prasied constantly when he is good), walk on. That's about it. I think maybe he could get confused when he's bad I don't say the same things. I typically say stop, no, or the like. I try to keep it consistent but sometimes I get flustered and forget to use the same terms. Even at a trot he swings his butt out and stops.

[Palogal]

When he starts to turn the forehand in, point your whip at his shoulder, if he continues to move his shoulder in, snap the whip and if he still persists pop him in the shoulder with it. When he's already standing still "no" really doesn't mean much, you need to correct him while he's doing it. If he successfully stops I would not mess with a verbal reprimand, I'd pop him with the whip on the shoulder or on the neck right in front of the shoulder telling him to move his forehand away from you and continue to do so (and cluck) until he moves it. Then release the pressure and let him move on. When he goes around two or three times correctly, I would cue him to come in and reward him. I don't use any verbal cues but a cluck and "whoa". I only use "no" for things like pawing in the stall - not for training sessions if that makes any sense. John Lyons I think, say that people talk too much when horses are better with body language. It does take some practice though to be quiet and signal with your body instead of your voice.:)

[WashingtonBay]

You need to cue and praise and correct, and you probably are... but are they well communicated and clear, and are they well timed and meaningful.

If you're frustrated or unsure... you have to overcome that because it's in the way. When you praise, is your body and hands sending the same message as your mouth? Does the horse know it's praise, is it meaningful to him? "Aha! THIS is what she wanted!" All these are imponderables we can't really know without seeing you.

If you're trying to keep him close in (lead line length) and at a walk, are you pushing him forward but he's frequently hitting the line or breaking into a trot and getting corrected for that, corrected for stop.... "Aw geeeze, I'm getting it no matter what I do!" That's why I'd encourage forward movement, free and easy. Let him go at a trot if he wants, let him have the lunge line... forward motion is the goal now. Don't nitpick him for the walk. My two cents.

[luvs2ride1979]

Agree, use more forceful body language. Keep yourself BEHIND his drive line (girth line) and focus your energy at his rear end. Keep that whip pointed at his back feet and crack it if you need to. Keep your shoulder's back and chest out. Project your energy his rear, walking toward his hip with your whip if you need to.

Use a voice command like "walk-on" or "trot-on" when you see him start to slow down. You want to KEEP him going at a brisk pace. Don't let him get to the point of stopping. If he does manage to stop, POP HIM on the butt with your whip. He needs to know that you're not afraid to use it. Praise him with a "good boy" and a lowering of the whip when he goes forward and continues on.

[Palogal]

But if he's turning the forehand at her, being behind the girth line won't help until she corrects the forehand. Even if she cues at the girth line, given that cue it's still not "wrong" to turn the forehand at her. If she holds the whip at the shoulder that specifies that the shoulder is to stay away. Again if he stops and turns in suddenly, a pop on the but sends him forward - toward her.