Religion and state are to remain seperate, right?

[mtnmollie]

spinoff from abortion thread.

Religion and state are to remain seperate, right? Your thoughts please.

[mlle_beau]

Yes, most definately.

[palomino]

Yep. I hate religion crammed down my throat. Ick.

[WashingtonBay]

Yes, they are to remain separate. There's a bit of disagreement what that means.

[cheval]

agree, keep it separate

[WashingtonBoy]

Yes, in the sense that government cannot dictate which religion a person must or cannot belong to. That's really all the first amendment says about... no established state religion, no prohibition on the exercise of religion.

[mtnmollie]

Yes, in the sense that government cannot dictate which religion a person must or cannot belong to. That's really all the first amendment says about... no established state religion, no prohibition on the exercise of religion.

Thats what I believe too.

Well stated IMO. :cowboy:

[mtnmollie]

Yes, in the sense that government cannot dictate which religion a person must or cannot belong to. That's really all the first amendment says about... no established state religion, no prohibition on the exercise of religion.

Does anyone know why this was done?

[Aina]

Ok, the state shall have no mandated religion. I agree with that.
However, I do believe people should vote according to their morals. Where do people get their morals? Parents, teachers, and religion.
We live in a common law country. That means the laws are supposedly made because the were already commonplace. Since most of the founders were christian, most laws come down to a moral code.

What can we say without morals?
Why is that wrong?
Because it hurts someone else.
Why is hurting someone else wrong?
Because Darwin said so? Because it is endangering their freedom.
Why should I care? It is extending my freedom.
Because if it hurts them it hurts you.
Bull. If I can get away with it it is good.

[mtnmollie]

Does anyone know why this was done?

This was done to limit the state- not the indivdual.

In Fox book of marters it is documented how state religon burned heretics.

Europe had state chruches- England had Anglican /Episcopal -Germany had Luthern - there was a catholic ccntroled state.

If you were in England and not of the church of England - you burned. Espically if you challenged the church for missing the Bible and following the doctrines of man.

So the Pilgrums and Puritans came with others to the New World. One of these reformers tried to change the Church of England (which had become corrupt) from within the other from without.

In America no one was going to be burned at the stake because of what you believed.
(This did not apply to non- humans- like Indians or the black man- for example. )

WE had white slaves in the beginning too.This is documented in ono of my old books- or it would have been lost ... somewhere in our distant past... with other things we have forgotten. :cowboy:

[twofingers]

which begs the question of gay marriage. If a state votes that it will be legal in their state can the state mandate that a church which believes it is an abomination be forced to marry them. the state mandating what your belief will be? this is of course already happening.

[Aina]

I don't believe marriage should be state mandated. I know their are tax benefits, I don't care. I think having it a state issue is mixing church and state.
I don't believe churches should have to marry anyone they don't want to. I know several churches that wont marry people for a variety of reasons. They should have that choice. The government coming in and saying they have to marry someone is wrong and does violate the separation of church and state.

[JackieB]

The government coming in and saying they have to marry someone is wrong and does violate the separation of church and state.

I'm confident that such a law does not exist. I'd be shocked if it did. Some states recognize gay marriage, but I can't imagine that they have legal authority to force a church to perform a ceremony. That would be a violation of the First Amendment. Could I get an example of a state and statute?

[rums_mom]

[QUOTE=mtnmollie;9426]

In America no one was going to be burned at the stake because of what you believed.
(This did not apply to non- humans- like Indians or the black man- for example. )

QUOTE]

And women? Back then women did not have "rights" so I guess it was OK to burn them or did the Salem witch trials never happen?

[mtnmollie]

which begs the question of gay marriage. If a state votes that it will be legal in their state can the state mandate that a church which believes it is an abomination be forced to marry them. the state mandating what your belief will be? this is of course already happening.

Well we have the constitution on the one hand 2.

And then we have the other rules on the other hand.

If you dont like the other rules you can go to court- and the judge decide.

Other rules which may infringe on C law abounds.
Gun control laws perhaps.

And the sheep rancher who shot the grizzly bear getting into his sheep at his home.
Known sheep killing bear.
He was fined $4,000, if I remember the Readers Digest article correctly.

In my gov't class I was taught we did have a C right ot defend our property.
Perhaps we once did? :cool:

[mtnmollie]

which begs the question of gay marriage. If a state votes that it will be legal in their state can the state mandate that a church which believes it is an abomination be forced to marry them. the state mandating what your belief will be? this is of course already happening.

Very good point 2.

But most people wont believe this because they do not know what is happening in America.

[mtnmollie]

And women? Back then women did not have "rights" so I guess it was OK to burn them or did the Salem witch trials never happen?

Laws on the books dont always apply in the field.

Like Holmeland Security - for example.
They have a lot of power. They can do what- ever they want. :(

[Aina]

I'm confident that such a law does not exist. I'd be shocked if it did. Some states recognize gay marriage, but I can't imagine that they have legal authority to force a church to perform a ceremony. That would be a violation of the First Amendment. Could I get an example of a state and statute?

I was replying to the post above me who said it was happening. If I read it right. Maybe I just skimmed and got it wrong though.

[mtnmollie]

oh look- I talk too much. I have to go to my room- sorry.

*time out*

[JackieB]

I was replying to the post above me who said it was happening. If I read it right. Maybe I just skimmed and got it wrong though.

I knew that it was a poster before you. And I think you read it right. But, I'm virtually positive that this person is mistaken. That would seem like a blatant infringement on First Amendment rights (to make a private church perform a ceremony that it disagreed with).

[rocknK]

JB, what about civil ceremonies if the officals have a different belief? Are they forced to perform a marriage that they are morally opposed to?

