I Am Outraged!!! (abortion)

[Horserider]

This is outrageous. WB discussion of this is allowed on here right? Not sure because I'm not sure if it would be on horse.com.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/10/11/1533483.aspx

Why don't they talk about this stuff on the news?

In March, Obama said he would educate his daughters about sex education but “if they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby. I don’t want them punished with an STD at the age of 16.”


If they make a mistake?????????? It's views like that that are the reason we have teen pregnancies. The day abortion is legalized (God forbid) is the day we'll see a huge uprising in teen pregnancies. Teens will just stop caring. They'll think "I can do it. If I get pregnant I can always get an abortion." I have HEARD girls say this! It's sick!!!!! A life is a life no matter what.

[FredRock]

Hey, it's all a matter of opinion. I don't see anything wrong with abortion; especially when there is a 16 year old who made a stupid mistake and isn't ready to raise a child, being that she's a child herself.

And personally I think saying teen pregnancies rising because abortion is legalized is like saying giving condoms in schools would increase teen sex. I doubt that hundreds of teens would just jump up and say "let's do it!" if they didn't do it to begin with. At least if abortions were legalized it would be another sagfeguard to help the girl graduate with a GED and be able to make something of herself.

[Harleys Owner]

The day abortion is legalized (God forbid) is the day we'll see a huge uprising in teen pregnancies.

UMMMM...where are you from? Unfortunately Abortion HAS been legalized.

[WashingtonBay]

The day abortion is legalized (God forbid) is the day we'll see a huge uprising in teen pregnancies. Teens will just stop caring.

:huh: The day it's legalized? It's legal now. Or do you mean without parental permission?

I think teens already do think they have an 'out'.


Can you talk about this here? Sure... knock yourselves out. :)

(On edit: Note I said knock yourselves out, not each other! iow, Play nice, this is an emotional issue for many)

[Harleys Owner]

. I don't see anything wrong with abortion;

What about the rights of the child that is aborted?

[mtnmollie]

GiAnna- she was born in an abortion mill. Nurse who worked there rescued her- most who are born alive do not survive-

in the abortion wars- where everyone dies.

Hilter was a bad man who killed 6 million Jews.
Stalin killed 20 million of his own.

We killed over 30 million when I quit counting.
We take everybody- black - white - poor or Jew.

Just come and die.

A grizzly bear or wolf has more protection than the child in the womb-
where one in three die;

in the abortion wars-
where everyone dies.

Who will pay my social security- when I slaughtered my childern?
Where is the next generation?

WE really did not need them- unwanted grief to me.
And it was my choice.

We all pay for our choices- every one of us;
we reap the things that we sow.

[Horserider]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Horserider
The day abortion is legalized (God forbid) is the day we'll see a huge uprising in teen pregnancies. Teens will just stop caring.

The day it's legalized? It's legal now. Or do you mean without parental permission?

I think teens already do think they have an 'out'.


Can you talk about this here? Sure... knock yourselves out.

(On edit: Note I said knock yourselves out, not each other! iow, Play nice, this is an emotional issue for many)

Ok thanks just checking. So it is legal? The last I heard about it, it sounded like Congress was voting on a bill to legalize abortion or make it illegal something like that.

What about the rights of the child that is aborted?

I agree. Abortion is really justified murder. What about the child's rights? Just because it was unexpected and unwanted doesn't mean the child doesn't deserve to live. Who are we to decide who should live and who shouldn't?

[cheval]

I'm glad it's legal. It should be each individual person's choice. No one should be allowed to make the choice of another person. I think it's no one's business what a person does with their own body. There are a lot of instances were pregnancies are mistakes. People that DO take precautions against getting pregnant but for whatever reason the methods fail.

[APPYT]

What about the rights of the child that is aborted?

Absolutely. It is very unfortunate that the voiceless is considered destroyable without guilt. Abortion is murder.. It is a crying shame it's legal.

[cheval]

Ok thanks just checking. So it is legal? The last I heard about it, it sounded like Congress was voting on a bill to legalize abortion or make it illegal something like that.



I agree. Abortion is really justified murder. What about the child's rights? Just because it was unexpected and unwanted doesn't mean the child doesn't deserve to live. Who are we to decide who should live and who shouldn't?


I'd question who are you to decide a person can't make that decision about their own body.

[mtnmollie]

Hey, it's all a matter of opinion. I don't see anything wrong with abortion; especially when there is a 16 year old who made a stupid mistake and isn't ready to raise a child, being that she's a child herself.



Absoulty correct. Ths child in the womb should pay for someone elses wreck.

Many women who have abortions fall apart emotionally - post tramatic stress syndrom - and need help out of the valley or pit abortion puts them in.

Hugs to women in pain because of abortion-
* and some get hard as a rock like my sister did.*

[Harleys Owner]

I'm glad it's legal. It should be each individual person's choice. No one should be allowed to make the choice of another person. I think it's no one's business what a person does with their own body. There are a lot of instances were pregnancies are mistakes. People that DO take precautions against getting pregnant but for whatever reason the methods fail.

Once again tho, what about the rights of the child being aborted?

If a couple take precautions but still land up pregnant, I'd say there must be a very good reason that God wants that child born for.

[mtnmollie]

I know a black preacher man who survived several botched abortion attempts.

He was not - and is not his mother. LOL>
...and we know it too- or we would not buy foals in the womb.

* Cheval is my friend. Go look in my profile. LOL> * :cowboy:

Ok I'm going to time out before I get in trougle. eh eh

Hugs everybody. I love ya all.

[cheval]

You personally might say that but the person pregnant may not seeing that God as having anything to do with it. Sometimes mistakes are just that. I'm of the opinion that the fetus is just that until a certain point. What is that point? I'm not sure, but I don't believe it's within the first 2 months. I know there's been a lot of discussion by people about when a fetus is actually a child and that some say it's from the time it's conceived and some say when it's aware (more developed).

I don't agree with late term pregnancies with the exception of medical emergencies. Personally if you can't make a decision to abort way before then, well, you have to live with it.

[FredRock]

What about the rights of the child that is aborted?

What about the rights of the woman who has the child in her body? Just because she's pregnant she gives up her decision about her own health/body? What does that make a woman then, just a baby machine? What about the potential home for the "child?" Shouldn't that be taken into consideration too?

I don't see a fetus/embryo as a child. It's just a fetus/embryo; we're perfectly fine with aborting twins and foals in horses, so why are we against abortion in humans? What makes humans better?

As far as pain from an abortion, yeah, it isn't always a simple 1, 2, poof back to normal procedure. It's like a miscarriage in some ways, and it's hard to deal with for some women. At the same time, there are many medications and procedures that can kill you and make you feel like killing yourself, even resulting in psychotic behavior, but we still use those.

[cheval]

Exactly - agree with everything you said, you said it better.

[Harleys Owner]

Horses are not human....there is a big big difference.

I believe life begins at conception. After all from the time of conception growing takes place, growth cannot occur without there being life.

Anyone not sure when life begins...should not take the risk.

The child conceived to a young girl did not ask to be conceived. It was a risk the girl took, and she should live with it.

[Horserider]

What about the rights of the woman who has the child in her body? Just because she's pregnant she gives up her decision about her own health/body? What does that make a woman then, just a baby machine? What about the potential home for the "child?" Shouldn't that be taken into consideration too?

I don't see a fetus/embryo as a child. It's just a fetus/embryo; we're perfectly fine with aborting twins and foals in horses, so why are we against abortion in humans? What makes humans better?

As far as pain from an abortion, yeah, it isn't always a simple 1, 2, poof back to normal procedure. It's like a miscarriage in some ways, and it's hard to deal with for some women. At the same time, there are many medications and procedures that can kill you and make you feel like killing yourself, even resulting in psychotic behavior, but we still use those.

A woman who decides to murder her own child doesn't have rights anymore. I can understand abortion for health reasons only. Because you accidentally got pregnant isn't a good enough reason. I don't believe in aborting foals either (except in the case of twins when the mare's life can be at risk). Who's to say you have the right to murder your own child? Mothers out there could you imagine murdering your kid? Is there really any difference?

[mlle_beau]

Let's think of abortion in another way. How about special cases? Such as where a child will be born horribly disfigured and handicapped and will never be able to have a comfortable, let alone good, life. Or where rape or incest is involved. But particularly where a child will be born with the sort of problems I mentioned above. I think it is extraordinarily cruel to NOT abort the fetus, not to mention selfish.

[mlle_beau]

ALSO, if you ban abortion it won't stop women from getting them. But then you will have them going to back alley, unsafe clinics with people doing the procedure who might not even be trained to do that sort of thing. Or you will have women sticking coat hangers inside themselves to try to abort the fetus. If you ban abortion you will have women dying from it.

[FredRock]

Horses are not human....there is a big big difference.

If you're so inclined that an abortion is murder, then you're murdering a foal. Taking a life is taking a life, human or not.

[cheval]

A person that doesn't have the means financially or mentally shouldn't be having kids either and that's not an age thing. There are plenty of non-teens that shouldn't be having kids.

Thankfully we live in a country where it is a choice and no one else's business what decision is made in that regard. Banning abortion will just make it more dangerous for the people to get them. It will not stop them.

EVERY person has the right to make that decision.

[FredRock]

Agreed Cheval! Well said.

[APPYT]

I'm glad it's legal. *snip* I think it's no one's business what a person does with their own body. There are a lot of instances were pregnancies are mistakes.*snip*

I can assure you it is not legal for you(anyone) to go out and chop off your toes, fingers or poke out your eye. A person would be hospitalized with mental issues if they did that. It is also not legal to get tubes tied until a Dr decides you are old enough to realize the consequences. Why should it be legal to end the life of an unborn human being?

[Toodlestoo]

Well, I have a different take on the subject--below is a picture of my two kids that are mine because the mothers chose to give them up for adoption rather than abort them!
http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?pictureid=1185&albumid=151&dl=1223852593&thumb=1 (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/album.php?albumid=151&pictureid=1185)

They are the joy of our lives and my daughter is a 2nd grade teacher at an inner-city school in Baltimore in one of the most high crime areas in the country. She said she wants to "give back" for the wonderful life she has been given.

You have to have consequences for your behaviour and in this day and age, everyone knows you can get pregnant if you have sex. Step up to the plate and do the right thing and not take the easy way out!

[APPYT]

I'd question who are you to decide a person can't make that decision about their own body.

I am a daughter, a sister, an aunt, a niece, a mother and a grandmother. I am a human being who will attempt to be a voice for those who cannot speak, the Unborn.

[palomino]

I was adopted, and not into the greatest family, either. Just because you let the kid live and adopt it out does NOT guarantee a better life.
I am glad its legal, and the choices are ours to make. I disagree with using it as a form of birth control, though. Responsibility is huge for that decision, but I also have friends that have gotten them as teens, and I dont hate them for it.

[cheval]

But like I said, sometimes you do take all the precautions and you get pregnant, you hear about it all the time. It all depends on what a person defines as human. I think that will be an eternal debate.

There are a lot of mental issues for a kid who gets pregnant and gives them up for adoption too. I think if THAT person decides to go the adoption route, that's great. It's still THEIR decision to do. Same as if they decide to get an abortion. Again, it's about choice and I'll say til the cows come home, no one has the right to make that choice for someone else.

[mlle_beau]

I think that for a normal "oops" pregnancy with a baby that doesn't have problems, then the mother should choose adoption before abortion. She should be able to get an abortion if she wants, though. It is her body, like some others said. So I think abortion should remain legalized under the same terms it is already on.

[APPYT]

What about the rights of the woman who has the child in her body? *snip*
I don't see a fetus/embryo as a child. It's just a fetus/embryo; we're perfectly fine with aborting twins and foals in horses, so why are we against abortion in humans? What makes humans better?
A.

One, what? she can't take 9 months out of her busy life to allow another to live?

two, it doesn't really matter when any of US think human?life begins. It begins.

three, many and not so many years ago some did not see blacks as "human" in the same way as "whites".. Nor did some see "Jews" as human, at least not enough to let them live..

I am not attacking anyone on this board, but I will defend life.

[Toodlestoo]

. Again, it's about choice and I'll say til the cows come home, no one has the right to make that choice for someone else.

I do agree with you on this Cheval. I would never tell someone else what to do with their body. It's a totally personal decision. You just have to live with whatever choice you make and hopefully, make the right decision for yourself. But you are ending a life--a teeny tiny life.

[cheval]

Some women don't want to be pregnant. They do what they can and sometimes it still happens. This happened to a friend of mine who I walked with to the clinic because she was worried about the protesters. Talk about a hateful group of people.

[mtnmollie]

I have heard it said that we sell body parts this nation. Arms, legs, ...

Make sure your make up collegen is animal source...

My forum friend H-Nut 's daughter Diane was a premmie that
Nut could hold in her hand. Very fragile little life.

Toodles you are very fourtunate. Many have to go overseas to adopt-
babies are hard to find here. Not enough supply for the demand.

Amy had a teenage preg she decided to carry to term.
She was quite harrassed for her decision. She gave up her baby to a special home-
Amy knows her daughter.

Later Amy got married and had trouble having children.

[cheval]

three, many and not so many years ago some did not see blacks as "human" in the same way as "whites".. Nor did some see "Jews" as human, at least not enough to let them live..



So what's the point of that statement? Those same people probably never thought they'd see gay marriages legalized but it is in more and more states every year. I don't see what that has to do with the idea of abortion.

[Toodlestoo]

[quote=mtnmollie;9239]legs, ...

.

Toodles you are very fourtunate. Many have to go overseas to adopt-
babies are hard to find here. Not enough supply for the demand.



My husband and I are the luckiest people alive. Our children have been nothing but a joy to us. Sure, we've had the usual problems but not a day goes by that I don't thank God for them!

[Blue]

Unfortunately if it wasn't legal people will still figure out ways to have it done. It's horrible. I don't necissarily "love" kids, nor do I want any, but I still am against abortion.

[Remali]

I think it is a personal choice, abortion should stay legal and all women should have that choice.

[mtnmollie]

...three, many and not so many years ago some did not see blacks as "human" in the same way as "whites".. Nor did some see "Jews" as human, at least not enough to let them live.. .



Same with the red man- who had no rights. The only good Indian is a dead Indian.

That was choice then...

[Cat]

I agree Remali. Its a personal choice.

And those that want to bring in that its "God's choice" and humans are above animals and what not - those are your personal beliefs - not everyone elses. Religion and state are to remain seperate, right?

[APPYT]

ALSO, if you ban abortion it won't stop women from getting them. But then you will have them going to back alley, unsafe clinics with people doing the procedure who might not even be trained to do that sort of thing. Or you will have women sticking coat hangers inside themselves to try to abort the fetus. If you ban abortion you will have women dying from it.

Unfortunately that has and no doubt would happen again.. That should not make a difference.. Right is right and wrong is wrong.. If you break a law you know there is a consequence. However, in the past there was a very very big stigma against out of wedlock pregnancy. Not so in this day. There should be no reason for a woman to want to kill her child. Especially if it would endanger her health. *it was legal before RoevsWade to abort if the mothers life is in danger* RvsW was nothing but a bid to allow abortion upon demand. Oh me oh my, this will inconvience me.. I shed not tears for those who murder their own children with no remorse. I do shed tears for those who realize the horror they have done.

[APPYT]

*snip* Again, it's about choice and I'll say til the cows come home, no one has the right to make that choice for someone else.
But you see the choice is being made to end a life, someone elses..

[Aina]

Ever heard the saying "Your rights to throw your fist ends where my face begins"
I think it is the same way with pregnancy. Your right to do with your body what you want ends when you are carrying another life inside of yours.
It is considered double homicide if someone kills a pregnant woman. Why isn't it homicide when a woman kills her baby?
If a preemie is born and someone kills it then it is homicide. If the same baby is killed inside the womb it is "just an abortion"
She had a choice when she had sex. She has the choice to give the baby up for adoption.
Now, people can always argue from extremes, rape, incest, severely deformed fetus. However, those are special cases and arguing from extremes is the worst form of an argument. I know. I've done it myself a few times. I don't think abortion should be blanketed illegal. There are special cases. But generally it should be.

Anyways, no one has complete control of their body. Right now, I could not go walking into a drug store and ask for prescription pain meds, even if I had the money. Why not? It is my body, it should be my choice. I'll use them at home, no one else will get hurt...
Heck, why can't I use weed or meth for that matter? As long as it is at home where I couldn't hurt anyone else with it. Or maybe they should have drug houses where you go and get a fix and that is the only place it is legal to do it. That way they could make sure you wouldn't hurt anyone else while you were high...
I don't see a moral problem with it, and I am a devout Christian. The only problem it is is illegal. Ok, there is that verse about your body being a temple to the Lord, but Big Macs already broke that rule.
But in the end, there is a reason for drugs being illegal or you have to have a prescription for them. (Not sure what it is... oh crud, now I'm sounding like a druggie, lol.) I believe it should be the same way with an abortion.

In reality I think abortion is a symptom of a bigger problem. America lives by what Obama said. "If my kid makes a mistake I don't want her to be punished..."
But isn't that what has gotten us into trouble in the first place? We no longer want to have to live with the consequences of our actions. When something doesn't work out right the mantra is "We have rights!"
Kids should learn to take responsibilities for their actions. If it means letting them have a child and live through that hardship, they will be a better person for it. Yes, we should support them in every way possible, but they should have to live with the consequences of their actions.
In America we are given a lot of choices and have a lot of "rights" but when we choose to no longer be accountable for our actions someday someone else will and they won't care about our "rights"

[APPYT]

So what's the point of that statement? Those same people probably never thought they'd see gay marriages legalized but it is in more and more states every year. I don't see what that has to do with the idea of abortion.

I believe you, among others, stated that you didn't believe they are "human" early in the pregnancy, then what are they, these zygots/whatever people want to call the unborn at less than 2-3 months? If they are not human, what are they? Just because some do not believe they are "real humans" yet, does not make it so, thus the comparison. What do gay marriages have to do with abortion?

[APPYT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by APPYT View Post
...three, many and not so many years ago some did not see blacks as "human" in the same way as "whites".. Nor did some see "Jews" as human, at least not enough to let them live.. .
Same with the red man- who had no rights. The only good Indian is a dead Indian.

That was choice then...
__________________

exactly.. Abortion on demand is a huge step back for civilization. It dehumanizes all life.

[Cat]

Drugs and abortion are two different things and are comparing apples to oranges. If you think "using them at home and no one else will get hurt" - um obviously you have never had a family member use drugs (prescriptions and illegals) "at home" and you would know how utterly rediculous that statement is. And some meds - such as antibiotics - need to be regulated because their mis-use could hurt us ALL as the different strains will build up resistance to those drugs even faster. Plus there is the whole money factor for pharmaceutical companies and insurance companies - couldn't get their huge cut if it was all "over the counter".

And quite frankly I see a different spin on "Your right to throw your fists ends where my face begins." To me that quite clearly says your right to throw your morals and beliefs ends where my body and my own morals and beliefs begin.

[Sundays Man]

It would be interesting to hear what some would say about the lady I saw on t.v. the other night that was an abortion survivor. She was still alive after an attempt to abort her failed (late term). She was supposed to have been killed anyway, but a nurse took her to safety and she is in her 20's today. VERY interesting person and needless to say pro life advocate. I think if any of us had to work in an abortion clinic for any period, many minds would be changed. It's real easy to be a pro choice advocate when we sit in our sterile world and don't have to deal with the victims.

[Cat]

I see we are making assumptions on other people's lives now, aren't we?

[APPYT]

Cat, it is NOT your body.. It is the body of a separate being. A being that will grow and be born if allowed to. This is a separate person.. That is the whole point, they whole defense for those who oppose the murder of innocent children. Women cannot do what they want with their bodies now. Neither can men.. Think it is go try mutilating your body and see how fast you end up in a hospital getting help whether you want it or not. I don't understand why that doesn't make sense to people.. I really don't.

[APPYT]

I see we are making assumptions on other people's lives now, aren't we?

Who is? I can't tell what post is being responded to without a qoute. What am I missing?

[Cat]

I don't believe its a seperate being - it can NOT survive away from the woman's body then it is still part of her body. Late-term abortions are a seperate matter and I do not agree with those because those could survive out of the woman's body.

[Cat]

Who is? I can't tell what post is being responded to without a qoute. What am I missing?


Look at the post right above the one I wrote - that is the one I am responding to.

[APPYT]

Cat, of course it is a separate being. Heck, a baby cannot survive outside it's mothers body if nobody takes care of it. The baby invitro is being nourished by his/her mother. Still is not a piece of her body.

[Aina]

Ok, so what about the druggies that have no family and want to use at home? Should they be allowed? Most druggies lose their family anyways.
It isn't different. You think someone in your family having an abortion doesn't hurt another family member? That is a lie, personal experience speaking here. Unplanned pregnancy is like licking a flagpole in the middle of winter. You aint getting out of it without a lot of pain and leaving a little bit of you behind. When you see another family member who had been bubbly and happy stuggle with depression after an abortion it doesn't just hurt them.

[APPYT]

Look at the post right above the one I wrote - that is the one I am responding to.

thank you, I wasn't sure

[Cat]

Cat, of course it is a separate being. Heck, a baby cannot survive outside it's mothers body if nobody takes care of it. The baby invitro is being nourished by his/her mother. Still is not a piece of her body.


A baby can survive outside its mothers body - anyone can care for it, it does not need to be the mother. A fetus does not have that option, so it is part of the mother. And really this is going to be one of those points that we will go round and round on.

[APPYT]

*snip* when you see another family member who had been bubbly and happy stuggle with depression after an abortion it doesn't just hurt them.

{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}

[APPYT]

A baby can survive outside its mothers body - anyone can care for it, it does not need to be the mother. A fetus does not have that option, so it is part of the mother. And really this is going to be one of those points that we will go round and round on.

Yes it will be, so we'll just end that point here I recon. ;)

A fetus is a baby. Tain't chopped liver, tain't a splinter. :)

Legally it is murder when an outsider kills a baby invitro. Why is it not when the babe's own mother does it? :cry:

[dustys_girlly]

i strongly believe that it it the womans choice, and always the womans choice. i had a friend in college that was barely getting by, she was adopted and had great parents. she lived alone in a run down house because that was all sh could afford, she was taking only a few classes because that was all she had time to do with work. her boyfriend was a creep but did not find out till later, but while she was with him she got pregnant. she could barley take care of herself as is let alone try to when pregnant and be anywhere near healthy. i went with her when she got the abortion. i would do it again if she asks. i have seen people that have 6 kids because they dont believe in abortions. they work minimum wage jobs because they never got a GED and are barley getting by. then they live off W.I.C. and welfare which by the way we pay for! i will not paying for someone else's mistakes

[Ranger44]

I hate to get into this one for so many reasons but, when is the "fetus" old enough to survive without it's mother? Premature babies have survived at what stage of development?

Don't some babies/fetuses start outside the mother these days for example, invetro?

[mtnmollie]

It would be interesting to hear what some would say about the lady I saw on t.v. the other night that was an abortion survivor. She was still alive after an attempt to abort her failed (late term). She was supposed to have been killed anyway, but a nurse took her to safety and she is in her 20's today. VERY interesting person and needless to say pro life advocate. I think if any of us had to work in an abortion clinic for any period, many minds would be changed. It's real easy to be a pro choice advocate when we sit in our sterile world and don't have to deal with the victims.

Was that GiAnna? I read her book.

She found other abortion survivors.

They used saliene solotion on her- and she freaks at fires!
The sound reminds her of the terror in the womb.

[Cat]

Ok, so what about the druggies that have no family and want to use at home? Should they be allowed? Most druggies lose their family anyways.
It isn't different. You think someone in your family having an abortion doesn't hurt another family member? That is a lie, personal experience speaking here. Unplanned pregnancy is like licking a flagpole in the middle of winter. You aint getting out of it without a lot of pain and leaving a little bit of you behind. When you see another family member who had been bubbly and happy stuggle with depression after an abortion it doesn't just hurt them.

Your comment on most druggies lose their family anyways is very true. And if someone wants to use illegal drugs in their own home, quite honestly I don't care as long as it is kept away from other people. I actually liked your idea of a "drug center" where they all could go and shoot up and stay there when they feel the need - away from everyone else while they are high. Might actually be a solution.

And trust me - there is a reason I made the "making asumptions" comment to Sundaysman. I've helped friends through abortions, I know a person who almost lost her life giving birth to a child she didn't want and wanted to abort but her parents would not let her - she died mentally and almost died physically - trust me the people I know who went through the abortions thrived much better, I've seen the results of a family member years later wondering about a baby she gave up for adoption and the FEAR that she may meet him someday, I have LIVED the life of a unwanted child, born right after graduation and the stigma and trials it has presented in my own life and not knowing who my own father was (Not knowing who a parent is - an cause life problems with genetic diseases that could be managed better if you had known the chance was there for you to get it - tests could have been run earlier on), and I have been friends with people who were given up as babies as well and how those outcomes have adversly effected their lives.

There are many life experiences I have dealt with that have made me extremely pro-choice, and really, no words here will change my mind. So I will probably bow out of this now before I say anything that would hurt anyone here.

[Aina]

Born at 22 weeks old.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-437236/Born-just-22-weeks--Amilla-allowed-home.html

"Amillia's incredible story will reignite the debate over Britain's abortion laws, which campaigners say must be updated in the light of recent medical advances.
Babies can still be aborted for non-medical reasons at up to 24 weeks. Recent evidence shows that, of those born at 25 weeks, half of them manage to live."

[mtnmollie]

Little baby taken from the womb-
hand clutching- wriggling with life- head punctured -
brains sucked out alive-
momma cried , I'm sorry little life.

Its legal to kill it if part of it is in the womb.

But it is illigal if the entire thing is out of the womb,
for then it becomes a baby. :rolleyes:

[Cat]

Legally it is murder when an outsider kills a baby invitro. Why is it not when the babe's own mother does it?

Do you agree with everything that is currently a law or ruling that the government is following? Well obviously you don't or we wouldn't be discussing abortion. I don't either, and this is one example.

[cloedoll]

All I can say is, cheval/FredRock I agree with you 120% with everything you have said....

[Aina]

As I said, you aint getting out of it with a LOT of pain and leaving a little bit of you behind any way you cut it.
And I have seen both sides. My bi-polar cousin got knocked up by a married guy. Oh, and they were homeless until my grandma paid for them to get to her mothers house. The whole thing is a drama worthy of it's own soap opera. I really don't think my cousin should keep the baby. She is too unstable and the guy who got her pregnant sounds like a creep. There could also be some medical problems because of her past problems. But do I want to kill it? No. It could avoid some problems, but it would exacerbate others. Everything is a trade off. The real question becomes: when is the price to high?

[mtnmollie]

I hate to get into this one for so many reasons but, when is the "fetus" old enough to survive without it's mother? Premature babies have survived at what stage of development?

Don't some babies/fetuses start outside the mother these days for example, invetro?

My forum friend Horse Nuts daughter was pretty little She fit in her hand.
I saw a picture. Wow! Tha't your daughter Diane? wow!

[Horserider]

i have seen people that have 6 kids because they dont believe in abortions. they work minimum wage jobs because they never got a GED and are barley getting by. then they live off W.I.C. and welfare which by the way we pay for! i will not paying for someone else's mistakes

That is another issue entirely. They are not living off tax payer money because they don't believe in abortion. They're living of it because they obviously don't care to use protection. We all know what it takes to make a baby. It doesn't just randomly happen.

For those of you who are pro-abortion how would YOU feel if someone tried to murder you before you were even born? Someone tried to murder you before you had even left your mother's womb? And how would you feel if that person who tried to murder you was your mother. It's called abortion to make it sound a little more attractive. But what it really is, is murder. :mad: Call it what you want it's still murder and no matter if it's in the womb or not it's still a baby with life and feelings. How many of you pro-abortion people are also anti-horse slaughter? You can't say we can't murder horses for food we don't eat and say we should murder children that aren't even born. Abortion is horrible. If a criminal murders somebody he's arrested and brought to justice. But if a mother murders her own child it's just an abortion. Doesn't anyone else see something wrong with that?

[mtnmollie]

I think we should be able to kil 'em until at lest age three.

When they went through the terrible twos if they knew we could slay them- then
maybe they would not be such brats.

:eek:


Them little guys are pretty helpless- need a keeper- and
fairly useless - just like the child in the womb. :rolleyes:

[APPYT]

Do you agree with everything that is currently a law or ruling that the government is following? Well obviously you don't or we wouldn't be discussing abortion. I don't either, and this is one example.

We agree that we do not agree. ;) Opposite side of that argument as well. I also do not believe in assisted suicide.. Just to be clear, I am prolife no matter the age.

[rocknK]

In my life there is right & wrong, life & death, black & white. Abortion is on of those grey areas that makes my head hurt. I always wonder how many really fine people have never been allowed to draw breath becuase of it. It also hurts my heart.

[cheval]

Well, if someone tried to murder me before I was born, I wouldn't know would I? Therefore, I could care less. That's not a very good arguement.

These topics are never any good. All they do is promote a negative vibe. There are those who are pro-choice and those that are pro-life and they aren't going to meet in between.

[Cat]

Yes it will be, so we'll just end that point here I recon. ;)

A fetus is a baby. Tain't chopped liver, tain't a splinter. :)

Legally it is murder when an outsider kills a baby invitro. Why is it not when the babe's own mother does it? :cry:

That is another issue entirely. They are not living off tax payer money because they don't believe in abortion. They're living of it because they obviously don't care to use protection. We all know what it takes to make a baby. It doesn't just randomly happen.

For those of you who are pro-abortion how would YOU feel if someone tried to murder you before you were even born? Someone tried to murder you before you had even left your mother's womb? And how would you feel if that person who tried to murder you was your mother. It's called abortion to make it sound a little more attractive. But what it really is, is murder. :mad: Call it what you want it's still murder and no matter if it's in the womb or not it's still a baby with life and feelings. How many of you pro-abortion people are also anti-horse slaughter? You can't say we can't murder horses for food we don't eat and say we should murder children that aren't even born. Abortion is horrible. If a criminal murders somebody he's arrested and brought to justice. But if a mother murders her own child it's just an abortion. Doesn't anyone else see something wrong with that?

I know I said I was going to be done, but just want to answer this. Tried to murder me before I was born? I don't agree that it is murder, but I know what you are asking and will answer. I wouldn't have known I was me, so I wouldn't have cared. If my mother told me today she had tried to abort me but I had survived? Wouldn't be surprised considering the circumstances - I would have done the same thing if I was in her shoes. I would probably make some smart ass comment to her about being stuborn even back then.

And to your other question - I am pro-horse slaughter - I would just prefer it to be made more humane.

Ok, I think I answered all the questions. I'm done with this thread for the night.

[cloedoll]

Well, if someone tried to murder me before I was born, I wouldn't know would I? Therefore, I could care less. That's not a very good arguement.Well, I think it's a good argument. I don't remember things even when I was six. I would be happy if my mom thought about her and me before I was born. If it wasn't a good environment, they wouldn't be able to afford me, etc. I wouldn't want to be brought into that life. If I was conceived when my mom was in high school, I don't want to be a party pooper. I'd be glad she made a better choice for herself and I don't think that's selfish. Again, how would I even know.


These topics are never any good. All they do is promote a negative vibe. There are those who are pro-choice and those that are pro-life and they aren't going to meet in between.Ditto! What is ever the point of this discussion? Nobody is going to change their mind about how they feel on the subject, it's just going to upset/frustrate each other. If you are pro-life, good for you. If you are pro-choice, good for you. Don't try to change others mind, though. It's your choice and opinion and you are 100% entitled to it and nobody should be trying to make you change it, in my opinion. I think everyone should state their opinion and leave it at that. Don't get mad at others for their beliefs/feelings/thoughts on the subject and don't try to change their mind...please?

[mtnmollie]

We agree that we do not agree. ;) Opposite side of that argument as well. I also do not believe in assisted suicide.. Just to be clear, I am prolife no matter the age.

If we are going to kill the young, we might as well kill the old too.

but wait- we all ready are.


Terry Shivo was just one of many in Florida.

On my wall ther is a pict of a very young man in handcuffs. His crime?
Trying to bring a drink to a thirsty woman on death row.

Her crime? Her crime was she took too long to kill off.

Nazi's killed people this way. It is a horrible way to die.

I'd rather take a bullet myself; than die the slow death of starvation.

[cheval]

Well I believe in assisted suicide, abortion and humane horse slaughter. I am truely the axis of evil.

[mtnmollie]

Well I believe in assisted suicide, abortion and humane horse slaughter. I am truely the axis of evil.

I believe in horse slaughter.

But God loves people more than anything.

I humbly disagree- you are not the axis of evil, my dear.

Your just my friend with a different opinion.

Oh how boring it would be if we all thought alike.

Who could correct me if I missed the way? :cowboy:

[APPYT]

What is ever the point of this discussion? Nobody is going to change their mind about how they feel on the subject,

People do change their minds every day. If no one tried to change minds Roe vs Wade would not have happened either. ;)

[cloedoll]

People do change their minds every day. If no one tried to change minds Roe vs Wade would not have happened either. ;)Well, I think this is causing more bad than good and I think anybody who came to this thread in the first place was confident in their thought on this and not planning on changing their mind anytime soon. I think you have to be informed before making the decision of being pro-choice or pro-life, you don't just decide without knowing everything to it and the 'side' (can't think of a better word) you are taking. So why would one change their mind as far as this goes? They already have their mind set. People can rely on other sources (example: an expert, such as a doctor) if they are unsure of how they feel on the situation or want more facts about something relative to this subject. I really do hate labels (pro-choice, pro-life) you are what you are and are entitled to be who you want to be. Why is your decision (pro-choice/pro-life) any better than someone elses? I know you didn't say that, but that is the vibe I'm getting from you. Or why do you feel the need to keep coming back to this thread and re-stating your stance on the subject when you already have stated it more than once?

[cheval]

Dang girl! Well written reply. Very true.

[dustys_girlly]

Well, I think this is causing more bad than good and I think anybody who came to this thread in the first place was confident in their thought on this and not planning on changing their mind anytime soon. I think you have to be informed before making the decision of being pro-choice or pro-life, you don't just decide without knowing everything to it and the 'side' (can't think of a better word) you are taking. So why would one change their mind as far as this goes? They already have their mind set. People can rely on other sources (example: an expert, such as a doctor) if they are unsure of how they feel on the situation or want more facts about something relative to this subject. I really do hate labels (pro-choice, pro-life) you are what you are and are entitled to be who you want to be. Why is your decision (pro-choice/pro-life) any better than someone elses? I know you didn't say that, but that is the vibe I'm getting from you. Or why do you feel the need to keep coming back to this thread and re-stating your stance on the subject when you already have stated it more than once?

all i can say is you go gril. that was very well put.

[Whitedresswind]

I have read through this entire discussion, and it really does interest me (peoples conflicting views)
I am only 17, but I have studied abortion, and if you really get into depth about it, if you are entirely informed (not saying I am) then I think you would agree that it is murder no matter the age (would it be murder to kill an elder living on machines? Just because they are relying on something to keep them alive, doesn't mean they aren't alive as well.) Of course I believe in abstinence (wouldn't that just solve a lot of problems?) I could talk on the subject all night, but no one really cares what I have to say, plus, I don't want any trouble. This is a very tender subject, I must agree its going to hit some sore spots, maybe do a little worse then good, but idk.

[cloedoll]

I have read through this entire discussion, and it really does interest me (peoples conflicting views)
I am only 17, but I have studied abortion, and if you really get into depth about it, if you are entirely informed (not saying I am) then I think you would agree that it is murder no matter the age (would it be murder to kill an elder living on machines? Just because they are relying on something to keep them alive, doesn't mean they aren't alive as well.) Of course I believe in abstinence (wouldn't that just solve a lot of problems?) I could talk on the subject all night, but no one really cares what I have to say, plus, I don't want any trouble. This is a very tender subject, I must agree its going to hit some sore spots, maybe do a little worse then good, but idk.Well I'm only fourteen and I am very informed. I have seen all the lovely pictures of the fetus after it's aborted it doesn't effect my decision one bit. It doesn't make me sad. None of that. I stand by my decision of pro-choice and most definitely do not see abortion as murder or anything like that. I don't see how your example of the elder relates to this subject. That is the families decision, just like when it comes to abortion it is the mother's decision. We do like to hear from you, by the way. ;)

[Whitedresswind]

Someone had said that since it was relying on the mother it wasn't a life or not separate. Of course I am not trying to change anyone's minds, just saying what I think. And about the pictures, well, I guess its just strange to me that someone wouldn't really feel anything about that, but again, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and I have to remember people feel differently then I do about things.

[cloedoll]

Someone had said that since it was relying on the mother it wasn't a life or not separate. Of course I am not trying to change anyone's minds, just saying what I think.

Well I still don't see how it relates to the topic or shows an example/point.

And about the pictures, well, I guess its just strange to me that someone wouldn't really feel anything about thatThat's your opinion about how others should and shouldn't feel, though.

Everyone is aloud to feel/think what they want < - - and that's not an opinion, but a fact that I often think people forget.

Just sayin', no harsh feelings.

[APPYT]

Well, I think this is causing more bad than good and I think anybody who came to this thread in the first place was confident in their thought on this and not planning on changing their mind anytime soon. I think you have to be informed before making the decision of being pro-choice or pro-life, you don't just decide without knowing everything to it and the 'side' (can't think of a better word) you are taking. So why would one change their mind as far as this goes? They already have their mind set. People can rely on other sources (example: an expert, such as a doctor) if they are unsure of how they feel on the situation or want more facts about something relative to this subject. I really do hate labels (pro-choice, pro-life) you are what you are and are entitled to be who you want to be. Why is your decision (pro-choice/pro-life) any better than someone elses? I know you didn't say that, but that is the vibe I'm getting from you. Or why do you feel the need to keep coming back to this thread and re-stating your stance on the subject when you already have stated it more than once?

I'm sorry if my "passion" disturbs you. :( However, this is a subject that is very important to me. I don't get the feeling from this thread that people are getting mad at each other. I hope not anyway. I am not trying to make enemies here. :) I don't believe everyone who chooses a "side" does so after great thought and study. Some simply fall into it. *I'm old and I know these things* lol I once felt it was not for me, but I didn't have any strong feelings about what others did. I grew into my currant stance. I guess you are reading my vibes. OF course I feel strongly that what I say is right. Otherwise I wouldn't say it over and over. ;) If this thread wakes up one person who reads it, I will consider it to be time well spent.

Again I do not feel it is doing harm to discuss it as long as nobody starts throwing insults at others. If the thread turns into a fight then the mods will handle it. I truly hope it doesn't.

Btw, I didn't start the thread.. ;)

[Whitedresswind]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whitedresswind http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/images/styles/beige/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?p=9639#post9639)
Someone had said that since it was relying on the mother it wasn't a life or not separate. Of course I am not trying to change anyone's minds, just saying what I think.

Well I still don't see how it relates to the topic or shows an example/point.

Quote:
And about the pictures, well, I guess its just strange to me that someone wouldn't really feel anything about that
That's your opinion about how others should and shouldn't feel, though.

Everyone is aloud to feel/think what they want < - - and that's not an opinion, but a fact that I often think people forget.

Just sayin', no harsh feelings.

No, I know that's what I said, people feel differently then I do, and I have to remember that. :)

If someone has to rely on someone or something else to live, its still alive, and separate (a baby, older person, ill, etc.) so killing that life is still murder. lol,ok, so maybe its not a great example, its hard to explain, but it makes sence to me. Well, im out, but intersting views. no hard feelings =)

[cloedoll]

I'm sorry if my "passion" disturbs you. :( However, this is a subject that is very important to me. I don't get the feeling from this thread that people are getting mad at each other. I hope not anyway. I am not trying to make enemies here. :) I don't believe everyone who chooses a "side" does so after great thought and study. Some simply fall into it. *I'm old and I know these things* lol I once felt it was not for me, but I didn't have any strong feelings about what others did. I grew into my currant stance. I guess you are reading my vibes. OF course I feel strongly that what I say is right. Otherwise I wouldn't say it over and over. ;) If this thread wakes up one person who reads it, I will consider it to be time well spent.

Again I do not feel it is doing harm to discuss it as long as nobody starts throwing insults at others. If the thread turns into a fight then the mods will handle it. I truly hope it doesn't.

Btw, I didn't start the thread.. ;)Your passion disturbs me because you are trying to change others thoughts that they are entitled to. It is as silly as me trying to make you change your favorite color, it's your choice and you don't have to like the color I do. Why is this so important to you? Just because others are thinking other things than you are? We are aloud to and your opinion/stance on this is no better than others, or more right. Again, I believe whoever clicked on this thread knew what they are talking about, stand by their 'side' and wanted to state their opinion on the subject/original post. If I continue to say that it is unfair of you to want to make others think/feel the way you do, will you 'wake up' and stop stating your opinion countless times and saying others are wrong? I don't think so. I am aware you didn't start the thread, I am also aware that I did not have to click on this thread, but I did because I wanted to state my opinion - that's what it started off as. Now I am seeing that you are trying to change other's decisions/thoughts/feelings on the matter and I'm obviously speaking up about it because I think it is unfair of you to expect others to change their mind/ways/thoughts/feelings to yours because you think your ways/thoughts/stance on this/feelings/etc. are better and is the right one/way to be.

[APPYT]

I'm obviously speaking up about it because I think it is unfair of you to expect others to change their mind/ways/thoughts/feelings to yours because you think your ways/thoughts/stance on this/feelings/etc. is better and the right one.

LOL, I don't "expect" to change anyones mind.. I only hope to. *sigh* Calm down..
You are young. You will change your mind on many many subjects as you grow up..

[cloedoll]

LOL, I don't "expect" to change anyones mind.. I only hope to. *sigh* Calm down..
You are young. You will change your mind on many many subjects as you grow up.. I'm not rowled up. I won't understand why you "hope" to change other's minds. Invent a brain warping machine if you want us all to be alike. ;) I don't think your second statement is fair, you do not know that for certain and just because I'm young I can't keep my mind set on a certain thing? Heck, I might not even make it to twenty, I can only hope. ;)

Edited to say: Honestly, I'm not rowled up. I am just saying what I think raw and un-edited (well edited a few times, but I never removed anything, just added things and fixed my spelling). Lol. xD

[APPYT]

Glad you aren't riled up. I wasn't sure. ;) It's late and I have got to get to bed but I wanted to answer your last post first.

I didn't say I want everyone to be alike.. Of course I do wish everyone in the world could respect the lives and the right to life of all other people. It will never happen tho.

All people change their minds on different subjects as they grow up, even after they are grown up. lol No, you may not make it to 20, tho I sure hope you do. I may not wake up tomorrow, but I sure hope I do. The odds are we both will meet those goals. *remember I am ancient, old enough to be your gramma even*. LOL Now, don't get mad on me. Just sayin..

Good night Cloedoll

[cloedoll]

I guess I know the things I have my mind set on. Just like you are set on your stance with this subject, so am I. I know I'm not changing my mind and you know you aren't changing yours. I don't expect/hope for you to change your mind, I can only hope you don't expect/hope me to change my mind. If you do, I guess that's fine, because it's my mind and no matter who hopes/wishes for it to be changed, it's my mind and nobody can change that! :D And lol! I hope you wake up tomorrow, too and I hope I make it to twenty. Agree to disagree?

Nightnight! (:

[APPYT]

Agreed to disagree. :) G'night again

[alittleoffkey]

The Terri Schiavo comment wasn't really applicable - if I were her, I would've wanted to be allowed to die years before they let me. She was trapped in her own body, being kept alive by machines and doctors... a horrible way to "live". :(

I'm 100% against abortion. I think it's wrong and I would never consider it outside of a circumstance where I knew I would die unless it were performed. But I can understand why women want to get abortions - kids are scary. Birth is a painful and dangerous process, even with all the great medical advances we've had, even in the past 10 years and I applaud any woman who is willing to go through it just for the sake of another person. ;)

In a perfect world abortion wouldn't exist, it wouldn't need to exist... and I'm against any and all abortions... and I do think that, outside of medical reasons, abortions outside of the first trimester should be made illegal, regardless (small steps are more important that big ones). By the third month I'd hazard to guess that at least 90% of women who are pregnant, know they're pregnant. I don't care if you're 16 or 40 - you probably have that much information, and you've had the time to discuss it with your parents or significant other or your doctor and have had time to make that particular decision.

Third trimester abortions are stupid - and that's a word I don't take lightly. There are parents that spend hundreds of thousands or more to keep infants born early in that trimester alive and a woman has no business killing hers just because she suddenly realized what an inconvenience birth will be. She's had the time to make that decision. Sex leads to kids, the sooner our society realizes that - the better.

And yes, this is a very heated topic, full of very well-thought-out opinions... but as long as the debate stays friendly (which I really think this one has, for the most part) I'm all for it. You can't stick a bunch of horse people - notoriously opinionated and headstrong by nature - in a public place, long-term and not expect them to discuss things that mean the most to them. :) You all know we'll get around to everything from the death penalty to education eventually. :D

[cloedoll]

And yes, this is a very heated topic, full of very well-thought-out opinions... but as long as the debate stays friendly (which I really think this one has, for the most part) I'm all for it. You can't stick a bunch of horse people - notoriously opinionated and headstrong by nature - in a public place, long-term and not expect them to discuss things that mean the most to them. :) You all know we'll get around to everything from the death penalty to education eventually. :DHaha, so true! I never remind the debates, I like them actually, I just mind when one person thinks their right and that's that - nothing else to it. Lol. xD

[rocknK]

Cloe, not trying to change your mind, but I'd like to ask. How many newborns have you held? How many newborns have you tickled under the chin & watched them giggle & squirm?? How many times have you gotten up gladly at 2am to change a diaper or feed baby?? How many nights have you held & rocked a cranky baby to have them fall asleep in your arms?? These are only a few of the things that are so precious to a parent. When it comes right down to it life is all that matters in this world. The rest is just a bunch of stuff. Didn't mean to lecture, just tell a parents side of the story. Good luck to you.

[NJrider]

three, many and not so many years ago some did not see blacks as "human" in the same way as "whites".. Nor did some see "Jews" as human, at least not enough to let them live..


I am finding it very difficult to understand how you can equate abortion to the above quote. To me it's sounds like you're saying that killing a fully developed, independent, LIVING person is the same as having an abortion. And there is a HUGE difference.

Do the people who are pro-life think that the mother really doesn't matter as long as that fetus survives? And what happens when the baby is born? Then suddenly all the supporters vanish—their job is done and it really doesn't matter what happens to the kids afterwards.

How many children of rape and drug addicts have you adopted? What have you done for all the unwanted children out there?

[grandmadeb]

In my ideal little world all children would be wanted, cherished, and loved beyond measure. But there are those out there that put a baby in a microwave, beat them to death, abuse them horribly, and abandon them either emotionally or physically. Actually this society does not value children. They have few rights. It is pretty sad when you sit with a 4th grader and he tells you he has a scummer for a mom and hates having to live with her and you know it to be true. But she does not neglect or abuse him so he is stuck. Maybe if we learn to care and support for the ones already here among us we can care more for the unborn. There are a lot of kids out there who could use help, many who are less than perfect and not too many people step up to adopt them. Pro life is fine but put your money where your mouth is and adopt a less than perfect child and then you will have more credibility. You can help others realize that all life is precious even if can not be lived to fullest as we think of it. There are people out there that have done just that and I respect them tremendously, they are living what they preach.

[NJrider]

Well said Grandmadeb!

[HoustonFarrier]

If you want to stop abortion in this country is would be very simple. EVERY woman who does not want, or never wants a child...STOP HAVING SEX.

Abstinence AWLAYS works, when done correctly:)

If that is not an option, get your tubes cut...I'd rather my tax $$$ were spent on that rather than abortions. Before you start hollering about rape, incest, etc....that percentage is so miniscule, it's not even worth mentioning. By far the greatest number of abortions are the "..oh sh** I'm pregnant...." ones.

Personally, I abhor the action....we are willing to kill innocent human children...but yet unwilling to kill heinous killers on death row....I just don't understand it:huh:

But, we live in the country we live in , at it is a womans "right" (as decided by 9 judges, NOT by legislature). Until it changes, all I can do is accept it as what it is, and live my life the best I can do.

I'm just glad my mother didn't get an abortion :)

Steve

[cloedoll]

How many newborns have you held? More than enough, I used to babysit and I have a large family (not my immediate family, though). Aside from that, my father is in the military and we would go to huge functions and plenty of young Navy guys, with their young Navy wives and newborns. ;)

How many newborns have you tickled under the chin & watched them giggle & squirm?? How many times have you gotten up gladly at 2am to change a diaper or feed baby?? How many nights have you held & rocked a cranky baby to have them fall asleep in your arms?? I babysit, so again, plenty of times.

All of those and again, just like the pictures of the fetus after it's aborted, the stories - everything, it doesn't affect my decision/thoughts/etc. If you are curious, no, I don't want kids. Please don't say I'll change my mind, I'm set on my decision of not wanting kids and on being pro-choice, just like your set on pro-life. Neither of us will change our minds on that.

These are only a few of the things that are so precious to a parent.I don't believe people who have had an abortion, or want an abortion, are ready to be a parent, thus they get the abortion. Pregnant women have very good, valid reason, in my opinion to get an abortion. I mean, what if a women was raped, would you want her to have that kid? She'd probably put it up for adoption if she had the child. Then tell the kid in a few years, "by the way your real dad was your real mom's rapist?" I am sure many would just say, "just never tell the kid, they won't ever know." It's the same as if the child were aborted, they would never know. It's not your choice if pregnant women should experience childhood, it's not your choice if they should have to be pregnant, it's not your choice at all. It's theirs, entirely theirs. Again, pregnant women have so many good, valid reasons to get abortions. If you are pro-life, are you willing to take all of the babies that would have been aborted? That's a lot of babies. There are already enough kids needing to be adopted. The world would be over populated, too. I'm a vegetarian and yet I am for humane horse slaughter and I think this world would be over-run if we all were vegetarians (I of course wish animals would be treated better that were for human consumption, though). But I'm different, I would rather save an animals life over a humans life probably. Terrible, I know. You see it differently, I know that, I'm just saying. xD

When it comes right down to it life is all that matters in this world. The rest is just a bunch of stuff. Didn't mean to lecture, just tell a parents side of the story. Good luck to you.Well, I see it differently, but alright. Thank you for sharing your stance on it.

[rocknK]

Cloe, its a sad thing that someone so young has such a hard heart. Good luck to you.

[cloedoll]

Before you start hollering about rape, incest, etc....that percentage is so miniscule, it's not even worth mentioning. By far the greatest number of abortions are the "..oh sh** I'm pregnant...." ones.

It's minuscule and yet I have met three people within that percentage in one year. I think the percentage is higher than most people think, a lot of it just goes unknown.

Not pickin' a fight with you Steve, I'm just saying. (:

[starkitten]

Definitely an issue no one side is going to change the other on that's for sure.

All I will say is my body my choice.

[cloedoll]

Cloe, its a sad thing that someone so young has such a hard heart. Good luck to you. I don't think I have a hard heart, that's just an opinion of yours because I don't believe in what you do or feel the way you do. It's like me saying your heart is hard because you eat meat - it would be just an opinion of mine because I don't like your ways because they aren't mine. And I don't feel that way, eat all the meat you want - it's your choice and right and you are entitled to it.

Your way is not the only way. ;)

Thanks for the luck, but I don't think I'll be needing it. xD

[JackieB]

You're going to get blasted for your post, Steve. And I will admit that I sure wish you had taken a more thoughtful approach to this complex and difficult issue. First off, in cases of consenual sex, both the man and woman are equally responsible for their behavior. Your post doesn't even mention the responsibility on the part of the man.

Secondly, I'm afraid that rape, incest, etc., is hardly "so miniscule, it's not even worth mentioning". We don't know the true numbers of these awful situations because many are never never reported. But it's a lot, and women who find themselves suffering beyond what we can imagine as a result of these crimes are devastated and desparate.

There is an abortion-related story in my own family that dates back to before abortion was legal. It was a woman who is no longer with us, but whom I loved dearly. Thinking of her sorrow and fear, and then putting together more of what I think might very well have been the remainder of this terrible story, contributed to my firm position that abortion must remain safe and legal.

[rocknK]

As Forrest Gump said, "thats all I've got to say about that".

[cloedoll]

Secondly, I'm afraid that rape, incest, etc., is hardly "so miniscule, it's not even worth mentioning". We don't know the true numbers of these awful situations because many are never never reported. But it's a lot, and women who find themselves suffering beyond what we can imagine as a result of these crimes are devastated and desparate.Exactly. Like I stated, I have met three women in just the past year and I live in a small town. I have met more throughout my entire life, as well, but I'm just saying it is definitely more than minuscule.
There is an abortion-related story in my own family that dates back to before abortion was legal. It was a woman who is no longer with us, but whom I loved dearly. Thinking of her sorrow and fear, and then putting together more of what I think might very well have been the remainder of this terrible story, contributed to my firm position that abortion must remain safe and legal.I'm sorry about your family member, JackieB. :(

[NJrider]

So Steve I guess you won't ever be having sex again? Or it doesn't matter to you since you feel as a man it's not your responsibility if you get a woman pregnant and don't want a child?

[HoustonFarrier]

You're going to get blasted for your post, Steve.
I shouldn't...it's just my personal opinion;)

First off, in cases of consenual sex, both the man and woman are equally responsible for their behavior.
If there is no woman NOT wanting to have children, having sex...then the man is totally taken out of the picture;) correct????

Your post doesn't even mention the responsibility on the part of the man.
IMHO, when talking about abortion, the MAN has NO SAY......so......if he is "invisible" on the abortion decision...then he should be invisible during the procreative act. One cannot not decide to point the finger when it only suits one side.:nono:

abortion must remain safe and legal.
It is not only safe and legal..it is free for most.

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

So Steve I guess you won't ever be having sex again? Or it doesn't matter to you since you feel as a man it's not your responsibility if you get a woman pregnant and don't want a child?

That's just assinine. I brought 4 children into this world, and took are of ALL of them. My post was in the context of abortion....where...the man has no say.

Learn to read for comprehension.....

Steve

[cheval]

Cloe, its a sad thing that someone so young has such a hard heart. Good luck to you.

Back up a few steps, she does NOT have a hard heart. She has a heart of gold and just so happens to know how she feels about things. That doesn' make her heart hard. She's got a lot more maturity than most of the adults I know. Her ideas are well thought out and her beliefs should not belittle her to having a hard heart.

Nor should anyone that believes in abortion be thought of that way. I think there's no need to resort to that kind of statement. AT ALL.

[grandmadeb]

Sure he has a say by having or not having sex in the first place. It takes two to tango and every little "dance" can end with a pregnancy. Why do people see getting pregnant as the woman's fault? There is birth control out ther for both sexes and if a man does not want to procreate he can choose abstinance, protection or vasectomy. Granted, birth control for women is a bit more effective than the condom so maybe that is why women are stuck with taking the precautions. Pregnancy for a man exhibits not outward signs but for a woman there is no such leeway. He can walk away,not look back or take responsibility and no one will know that he created a child. There is only one way for a woman to "walkaway."

[NJrider]

I have no comprehension issues thank you. And I'm not saying you did not take care of your current children (comprehension anyone?) I'm just trying to figure out what YOU would do if you got a woman pregnant now or in the future because YOU said if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she should never have sex. Has the mother of your children only had sex 4 times in her life?

IMHO, when talking about abortion, the MAN has NO SAY......so......if he is "invisible" on the abortion decision...then he should be invisible during the procreative act. One cannot not decide to point the finger when it only suits one side.:nono:

Wow. I don't even know how to respond to this one. Since when does the man have no say? Many times it's the man pushing the mother to HAVE an abortion. Where are you getting your "facts"?

[HoustonFarrier]

Back up a few steps, she does NOT have a hard heart. She has a heart of gold and just so happens to know how she feels about things. That doesn' make her heart hard

I agree 100%..... but, should a woman who has made the decision take the step of ensuring 100% that she will never get pregnant?? (Tubal ligation?)...since, besides abstinence, that is the ONLY 100% effective birth control. I know it's a PITA go get it done..allot of MD's try to talk you out of it.......but is it a valid "requirement"(for lack of a better term) for a woman who has made that decision?

Steve

[JackieB]

Steve,
Here's something that maybe you can help me understand. It has always appeared to me that some of the most adamant abortion opponents are also not very happy to see their tax dollars go to assist others through social programs.

I certainly agree with the importance of individual responsibility as I have mentioned previously. But children aren't able to be very responsible for themselves and we know that their parents often won't accept full responsibility for their children.

Since you are opposed to abortion on behalf of the child, then I'm sure that you care as much about the child after it is born and is absolutely viable. Nobody debates whether or not a child has rights after it's born. Wouldn't it stand to reason that you would be in favor of tax-funded social programs directed specifically at the children themselves (Head Start, meals at school, after school programs, delinquency-prevention programs, etc.)? This, to me, would be the logical extension of a position that says that each human is precious and needs to be protected from the moment of conception on.

I'm honest to goodness not trying to start an argument. I just have always felt that there is some hypocrisy when I hear people who are staunch anti-abortionists also seem to be vehemently opposed to social programs. I would expect to hear them at least say "Spend my money on the children because they are defenseless and I want to help protect them, but don't give it to their parents because I'm afraid that it doesn't help parents become more self-sufficient."

[HoustonFarrier]

And I'm not saying you did not take care of your current children (comprehension anyone?)
I do believe you were insinuating that.

I'm just trying to figure out what YOU would do if you got a woman pregnant now or in the future
I would do as I have done the 4 previous times......

because YOU said if a woman doesn't want to get pregnant she should never have sex.
That would negate the need for an abortion, would it not????(In terms of consensual sex). Abstinese ALWAYS works, when practiced correctly. How many Catholic nuns have you ever actually KNOWN had a baby????:p

Since when does the man have no say? Many times it's the man pushing the mother to HAVE an abortion. Where are you getting your "facts"?
Exactly...he can push all he wants, either way.....but...if a woman wants an abortion, the man can do NOTHING to stop her.....period. The supreme court has so ruled.

Steve

[NJrider]

:clap: what he (JackieB) said

[NJrider]

I was not insinuating that in the slightest. Frankly up until you told me you had children I had no idea if you had kids or not.

[HoustonFarrier]

Wouldn't it stand to reason that you would be in favor of tax-funded social programs directed specifically at the children themselves (Head Start, meals at school, after school programs, delinquency-prevention programs, etc.)? This, to me, would be the logical extension of a position that says that each human is precious and needs to be protected from the moment of conception on.

I support that to an extent. What I don't like is the abuses. It's the welfare moms, having kids to get more free money. I kind of favor the rule that if you have no $$$ in a Social Security Account, that means you have not been working, then you should NOT get aid automatically(that's an important word). I think perhaps we should REQUIRE (and yes, we'll pay for them) some welfare moms to get their tubes cut as a pre-requisite to getting more financial $$$$.

Steve

[WashingtonBay]

Definitely an issue no one side is going to change the other on that's for sure.

I wouldn't say that definitively.

I'll have you know, I wrote well thought-out and heartfelt college-level papers, just a year apart, on opposing sides of this issue, twenty years ago. I understand both sides well, and have sat with both sides, even since.

I wouldn't ever consider this issue a closed issue, as long as it continues.

I honestly think it is medical science that will end abortion. As our pre-natal imaging gets better, as our ability to keep alive earlier and earlier premature births improves, it will become very very difficult as a society to say that the tiny, living 3 or 4 month old premie in one room is a human being with rights, but the unwanted pregnancy in the next room is not and can be thrown away. Eventually, I think it will be medical science and technology, not politicians or religion or activist groups or judges, that demand abortions end.

How does the oath go? Above all else, do no harm...

[rocknK]

WB, there you go with that grey area again....

[starkitten]

I suppose you are correct WB that there is no closed issue, but this issue seems to be so deeply emotional for people that neither side can seem to see the other point of view. I am glad that you have and I try to as well :)

[grandmadeb]

But the children are still the "innocents" here or are they only innocent while in the womb? How about requiring and paying for men to get vasectomies after they father a set number of kids without taking responsibilities. Walk away twice and you are DONE.

[HoustonFarrier]

Sure he has a say by having or not having sex in the first place. It takes two to tango and every little "dance" can end with a pregnancy. Why do people see getting pregnant as the woman's fault? There is birth control out ther for both sexes and if a man does not want to procreate he can choose abstinance, protection or vasectomy. Granted, birth control for women is a bit more effective than the condom so maybe that is why women are stuck with taking the precautions. Pregnancy for a man exhibits not outward signs but for a woman there is no such leeway. He can walk away,not look back or take responsibility and no one will know that he created a child. There is only one way for a woman to "walkaway."

You too, are out of context. If a man gets a woman pregnant(there..it's HIS fault now:)), and he wants her to get an abortion, and she does not, and has the child...then, at the very least, HE WILL pay child support (or got to jail for the next 18 years, IMHO). Our system IS lacking in that regard...which has a whole other set of consequences.

If a man and a woman have sex, and she gets pregnant, and HE wants the baby, and she DOES NOT, and wants an abortion..the man has no say....he cannot stop her in any way. It's been tried, the Supreme Court has ruled.

This thread is NOT about fault or blame....it's about abortion, which is STRICTLY a womans decision...NOT a man AND womans decision(or at least, does not have to be)...and THAT is the context of what I post about.

Steve

[HoustonFarrier]

How about requiring and paying for men to get vasectomies after they father a set number of kids without taking responsibilities. Walk away twice and you are DONE.

I would support that 100% !!!! after the FIRST walk-away!

Steve

[shewasmyshadow]

If you believe that God lovely created each child to serve his or her own special purpose. That He loved them enough to create for them a beautiful world. That He gave the freedom to choose sin, then saved us from it. If you believe that He gave His life to give each and every person the opportunity for Eternal Life with him. Then you believe that your value as a Human is FAR above animals. That being said each human life is just as precious as the next. That means that each life is to be handled with care. That doesn't take the sin out of the sinner, but as you walk with God and enjoy a personal fellowship with Him you are encouraged and given the strength to make the right decisions if you wish. I believe that each child has potential to bless others. Even those with downs and other illnesses.

We just had the privilege of a BEAUTIFUL baby girl is our church family. She is a downs baby. She will bless her family and bring joy to the entire church family. She deserved life just as much as anyone. Because she is a child of God.

I am adopted. My mother chose LIFE for me. Not a day goes by that I don't think of her and thank God for her. She is my hero.

[starkitten]

But SMS - isn't that mixing church and state? I know that everyone has their own personal religious beliefs and morals, but those are not necessarily shared by everyone in this country.

[rocknK]

Last time I checked abortion wasn't mentioned in the Bill of Rights.

[cloedoll]

Then you believe that your value as a Human is FAR above animals.Well that's just another reason I'm an atheist. That's my view on things/beliefs - I have mine, you have yours. xD I think religion does play a big part in this subject. That's probably why I am for abortions.

But SMS - isn't that mixing church and state? I know that everyone has their own personal religious beliefs and morals, but those are not necessarily shared by everyone in this country. Ditto!

[NJrider]

It seems to me that a lot of prolifers value the life of a fetus over the life of the mother. Is that not the case?

[cloedoll]

It seems to me that a lot of prolifers value the life of a fetus over the life of the mother. Is that not the case?

That's what I see a lot of the time.

[WashingtonBay]

It seems to me that a lot of prolifers value the life of a fetus over the life of the mother. Is that not the case?

I don't think that's really fair. The LIFE of the mother is only very rarely at stake. It's usually the plans and desires of the mother that are at risk. The value of LIFE versus the value of plans.

[NJrider]

It depends on how you define life. Will it literally kill the mother—most likely not (of course if there legitimately is that risk do you still say the fetus has more right to live?). But, in terms of the mothers emotional state and how the next 18 years of her life will be—that counts as life as well.

And is a child born to a mother that does not want it, and cannot nurture it properly, and endures horrific abuse better off than being aborted? And if that child has children and treats them the same way because he/she knows no other way? It just keeps going.

[grandmadeb]

If you want to stop abortion in this country is would be very simple. EVERY woman who does not want, or never wants a child...STOP HAVING SEX.

Abstinence AWLAYS works, when done correctly:)

If that is not an option, get your tubes cut...I'd rather my tax $$$ were spent on that rather than abortions. Before you start hollering about rape, incest, etc....that percentage is so miniscule, it's not even worth mentioning. By far the greatest number of abortions are the "..oh sh** I'm pregnant...." ones.

Personally, I abhor the action....we are willing to kill innocent human children...but yet unwilling to kill heinous killers on death row....I just don't understand it:huh:

But, we live in the country we live in , at it is a womans "right" (as decided by 9 judges, NOT by legislature). Until it changes, all I can do is accept it as what it is, and live my life the best I can do.

I'm just glad my mother didn't get an abortion :)

Steve

The first part of your post came across as assigning blame. Now I will tell you that I think abortion is not the ideal solution to a pregnancy. It should NOT be viewed as a form of birth control. All adults who engage in sex should realize the consequences . For a man, you may help create a child that you may lose if you don't take precautions, or one you may have to provide suppport to for 18 +years monetarily and or physically. For a woman, you may help create a child you may not want and you may either end the pregnancy or raise a child with or without help monetarily or physically for the next 18 + years.
You are right, If either party doesn't want to have children with whomever they are with they should abstain from having sex.

[HoustonFarrier]

It seems to me that a lot of prolifers value the life of a fetus over the life of the mother. Is that not the case?

I don't see that at all. IMHO, there ARE times when an abortion is necessary....but, it should be a medical reason...not a convienence reason(oooohhh...I dont WANT a kid now........). And the medical reason should be one of life-threatening propensities.

Look...I can't believe that two consenting adults(and that is the context of this post) don't know that the product of their consensuality (is that a word? LOL) is a possible baby. If neither one of them is prepared to parent the child, then they should take the PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY to ensure there is no pro-creation in effect....by whatever means they have at their disposal PRIOR to the act.

Now, I am not so old as to remember what life was like when I was 20....young, dumb......you know the rest. I can tell you that 3 of my 4 children were NOT a planned event. It happened, and we dealt with life. It was tough...it was REALLY tough...but, somehow we made it through OK, and we have 4 great kids contributing to society in a positive way.

It's all about personal responsibility......and, IMHO, too many folks, men and women alike, use abortion to "fix" their lack of responsibility.

As with all things in life, there are exceptions.

If your gonna dance....someone has to pay the fiddler :p

Steve

[ItsPrimeTime]

I think that the fetus isn't a real person until it takes it's first real breath outside the belly... I believe a person should have the right to chose, but maybe a limit? If a girl is coming into the abortion clinic 2-4 times in a period of 3 months or so, they should ban her, let her LIVE with the choices she's making because she obviously doesn't care...

[NJrider]

I don't see that at all. IMHO, there ARE times when an abortion is necessary....but, it should be a medical reason...not a convienence reason(oooohhh...I dont WANT a kid now........). And the medical reason should be one of life-threatening propensities.

It's all about personal responsibility......and, IMHO, too many folks, men and women alike, use abortion to "fix" their lack of responsibility.

As with all things in life, there are exceptions.


All right—on this you and I agree! (hehe who would have thought—right? :D)

[HoustonFarrier]

The first part of your post came across as assigning blame.
It was NOT meant too.....in todays society, men and women have available to them 100% birth control via surgery! As I said before, my posts were in the context of abortion, and a man's rights in abortion (which are NONE). See, I was a single father for many years.....so I have a somewhat unique take of what a father should be. So, I KNOW there are fathers who can and do take GREAT care of their children....more than most peole give credit for........

It should NOT be viewed as a form of birth control. All adults who engage in sex should realize the consequences .
Agree 100%!

For a woman, you may help create a child you may not want and you may either end the pregnancy or raise a child with or without help monetarily or physically for the next 18 + years.
OR....give the child to adoption.....
OR...give the child to the FATHER if he wants this child.......

There are ALWAYS alternatives to abortion......

Steve

[Kaitlyn]

I'm pro-choice, even though I'm 90% republican, this is about the only issue I'm blue on.

Birth control methods fail, obviously if someone is on birth control, they are wishing to not have a baby at the current time. So I believe in that case, abortion should be legal. Or the obvious, incest, rape, etc. that should be able to be taken care of..

But it's not ok if someone is having a child just to get another welfare check, or if they are using abortion as a secondary birth control, or primary birth control, that would be even worse.

I've never had an abortion, and hope I wouldn't ever need one. I try my best to prevent a pregnancy at all times. I understand it's cruel, but I fear a lot of those teenagers that get pregnant and use abortion as their primary birth control don't understand the procedure. I didn't know what they did for abortions until I looked it up, I wish there was some way teenagers could understand how violent it can be, or how depressing it could be. I think, from the outside looking in, they go in happy go lucky with the mentality they can just walk right out of the clinic and everything be fine, and go right back to having sex. When in reality, it's not like that.

[HoustonFarrier]

I think that the fetus isn't a real person until it takes it's first real breath outside the belly...
So...the day before a woman is to give birth, it's OK in your mind to abort the fetus?

Imagine you are an expectant father......waiting for your first child....and your wife decides to abort the baby when her water breaks.........how would you feel?

Sure, it's a tough question......that's why, as a country, we have been debating it for 30+ years:)

Steve

[Harleys Owner]

It seems to me that a lot of prolifers value the life of a fetus over the life of the mother. Is that not the case?


The thing about this tho, is except in cases of rape, the couple (both are responsible) choose to have sex, rather they tried to prevent a baby or not, it was still a conscious risk on their part that they willing took, the baby conceived had no voice in it. Why then should it be a victim.

And to clarify my position, even in rape cases I do not believe abortion is right...because I believe in God, I believe every child conceived has a purpose, and it is not our right to go against God's will.

[Aina]

It seems to me that a lot of prolifers value the life of a fetus over the life of the mother. Is that not the case?

Not at all. However, it is harder to voice the concerns about the mother. Really, the baby will just go to heaven. However, the mother has to live with the consequences of her actions and killing her baby There is a book that describes my concern better than I can. Anyone ever read the Christ Clone trilogy by James Bousinger? Well, it is a great read, as long as you stick it out through the entire series. Has nothing to do with abortion, but there is one scene that describes perfectly why abortions are wrong.

[WashingtonBay]

It depends on how you define life. Will it literally kill the mother—most likely not (of course if there legitimately is that risk do you still say the fetus has more right to live?)

I didn't say it ever had more right to live. But right now it has no right to live, unless the mother gives it that privilege. And taking all the emotions out of it, I think we have an ethical problem when we can support babies outside the womb as early as a few months along in gestation... and yet in the next room discount them as non-entities. There is a serious conflict there.

And is a child born to a mother that does not want it, and cannot nurture it properly, and endures horrific abuse better off than being aborted? And if that child has children and treats them the same way because he/she knows no other way? It just keeps going.I think that assumes a level of dysfunction on the part of most women that is rather arrogant. We must allow for abortion or all these incompetent heartless women will have children? I think it's a wrong assumption that most of those who contemplate abortion are inherently defective and unable to become good parents. Many do, actually. I know them. I think if we asked our folks, the exact timing and appearance of many of us was not exactly planned. Only allowed for. It's a liberal idea that other people cannot handle unexpected difficulty and challenge and must be relieved of all responsibility (by better people).

[NJrider]

So many of you don't believe in abortion because of your religious beliefs?

[mtnmollie]

I wouldn't say that definitively.


How does the oath go? Above all else, do no harm...

If you are a doctor- do you have to learn and /or practice the abortion procedure?


,,,or can you just say no?

[NJrider]

I'm not saying that that happens in every case! Nor did I use the word "most" But, if woman are thinking of having an abortion there's a reason for it. And just because they give birth does not automatically guarantee they will suddenly become mother of the year.

What I am saying is that if abortions were illegal and women were forced into having a baby that SOME children's lives could be living hells.

[JackieB]

If you are a doctor- do you have to learn and /or practice the abortion procedure?


,,,or can you just say no?

A doctor can certainly refuse. It might cost him/her his job if the employer disagrees, but lots of people lose (or quit) their jobs for standing on principle. It's something that most of us do at some time or another during our lives.

[HoustonFarrier]

What I am saying is that if abortions were illegal and women were forced into having a baby that SOME children's lives could be living hells.

LOL...I was raised by my alchoholic father on the south side of Pittsburgh...we were the ONLY white people to be found(....this was in the early 60's..not the best of racial relations back then...). He abandoned us when I was 3. I got stuck in a Catholic orphanage(not much better than the Spanish Inquisition)...bounced around from foster home to foster home, until one tough German family was able to get a handle on my wild side.

Can't get much more of a living hell than that........like I said before...I'm GLAD my mother didn't abort me....

Steve

[NJrider]

Yes but Steve I suspect you're the exception. You pulled yourself out by your own tenacity and became a productive member of society. That's not the case all the time.

[Harleys Owner]

That's not the case all the time.

Right, but no one can determine at conception how a child will turn out. There are plenty of people who make something of themselves even living in terrible situations, and vice versa, there are people who are total bums altho they lived in great circumstances.

[NJrider]

Also true.

[Harleys Owner]

So what right does anyone have to terminate a life when that life may be the very life that brings about world peace, or cures cancer, or just lives a very productive happy life.

[WashingtonBay]

I'm not saying that that happens in every case! Nor did I use the word "most" But, if woman are thinking of having an abortion there's a reason for it. And just because they give birth does not automatically guarantee they will suddenly become mother of the year.

What I am saying is that if abortions were illegal and women were forced into having a baby that SOME children's lives could be living hells.

I'm certainly aware that not all children are equally well loved and tended. I don't think our responsibility to look after the most helpless ends with the birth of a child or the decision to carry it to term. Because the truth is, those who really need the most help in doing right by themselves and their circumstance are not those who are going in for abortions now.

No, as often as not, those who are getting abortions now are the ones with the best plans at stake.

[mtnmollie]

The Terri Schiavo comment wasn't really applicable - if I were her, I would've wanted to be allowed to die years before they let me. She was trapped in her own body, being kept alive by machines and doctors... a horrible way to "live". :(

:D

I love yay ALOK-but I disagree.

What you said about Terri is not the news on her that i read. :cowboy:

I have heard from her lawyers on the radio-
but its the truth that i never met her.

Seh knew she was thirsty. She choose life.

[NJrider]

I don't think our responsibility to look after the most helpless ends with the birth of a child or the decision to carry it to term.

I agree. It's the people who are against it and do a lot of talking but offer no solutions or help that I take issue with.

All this discussion/debating has worked up my appetite. So now I'm going to go haul my liberal butt off for a nice sushi lunch :D

[HoustonFarrier]

Yes but Steve I suspect you're the exception. You pulled yourself out by your own tenacity and became a productive member of society. That's not the case all the time.

I like to think that I am not as much of an anomaly as one would think. While it is true...my early life did indeed build my tenacity, my foster family instilled a strong work ethic....and I did the rest....good, bad and ugly:)

I'm sure there there have no doubt been those who were not able to overcome their early adversity.....the population of our prisons probably attest to that...but who knows which happens more? A question for the eternities :cool:

Steve

[mtnmollie]

.

Personally, I abhor the action....we are willing to kill innocent human children...but yet unwilling to kill heinous killers on death row....I just don't understand it:huh:


Steve

Well said Steve.

My daddy's mom died- giving birth to my Dad.

[mtnmollie]

Secondly, I'm afraid that rape, incest, etc., is hardly "so miniscule, it's not even worth mentioning". We don't know the true numbers of these awful situations because many are never never reported. But it's a lot, and women who find themselves suffering beyond what we can imagine as a result of these crimes are devastated and desparate.



They say it is one in three.
But how do they know that?

They put all the convicted sex criminals in Spokane for Washington state.
They had 1,000 on parole.

One guy raped a teen- ager locally. He got 6 months.

No biggie.

We have over 100 parolled sex criminals around me-
you can look them up on the net.

Our local paper taught us how but I forgot...

[Pinky]

At the moment I'm very 'on the fence' about abortion. I'm more pro-choice than anything else.

But, a (supposedly hypothetical) question we were asked in RS today while debating about abortion.
Imagine you're twenty five, just started a successful career and accidentally get pregnant. Would you keep the baby? (Everyone in my class said yes to this)

Now, imagine that you are all of the above but carry the gene for Huntingtons Chorea. This will kill most people, slowly and in immense pain, by the time they're thirty. It is heireditary and is guaranteed to be passed onto the child. Would you give birth to a child to only know it for five years and then know that it will have to suffer immesnse pain and die the way you did? Could you give birth to a baby that you know would die; because of you? (No one actually could answer this...or wanted to)

[WashingtonBay]

Tough question Pinky... no easy answer. It is in part because I've lost too many people to Cancer in my family to think it is a coincidence, that I am not sure I should have children, even if I wanted to.

But I guess I'd have asked another followup question, of those 25 year olds in the room, imagining they had that disease. Most would probably say they wouldn't actively plan to have children given those circumstances. But the question as posed, is an unintentional pregancy that already exists. It's beyond the 'what if' now, it's in the 'what now'.

The circumstance proposed suggests the pregnant woman with the above circumstance had life for 25 years, and it also suggests the ability to live, grow up and learn, have a career, and perhaps love and be loved (hence the pregnancy). Would they say then, that they would have wanted that chance, perhaps their only chance to live at all, taken from them for their own good?

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

A person that doesn't have the means financially or mentally shouldn't be having kids either and that's not an age thing. There are plenty of non-teens that shouldn't be having kids.

Thankfully we live in a country where it is a choice and no one else's business what decision is made in that regard. Banning abortion will just make it more dangerous for the people to get them. It will not stop them.

EVERY person has the right to make that decision.

But Chevel...There is an alternative...Adoption. IMHO, it is much less damaging to the "pregnant mother" to give birth , than it is to abort the child. We do have consequences to the decisions that we make. Having sex..knowing it can make a baby....is one of them, if that happens.

I was 17 when I got pregnant. I chose to keep my child...Yes, it was hard..It was hard to tell my parents. It was all the things..that you can imagine it would be. It is scary, to say the least, and so, so very easy, to take the easy way out.

My dauther is 38 years old now. She has grown up to become the most wonderful woman, wife and mother I have ever known. She is a wonderful addition to the human race. Jennifer is a mother of two boys ages 2 and 4. She has her Master's Degree in Education from Johns Hopkins University. She teaches Early Childhood Education in Maryland.

Also, I adopted my Son, Brian, who is 30 years old. He is also a wonderful addition to the human race. He is married and plans to start his own family very soon. He has his BA in Economics from the University of Georgia. Thanks be to God that his teenage, biological mother, did not abort him.

These are two human beings in my life that have brought joy and love to everyone they meet. No one can say that these two "persons" were not "persons" the day that they were conceived. They did not, just one day, after they were conceived, become a human child.

I can't tell any girl or woman what they should do with their lives. But, as you can see...I have been there.

And please, all of you, don't get me wrong. I am not preaching to you about how you should feel. I just want you to know, that I have been there, and I am sooo thankful that I did not abort and that my son's biological mother did not abort.

I choose Life because.......
.http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/picture.php?albumid=32&pictureid=1371
Son, his wife...Me...Daughter, her husband. My two grandsons..Tanner and Gavin.

[mtnmollie]

I' m going to change the names in this story.

Someone I know in my family is going to have a baby.
The hubby said- get an abortion.

No grand kids in this family.
Hubby's wife had a miscarriage.

Sister had an abortion. ( GRand baby ended up in dumpster.)

Sister number two never got preggie.

[mtnmollie]

I am adopted. My mother chose LIFE for me. Not a day goes by that I don't think of her and thank God for her. She is my hero.

SmS- wow!

Just wow! :cowboy:

[mtnmollie]

So many of you don't believe in abortion because of your religious beliefs?

I was religious- when I believed in Abortion.

One day I changed my mind.

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

I was adopted, and not into the greatest family, either. Just because you let the kid live and adopt it out does NOT guarantee a better life.
I am glad its legal, and the choices are ours to make. I disagree with using it as a form of birth control, though. Responsibility is huge for that decision, but I also have friends that have gotten them as teens, and I dont hate them for it.

It doesn't gaurantee a "better life" just LIFE. It does not have anything to do with being adopted. You are not necesarrily born into a family who is the "perfect family" just because you were born into that family. I could never hate any woman for making the decision to abort.

Just like I could never hate any person for having a difference of opinion than me.

[TheBadLands]

But Chevel...There is an alternative...Adoption. IMHO, it is much less damaging to the "pregnant mother" to give birth , than it is to abort the child. We do have consequences to the decisions that we make. Having sex..knowing it can make a baby....is one of them, if that happens.

Having had an interesting young adulthood (one I'm not always exactly boastful about).. I have experienced ALL THREE scenarios... teen pregnancy, abortion and adoption...

I believe it is something that should be left up to the mother to be. I personally, knowing now, would choose adoption. But not everyone would be able to give birth to a child and then hand it away.. believe me it is not easy. I know. So I am thankful the option is out there for those who would be less than ideal mothers. AND to those pregnant women who are risking more by staying pregnant than by having abortions.. think: drug abusers etc... you cant expect a drug addict to magically be ok for the sake of a baby. They do not think that way. Not that they're bad people.. but the physical addiction overcomes their rational behavior. And it's just a better idea to get them an abortion and get them on birth control.

my two cents.

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

Having had an interesting young adulthood (one I'm not always exactly boastful about).. I have experienced ALL THREE scenarios... teen pregnancy, abortion and adoption...

I believe it is something that should be left up to the mother to be. I personally, knowing now, would choose adoption. But not everyone would be able to give birth to a child and then hand it away.. believe me it is not easy. I know. So I am thankful the option is out there for those who would be less than ideal mothers. AND to those pregnant women who are risking more by staying pregnant than by having abortions.. think: drug abusers etc... you cant expect a drug addict to magically be ok for the sake of a baby. They do not think that way. Not that they're bad people.. but the physical addiction overcomes their rational behavior. And it's just a better idea to get them an abortion and get them on birth control.

my two cents.

Who is it that will take care of that addicted mother..and get her on birth control? Is she able to make that decision on her own? Maybe if there is someone out there to take care of that situation, then they can help her get thru the pregnancy. Just thinking out loud.

I think it is a good thing that we are talking about this. I think it is good for the young people on this board to hear all the different sides...so if the situation arises for them...they can make the right choice for them.

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

Well I believe in assisted suicide, abortion and humane horse slaughter. I am truely the axis of evil.

No you are not Chevel. :):):):)

[TheBadLands]

Who is it that will take care of that addicted mother..and get her on birth control? Is she able to make that decision on her own? Maybe if there is someone out there to take care of that situation, then they can help her get thru the pregnancy. Just thinking out loud.

I think is a good thing that we are talking about this. I think it is good for the young people on this board to hear all the different sides...so if the situation arises for them...they can make the right choice for them.


The process of going clean off of drugs like heroin and cocaine has many relapse points and takes well over a year. ( I have a family member who was a crack addict) I am not saying it is not possible for a mother to be to just quit cold turkey and do the right thing.. but the reality is.. it usually doesn't happen that way. And the risk involved to the baby is higher than almost any other situation. In that case, I feel that it is in the best interest of everyone to go the abortion route. Unfortunately a woman is LESS likely to get help and rehab treatment via the state while pregnant, than she is to be put on BC by the state after the fact.

I know the other side of giving a baby to a family who wants one desperately and I am all for it... I would not do it differently if I could go back.

But that option is not for every mother to be.

[mtnmollie]

If you are a doctor- do you have to learn and /or practice the abortion procedure?


,,,or can you just say no?

A doctor can certainly refuse. It might cost him/her his job if the employer disagrees, but lots of people lose (or quit) their jobs for standing on principle. It's something that most of us do at some time or another during our lives.

When a doctor looses his job becaus of refusing to do abortions on religous grounds- is this speration of church and statte?

...or is the state mandating your beliefs?

[TheBadLands]

If you are a doctor- do you have to learn and /or practice the abortion procedure?


,,,or can you just say no?



When a doctor looses his job becaus of refusing to do abortions on religous grounds- is this speration of church and statte?

...or is the state mandating your beliefs?

Mollie.. I am not sure how it is everywhere..but most states have abortion clinics.. meaning they only offer this service and related (morning after pills etc). So the doctors in these practices are well aware of what they're doing.

But I would completely accept and respect a doctor at a standard obgyn who offered DnCs (for other reasons..partial miscarriage etc) to refuse an actual abortion.

[WashingtonBay]

Pallevesta, you're right.... no one forces doctors to go into that line of work, even if they are ob/gyns, any more than doctors are forced to become podiatrists. It's a specialty of sorts.

What they must learn about in school, I don't know.

[mtnmollie]

But, a (supposedly hypothetical) question we were asked in RS today while debating about abortion.


Now, imagine that you are all of the above but carry the gene for Huntingtons Chorea. This will kill most people, slowly and in immense pain, by the time they're thirty. It is heireditary and is guaranteed to be passed onto the child. Would you give birth to a child to only know it for five years and then know that it will have to suffer immesnse pain and die the way you did? Could you give birth to a baby that you know would die; because of you? (No one actually could answer this...or wanted to)

I love the way my ethics class in college set me up for

if you vote right you are wrong.

I did not learn right from wrong in school.

[TheBadLands]

WB: Every ob/gyn can perform an abortion. The process is called a DnC its used for many non-FETAL abortive things.. like a miscarriage that is incomplete or a retained placenta in some cases. So I'm sure their knowledge is extensive.. now when it comes to partial birth abortions etc.. I don't know WHO teaches them all that.

[mtnmollie]

Pallevesta, you're right.... no one forces doctors to go into that line of work, even if they are ob/gyns, any more than doctors are forced to become podiatrists. It's a specialty of sorts.



Once you are out of school no one tells you where you will work in America.

We have choice. WE get to choose-

I majored in history, got a teaching cert- but never became a history teacher- for example. Well I did substitiute some. :cowboy:

[WashingtonBay]

Can but I don't think they must as a part of their practice. I think that's the question, and I think it really depends on the clinic they are working in whether they would ever be required to. Here, most family practices, they would not.

[mtnmollie]

I have heard of doctors who could not get jobs because of there stand on abortion- but thats all I remember-

foggie brain- LOL.

* I do have 2 cousins who are doctors-or was it on Moody Radio? *

Hubby Gene said - Some hospitals make you do them.

[TheBadLands]

Can but I don't think they must as a part of their practice. I think that's the question, and I think it really depends on the clinic they are working in whether they would ever be required to. Here, most family practices, they would not.

I guess I worded that wrong.. I more meant they teach it as standard (not as a fetal abortion as I said.. but for retained things or incomplete miscarriages -as in naturally occuring but possibly causing bleeding or infection etc). So I know that, at least for DnC style abortions they would be well trained.. as for the stufff they do for women further along? I have no idea...

The family doctor will generally send you to someone who CAN perform a DnC if for some reason you needed one.

[mtnmollie]

One of my adult friends I know- I will call him Billy.

I feel the pain of it every day. My two childern may be daughters. My heart cries. Its not just the mothers. We lost a third through IUD. If someone kills the baby in the womb by striking the mother they can be held for murder. Its alwasys been that way.

I made her get them.

* Did that contribute to the loss of yor marriage? * I asked.

yes.

[cheval]

But Chevel...There is an alternative...Adoption.

But some women don't want to be pregnant, period. So adoption isn't an option for them. My friend that I took to the clinic used birth control because she didn't want to be pregnant. So she got an abortion, because she didn't want to be pregnant. Adoption isn't the right avenue for everyone.

There is the morning after pill now so there are other options if you think you were dumb enough not to use protection or use a condom and it broke.

[Sundays Man]

Look at the post right above the one I wrote - that is the one I am responding to.

OHHH! Sorry, I drifted off I guess. No, not making assumptions, I know some people's heart would never be changed and that is just human nature I guess. Just pointing out that the reality of it all is much more evident when seen from the "factory floor". I do know that there are more searching parents out there today than there are children to adopt. That is why my cousin had to go to Korea and Viet Nam to adopt a child. If it's not the shortage of adoptable children in this country then it's the govt. making it sooo hard to adopt. At any rate, I think it's more of a convenience move on the part of many of the mothers that opt for abortion. A child can be given up for adoption before they are even born, problem solved. But it would be too inconvenient and interfere with their life too much to go through pregnancy. Just my humble opinion and don't think I judge anyone for their decision. They have to live with it not me.

[palomino]

There is no shortage of children to adopt, just if you want a NEWborn. Picky Picky.

[Sundays Man]

There is no shortage of children to adopt, just if you want a NEWborn. Picky Picky.

True dat!! I guess it's just that most young couples want new borns and can't get them. Maybe we're killing too many potential new borns. I really hurt for those older kids that can't find homes. I say we all should go out and find just one kid like that and adopt them and teach them how to be horse lovers and give them a good family life.

[palomino]

Im with you on that SM! I hate to see all the older kids in foster their whole lives, no family-its sad! I was adopted at 6 weeks and my brother at 3 years- he didnt turn out so good. LOTS of behavioral problems with that one. Im not saying thats the norm, but DANG.

[Pi and Tofu]

I'm enjoying this post, everybody is keeping this on high ground, which isn't easy with the subject.

So let's bring this first person. A person in their 20's, not married, using birth control, becomes pregnant. If they are pregnant, they will not be able to work at their job. Since they live where they work, they will no longer be able to live in the place that they are now. In their line of work, it would not be possible to be pregnant and find a new job. In this case, adoption doesn't work either. So a person not planning to get pregnant, in their first trimester, with "planning issues," chooses to have an abortion; and they go on with their own life.

The person can now continue as a productive member of society, working, paying taxes, and not needing any assistance from the government. If they went through with the pregnancy, they would not have a source of income or a place to live, and, therefore, would not be able to take care of another person as well. If you took the word "abortion," out of the picture, do you see where this makes sense? If you put the word "abortion" back in, the situation becomes fuzzy and difficult for many.

In this country, a woman has a right to choose. The choice is not always the one that someone else would make, it is that individual's choice and the individual alone. Whether it is a good reason, a responsible reason, a sensible reason, or a medical reason doesn't matter-legal or illegal, it is a choice that will still be made.

[cheval]

Well said.

[TheBadLands]

I agree..well said :)

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

I'm enjoying this post, everybody is keeping this on high ground, which isn't easy with the subject.

So let's bring this first person. A person in their 20's, not married, using birth control, becomes pregnant. If they are pregnant, they will not be able to work at their job. Since they live where they work, they will no longer be able to live in the place that they are now. In their line of work, it would not be possible to be pregnant and find a new job. In this case, adoption doesn't work either. So a person not planning to get pregnant, in their first trimester, with "planning issues," chooses to have an abortion; and they go on with their own life.

The person can now continue as a productive member of society, working, paying taxes, and not needing any assistance from the government. If they went through with the pregnancy, they would not have a source of income or a place to live, and, therefore, would not be able to take care of another person as well. If you took the work "abortion," out of the picture, do you see where this makes sense? If you put the word "abortion" back in, the situation becomes fuzzy and difficult for many.

In this country, a woman has a right to choose. The choice is not always the one that someone else would make, it is that individual's choice and the individual alone. Whether it is a good reason, a responsible reason, a sensible reason, or a medical reason doesn't matter-legal or illegal, it is a choice that will still be made.

Was this a miraculous conception? Where is the Dad?

[cloedoll]

Make that three, very well said!

[Sundays Man]

I think there is a good argument here for abstaining before marriage, problem solved. I know that is not the answer any of us wanted to hear when young and unmarried, but as I get older, I see where my grandparents had it right. Of course in their day, it wasn't unusual for a girl to be married at 13 either.

[Sundays Man]

And another thing. Now that you bring it up Diane. One thing that really rubs my fur the wrong way is a low life male that will not help out when he manages to get one of his g/f's pregnant. I think he should be taken to the vet's office and neutered if he isn't man enough help with what he obviously had a part in. Just MHO.

[mtnmollie]

One of my adult friends I know- I will call him Billy.

I feel the pain of it every day. My two childern may be daughters. My heart cries. Its not just the mothers. We lost a third through IUD. If someone kills the baby in the womb by striking the mother they can be held for murder. Its alwasys been that way.

I made her get them.

* Did that contribute to the loss of yor marriage? * I asked.

yes.

Well said Mollie! Thank you, I'm glad you liked that. LOL.

[TBgirl]

Interesting topic.

I truly think it all depends on each individuals moral/religous beliefs. Why do I bring religion into it? Well, if your religious...you might think of it as consequences for your actions on earth, as well as believing that God is the only one to make or take a life.

I just don't like abortion being used as a form of birth control. You know what I mean, the girl that has all these abortions and never learned from the mistakes the first time? I see that all too often in my area. It really bothers me! No accountability for their own actions.

Personally, I don't believe I could have an abortion. I have more conservative beliefs.

Cloe- I just wanted to mention that I always said I NEVER would want kids (I couldn't stand them lol..sometimes still can't lol), but as I got older my views did change. Not saying yours will, ofcourse everyone is different. Your reply to the topic just brought back memories of how my thoughts/feelings have changed alot. Now that I am 27 I am starting to want to experience that part of my life. But...I swear to you I didn't start feeling this way until probably like a year or two ago. I also wanted to add that I think you are very smart!! I respect everyone who is passionate about their beliefs!

[Cat]

Was this a miraculous conception? Where is the Dad?


MIA - Not unusual. A lot of birth certificates floating around out there without a father listed for one reason or another.

[Cat]

And another thing. Now that you bring it up Diane. One thing that really rubs my fur the wrong way is a low life male that will not help out when he manages to get one of his g/f's pregnant. I think he should be taken to the vet's office and neutered if he isn't man enough help with what he obviously had a part in. Just MHO.


http://bestsmileys.com/clapping/2.gif

And I am sure I missed a lot of this - unfortunately I don't have time to go back through the 8 pages I have missed. Sorry about that.

[Diane of Buck's Hollow]

MIA - Not unusual. A lot of birth certificates floating around out there without a father listed for one reason or another.

Yep, I agree with you there.

[mtnmollie]

Another true story- I will call her Tender Heart.

I go church visiting one day. The pastor thinks I am dirt- so I dont visit here much. When I started round penning horses I began to be able to see into the hearts of horse and men- or started learning the fine art of how to read people.

This woman-his wife is floundering. I am a stranger and she pours out her heart to me. People do this with me often. "I have a sin problem," she says.

If you want to cut the story short- bottom line- she was griving the loss of her child through abortion. Its in the church. Its in the church leadership. I knew all that before I met her though.

I had to tell her that Jesus forgives sin- all our sin.
Sometimes we believers forget that.

I had to tell her about my sin. Everyone sins.

No one of us can measure up to God's law.
We all fall short.

That is why I need a savior.

[APPYT]

Quote:
Originally Posted by APPYT View Post

three, many and not so many years ago some did not see blacks as "human" in the same way as "whites".. Nor did some see "Jews" as human, at least not enough to let them live.. end quote]

I am finding it very difficult to understand how you can equate abortion to the above quote. To me it's sounds like you're saying that killing a fully developed, independent, LIVING person is the same as having an abortion. And there is a HUGE difference.

Yes, you read it right. A human is a human.

[mtnmollie]

Ever seen an ultra sound? Women come in for an abortion- see an ultrasound -
change their mind.

Because a picture is worth a thousand words.

[Buckpoco]

Once you have created that life, it's not about you anymore, it's about the new life. We worry about wildlife, our horses, dogs...but so many people have no compassion for that tiny baby??? Isn't something wrong with this picture?
Remember when Lacy Peterson and Connor were murdered? Everyone was so upset about the "two" murders. What's the difference between Connor's murder and that of an aborted child?

[mtnmollie]

"What's the difference between Connor's murder and that of an aborted child? "

The difference would be the aborted child useally dies a sloppier, more painful death?

Oh yes- and you can sell body parts on aborted childern-

but not dead adults maybe?

[HAWKINSTXN]

i will add my two cents, my niece found out about two weeks ago that she is pregnant, today she celebrates her 17th b-day. She has had sex one time... should she be (for lack of a better word) punished for the next 18 years for a single mistake? She is in high school, the father is 18 and works at mcdonalds, how are they gonna care for this child? so yes i am in favor of abortion to an extent, if they are using it for birth control as in having more than one in a six month period then tie her tubes...

and nobody has commented on what health problems it can cause for the young mothers, just like its not safe to breed a young horse it isn't healthy for a young woman in her teens to have a child.

and just for the record i am WAY in favor of assisted suicide, if you are terminally ill or have a disease that is non treatable and you are just a burden to your family then i say if you are ready to go then you should be able to go with a little dignity intact

[TheBadLands]

"What's the difference between Connor's murder and that of an aborted child? "

The difference would be the aborted child useally dies a sloppier, more painful death?

Oh yes- and you can sell body parts on aborted childern-

but not dead adults maybe?

I am not trying to start anything but that was an ignorant statement Mollie..

The majority of abortions are performed in clean, legal environments. No body parts are sold and they couldn't be anyway. The majority of abortions are also performed before 12 weeks gestation. This makes the fetus roughly an inch long. With no developed extremities.

BUT.. if we ban abortion? You can garauntee we will not only see many girls getting illegal "wire hanger" abortions.. and a lot more babies left on door steps and in dumpsters.

[mtnmollie]

Well-we can get dead adult body parts for our cadiver dogs.

But I dont think we pay for them.

My Search and Rescue dog coach told me dogs can track people in vehicles.

I thought he made "...that was an ignorant statement Mollie.. " type deal.

Others too said- phooey- it can't be done.

Years later on my SAR board I read about a blood hound who tracked a vehicle...
Looking for a lost little girl who was found.

The dog did such a good jobn working the case- teh cops thought the owner /handler was in on the murder. No dog could do what that dog did.

That was the day I found out I did not know everything. :cowboy:

[mtnmollie]

I am not trying to start anything but that was an ignorant statement Mollie..



You might want to read the book Room 57 if you can find it.

[Buckpoco]

Oh, the other thing I wanted to add was that all of my friends who did have abortions:(, deeply, deeply regret it. It sounds easy, and may be for the moment, but judging from my friends' reactions, you are scarred and really never get over it. Those who went ahead with unwanted pregnancies seemed to have done much better. :)

[TheBadLands]

Well-we can get dead adult body parts for our cadiver dogs.

But I dont think we pay for them.

My Search and Rescue dog coach told me dogs can track people in vehicles.

I thought he made "...that was an ignorant statement Mollie.. " type deal.

Others too said- phooey- it can't be done.

Years later on my SAR board I read about a blood hound who tracked a vehicle...
Looking for a lost little girl who was found.

The dog did such a good jobn working the case- teh cops thought the owner /handler was in on the murder. No dog could do what that dog did.

That was the day I found out I did not know everything. :cowboy:


Hun, to avoid any conflict.. I have a REALLY hard time following what you're talking about a lot of the time. So we'll just have to agree to disagree and I'm leaving this one alone. Because it's not getting anywhere.

[Ladyann]

This is a subject that is a personal choice...the government should not be involved, I do not believe in Abortion but I do believe in a woman's right to choose. Abortion does not raise teen pregnancy...no education about how a baby is conceived is why teens get pregnant and even then they still will get pregnant and I speak from experience. My girls were all told (3) about sex and all the in and outs and yet one daughter got pregnant at 14...she decided to have the baby...I told her I would support what ever she decided, I took her for counseling and in the end she kept my grandson. The choice is between a woman and her god...not us!

[starkitten]

Well said Ladyann :)

I'm so glad you were there to support your 14 year old. That must have been very tough for her...

[TheBadLands]

This is a subject that is a personal choice...the government should not be involved, I do not believe in Abortion but I do believe in a woman's right to choose. Abortion does not raise teen pregnancy...no education about how a baby is conceived is why teens get pregnant and even then they still will get pregnant and I speak from experience. My girls were all told (3) about sex and all the in and outs and yet one daughter got pregnant at 14...she decided to have the baby...I told her I would support what ever she decided, I took her for counseling and in the end she kept my grandson. The choice is between a woman and her god...not us!

Well said Ladyann :)

I'm so glad you were there to support your 14 year old. That must have been very tough for her...

Well said.. I agree with StarKitten

and as I've said a million times.. I had a son at 16.. the day after my birthday actually.. and have done it all with no welfare and not even child support..

I have also given a child up for adoption

AND had an abortion...

I have experienced EVERYTHING you possibly can on this subject.. and to this day I say.. keep the baby or give it to a family who wants him or her so desperately.. giving a baby up was the hardest thing I ever did.. but I did it because sometimes you just have to... sometimes your own hardship makes the life of someone else so much better.. and I take consolation in that every day.. as for the abortion.. I had to have it.. I am not against it if it's the right choice for someone..

[Ladyann]

It was very hard for both of us...she had a difficult delivery and it was so hard to see her struggle to give birth at 15 to a 9lb 10 oz baby...he was 33 this year. She made me a grand mother at 36! She ended up marrying the father and had another child...to cut a long story short, they divorced...we tried to tell her that teenage marraiges do not always work out...but this is what she wanted so we gave her a wedding and she left...the day she took my grandson away, I cried, I had looked after him for almost a year while she was in school. Ah well, life is not easy but we struggle through it the best we can! Just a point I have 12 grand children now and 6 great grand children...scattered all over the US and I see them rarely, this saddens me, but we are a country that moves about and they are in Texas, Pennsylvania and New Jersey and we live in Alabama!:)

[missdixie]

Geez I wonder how long this thread will go for.... I guess I will add my two cents. I personally do not believe in abortion, but I don't think that it is the goverment's right to make that decision for you. Not in the first trimester anyway. I think it's part of the separation between church and state. No matter what you think about it, it's not your right to decide for someone else, especially because it's primarily a theology based issue.

[mtnmollie]

I got my dog spayed. I asked the vet if she was pregnent?

He said- " They weren't puppies yet. "

I would have answered- yes- she was pregnent.

The life within the womb will grow-
into a real live little child you know-
if you survive-
the abortion wars where everyone dies,

and your momma, she cries.

The most dangerous place to be is in the womb- where one in three die.

The opposite of choice is no choice for the child and the father.
The opposite of pro- life is pro - death.

[missdixie]

It is naive to say that you are either pro-life or pro-death. It is not as cut and dry as that, and we should at least respect eachother enough to recognize that much.

[JackieB]

It is naive to say that you are either pro-life or pro-death. It is not as cut and dry as that, and we should at least respect eachother enough to recognize that much.

I agree with you on this, missdixie. It really isn't so clear cut. I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but I'm aware of an abortion situation in my own family dating back to about 1940 when abortion wasn't legal. It's tragic and I can guarantee that there wasn't anything but great sadness in the heart of a terrified young woman. I'm convinced that abortion needs to remain safe and legal.

[missdixie]

Agreed. Though I personally don't agree with it, I don't think it's my decision to make for someone else. I think if anything we should be getting more funding out there for education and free birth control : )

[Buckpoco]

I know it's a terrible situation no matter what. But my dog just killed three baby rabbits and I was in tears...can't think of killing a baby. Now that we have so much technology, we can see pictures of that tiny fetus and yeah, it's a tiny baby. Also, way too many people use abortion for birth control. It's so easy not to get pregnant and then you don't have the messy situation. I have one friend who slept with anyone, had three abortions...duh, where's her brain?

[rocknK]

Don't think she has much of a brain, or heart either.:2cents:

[mtnmollie]

I know it's a terrible situation no matter what. Now that we have so much technology, we can see pictures of that tiny fetus and yeah, it's a tiny baby.

A teenager went to get an abortion.

She saw the baby in the womb waving to her -

it was waving. Hi hay momma.

She did not complete her abortion-
but changed her mind.

I changed my mind about abortion too.

[Sundays Man]

I personally don't think we need funding, govt or anyone else involved. When 2 people come together and create life, what we need is accountability and responsibility. The child had no choice or say so in the matter. The innocent always seem to pay the price. Our society has gotten to the point that we are like a bunch of dogs in heat, jumping from one person to another and in the mean time the poor little victims are looked on as a "problem" to be gotten rid of like bag of garbage. There has been a high price paid for our pleasure and we want to boil it down to technology and science. It's human life for Pete's sake! Not a just a problem or inconvenience. I don't say all that to point fingers or judge because I've been young an foolish in my life too but I would have always been willing to take responsibility if the situation ever arose. I'm not proud of my past nor am I naive enough to think that those things aren't going to happen. If we're "educating" our children about sexual matters, then we certainly should make them understand the possible consequences of being sexually active and take abortion out of the equation. I know there are times when a decision must be made if the mother and child will die because of the pregnancy, but to have wholesale abortion available only aggrevates the situation. No accountability. In some muslim countries where hands are cut off for stealing, there's not a lot of stealing going on. They know they will be held accountable for stealing. There's a price to pay. Wholesale abortion takes that accountability away; so what if you get pregnant, you can fix the "problem" with an abortion. Just my opinion and 2 cents worth.

[menagerie]

I personally don't think we need funding, govt or anyone else involved. When 2 people come together and create life, what we need is accountability and responsibility. The child had no choice or say so in the matter. The innocent always seem to pay the price. Our society has gotten to the point that we are like a bunch of dogs in heat, jumping from one person to another and in the mean time the poor little victims are looked on as a "problem" to be gotten rid of like bag of garbage. There has been a high price paid for our pleasure and we want to boil it down to technology and science. It's human life for Pete's sake! Not a just a problem or inconvenience. I don't say all that to point fingers or judge because I've been young an foolish in my life too but I would have always been willing to take responsibility if the situation ever arose. I'm not proud of my past nor am I naive enough to think that those things aren't going to happen. If we're "educating" our children about sexual matters, then we certainly should make them understand the possible consequences of being sexually active and take abortion out of the equation. I know there are times when a decision must be made if the mother and child will die because of the pregnancy, but to have wholesale abortion available only aggrevates the situation. No accountability. In some muslim countries where hands are cut off for stealing, there's not a lot of stealing going on. They know they will be held accountable for stealing. There's a price to pay. Wholesale abortion takes that accountability away; so what if you get pregnant, you can fix the "problem" with an abortion. Just my opinion and 2 cents worth.

I sure do agree with you here Sundays Man.

[TacheteTreasures]

I havent read past the first page so this may have been said, but my opinion is that even though I am agaisnt abortion, if it is illegal, people will find ways to do it at home, and people will die with unsafe methods.

[Buckpoco]

But the baby dies....

[rocknK]

Do you think they feel pain...................I hope not.....:cry:

[Whitedresswind]

Do you think they feel pain...................I hope not.....:cry:

sadly they do, I had to do some reports on abortion, and 20 weeks and over then can, sometimes its even intensified in premee's because of their newly developed nerve systems. :(

[mtnmollie]

Do you think they feel pain...................I hope not.....:cry:

Yes- some of them die a horrible death that takes hours.

Maybe we have gotten better at killing them now though?

over 50 million-

[APPYT]

......snip............. It's human life for Pete's sake! Not a just a problem or inconvenience..........snip........ Just my opinion and 2 cents worth.

Yep. Mine too.

[mtnmollie]

horse in utero-
colt in different stages in utero-

a baby in the womb ain't a baby- but a horse is? Weird?

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=981

[Horserider]

horse in utero-
colt in different stages in utero-

a baby in the womb ain't a baby- but a horse is? Weird?


A foal and a baby in the womb are the same. I don't believe in killing foals or babies (except for health reasons). In horses you knew and intentionally bred the mare. Unless the stud jumped out of its stall/pasture of its own accord and covered the mare than it was your responsibility. Even if the stud did cover the mare of its own accord than it's still the fault of the stud's owner because they #1 owned a stud and #2 stabled it near a mare improperly. In humans it's still your choice. You don't just spontaneously get pregnant. YOU had a CHOICE.

Who's to say you have a right to take a life??? Others would turn it around and say "who's to say you have the right to make the decision for the mother?"

Notice how pro-abortion people are called pro-choice and anti-abortion people are called pro-life? Because anti-life or pro-death and anti-choice don't sound right. If it was called pro-death would there be less people believing in it? Or if anti-abortion was called anti-choice would there be less anti-abortion people? Think about it.

[Sundays Man]

A foal and a baby in the womb are the same. I don't believe in killing foals or babies (except for health reasons). In horses you knew and intentionally bred the mare. Unless the stud jumped out of its stall/pasture of its own accord and covered the mare than it was your responsibility. Even if the stud did cover the mare of its own accord than it's still the fault of the stud's owner because they #1 owned a stud and #2 stabled it near a mare improperly. In humans it's still your choice. You don't just spontaneously get pregnant. YOU had a CHOICE.

Who's to say you have a right to take a life??? Others would turn it around and say "who's to say you have the right to make the decision for the mother?"

Notice how pro-abortion people are called pro-choice and anti-abortion people are called pro-life? Because anti-life or pro-death and anti-choice don't sound right. If it was called pro-death would there be less people believing in it? Or if anti-abortion was called anti-choice would there be less anti-abortion people? Think about it.

We have a way of taking ugly things and using attracitve verbiage to dress it up. It's all about perception. If you dress it up to sound more acceptable, more people will warm up to it. If you're the one "in the stirrups" it's a different story. Suddenly it's not as simple as "pro" or "anti" it's REALITY. And believe me, reality isn't always pretty and nice.:(

[GrungeEquestrian]

If you're so inclined that an abortion is murder, then you're murdering a foal. Taking a life is taking a life, human or not.

Then are you against hunting…as much as I am against slaughter and hunting and not using the meat animals are not people. It is not the same as murdering a person we have canines made to eat meat and that is what our bodies were intentionally made to digest along with greens.

God did not intend us to play his role and decide who can live and who dies. But it is not necessarily a religious truth but a moral and right one. The fetus is not a bunch of tissues but has a heart beat, it is a living thing and life has begun. It may not look exactly human but it is one. Either way this is murder, but I do agree even if abortion was illegal it would still happen. On the stance that women have the right. Women have the right to kill their unborn baby, but teenage girls are thrown in prison for killing their minutes old baby. Sounds very hypocritical to me, babies of full term and in the womb can feel pain and there has been research to support this.

I guess I wouldn’t be so personal attached to this issue if it wasn’t for the fact that my friend dealt with this. Her depression almost led to her suicide and it almost destroyed her. Not to mention when she went to Plan Parenthood she changed her mind, but they still sedated her and told her to shut up.

[mtnmollie]

Not to mention when she went to Plan Parenthood she changed her mind, but they still sedated her and told her to shut up.

That is so sad.

[mtnmollie]

I guess I wouldn’t be so personal attached to this issue if it wasn’t for the fact that my friend dealt with this. Her depression almost led to her suicide and it almost destroyed her.

How many abortions lead to suicide we will never know.

WE did a Search and Rescue on a suicide-
we have to be out there until they be found. No fun.

[twofingers]

well I've stayed out of this discussion as i am on both sides, there are sometimes where abortion is the correct option. however, I have never met a pro-life vegan and I do know some people who use abortion as birth control. Nor am I unfamiliar with killing another human being and what it can do to your head. we live in a country where we do not know or respect when life begins or ends nor whose choice it is to begin or end said life. but why is it that i can't kill a cow or horse ( no horse slaughter) to eat, but flush that little twat-waddle down the drain is my right? well I am about o launch into a diatribe so i will stop now.

[mtnmollie]

Big O said if we ever call that little beating heart ao child, it will end abortion,
leagally,
because of equal protection clause in the Constitution.

So pretend yah dont know what it is, or as Big O suggests say life begins at the end of
9 term at delivery; in the leagal world.

When does life begin, in the legal world?

Except how does that work for the moms who decided to keep pre- mies?
Some are born early and live.

Some are aborted and live; and grow into a live little child- and adult-

Like GiAnna.

Her mother recognised GiAnna as a teen- ager
but her daughter did not want to dance with a mom
who would slay her.

[Sundays Man]

Big O said if we ever call that little beating heart ao child, it will end abortion,
leagally,
because of equal protection clause in the Constitution.

So pretend yah dont know what it is, or as Big O suggests say life begins at the end of
9 term at delivery; in the leagal world.

When does life begin, in the legal world?

Except how does that work for the moms who decided to keep pre- mies?
Some are born early and live.

Some are aborted and live; and grow into a live little child- and adult-

Like GiAnna.

Her mother recognised GiAnna as a teen- ager
but her daughter did not want to dance with a mom
who would slay her.

It all boils down to convenience and wants. If a child is wanted by the mother and someone attacks her while pregnant and kills the child in the womb, that person will be tried for murder. Yet if that same mother, who should protect and love the child, decides that it's not convenient to have a child right now, she can kill it and no one cares in the legal system. I don't understand. I think both cases should be looked on as murder. Just MHO.

[Buckpoco]

Yes Sunday...that's what I wonder about. Sometimes it's murder and sometimes it's not???

[cowpuncher]

I'm glad it's legal. It should be each individual person's choice. No one should be allowed to make the choice of another person.


Acknowledging that I am not a woman, and some would say I should have no voice in this........

Rather an ironic statement you made their young lady.......Because in the case of abortion this is EXACTLY what is happening! The "mother" is making the choice for the baby that, "Hey, I'm not worth living anyway....."

I'm all about reducing the impact that government has on our lives in every feasible way we can, but let's face it, even under the constitution we are supposed to be protected. If liberals want to protect terrorist suspects in Gitmo (I was one of the people that called it Gitmo before it was in the news), using constitutional protections, for people who are not citizens, why not protect the citizens to be?

Because they do not want people to have to be responsible and accountable for their actions. Having an abortion is, I am informed, an absolutely traumatic event in a young woman's life. Wanna bet it has one hell of a lesser impact than the eighteen years of raising the kid?

Personal Responsibility is the American Way.

[APPYT]

Acknowledging that I am not a woman, and some would say I should have no voice in this........

Rather an ironic statement you made their young lady.......Because in the case of abortion this is EXACTLY what is happening! The "mother" is making the choice for the baby that, "Hey, I'm not worth living anyway....."

I'm all about reducing the impact that government has on our lives in every feasible way we can, but let's face it, even under the constitution we are supposed to be protected. If liberals want to protect terrorist suspects in Gitmo (I was one of the people that called it Gitmo before it was in the news), using constitutional protections, for people who are not citizens, why not protect the citizens to be?

Because they do not want people to have to be responsible and accountable for their actions. Having an abortion is, I am informed, an absolutely traumatic event in a young woman's life. Wanna bet it has one hell of a lesser impact than the eighteen years of raising the kid?

Personal Responsibility is the American Way.

High 5 Cowpuncher! IMO all Americans should have a voice in this subject.. It affects men as well as women, yet men are not allowed a voice. "BS!!!" Not to mention the impact it has on the unborn child.

[mtnmollie]

Men can not protect their childern in the womb.

They have no choice.

[missdixie]

Wow I can't believe this is still going :deadhorse: We can argue all we want, no one is going to change their minds on either side.

[Buckpoco]

I changed my mind many years ago. One mind changed is one life saved. It's important for that life...

[WashingtonBay]

Wow I can't believe this is still going :deadhorse: We can argue all we want, no one is going to change their minds on either side.

Not true at all. I've changed my mind a few times already over the period of my life. This issue is far from settled for a lot of people.

[cloedoll]

Heh, I'm surprised this is still going, too. Oh well, it keeps our brains workin'. =P

[rocknK]

If we're all thinking alike, somebody 'aint thinking.......

[cloedoll]

Who said we're thinking alike?...

[Buckpoco]

I'd hate to think that people are unable to learn, change and grow. Life is about change, and about growing in compassion for others. I know too many people who have indeed changed their minds about abortion.

[rocknK]

CD, thats just one of those old sayings that means that if you find yourself just going along with everyones opinions around you that maybe its time you started thinking for yourself. Kind of appropriate today.

[shagyaArab]

can anyone here tell me the difference between abortion and killing a 5yr old? there is no difference it's still a living being with a mind and soul. and it is a shame this is legal. i'm sure glad i wasn't aborted aren't you?