[mtnmollie]

What about the military chaplin who lost his job because he prayed in the name of Jesus?

Aren't Christians supposed to pray in the name of Jesus?

[Tatesgram]

Yes, in the sense that government cannot dictate which religion a person must or cannot belong to. That's really all the first amendment says about... no established state religion, no prohibition on the exercise of religion.

correct, the phrase "separation of church and state" isn't in the constitution. The first Amendment states "Congress shall make no law rspecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..."

I hate it when people throw that phrase around without understanding what it means :(

[twofingers]

if you think no laws exist prohibiting your free expression of your faith try praying in a pubic school, offer a prayer before a ball game. organize a parade for Christians to say, as they do in south America, and walk down the street with a statue of the virgin Mary. I am a native American and fully two thirds of my practices are against federal law, are you shocked? (rhetorical)

[TheBadLands]

I am for Gay marriage.. my mothers intend on it ;)

BUT.. even they disagree when it comes to a church being expected to perform the ceremony. It's not fair and, according to "their" beliefs (the church).. it's not right.

This is why we have justice of the peace...

And my mother by birth is the beneficiary to everything my mother not by birth has.. so even without marriage there are ways to go about doing things to protect your companion in the event one passes prematurely.

[Tatesgram]

if you think no laws exist prohibiting your free expression of your faith try praying in a pubic school, offer a prayer before a ball game. organize a parade for Christians to say, as they do in south America, and walk down the street with a statue of the virgin Mary. I am a native American and fully two thirds of my practices are against federal law, are you shocked? (rhetorical)

~sigh~ I know. My granddaugher went to a little bitty country school and when I went to a school program, I was shocked. They not only prayed, they read a passage from the Bible . There are people of different faiths in this school, but no one objected to the prayers or bible. We also said the pledge of allegiance. This is the way it was when I was in school. I loved it.

[Aina]

We talked about the bible in my school, and prayed... I was homeschooled.
Really, I think people are too sensitive about religion. My dad talks about his faith in a public university. Not like giving the plan of salvation or anything. More like "Today I read about this and it helped me in my walk..." because the classes always have a part about personal development. He says that if they don't like it than tough, if they are going to be sales people in the bible belt then they are going to get it anyways. He only gets flamed by about one person a year if that out of 180-200 kids. The rest love him. He has gotten nominated for best teacher 4 out of the last 5 years.

[cheval]

Aina when you say people get their morals from their religion - there are many religions. Religion of any kind needs to stay out of schools and governments. If people need religion there are specific places for that, but it shouldn't be included in areas where government is concerned because not every one follows the same religion and therefore each decision couldn't possibly fall in line with all religions.

Gay people don't have to get married in churches. Many do civil unions. Although there are some denominations that are very welcome of gay people and even have gay ministers.

[Aina]

Well, I don't believe religion should be *taught* in school because they screw everything else up, God forbid they get religion. Heck, I don't think there should be religious studies at a public university unless they have people of that faith teaching the religion.
I think the legislator should vote according to their beliefs and what the people who voted for them believe. In reality you have to vote for what the majority of the people consider "moral" if you are in the bible belt, better not go against the bible or you are out of there... if you are in California, not so much.

[mtnmollie]

I was subsuting at a local high school and there was no Bible to be found. The kids were playing government and had to have a Bible to sweare in on at the trial.

I had my Bible- they used that.

Two -I told Gene what you said about gay marriages and he said -
I am not surprised.

This happened in Russia. The law was there to protect the people,
but the police did as they pleased. Sergi comes to break up a bible study and they told him to go home and he did.

He got his *hinny* chewed back at the office. He did not let that happen a second time.

[rocknK]

What happened to "In God We Trust"???

[rums_mom]

Mollie.....you do not necessarily need a bible to be sworn in, you can "attest" in lieu of swearing in.

[rums_mom]

What happened to "In God We Trust"???


Here is a link about the history of that quote. IF this helps.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/nat_mott.htm

http://www.coinlink.com/Resources/coinage-acts-by-congress/history-of-in-god-we-trust-on-us-coinage/

http://asms.k12.ar.us/armem/martin/index.htm

[TheBadLands]

I was subsuting at a local high school and there was no Bible to be found. The kids were playing government and had to have a Bible to sweare in on at the trial.

I had my Bible- they used that.

Two -I told Gene what you said about gay marriages and he said -
I am not surprised.

This happened in Russia. The law was there to protect the people,
but the police did as they pleased. Sergi comes to break up a bible study and they told him to go home and he did.

He got his *hinny* chewed back at the office. He did not let that happen a second time.


Who are you talking to right now?

[rocknK]

RM, I wasn't referring to money.

[mtnmollie]

Who are you talking to right now?

My self- I always talk to my self...:cowboy:

on D boards I talk to everybody and nobody... :)

[mtnmollie]

Who are you talking to right now?

"Sergi comes to break up a bible study and they told him to go home and he did.

He got his *hinny* chewed back at the office. He did not let that happen a second time"

This is a cross post reference. Did that confuse you?
here

http://www.baywindfarm.com/forum/showthread.php?t=392

[mtnmollie]

Mollie.....you do not necessarily need a bible to be sworn in, you can "attest" in lieu of swearing in.

I tried to tell the kids they did not need a Bible- but they were
determined... :cowboy:

[mtnmollie]

What happened to "In God We Trust"???

What do you mean?

Its on our money but not in our heart?

[rocknK]

Can you trust your mechanic?? Can you trust your neighbor?? Can you trust your banker?? Can you trust your politican?? I hope you get the drift. Maybe I should change the motto to "In God I Trust".

[mtnmollie]

If I trusted in God Then I'd be nice, fair kind to my neighbor?

Did I get it right that time? :cowboy: